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How to break out of your social media echo chamber (1 Viewer)

Da Guru said:
If anyone has a realistic view of the audience here it would be the person who owns the forum.
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The owner of the forum has written in the past that he was a Bill James fan.  In the '84 Abstract (I think) is an essay on an outsider's perspective.  It is largely an essay on things that baseball insiders believe that because they can't see the forest from the trees.   That being too much on the insider causes a loss of perspective.  Not making an accusation nor going to offer up a case to support this, but I think a pretty strong case could be made from just the sighing post that it gives pause to your assertion.

 
Doug B said:
Not especially, not in the way you mean "balanced". Nevertheless, I stand my my "A vs B" post. I am not concerned with having equal numbers of posters on both sides of a debate. The quality of the ideas presented is what matters -- not the number of times ideas are repeated and co-signed.

If I am concerned with anything, it's simple availability of a range of opinions. And I'm concerned about that more at the individual thread level, and much less at the level of evaluating the entire forum. Posters -- as an aggregate -- in some threads do a great job of making a variety of cases from points along the entire spectrum. In other threads, posts devolve to dung-slinging in short order and quickly render concerns about "balance" moot.
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Cool. We'll just have to disagree there. I think it's "balanced" to the way a non covid year Saints crowd at the Superdome is "balanced" because they have a few Falcon fans yelling. That's not reality at all in my opinion. 

If anything, I think having the 15% on the "other" side might even be worse than not having any at all because you get an unrepresentative version of the 15%. It's people that by definition are the most committed and most vocal and most dug in. Not unlike the Falcons fans at the Super Dome. Sometimes you get the good ones. But you also weed out the average fans and get the most committed and those sometimes looking for opposition. They're not necessarily representative of the rest. 

I think the scariest thing this thread has shown me is how unwilling people are to acknowledge their bubble. I guess it's not that surprising when I think about it as privilege and bubbleness are often hard to see for the people that have it and are in it. But I will say I'm kind of surprised. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
If anything, I think having the 15% on the "other" side might even be worse than not having any at all because you get an unrepresentative version of the 15%. It's people that by definition are the most committed and most vocal and most dug in. Not unlike the Falcons fans at the Super Dome. Sometimes you get the good ones. But you also weed out the average fans and get the most committed and those sometimes looking for opposition. They're not necessarily representative of the rest. 
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Like I have said in the past it is shouting of nonsense by vocal Falcon fans that have sent the reasonable ones into the wood work.   (Sorry Dave, my first college roommate who was a loud Falcon fan, and rather conservative politically.)

 
Joe Bryant said:
Cool. We'll just have to disagree there. I think it's "balanced" to the way a non covid year Saints crowd at the Superdome is "balanced" because they have a few Falcon fans yelling. That's not reality at all in my opinion. 

If anything, I think having the 15% on the "other" side might even be worse than not having any at all because you get an unrepresentative version of the 15%. It's people that by definition are the most committed and most vocal and most dug in. Not unlike the Falcons fans at the Super Dome. Sometimes you get the good ones. But you also weed out the average fans and get the most committed and those sometimes looking for opposition. They're not necessarily representative of the rest. 

I think the scariest thing this thread has shown me is how unwilling people are to acknowledge their bubble. I guess it's not that surprising when I think about it as privilege and bubbleness are often hard to see for the people that have it and are in it. But I will say I'm kind of surprised. 
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most of the thread has been about this forum.  you seem determined to get a consensus that this forum is a bubble.  many just happen to disagree :shrug:

 
Joe Bryant said:
I can't think of many sources I'd trust less to get a balanced view than this forum.  As the owner, it's a failure on my part. 

And for sure, I don't think anyone is suggesting an Anti Trump echo chamber is the same as a Liberal echo chamber.

I think people are suggesting echo chambers in general are ungood. That's how I see it.
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Interesting, I’ve generally found this place to be pretty well reasoned relative to the other internet places where politics are discussed. The quality of the discussions have fallen off and there’s way more trolling than ever but that’s just America in general now. It’s not anything wrong you did imo.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Like I have said in the past it is shouting of nonsense by vocal Falcon fans that have sent the reasonable ones into the wood work.   (Sorry Dave, my first college roommate who was a loud Falcon fan, and rather conservative politically.)
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Agreed. I think this is a much bigger thing than many think. 

 
Tolstoy said:
most of the thread has been about this forum.  you seem determined to get a consensus that this forum is a bubble.  many just happen to disagree :shrug:
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Not determined at all. And zero desire to get a consensus on anything as there's no upside to that for me. I'm mostly just fascinated by some of the replies. 

 
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Bottomfeeder Sports said:
The owner of the forum has written in the past that he was a Bill James fan.  In the '84 Abstract (I think) is an essay on an outsider's perspective.  It is largely an essay on things that baseball insiders believe that because they can't see the forest from the trees.   That being too much on the insider causes a loss of perspective.  Not making an accusation nor going to offer up a case to support this, but I think a pretty strong case could be made from just the sighing post that it gives pause to your assertion.
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For sure. Forest for the trees is always a big concern. Fully agree there. 

 
Also interesting in the bubble talk is I swear this place was conservative leaning or at least pretty balanced during the Bush and early Obama years. It only really felt like a major shift happened around the 2nd Obama term. Then again, I considered myself more conservative than too so maybe that’s just being seen from my eyes.

 
Tolstoy said:
actually you said "scariest thing", which I thought was odd.
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Oh I do think it's scary for people. And myself. Mostly because of exactly what I'm talking about here. Bubble and privilege is difficult to see in yourself. And again, I'm talking about myself here too. Maybe mostly. 

It's a self awareness thing. And definitely scary. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Also interesting in the bubble talk is I swear this place was conservative leaning or at least pretty balanced during the Bush and early Obama years. It only really felt like a major shift happened around the 2nd Obama term. Then again, I considered myself more conservative than too so maybe that’s just being seen from my eyes.
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I don't ever remember it being conservative leaning. But definitely more centrist.

But we also have to remember the field has shifted somewhat.

From Time.com: "He also says, repeatedly, that he is against gay marriage. “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman."

That would be seen as pretty radical today.

That was Presidential Candidate Obama in 2008. 

To my discredit. we joked about Russian Bride Drafts. We had threads where grown men made lewd comments we had hide about young women on the internet. A lot has changed. And I'm glad for a lot of it. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I don't ever remember it being conservative leaning. But definitely more centrist.

But we also have to remember the field has shifted somewhat.

From Time.com: "He also says, repeatedly, that he is against gay marriage. “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman."

That would be seen as pretty radical today.

That was Presidential Candidate Obama in 2008. 

To my discredit. we joked about Russian Bride Drafts. We had threads where grown men made lewd comments we had hide about young women on the internet. A lot has changed. And I'm glad for a lot of it. 
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Good point. It is interesting to see the ways in which “we” have shifted on things. LGBTQ and other things you have cited have moved more liberal. Immigration and trade stances seem more conservative. The libertarian leaning right seems to have totally come and gone but perhaps gay marriage and legalized marijuana as accepted policies were a part of the legacy they left with much of conservative America. It really seems like a bit of a random mess how we have shifted around the last 20 years. 

 
@Joe Bryant (and @Da Guru, because he asked nicely) - This is a list I compiled of conservative posters.  Some are more active than others, obviously.  Some are certainly anti-Trump.  Some may claim they don't like Trump, but a pretty good chunk of this list are quite consistent about cheering Trump on and defending his every action.  I believe there are 59 names on this list.  It is not exhaustive, as I didn't go back months or anything.  I'm sure that some of these are aliases, but I have no way of ascertaining which.  Almost none of these names have voted in the new public poll posted today, although proving my earlier point, one did and voted "Radical left (anti-Trump)".

Andy Dufresne
BassNBrew
Bert
BladeRunner
Bogeys
Boston
Bronan
Cowboysfan8
cubd8
Da Guru
djmich
DocHolliday
Don't Noonan
DropKick
Football Jones
Ghost Rider
GoBirds
GROOT
HellToupee
I-ROK
IvanKaramazov
jerseydevil20
jm192
John Blutarsky
jon_mx
KChusker
KingPrawn
knowledge dropper
MAC_32
Manster
Megla
Mr. Anonymous
NightStalkers
nittanylion
Opie
parasaurolophus
Phil Elliott
pinkham13
Possum
quick-hands
Ramblin Wreck
rockaction
rwebb18
Sand
shader
shadrap
Shula-holic
Sneegor
spodog
Stealthycat
steeler6
Stoneworker
supermike80
T J
tjnc09
tonydead
top dog
TripItUp
Widbil83

EDIT to add: Commence arguing and adding names I forgot!

 
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Rich Conway said:
@Joe Bryant (and @Da Guru, because he asked) - This is a list I compiled of conservative posters.  Some are more active than others, obviously.  Some are certainly anti-Trump. 
Click to expand...
Thanks. Let's keep the goal posts consistent. The issue we've been talking about and what my polls reflected were how Anti Trump the board is. You said we had a lot of Pro Trump posters here.

but the pro-Trumpers still number in the dozens (plural).
Click to expand...
I asked you to list them.

Are you saying all those people on that list are ProTrump?

 
Joe Bryant said:
Rich Conway said:
@Joe Bryant (and @Da Guru, because he asked) - This is a list I compiled of conservative posters.  Some are more active than others, obviously.  Some are certainly anti-Trump. 
Click to expand...
Thanks. Let's keep the goal posts consistent. The issue we've been talking about and what my polls reflected were how Anti Trump the board is. You said we had a lot of Pro Trump posters here.

but the pro-Trumpers still number in the dozens (plural).
Click to expand...
I asked you to list them.

Are you saying all those people on that list are ProTrump?
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These are conflating two separate questions, the difference between "liberal echo chamber" and "anti-Trump echo chamber".  What I originally said was that I counted more than 40 "conservatives" and that the pro-Trump segment of that numbered in the dozens.  That list alone should disprove the notion that this forum is a "liberal echo chamber".

It'll take me a little more time to separate the pro-Trump group from the "conservative" group, time that I probably won't have today, but likely tomorrow evening if people can't easily pick out that there are 24+ pro-Trump posters on that list.

 
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Rich Conway said:
These are conflating two separate questions, the difference between "liberal echo chamber" and "anti-Trump echo chamber".  What I originally said was that I counted more than 40 "conservatives" and that the pro-Trump segment of that numbered in the dozens.  That list alone should disprove the notion that this forum is a "liberal echo chamber".

It'll take me a little more time to separate the pro-Trump group from the "conservative" group, time that I probably won't have today, but likely tomorrow evening if people can't easily pick out that there are 24+ pro-Trump posters on that list.
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Thanks. I specifically asked for your list of the Pro Trump posters per the quotes earlier. Everything I've posted about in the previous polls relates to Trump. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Thanks. Let's keep the goal posts consistent. The issue we've been talking about and what my polls reflected were how Anti Trump the board is. You said we had a lot of Pro Trump posters here.

I asked you to list them.

Are you saying all those people on that list are ProTrump?
Click to expand...
I think all but maybe 10 of them on that list are Pro- Trump. There are DEFINITELY at least 40+. I also see some names missing off the top of my head (Matuski, for example).

 
Rich Conway said:
@Joe Bryant (and @Da Guru, because he asked nicely) - This is a list I compiled of conservative posters.  Some are more active than others, obviously.  Some are certainly anti-Trump.  Some may claim they don't like Trump, but a pretty good chunk of this list are quite consistent about cheering Trump on and defending his every action.  I believe there are 59 names on this list.  It is not exhaustive, as I didn't go back months or anything.  I'm sure that some of these are aliases, but I have no way of ascertaining which.  Almost none of these names have voted in the new public poll posted today, although proving my earlier point, one did and voted "Radical left (anti-Trump)".

Andy Dufresne
BassNBrew
Bert
BladeRunner
Bogeys
Boston
Bronan
Cowboysfan8
cubd8
Da Guru
djmich
DocHolliday
Don't Noonan
DropKick
Football Jones
Ghost Rider
GoBirds
GROOT
HellToupee
I-ROK
IvanKaramazov
jerseydevil20
jm192
John Blutarsky
jon_mx
KChusker
KingPrawn
knowledge dropper
MAC_32
Manster
Megla
Mr. Anonymous
NightStalkers
nittanylion
Opie
parasaurolophus
Phil Elliott
pinkham13
Possum
quick-hands
Ramblin Wreck
rockaction
rwebb18
Sand
shader
shadrap
Shula-holic
Sneegor
spodog
Stealthycat
steeler6
Stoneworker
supermike80
T J
tjnc09
tonydead
top dog
TripItUp
Widbil83

EDIT to add: Commence arguing and adding names I forgot!
Click to expand...
A few more names:

Weebs210
bucksoh
Quez
Irish Eyes
JohnnyU
pantherclub
boots11234
kodycutter
tommyboy
Gopher State
 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
@Joe Bryant - Updated to be pro-Trump.  Frankly, I think I was pretty liberal (no pun intended) in removing certain names from the list of conservatives.  I did add a couple from gianmarco's list that I originally forgot.  I believe there are 39 names on this list, some more active than others.  Several of the names on this list will claim they aren't pro-Trump, but it's fairly obvious from the content of their posts that they are.

Bert
BladeRunner
Boston
Bronan
bucksoh
DocHolliday
Don't Noonan
Football Jones
GoBirds
GROOT
HellToupee
Irish Eyes
I-ROK
jerseydevil20
jm192
John Blutarsky
JohnnyU
jon_mx
KingPrawn
knowledge dropper
Manster
Megla
Opie
Phil Elliott
pinkham13
Quez
quick-hands
Ramblin Wreck
shader
shadrap
Shula-holic
Sneegor
Stealthycat
supermike80
T J
tjnc09
tonydead
TripItUp
Widbil83

 
Rich Conway said:
@Joe Bryant (and @Da Guru, because he asked nicely) - This is a list I compiled of conservative posters.  Some are more active than others, obviously.  Some are certainly anti-Trump.  Some may claim they don't like Trump, but a pretty good chunk of this list are quite consistent about cheering Trump on and defending his every action.  I believe there are 59 names on this list.  It is not exhaustive, as I didn't go back months or anything.  I'm sure that some of these are aliases, but I have no way of ascertaining which.  Almost none of these names have voted in the new public poll posted today, although proving my earlier point, one did and voted "Radical left (anti-Trump)".

Andy Dufresne
BassNBrew
Bert
BladeRunner
Bogeys
Boston
Bronan
Cowboysfan8
cubd8
Da Guru
djmich
DocHolliday
Don't Noonan
DropKick
Football Jones
Ghost Rider
GoBirds
GROOT
HellToupee
I-ROK
IvanKaramazov
jerseydevil20
jm192
John Blutarsky
jon_mx
KChusker
KingPrawn
knowledge dropper
MAC_32
Manster
Megla
Mr. Anonymous
NightStalkers
nittanylion
Opie
parasaurolophus
Phil Elliott
pinkham13
Possum
quick-hands
Ramblin Wreck
rockaction
rwebb18
Sand
shader
shadrap
Shula-holic
Sneegor
spodog
Stealthycat
steeler6
Stoneworker
supermike80
T J
tjnc09
tonydead
top dog
TripItUp
Widbil83

EDIT to add: Commence arguing and adding names I forgot!
Click to expand...
I have posted before I did not vote for Trump. In fact I hardly ever go into any Trump threads.

I did vote for "The woman from Michigan" for governor.

I am pro law enforcement .  Not for open borders but all for legal immigration. Do not like tariffs but glad Trump exposed China for what they really are. 

Do not like Trumps tax cuts. Think women should decide if they want an abortion. All for gay rights and gay marriage.

That basically makes me a person without a party. 

I like and hate some things about both parties.

 
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Rich Conway said:
@Joe Bryant (and @Da Guru, because he asked nicely) - This is a list I compiled of conservative posters.  Some are more active than others, obviously.  Some are certainly anti-Trump.  Some may claim they don't like Trump, but a pretty good chunk of this list are quite consistent about cheering Trump on and defending his every action.  I believe there are 59 names on this list.  It is not exhaustive, as I didn't go back months or anything.  I'm sure that some of these are aliases, but I have no way of ascertaining which.  Almost none of these names have voted in the new public poll posted today, although proving my earlier point, one did and voted "Radical left (anti-Trump)".

Andy Dufresne
BassNBrew
Bert
BladeRunner
Bogeys
Boston
Bronan
Cowboysfan8
cubd8
Da Guru
djmich
DocHolliday
Don't Noonan
DropKick
Football Jones
Ghost Rider
GoBirds
GROOT
HellToupee
I-ROK
IvanKaramazov
jerseydevil20
jm192
John Blutarsky
jon_mx
KChusker
KingPrawn
knowledge dropper
MAC_32
Manster
Megla
Mr. Anonymous
NightStalkers
nittanylion
Opie
parasaurolophus
Phil Elliott
pinkham13
Possum
quick-hands
Ramblin Wreck
rockaction
rwebb18
Sand
shader
shadrap
Shula-holic
Sneegor
spodog
Stealthycat
steeler6
Stoneworker
supermike80
T J
tjnc09
tonydead
top dog
TripItUp
Widbil83

EDIT to add: Commence arguing and adding names I forgot!
Click to expand...
:lmao:

 
Rich Conway said:
@Joe Bryant - Updated to be pro-Trump.  Frankly, I think I was pretty liberal (no pun intended) in removing certain names from the list of conservatives.  I did add a couple from gianmarco's list that I originally forgot.  I believe there are 39 names on this list, some more active than others.  Several of the names on this list will claim they aren't pro-Trump, but it's fairly obvious from the content of their posts that they are.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'll tag them and see if they have any qualm with being labeled as pro Trump.

 
I think you're going to have trouble compiling and passing off that list as anything but fraught with problems when it comes to individual categorization.

Personally, I announced my break with the American right in these forums. (Nobody cared, of course, but I got a few likes!) I would no longer consider myself a "conservative" by today's standards. I am a classical liberal, and when that puts me within the American right or "conservative" Republican movement then so be it. If it puts me with the liberals or Democrats, so be that as well.

 
rockaction said:
I think you're going to have trouble compiling and passing off that list as anything but fraught with problems when it comes to individual categorization.

Personally, I announced my break with the American right in these forums. (Nobody cared, of course, but I got a few likes!) I would no longer consider myself a "conservative" by today's standards. I am a classical liberal, and when that puts me within the American right or "conservative" Republican movement then so be it. If it puts me with the liberals or Democrats, so be that as well.
Click to expand...
Sorry, Rock. We thought you might say this. Apparently it's fairly obvious from the content of your posts that you are in fact a Trump Supporter. ;)  

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Sorry, Rock. We thought you might say this. Apparently it's fairly obvious from the content of your posts that you are in fact a Trump Supporter. ;)  
Click to expand...
Be fair here, Joe.  rockaction is not included on my list of pro-Trump.  He's what we typically think of as a conservative (not a 2020 Republican (capital R), but conservative (small c)).

And look, I know perfectly well that some of the people on that list will deny being Trump supporters.  One in particular has repeatedly proclaimed himself a radical progressive, but it's clearly untrue.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Sorry, Rock. We thought you might say this. Apparently it's fairly obvious from the content of your posts that you are in fact a Trump Supporter. ;)  
Click to expand...
I am glad you were able to get to the heart of it all and ignore any self-declarations to the contrary. :)

That's why we vote in secret, too. From the legions of us that throw off confused polling aggregators, we bid you all well. 

 
rockaction said:
I am glad you were able to get to the heart of it all and ignore any self-declarations to the contrary. :)

That's why we vote in secret, too. From the legions of us that throw off confused polling aggregators, we bid you all well. 
Click to expand...
Apparently that's clearly untrue. No use in denying it. They know... ;)  

 
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Rich Conway said:
Be fair here, Joe.  rockaction is not included on my list of pro-Trump.  He's what we typically think of as a conservative (not a 2020 Republican (capital R), but conservative (small c)).

And look, I know perfectly well that some of the people on that list will deny being Trump supporters.  One in particular has repeatedly proclaimed himself a radical progressive, but it's clearly untrue.
Click to expand...
I won't argue too much with your views on my politics, Rich. I think you're largely correct. I can't speak for Joe, but I think he was kidding with me and my need to declare yet again where I stand. But in joking, he does get to the matter that you assert that you can ascribe someone a position that they've declared not to be so. But forget that logistical problem for a moment so I can back up and not attack what seems to me to be an honest effort in census taking the forum's individual politics. What is the psychology of our politics today that we'd be motivated to lie or self-delude like that? And to have people understand and maybe say to themselves, "Yeah, I'd lie or self-delude like that." Implicit in publicly denying that you'd vote for someone (on either side or range of spectrum points) while planning to vote for them is the fear of approbation from those that disagree. There's something to this, this weird psychology of the completely personalized politics. Takes a better man than I to figure it out. 

Anyway, appreciate the list, Rich.

 
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This thread is taking a strange turn.

Either way, arguing about a couple names on a list of 40 doesn't get away from the fact that Rich was indeed correct that there are dozens (plural) of Trump supporters that post here.  It is 100%, positively, over 24 people from that list. Not understanding why some don't want to acknowledge he was right when asked to post the list.

 
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gianmarco said:
This thread is taking a strange turn.

Either way, arguing about a couple names on a list of 40 doesn't get away from the fact that Rich was indeed correct that there are dozens (plural) of Trump supporters that post here.  It is 100%, positively, over 24 people from that list. Not understanding why some don't want to acknowledge he was right when asked to post the list.
Click to expand...
Because he made a list and you say so? Impressive! :popcorn:

 
D_House said:
How is this adding to the discussion with Rich?
Click to expand...
It's my understanding it's not up for discussion. He apparently already knows what people think. :shrug:  

But, you're right, the much more important discussion is how to get outside your bubble. 

 
@gianmarco maybe you can get this back on track with your original, and very good question. How do you think we can break through our bubbles and echo chambers?

 
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Joe Bryant said:
@gianmarco maybe you can get this back on track with your original, and very good question. How do you think we can break through our bubbles and echo chambers?
Click to expand...
I'll take the defeatist role. We can't. Or more aptly, we won't. We could if the want-to were there, but it isn't. So we won't. 

 
MAC_32 said:
I'll take the defeatist role. We can't. Or more aptly, we won't. We could if the want-to were there, but it isn't. So we won't. 
Click to expand...
Don't give up @MAC_32  I don't disagree it's difficult. Echo Chambers and Bubbles and Privilege are comfortable. And hard to see sometimes in ourselves. But I think this is important. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
It's my understanding it's not up for discussion. He apparently already knows what people think. :shrug:  

But, you're right, the much more important discussion is how to get outside your bubble. 
Click to expand...
You're intentionally twisting my words, Joe.  When people have hundreds of posts, all of them defending Trump's worst actions and criticizing everything his opponents do, it's fair to categorize them as Trump supporters.

I think most people here consider me fair and honest.  I generally consider you fair and honest, but I think you have a real blind spot on this particular issue.  In truth, I'd love to understand why.

I know you respect Maurile.  I suspect if you asked him privately, he'd agree with me on virtually every one of the names.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Don't give up @MAC_32  I don't disagree it's difficult. Echo Chambers and Bubbles and Privilege are comfortable. And hard to see sometimes in ourselves. But I think this is important. 
Click to expand...
Until our actions are done in the right way for the right reasons and we hold those that don't accountable none of this matters. 

 
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