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The Election That Could Break America

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12 hours ago, mcintyre1 said:

 

 

 

12 hours ago, mcintyre1 said:

Question for any Trump folks hanging around:

If the election results say that Trump lost, and he refuses to accept that and works with state officials to override the results of their elections, is that a red line for you? How far are you willing to let our democracy slip, exactly?

red line for me.  

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14 hours ago, Shula-holic said:

Imagine this coming down to Pennsylvania and we have the situation currently going on there where lots of mail in ballots aren't complying with state law and being discarded.  It's also possible PA could do what the 2018 Arizona Senate race did with Sinema and McSally,  Trump could lead there on election night with the risk of late mail in ballots pulling Biden ahead.

I signed up to vote by mail in PA because I was worried about lack of volunteers, fewer polling places, long lines and other general voter suppression tricks.  Now I'm thinking I need to vote in person because Trump is going to try to invalidate my mail in vote.  I'm a registered independent but I think we just can't allow this "administration" to go on for another four years.

Edited by Lehigh98
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2 hours ago, jon_mx said:

No they don't.  

I dunno, I heard a lot of cheering when Donny was talking about how wonderful it was to see a journalist get roughed up.

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International observers should be brought in. It's always been common practice for countries with wide civil unrest, potential for widespread voter intimidation, deliberate disenfranchisement, potential for abuse of/refusal to transition power, etc...

Both sides should easily agree to this, right? Soothes Trump's fears of phantom votes and Democrats fears of votes not getting counted. The only reason I could see them not being allowed is the "image" that some still have of the United States and the fact that this might make them look like a Banana Republic but really, that ship has long sailed.

Edited by Northern Voice
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3 hours ago, jon_mx said:

No they don't.  

I think a strong case can be made for the Lincoln Republicans and many Republicans on this board to support your comment. Politically, they've gotten pretty much everything they've wanted from this administration...yet they still believe that the administration is wrong; be it morally or procedurally. 

I think though, at its base....the populistic vibe from Trumps Administration appeals to many people who believe that the ends justify the means; regardless of what or who has to be squashed to achieve it.

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48 minutes ago, Skoo said:

I dunno, I heard a lot of cheering when Donny was talking about how wonderful it was to see a journalist get roughed up.

:lol: i am sorry.  This thread had reach the point of just being silly.  

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22 minutes ago, jon_mx said:
1 hour ago, Skoo said:

I dunno, I heard a lot of cheering when Donny was talking about how wonderful it was to see a journalist get roughed up.

:lol: i am sorry.  This thread had reach the point of just being silly.  

Have you watched/listened to any of his rallies? The biggest cheers from the crowd come when he is talking about roughing up protestors/journalists, declaring democrat cities anarchists in need of federal policing, or whatever childish insult of the day he uetters towards liberals.

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22 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

As I've been saying for years, the Libs and Trump are two peas in a pod.  The end justifies the means.  Congrats?

And you'd be completely wrong. 

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Hilary and Biden and the DNC side saying they're assembling a massive legal team that will no concede the election and will fight hard until they find enough votes to win this election - maybe weeks, maybe months, who knows but the votes WILL materialize

amazing isn't it ?

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2 hours ago, jon_mx said:

:lol: i am sorry.  This thread had reach the point of just being silly.  

I mean I think it's crazy people would cheer that on as well, but cheering on violence against the press sounds like they're happily cheering on a dictator.

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38 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Hilary and Biden and the DNC side saying they're assembling a massive legal team that will no concede the election and will fight hard until they find enough votes to win this election - maybe weeks, maybe months, who knows but the votes WILL materialize

amazing isn't it ?

I wonder if it has anything to do with the sitting President saying the election will be rigged and he may not accept the results.

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This is not ok....

Just like voter fraud from the Dems is not ok...

I think both sides are at a place of win by any means necessary.

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On 9/23/2020 at 8:51 AM, Ramblin Wreck said:

As I've been saying for years, the Libs and Trump are two peas in a pod.  The end justifies the means.  Congrats?

^^^^^^this 1000%

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4 hours ago, Northern Voice said:

International observers should be brought in. It's always been common practice for countries with wide civil unrest, potential for widespread voter intimidation, deliberate disenfranchisement, potential for abuse of/refusal to transition power, etc...

Both sides should easily agree to this, right? Soothes Trump's fears of phantom votes and Democrats fears of votes not getting counted. The only reason I could see them not being allowed is the "image" that some still have of the United States and the fact that this might make them look like a Banana Republic but really, that ship has long sailed.

International as in Germany, Canada, or other traditional allies? No. International like Belarus, North Korea, and Russia? Bigly.

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59 minutes ago, Skoo said:

I wonder if it has anything to do with the sitting President saying the election will be rigged and he may not accept the results.

No. IIRC, Hillary was saying these sentiments leading up and during the DNC, and it was not due to election results. It was sparked from the consistent criticism from the Trump administration saying the the violence across the country needed to stop and the democrats were completely ignoring it and not acknowledging it. 

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Whole lot of hypothetical panic in here.  Simmer down, folks.

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6 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Whole lot of hypothetical panic in here.  Simmer down, folks.

Instead of passive-aggressive attempts at gaslighting, why not contribute a reasoned explanation as to why you believe that no state legislatures will bypass the popular vote to install their own set of partisan electors?

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10 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

Instead of passive-aggressive attempts at gaslighting, why not contribute a reasoned explanation as to why you believe that no state legislatures will bypass the popular vote to install their own set of partisan electors?

If they did, there would Governor-level vetos or, in the absence of governor opposition, any lawsuit filed at the state level by practically any credible attorney in the state would make its way up eventually to the SCOTUS. 

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22 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

Instead of passive-aggressive attempts at gaslighting, why not contribute a reasoned explanation as to why you believe that no state legislatures will bypass the popular vote to install their own set of partisan electors?

:mellow:

Because I think this is much ado about nothing.  Trump isn't going to try and steal the election or refuse to leave the White House or convince state delegates to vote contrary to their constituency.  None of that is going to happen, despite what dumb offhand comment the Doofus-in-Chief makes.  We are the United States of America and the President doesn't have that kind of power, which is exactly how it was designed.

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19 minutes ago, Shutout said:
31 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

Instead of passive-aggressive attempts at gaslighting, why not contribute a reasoned explanation as to why you believe that no state legislatures will bypass the popular vote to install their own set of partisan electors?

If they did, there would Governor-level vetos or, in the absence of governor opposition, any lawsuit filed at the state level by practically any credible attorney in the state would make its way up eventually to the SCOTUS. 

:rolleyes:

8 swing states have veto-proof majorities in their legislatures.

A lawsuit would be quickly struck down by SCOTUS, even without another pro-Trump justice. The Constitution clearly gives states the rights to bypass the popular vote.

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2 hours ago, Manster said:

This is not ok....

Just like voter fraud from the Dems is not ok...

I think both sides are at a place of win by any means necessary.

Which voter fraud is that?

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1 hour ago, Joe Summer said:

:rolleyes:

8 swing states have veto-proof majorities in their legislatures.

A lawsuit would be quickly struck down by SCOTUS, even without another pro-Trump justice. The Constitution clearly gives states the rights to bypass the popular vote.

If you are so sure the sky is falling then you may want to make sure you win that election I suppose.  If it were so clear it wouldn't be a discussion because it were so clear it would have been done before...but it hasn't been.  

And it hasn't been because in 1845, congress created a statute that prevents this very thing. https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e70e52c7c72720ed714313f/t/5f625c790cef066e940ea42d/1600281722253/State_Legislature_Paper.pdf

As per usual, this is just fluff. At worse, you guys just allowed Trump to troll you a little. 

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7 minutes ago, Shutout said:

If you are so sure the sky is falling then you may want to make sure you win that election I suppose.  If it were so clear it wouldn't be a discussion because it were so clear it would have been done before...but it hasn't been.  

And it hasn't been because in 1845, congress created a statute that prevents this very thing. https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e70e52c7c72720ed714313f/t/5f625c790cef066e940ea42d/1600281722253/State_Legislature_Paper.pdf

As per usual, this is just fluff. At worse, you guys just allowed Trump to troll you a little. 

Hayes-Tilden proved that the 1845 statute can be circumvented, and the Electoral Count Act Of 1877 contains numerous loopholes and vagaries. Plus, it's never been tested by SCOTUS.

Also, the article in your link seems to show that a legislature could bypass the popular vote as long as they appointed their electors by midnight on Election Day.

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Dan Rather:

There is no more time for silence. There is no more time for choosing party over country. There is no more time for weighing the lesser of two evils. All women and men of conscience must speak or they are complicit in America lurching towards a dangerous cliff of autocracy and chaos.

This is a moment of reckoning unlike any I have seen in my lifetime. I have seen this country in deep peril, as the hungry begged for sustenance during the Great Depression, as the Nazis marched across Europe and the Japanese across Asia, as missiles were moved into Cuba, as our political leaders were murdered, as a president ran a criminal conspiracy from the Oval Office, as planes were hijacked into skyscrapers. All of these were scary times, but through it all I never worried about a president actively undermining American democracy and inciting violence to do so - even Nixon, for all of his criminal activity.

What Donald Trump said today are the words of a dictator. To telegraph that he would consider becoming the first president in American history not to accept the peaceful transfer of power is not a throw-away line. It's not a joke. He doesn't joke. And it is not prospective. The words are already seeding a threat of violence and illegitimacy into our electoral process.

I suspect he is doing this because he feels he needs to. It is the same reason he sought dirt on Joe Biden, because he is deeply afraid of losing. Losing an election could mean losing in a court of law. It could mean prison time and ruin. But I suspect Trump's motives are more instinctual. He needs to hold on to power for the sake of power. He cannot lose, even if he has to cheat to win. Even if he has to blow up American democracy. He considers little if any about 200,000 plus deaths from COVID. Why would he care about our Constitution or Bill of Rights?

There is no sugarcoating the dangers and darkness we live in. But I remain heartened that the majority of Americans do not want this. Trump is in danger of losing states that he should be winning handily. Yes, his base is energized and numerous. But so is the opposition. I have seen opposition parties in foreign countries channel the morality of their causes to bring great change. And most of those opposition movements didn't have the strength, power, and resources of those who stand against Donald Trump.

Donald Trump has himself defined the stakes of the election. This is a battle for American democracy as we've known it. We are well past warning shots. Allies across the political spectrum are ringing alarm bells. Right now, all those seeking to defeat Donald Trump know winning a close election may not be enough. The size of a victory will likely matter. Failing that, what happens? I don't know. But I would say we all should try to remain steady. Try to conserve our energy for the battles ahead. Be committed to your community, your country, and your conscience. If enough Americans of decency and courage come together, the future of this nation can be better, fairer, and more just.

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If Trump does accept defeat and leaves office like a normal president, should anyone in the media face professional consequences for pushing conspiracy theories and stoking division? Or are we just going to memory hole all this?

Edited by Murph
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5 minutes ago, Murph said:

If Trump does accept defeat and leaves office like a normal president, should anyone in the media face professional consequences for pushing conspiracy theories and stoking division? Or are we just going to memory hole all this?

That would be like saying "Should @Murph face consequences for baselessly claiming that the media was pushing conspiracy theories?" :lol:

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1 hour ago, Murph said:

If Trump does accept defeat and leaves office like a normal president, should anyone in the media face professional consequences for pushing conspiracy theories and stoking division? Or are we just going to memory hole all this?

At every turn possible, the president himself has sided with this "conspiracy theory"

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The media should absolutely be punished for showing video of Trump talking. 

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1 hour ago, Murph said:

If Trump does accept defeat and leaves office like a normal president, should anyone in the media face professional consequences for pushing conspiracy theories and stoking division? Or are we just going to memory hole all this?

When you report on the president's words - it should not be pigeonholed as a "conspiracy theory".

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1 hour ago, gianmarco said:

Dan Rather:

There is no more time for silence. There is no more time for choosing party over country. There is no more time for weighing the lesser of two evils. All women and men of conscience must speak or they are complicit in America lurching towards a dangerous cliff of autocracy and chaos.

This is a moment of reckoning unlike any I have seen in my lifetime. I have seen this country in deep peril, as the hungry begged for sustenance during the Great Depression, as the Nazis marched across Europe and the Japanese across Asia, as missiles were moved into Cuba, as our political leaders were murdered, as a president ran a criminal conspiracy from the Oval Office, as planes were hijacked into skyscrapers. All of these were scary times, but through it all I never worried about a president actively undermining American democracy and inciting violence to do so - even Nixon, for all of his criminal activity.

What Donald Trump said today are the words of a dictator. To telegraph that he would consider becoming the first president in American history not to accept the peaceful transfer of power is not a throw-away line. It's not a joke. He doesn't joke. And it is not prospective. The words are already seeding a threat of violence and illegitimacy into our electoral process.

I suspect he is doing this because he feels he needs to. It is the same reason he sought dirt on Joe Biden, because he is deeply afraid of losing. Losing an election could mean losing in a court of law. It could mean prison time and ruin. But I suspect Trump's motives are more instinctual. He needs to hold on to power for the sake of power. He cannot lose, even if he has to cheat to win. Even if he has to blow up American democracy. He considers little if any about 200,000 plus deaths from COVID. Why would he care about our Constitution or Bill of Rights?

There is no sugarcoating the dangers and darkness we live in. But I remain heartened that the majority of Americans do not want this. Trump is in danger of losing states that he should be winning handily. Yes, his base is energized and numerous. But so is the opposition. I have seen opposition parties in foreign countries channel the morality of their causes to bring great change. And most of those opposition movements didn't have the strength, power, and resources of those who stand against Donald Trump.

Donald Trump has himself defined the stakes of the election. This is a battle for American democracy as we've known it. We are well past warning shots. Allies across the political spectrum are ringing alarm bells. Right now, all those seeking to defeat Donald Trump know winning a close election may not be enough. The size of a victory will likely matter. Failing that, what happens? I don't know. But I would say we all should try to remain steady. Try to conserve our energy for the battles ahead. Be committed to your community, your country, and your conscience. If enough Americans of decency and courage come together, the future of this nation can be better, fairer, and more just.

Rather really has become a drama king. Agree with some of the ideas here, but let's lay it on a bit less thick, eh Danny?

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3 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

Rather really has become a drama king. Agree with some of the ideas here, but let's lay it on a bit less thick, eh Danny?

Call me suspicious, but I think someone else runs the 88-yos social media platforms

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

Call me suspicious, but I think someone else runs the 88-yos social media platforms

Point taken. Still, it seems consistent with the Rather of the 2000s. The guy was pretty reserved when he was manning the CBS nightly news desk back in the day. Not so much anymore.

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If you can read the article linked in the OP and not recognize signs of paranoia and conspiratorial thinking then I don't know what to tell you.

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I don't understand. They asked Trump if he would hand over power and he went out of his way to not commit to doing it. 

Now it's a conspiracy theory? Or a whatabout discussion? How are people allowed to spin things like this in here. 

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4 minutes ago, Phil Elliott said:

This has to be the year for a 269-269 tie.

I mean, if 2020 has taught us anything...

Related, have we learned nothing from centuries of coin flips, rock-paper-scissors, and professional sports series?  When the game is "best of N", N has to be an odd number.  This isn't hard, people!

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3 hours ago, Phil Elliott said:

This has to be the year for a 269-269 tie.

There is a very realistic path for this. 

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3 hours ago, Phil Elliott said:

This has to be the year for a 269-269 tie.

I, for one, welcome President Trump and Vice President Harris.  It should be an interesting 4 years...

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15 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I, for one, welcome President Trump and Vice President Harris.  It should be an interesting 4 years...

Great rom-com potential here.  This needs to happen.

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Trump again says he may not abide by election results

Quote

...

Trump reaffirmed his views Thursday, saying on Fox News Radio that he would agree with a Supreme Court ruling that Biden won the election but that short of a court decision, the vote count would amount to "a horror show" because of fraudulent ballots. There is no evidence of widespread fraud.

Later Thursday, as he left the White House for a campaign rally in North Carolina, Trump reiterated to reporters, "We want to make sure the election is honest, and I'm not sure that it can be."

...

 

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11 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

That's not what he said.  He said he didn't think the election could be trusted, but once it is finalized, he will abide by it.

Again, this is a bunch of hand wringing about nothing.  He can't "steal" the election and he can't just refuse to quit being President if Biden wins.

I still don't know what everyone is all up in arms about.  He says stupid stuff questioning the validity on the voting process and is basically saying he will fight the results all the way to the Supreme Court if it is close.  That is not the same as saying he will not abide by election results.  The continued drumbeat that he is refusing to abide by results by the media is a false narrative and wreaks of biased reporting.

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15 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

I still don't know what everyone is all up in arms about.  He says stupid stuff questioning the validity on the voting process and is basically saying he will fight the results all the way to the Supreme Court if it is close.  That is not the same as saying he will not abide by election results. 

Look at your own words: "He will fight the results but that's not the same as saying he will not abide by the results".

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Just now, [scooter] said:

Look at your own words: "He will fight the results but that's not the same as saying he will not abide by the results".

Read ALL of the words: "all the way to the Supreme Court if it is close" as in only if it is relevant and will do so legally.  That is not the same as "will not abide by".

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

That's not what he said.  He said he didn't think the election could be trusted, but once it is finalized, he will abide by it.

Again, this is a bunch of hand wringing about nothing.  He can't "steal" the election and he can't just refuse to quit being President if Biden wins.

I still don't know what everyone is all up in arms about.  He says stupid stuff questioning the validity on the voting process and is basically saying he will fight the results all the way to the Supreme Court if it is close.  That is not the same as saying he will not abide by election results.  The continued drumbeat that he is refusing to abide by results by the media is a false narrative and wreaks of biased reporting.

At a bare minimum he’s potentially stoking massive unrest by his rabid fanbase by spreading lies and conspiracy theories and undermining the integrity of the election. And yes, despite the fact he tells dozens of provable lies every day, they believe him and the rest of elected GOP officials when they say these things. 

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Just now, McBokonon said:

At a bare minimum he’s potentially stoking massive unrest by his rabid fanbase by spreading lies and conspiracy theories and undermining the integrity of the election. And yes, despite the fact he tells dozens of provable lies every day, they believe him and the rest of elected GOP officials when they say these things. 

How is he undermining the integrity of the election?  He is questioning it, but he can't really undermine it.

And as for the rest of the elected GOP officials, they have unanimously stated that they will enforce the election as completed and that the democratic process will be upheld.

Look, I'm not Trump supporter, but this is just a bunch of fear mongering.  He can't do crap to rig, change, steal or otherwise undermine the election.

Like I told my cousin who irrationally freaked the hell out when Trump was elected, this is still the USA and there is still checks and balances and even the President isn't allowed to just do whatever he wants.

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Just now, Jayrod said:
4 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

Look at your own words: "He will fight the results but that's not the same as saying he will not abide by the results".

Read ALL of the words: "all the way to the Supreme Court if it is close" as in only if it is relevant and will do so legally.  That is not the same as "will not abide by".

It's a distinction without difference. If someone fights results, then they are not abiding by them.

Otherwise, you're just infinitely moving the goalposts, where every subsequent "result" gets redefined as merely a step in the process.

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I have confidence the Supreme Court would make the right decision unless it's an extremely, extremely close contest.

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Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump· 4h

RINO Governor Charlie Baker of Massachusetts is unsuccessfully trying to defend Mail In Ballots, when there is fraud being found all over the place. Just look at some of the recent races, or the Trump Ballots in Pennsylvania that were thrown into the garbage. Wrong Charlie!

 

 

Chris Hayes @chrislhayes · 13m

TL:DR the discarded Trump ballots were discarded because...Trump and GOP lawyers won a lawsuit requiring them to not be counted!!!

 

:lmao:  :lmao:

😢

How to steal an election:

1.  Sue to invalidate ballots

2.  Claim fraud when said ballots are not counted.

 

 

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