America summed up in one post. Screw everybody else what can I get out of it.
 I read his post as the opposite. I read it as he'd like it to be fair and the same for everyone. Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
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Biggest Fears of a Biden Presidency (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TripItUp
- Start date
 I read his post as the opposite. I read it as he'd like it to be fair and the same for everyone. 
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
What does “it” represent in “he’d like it to be fair and the same for everyone”?
rockaction
Footballguy
Damn ####### right it's un-American. I couldn't afford going to Northwestern Law because of finances (a top ten school at the time). I had spent my professional life and many man hours prepping for the LSAT to score and have my resume the way it was, and I had to go to UCONN, which sucks comparatively to N'Western, frankly. I chose the state tuition and grants. And I pieced it together when I could have easily been making 100-150,000 dollars a year right away in Chicago but couldn't have $200,000 in loans hanging over my head.
Or so I thought. Let's just have debt forgiveness for everyone who put off paying for another day, according to some. By executive order, no less, which basically means by fiat. It's ridiculous.
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Summer Wheat
Footballguy
You read correct.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Many of those young people are choosing colleges they can't afford and getting better degrees out of it. Those that made a more responsible decision have less to write-off but also don't have as nice of a degree. Forgiving student loans is bunk, IMO. Â
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
It’s the same issue with affirmative action, the ACA, and our national response to a pandemic. What’s in it for me?  Don’t tell me about addressing broad societal issues, I want to know why my neighbor is getting something I’m not getting. Â
rockaction
Footballguy
It's not selfish; it's an issue of fairness that the left should understand if it weren't so busy tripping over itself to hand taxpayer money out to some aggrieved class of people.
rockaction
Footballguy
And it's also potentially bad policy. It's another middle class transfer to the middle class which only loses in efficiency what it lacks in the nobility of its goal; namely to benefit a class already benefited by so much.
It's nothing like affirmative action, too. I just re-read that. That's so ridiculous that it beggars belief.
It's nothing like affirmative action, too. I just re-read that. That's so ridiculous that it beggars belief.
Capella
Footballguy
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Capella
Footballguy
How is the transfer middle class to middle class? It’s currently middle class to a corporation like Chase.Â
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, I didn't agree with those, either. It would seem that given our deficit and debt spending situation that taxes should have remained constant or have risen. We can't have so many unfunded programs. Colloquially put, because I don't completely understand currency and manipulation, it's like we've been just printing money that's backed by nothing. It's fiat currency. The only thing it has going for it is confidence in its value. As the unfunded mandates increase, so does the uncertainty that we're good for our debts. That's never a good thing and I don't care how many derivative traders one gets to say otherwise.
Capella
Footballguy
Yet they have no problem with gigantic corporate tax cuts or huge corporate tax holes. This country loves schlepping up to billionaires but looks down on their fellow common man getting any free shake because
 it’s not fair Â
rockaction
Footballguy
Education transfers, according to Stieglitz who I think broke this theory in economics, is that most wealth transfers that happen in our society are not rich to poor, or poor to rich, or middle to upper or anything like that, but especially education transfers are middle class transfers of wealth. Why is this bad? It's inefficient, first and foremost. Secondly, it puts a valuation on a societal goal that not everybody wants or should even strive for.
rockaction
Footballguy
OK Bernie.Yet they have no problem with gigantic corporate tax cuts or huge corporate tax holes. This country loves schlepping up to billionaires but looks down on their fellow common man getting any free shake because
(Not necessarily. I don't care for the super rich and the disgusting displays of wealth in times of inequality.)
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Capella
Footballguy
I’m hardly Bernie but there are certainly things that can be done in this country to help people out further. The fact we do so much for multi-billionaires and look down on our fellow middle class members is pathetic to me.Â
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't have any special reverence for billionaires. I don't know a lot of people who do. Those people are sort of suckers in a way.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I just want to see some sensible changes - let's start with term limits.GroveDiesel said:
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
There’s nothing wrong with being selfish. It drives almost everything we do. The point for me, particularly relating to tax policy, is the confusion when you ignore a trillion dollar tax cut that directly benefits a very few of the most wealthy, while crying bloody murder when the guy across the street gets a small break because that’s unfair.Â
rockaction
Footballguy
I disagree. I'm driven by nothing but the purest of altruism.
Seriously, though, nobody said that most folks were ignoring the trillion dollar tax cut. It wasn't a very popular tax cut, all things considered. It was almost cronyism, all things considered. The Republicans lined the pockets of the people who paid for them to be there. But disagreeing with a bailout for students isn't mutually exclusive from having concerns regarding other areas of the economy that aren't necessarily right wing.Â
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Extend free public education to include college. Allow interest free pausing of student loans for extended periods of time (maybe permanently). Implement a BIG.
WALA.
WALA.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
My reply had little to do with forgiving the loans. It is about how college loans need to be fundamentally different from other loans if they are part of a policy goal of creating a path for those where the only impediment to going to college is money. I've acknowledged that this goal could probably be achieved in other ways. I'm guessing that there are a few who disagree that this is a worthy goal at all - at least as far as the government involvement is concerned. But none of those things are part of my point.  That point being few are giving to be offering these loans otherwise, and those that are offered are going to be at paycheck loan interest rates.Ramblin Wreck said:
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I’m against the education loan forgiveness 100% but am not against an interest free solution.  I get it.  Student loans can be crippling.  But, you can’t hand out free money when the money isn’t free it has to come from somewhere. Â
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Full disclosure, the argument that I paid my loans, I'm personally still paying them, so why should anyone get theirs forgiven, is truly a non starter for me personally. I don't personally consider it a valid argument worthy of my time. But I understand that bias in me and so i try to specifically stay away from that part of this argument.Â
The part that I will debate is that student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy. There is no good policy reason that protects them at all and protecting them was an anticapitalist carve out for private schools and loans without anything more bedrock than that. The last revisions to the code were bad enough, but the student loan part is just ridiculous.Â
Make them dischargeable and you actually solve the policy problem behind them and free up people suffering under them in the way you free them from medical bills and consumer debt.Â
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I'm all for very low interest student loans and very much for lowering the price of public education.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I get it.  I’m not in favor of student loan debt “cancellation” as noted earlier. It’s just so obvious that something like this will never fly because of our inherent selfishness and obsession with what the other guy is getting.  Immigrants and minorities are stealing MY job that is MINE because I earned it. Someone else is getting healthcare that I’m paying for because they don’t have a job. I’m paying welfare and unemployment to lazy people who just sit home all day and steal my money. Conservatives are so much better at packaging their corporate welfare than liberals are at packaging theirs.Â
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Totally free college is a simplistic statement. Yes, we need engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.
What we really need are skilled laborers, electricians, plumbers, highly trained technical workers where a degree isn't necessary, and things like that. Free or almost no cost training for vocational industries would be much more beneficial long term to our stability as a nation then making sure everyone has a chance to take History of Cinema to fill out that general liberal arts education.Â
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
For this to work, the government would also have to stop guaranteeing the loans and stop owning the loans. As others have mentioned, the downside is that this would almost certainly have a negative effect on those with lower income being able to get loans for college.Â
Of course, I’m one that believes that well over 50% of college degrees are a tremendous waste of time and money and that 4 years or less of on the job experience would be much more valuable to both individuals and companies in the long run.
rockaction
Footballguy
What about that argument is invalid? If validity means that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises then I can easily show how it's valid. If soundness is what you're striving for, then that's another matter. But there's nothing invalid about holding a standard of fairness and accountability for loans taken out on or before "xx" date.
If we move towards a policy of future forgiveness and don't apply it retroactively, then there's a much better case to be made for it. But there's an inherent unfairness about somebody that has worked or invested in a path of life only to see similarly situated people able to shirk understood responsibility and get away with it. If that sounds like plaintive whining, perhaps it would do us good to remember Florence King's dictum of how morals and ethics happen: somebody says "that's not nice" or "that's not fair" and we civilize ourselves according to that edict.
And it truly isn't a fair system when you get some people making huge sacrifices while others at the same situation and time don't have to fulfill their obligations.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Yep - I thought about putting more behind free College but decided to leave it on its own.  I don’t have all the details but just like public school we should have some level of free college available to everyone.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I disagree on the government having to stop. Â
Beyond that, though, I also disagree that it would make college more expensive and harder for lower income kids. Because the loans are given so easily colleges are focused on the experience and not the education.... yes, generalizing, but I'm typing on my phone. What I've seen getting my oldest ready for university is all pretty bells and whistles wrapping up the same basic liberal arts nonsense for most schools. Â
The college university system in this country has become an entity we feed instead of use. It needs a little trimming. And with directed tax incentives, the government can still help low income kids get into school.
Again though.... college isn't the be all as you said..... I have 3 degrees. My mechanic makes more money than me. And good for him. I gladly pay him to do stuff I can't. Is funny, I live in an affluent area, but it's not all doctors and lawyers.... its electricians, boat mechanics and jobs like that.... the ones my parents thought we were too good for and that we should go to college to get away from.Â
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I'm not going to speak for @Yankee23Fanbut to me whether or not a policy is "fair" ultimately is irrelevant. There is no such thing as a policy change that doesn't create undeserved winners and losers of no fault of their own. While mitigating the damage to losers is a worthy goal, ultimately policy that ultimately create more benefits than it costs, create more winners than losers, etc. If forgiving college loans is the "fuel to jumpstart a roaring economy" which rises the tides for most everyone then the fact that I went to lesser schools, worked 60 hour weeks for 3 of my 4 years, long ago paid of my loans is not a consideration.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I'd be happy to go back and forth in a specific thread. But, making it too simplistic.... because I suffered everyone should, isn't an argument I find worthy at all for anything. It falls into the " this is the way its always been done, " school of thought that i would physically beat out of people and institutions of i could be given immunity from the crime.Â
rockaction
Footballguy
I allow that future forgiveness wouldn't be the worst thing ever necessarily. Allowing for changes in the system doesn't sound much like a "because I suffered..." line of argument. I don't agree with forgiveness arguments because I don't believe in another government program funding one's educational whims with another's labor. That said, you indicated it's a non-starter for you so I won't beat it to death.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Oh I get the educational whims part, I do. Â
Void of the loan piece though.... as a nation we are better the more educated the people are.... across all fields to be educated in, even i guess those liberal arts folks.Â
the rover
Footballguy
Forgiving medical debts (which would have to be done through a different type of approach than student loans) would probably be at least as good if not better for the economy, and it would benefit people that incurred debt through no fault of their own.  IIRC medical debts are the number one factor in personal bankruptcy.  I’d be much more in favor of this than forgiving student loans of people that made a conscious choice to incur voluntary debt.
the rover
Footballguy
Without liberal arts, I wouldn’t immediately think, “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.”
:don’tbanmeitsShakespeare:
:lawyerscantelllawyerjokes:
the rover
Footballguy
I don’t think he’s saying it sucked for him.  He made responsible choices and got a degree without debt, while others are struggling because they didn’t.  Want to fix long term student loan debt?  Stop encouraging everyone to go to college and get meaningless diplomas.  Start encouraging trade schools.  Cap tuition at state schools, particularly ridiculous out of state tuition charges.  Maybe encourage less people to run up debt, and encourage those that do to incur less debt.
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TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Or increase class sizes and lower tuition. I think the one silver lining to this entire pandemic is most people have finally figured out that there is no longer a need to attend college classes in person and even if there was, it's a wildly overpriced experience in most cases.Â
timschochet
Footballguy
This is the part I tend to disagree with. I get the unfairness part and there’s no good argument to be made about that. It IS fundamentally unfair.Â
Â
But as to this part I take the opposite view: I think it’s potentially good policy. I look at it in the form of a domestic Marshall Plan; I think it will give these folks money to spend on the economy. My assumption is that they will eagerly do what their parents did, and grandparents: buy homes. Actually, as I’ve suggested previously, we could help that along by, instead of relieving the debt, allow them to transfer it to a home purchase. Â
I think it would lead to an economic boom of gigantic proportions.Â
the rover
Footballguy
Compare that to a bail-out for people swimming in medical debt.  Same effect, right?  Or no, because they can’t afford houses?
the rover
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
Sure. Until everyone realizes that if we just wait long enough and say we can't pay our bills, the government will take care of it.
There are tons of people who worked extra, didn't buy new cars, iphones, etc. They didn't take vacations every year. They paid off debt to have more financial freedom.
There are people who pay the minimum on their student loans, get every new xbox, iphone, lease a new car every 2-3 years. Those people are going to get a 50,000$ gift. The first group is essentially losing 50,000$ by being financially responsible and paying off their debts. The right answer is just to wait for the government to take care of things. Â
Everything isn't expect to be one for one. There are social programs that tons of people don't have access to for this very reason. But to say "Sorry you didn't get the 50,000$ present. Other people are getting it. It's for the greater good so you should be happy. " You're spitting in their face.
Of course there are a ton of people in the middle. People who just can't make ends meet. But there are also thousands of college freshmen that get drunk every weekend and fail out after the first semester. Forgive me for not thinking we owe those people debt forgiveness.
jm192
Footballguy
Sure. Â
Wouldn't it be nice if the people that already made the mistake of paying off their student loans could put 50,000$ into the economy? Or say...on a house? Â
jm192
Footballguy
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the rover
Footballguy
You two aren’t talking about the same thing, and I don’t think Cap actually knows where the tax cuts went.  It was only to the top, not to the average business.  Most small businesses got screwed.  Corporate tax cuts doesn’t mean every corporation.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I’d be ok with doing both and then making college (some level) and healthcare free.
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