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How 'bout them Reds! (2 Viewers)

Been a rough couple months of base running blunders, sloppy fielding, and overall lack of urgency/aggressiveness. Twitter/facebook/talk radio was already rampant with "fire Dusty" talk before today's game. Going to be a long winter.

 
shuke said:
Been a rough couple months of base running blunders, sloppy fielding, and overall lack of urgency/aggressiveness. Twitter/facebook/talk radio was already rampant with "fire Dusty" talk before today's game. Going to be a long winter.
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I think my track record on here shows I'm an optimistic fan who supports Dusty. I don't think he survives it with his job. 3 playoff trips in his tenure and 3 complete implosions. Hard to view it any other way. He helped us a lot for a while, but its time guys.
 
Were Reds fans bothered by Cueto laughing and smiling in the dugout after he was pulled?

If an Oriole had just had a bad outing in a must win game and was shown on camera looking like, I would have been pissed.

 
avoiding injuries said:
Were Reds fans bothered by Cueto laughing and smiling in the dugout after he was pulled?

If an Oriole had just had a bad outing in a must win game and was shown on camera looking like, I would have been pissed.
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No different than the atmosphere all season. I think most of us just rolled our eyes. I have made this point other places, but I'll make it here too because I think it's relevant to your question.People don't realize it because we're the Reds, but if we were in a big market the 2013 Reds would have been the 2012 Red Sox. BP vs CTrent. Ludwick vs the fans. BP vs Vottos contract. In-house dispute whether Chapman should start or close. Getting in about 5 different beanball wars. Votto playing as angry as I've seen anyone on a baseball field every night. No leadership at all. The only energy we saw most of the year was all the drama and fighting.

Cueto can laugh and have fun all he wants and it wouldn't bother me for just that incident, but our clubhouse is crap IMHO and it was just an extension of that.

 
cheese said:
avoiding injuries said:
Were Reds fans bothered by Cueto laughing and smiling in the dugout after he was pulled?

If an Oriole had just had a bad outing in a must win game and was shown on camera looking like, I would have been pissed.
Click to expand...
No different than the atmosphere all season. I think most of us just rolled our eyes. I have made this point other places, but I'll make it here too because I think it's relevant to your question.People don't realize it because we're the Reds, but if we were in a big market the 2013 Reds would have been the 2012 Red Sox. BP vs CTrent. Ludwick vs the fans. BP vs Vottos contract. In-house dispute whether Chapman should start or close. Getting in about 5 different beanball wars. Votto playing as angry as I've seen anyone on a baseball field every night. No leadership at all. The only energy we saw most of the year was all the drama and fighting.

Cueto can laugh and have fun all he wants and it wouldn't bother me for just that incident, but our clubhouse is crap IMHO and it was just an extension of that.
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Well said.

This team needs quite a few things, but 1 of the major things they need is Leadership. It would be nice to get that from someone you are paying over $100 million to, but he certainly didn't provide it this year.

As far as Dusty goes, I'm probably in the minority here saying that they don't absolutely need to get rid of Dusty, but I do think it would be nice to get a change in the club house. It just seems like no one on the team was energetic and excited to be at that game last night, except for every single Pirates player. That can't happen in the biggest game of the season so far.

 
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cheese said:
shuke said:
Been a rough couple months of base running blunders, sloppy fielding, and overall lack of urgency/aggressiveness. Twitter/facebook/talk radio was already rampant with "fire Dusty" talk before today's game. Going to be a long winter.
Click to expand...
I think my track record on here shows I'm an optimistic fan who supports Dusty. I don't think he survives it with his job. 3 playoff trips in his tenure and 3 complete implosions. Hard to view it any other way. He helped us a lot for a while, but its time guys.
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Welp, legitimate thank you for several years of winning, but it's the right move.

 
PatriotJohn said:
Dusty Baker Fired.

I am expecting Bryan Price to be named manager. Seattle was hot after him.
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This was the ONLY move IMO.

The whole team was lifeless the entire season. No spark. No energy. They played like they thought the were entitled to the playoffs.

I hate the one game play-in and I told anyone who would listen that they didn't deserve to be in the playoffs. They promptly went and got their butts handed to them. Government shutdown means I wasn't able to watch the game, but it was probably better that way.

 
In house options are obvious...

Price - most likely

Riggleman - lots of people are putting him near the top, but not me. I think Bob C will aim higher

Bell or Deshields - long shots

Spitballing outsiders...

Brad Ausmus

Mark McGwire

Past winners who are looking...

Bob Brenly

Maybe Scoscia or even Mattingly if LA teams move on

Former players...

Joe Morgan lol

Barry Larkin

 
cheese said:
In house options are obvious...

Price - most likely

Riggleman - lots of people are putting him near the top, but not me. I think Bob C will aim higher

Bell or Deshields - long shots

Spitballing outsiders...

Brad Ausmus

Mark McGwire

Past winners who are looking...

Bob Brenly

Maybe Scoscia or even Mattingly if LA teams move on

Former players...

Joe Morgan lol

Barry Larkin
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Reds are on the hook for his $4mil salary. Would be surprised if they went outside.

 
Next mgr sould have a clause in his contact that calls for immediate termination if he puts Ludwick in the 2 hole.

 
The Reds just got more SABR. Yay. Now get Chapman starting and resign Choo and trade Bailey and a LTC for Latos.

 
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r0llin_game said:
Thoughts on the BP trade talk.
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For it

My official stance on the big topics...

Fine with Price, not a very exciting hire, but I think he'll be good.

For trading Phillips. Honestly, this one should depend a lot of what's going on behind the scene in the clubhouse (which I know nothing about). If he's an issue, he's not nearly good enough to justify it.

Would love to resign Choo

The more good pitching they can lock up the better

Don't want Bailey traded until at least July and most likely never

I would leave Chapman closing personally... if it's between him pitching exactly this well as closer and as SP, sure I'll take the more innings. I doubt that's the case though. I think he'd be a watered down version of himself starting. We'll see, would love to be wrong on this one.

 
Phillips contract isn't terrible but it could be an albatross on the tail end when he's 35-36.

Who is going to replace him at 2B? Henry Rodriguez is pretty terrible and can't be a serious option. Are the Reds talking about moving Hamilton back to the IF? If so, I think that would be a bad idea. Three positions in three years for any top prospect is ridiculous, especially one who has a questionable bat. Learning the pivot at a MLB level would be a risk to his legs, which is his meal ticket.

 
Eephus said:
Phillips contract isn't terrible but it could be an albatross on the tail end when he's 35-36.

Who is going to replace him at 2B? Henry Rodriguez is pretty terrible and can't be a serious option. Are the Reds talking about moving Hamilton back to the IF? If so, I think that would be a bad idea. Three positions in three years for any top prospect is ridiculous, especially one who has a questionable bat. Learning the pivot at a MLB level would be a risk to his legs, which is his meal ticket.
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No they aren't considering Hamilton at 2nd. I imagine they would be looking to trade BP for a MLB ready 2b. There is a possibility of moving Frazier over to 2nd and bringing in a 3b instead. Some people that I trust have warned me that he would be a disaster there, but I haven't seen much of it to know. Of course, none of this makes much sense from a baseball standpoint, which pretty much tells you that they're shopping him for "addition by subtraction in the clubhouse" reasons.

I don't think his contract is completely terrible, but the double standard about behavior isn't any secret. If you're really great, you can act like a fool all you want. If you're young and cheap, you can get away with a lot. If you're making 10M per season with an OPS of .700, best not to piss off the whole organization.

 
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cheese said:
Eephus said:
Phillips contract isn't terrible but it could be an albatross on the tail end when he's 35-36.

Who is going to replace him at 2B? Henry Rodriguez is pretty terrible and can't be a serious option. Are the Reds talking about moving Hamilton back to the IF? If so, I think that would be a bad idea. Three positions in three years for any top prospect is ridiculous, especially one who has a questionable bat. Learning the pivot at a MLB level would be a risk to his legs, which is his meal ticket.
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No they aren't considering Hamilton at 2nd. I imagine they would be looking to trade BP for a MLB ready 2b. There is a possibility of moving Frazier over to 2nd and bringing in a 3b instead. Some people that I trust have warned me that he would be a disaster there, but I haven't seen much of it to know. Of course, none of this makes much sense from a baseball standpoint, which pretty much tells you that they're shopping him for "addition by subtraction in the clubhouse" reasons.

I don't think his contract is completely terrible, but the double standard about behavior isn't any secret. If you're really great, you can act like a fool all you want. If you're young and cheap, you can get away with a lot. If you're making 10M per season with an OPS of .700, best not to piss off the whole organization.
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Jocketty is a smart guy. I have to think the organization has ulterior motives in floating these rumors. Dealing a key player when his trade value is at an ebb, and when the team has no apparent plan B makes little sense.

 
The biggest rumor I've seen was BP to ATL for Uggla and a top prospect. They were in on the Cuban kid, and I'm guessing if they would have made a bigger push if they were trying to trade BP, since this kid only plays 2B. Him signing with the Dodgers is the worst of both worlds, in terms of the value the Reds could have gotten from the Dodgers, and him being the best bet to replace BP.

If they do trade BP, it does give the Reds a good shot at resigning Choo, then moving him to LF in the 2015 season after Ludwick's contract. They'll definitely try and make another deal assuming they don't take on Uggla.

 
cheese said:
So many trade rumors. BP, Hanigan, Bailey

Is anyone going to stick around and play the 2014 season?
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What are you hearing? Seems Hanigan is a lock to be gone, and I'm sure they are heavily shopping BP. Things seem to be quiet, though.

 
shuke said:
cheese said:
So many trade rumors. BP, Hanigan, Bailey

Is anyone going to stick around and play the 2014 season?
Click to expand...
What are you hearing? Seems Hanigan is a lock to be gone, and I'm sure they are heavily shopping BP. Things seem to be quiet, though.
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I don't know any more than you do. Too much smoke about trading the same guys for something to not happen, but what that something is would be a total guess.

It seems like Price is leaning towards Chapman in the rotation and the Reds value the closer position, so I think the sleeper possibility is trading some of those guys for a closer. I will just throw out for the hell of it, BP, Bailey, and Hanigan for Kimbrel and Uggla (prob some level of prospect as well). All the trades anyone comes up with seem really fantasy baseball-ish including this one, but this is an unusual animal with a team trying to "win now" while trading off key members of their ML team.

 
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Eephus said:
cheese said:
Eephus said:
Phillips contract isn't terrible but it could be an albatross on the tail end when he's 35-36.

Who is going to replace him at 2B? Henry Rodriguez is pretty terrible and can't be a serious option. Are the Reds talking about moving Hamilton back to the IF? If so, I think that would be a bad idea. Three positions in three years for any top prospect is ridiculous, especially one who has a questionable bat. Learning the pivot at a MLB level would be a risk to his legs, which is his meal ticket.
Click to expand...
No they aren't considering Hamilton at 2nd. I imagine they would be looking to trade BP for a MLB ready 2b. There is a possibility of moving Frazier over to 2nd and bringing in a 3b instead. Some people that I trust have warned me that he would be a disaster there, but I haven't seen much of it to know. Of course, none of this makes much sense from a baseball standpoint, which pretty much tells you that they're shopping him for "addition by subtraction in the clubhouse" reasons.

I don't think his contract is completely terrible, but the double standard about behavior isn't any secret. If you're really great, you can act like a fool all you want. If you're young and cheap, you can get away with a lot. If you're making 10M per season with an OPS of .700, best not to piss off the whole organization.
Click to expand...
Jocketty is a smart guy. I have to think the organization has ulterior motives in floating these rumors. Dealing a key player when his trade value is at an ebb, and when the team has no apparent plan B makes little sense.
Click to expand...
re: plan B. The Reds signed Skip Schumaker.

 
cheese said:
Eephus said:
cheese said:
Eephus said:
Phillips contract isn't terrible but it could be an albatross on the tail end when he's 35-36.

Who is going to replace him at 2B? Henry Rodriguez is pretty terrible and can't be a serious option. Are the Reds talking about moving Hamilton back to the IF? If so, I think that would be a bad idea. Three positions in three years for any top prospect is ridiculous, especially one who has a questionable bat. Learning the pivot at a MLB level would be a risk to his legs, which is his meal ticket.
Click to expand...
No they aren't considering Hamilton at 2nd. I imagine they would be looking to trade BP for a MLB ready 2b. There is a possibility of moving Frazier over to 2nd and bringing in a 3b instead. Some people that I trust have warned me that he would be a disaster there, but I haven't seen much of it to know. Of course, none of this makes much sense from a baseball standpoint, which pretty much tells you that they're shopping him for "addition by subtraction in the clubhouse" reasons.

I don't think his contract is completely terrible, but the double standard about behavior isn't any secret. If you're really great, you can act like a fool all you want. If you're young and cheap, you can get away with a lot. If you're making 10M per season with an OPS of .700, best not to piss off the whole organization.
Click to expand...
Jocketty is a smart guy. I have to think the organization has ulterior motives in floating these rumors. Dealing a key player when his trade value is at an ebb, and when the team has no apparent plan B makes little sense.
Click to expand...
re: plan B. The Reds signed Skip Schumaker.
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Schumaker is a useful bench player but he's not an everyday 2B. He doesn't hit LHP and has a below average glove.

 
I didn't say he's a GOOD plan B, just that they have 1. As we stand today, I won't be surprised if he starts the majority of the games at 2b.

 
If the Reds end up trading BP somehow, I think they try to make a serious run at Choo. If they were ever to manage to sign Choo, then Billy gets moved to 2B and they start a lineup of something like Billy, Choo, Votto, Ludwick/Bruce, Bruce/Ludwick, Frazier, Meso/Cozart, Cozart/Meso, P

 
r0llin_game said:
If the Reds end up trading BP somehow, I think they try to make a serious run at Choo. If they were ever to manage to sign Choo, then Billy gets moved to 2B and they start a lineup of something like Billy, Choo, Votto, Ludwick/Bruce, Bruce/Ludwick, Frazier, Meso/Cozart, Cozart/Meso, P
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I would be completely fine with that result. No matter what they WANT to do, you can't possibly lose Phillips and Choo in the same offseason and get better at offense.

 
Taking my son to Redsfest this weekend. Interesting that BP is not on the confirmed list of players to be there.

 
r0llin_game said:
Hannigan is being dealt to Tampa. Possible third team involved. No clue on the return yet.
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Per redreporter.com:

It appears that David Holmberg, a LHP from the Arizona Diamondbacks organization, will be the sole piece coming to the Reds. In a three team deal, the Rays get Ryan Hanigan from the Reds and Heath Bell and some money from the Diamondbacks, while Arizona gets a minor-league pitcher from the Rays.

Holmberg, a former 2nd round draft pick from the Chicago White Sox, ended up in Arizona as part of the Edwin Jackson trade a few seasons ago. He's pitched effectively at Arizona's AA affiliate in the Southern League, and was rated as a Top 10 prospect in the Diamondbacks' farm system.
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Holmberg's minor league numbers paint him as a prototypical crafty lefty. His 2.75 ERA last year in the Southern League is impressive at first glance but his FIP was over 1.00 higher. He's pitched over 250 innings at the AA level averaging only 6.5 K/9, which may not be enough bat missing to get it done at higher levels.

His MLB expectations range from an effective back-of-the-rotation starter to a AAAA guy. If he can someday hold his own as a #4/#5 starter, the Reds could win this trade. His minor league splits don't suggest he's LOOGY material but a lot can change with 22 year olds.

 
Anyone else go to Redsfest last night? Barely anyone there (relative to recent years), and it was awesome.

My son got autographs from Votto, Cozart, Broxton, Heisey, Tom Browning, Mario Soto and some minor leaguers (Barnhart, N Soto, Partch).

 
So IF the Reds get Arroyo for another year, which pitcher do they try to trade and will they trade for a 2B or OF.

And if they go looking for an OFer do you think they need one who hits for power or avg?

Or do they make a big move and trade Phillips and a pitcher for a super star that can do both?

 
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On The Rocks said:
So IF the Reds get Arroyo for another year, which pitcher do they try to trade and will they trade for a 2B or OF.

And if they go looking for an OFer do you think they need one who hits for power or avg?

Or do they make a big move and trade Phillips and a pitcher for a super star that can do both?
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Have to figure they're shopping Bailey, regardless if they sign Arroyo.

 
Is it worrying anybody else that the Reds aren't doing much of anything this off season?

They didn't exactly end 2013 with a bang, and they are losing pivotal pieces to last years team (Choo, Arroyo?).

As of now, for this team to contend, we have to have Hamilton, Ludwick and Frazier all step up in big ways, along with normal production from our core players.

 
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