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moleculo

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Everything posted by moleculo

  1. I can't remember at any time that I ever thought that Hines Ward was the best WR in the league. I can't even remember thinking that he was ever a top 5. Hines Ward was never named to a single All-Pro team. I guess twice he was top 5 in receptions, once in yards, and three times in TD's. His best year was 2002: second most receptions, fourth most yards, and second TD's. That's pretty good, but certainly not HoF. There are going to be lots of great WR's eligible soon, I think it will be really tough for Ward to beat out Harrison, Owens, Moss, Holt, etc...not to mention Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Calvin Johnson, Wes Welker, Reggie Wayne, etc.
  2. I have taken the same approach all season, I wanted to see a good sampling of games to see where Tebow is. We've got that now, and your assessment is spot on with mine.I agree with you that the mechanics are overblown. However, your second paragraph, which is also accurate, summarizes exactly why I don't think it's worth the effort. Those things that come with practice and work with coaches is something that many QB's at the college level already do, with a certain degree of competency I might add. Yes, most college QB's come in and struggle with some reads and need to adjust to the speed of the game. But they have a much stronger foundation to build on. They don't trust him to throw timing routes... I don't think any QB, regardless of "intangibles" is worth trying to build that from the ground up.I would love him to invalidate all of this and morph into a relaxed passing QB, timing routes and all, but I remain skeptical.I also question if Tebow himself has it in him to dedicate himself fully to building it up. I know - he is the hardest worker out there, yada yada yada. He also runs lots of charities and spends lots of time in the Phillipines - which is all well and good, but doesn't help him build up his game... not to mention writing an autobiography and then hitting the talk show circuit promoting it.Football isn't the most important thing in Tebows life, and it never will be. As a person, that's great for him. As QB of my favorite team, I'm selfishly not all that thrilled that football comes second.
  3. I have to admit this made me laugh.I don't mind someone forming a counter argument to something they are passionate about. In fantasy football you can become very passionate for or against a player or team, but FavreCo is not doing a very good job of formulating good arguments to prove his dislike of Tebow. Everyone knows Tebow has a ways to go to be an effective starter in this league. Tebow is a unique player with a unique skill set and no one including Denver themselves know if his skill set can work for the long run. So FavreCo continuouslly calling him out by comparing him to Carr, and Young and saying he sucks is not a valid argument against Tebow. In all seriousness, regardless of which side of the argument he's on, it's probably been one of the worst string of posts I've ever seen here in the pool. It's pretty patently obvious that he's just trolling right down to the definition of the word, giving nothing but offhand remarks with no intent other than to get a rise out of schnikies.I've been here a long time and never really noticed him before (which isn't suprising at this point, as it doesn't look like he has it in him to make any kind of worthwhile argument that people would remember), but I'm actually impressed that he's found a way to make it this long without being banned. Before I zip tie this thread and archive it, I need to bump some of these classics. Where are these 3 guys at? On a milk carton?I am not going anywhere.You have been missing my message to you apparently. I am still not sold on Tebow long term. I never have been. I have remained the same since when I first started posting in this thread. I have continuouslly said Tebow is a work in progress. He has the talent and skill level to make it but whether or not he continues to improve enough to be the long term answer is the huge question mark. I have said he needs to be able to pass more consistently which I think he could with proper coaching and continued work if he wants to be a long term starter in the NFL. Tebow has played poorly the past month. He has looked dreadful in other games even when they were winning. But the fact is he is a young QB learning on the fly and having varied success. I still would not bet against Tebow continuing to grow into a starter for an NFL team going forward. I would also not bet on Tebow fizzing out and becoming a career back up. You have made you mind up about him and taken a strong stance. I on the other hand am taking a more conservative wait and see approach. I think you can stop waiting. Might as well give him the same lattitude you'd give any other young QB with known defficiencies: a full off-season w/ coaching staff to see if there can be any improvement.I would agree if he were close. Young QB with good mechanics, accuracy, quick release etc. who just needs to get to speed with the playbook yes. One that has very few QB traits no.From what i've seen this year, the mechanics issue is overblown. They have actually gotten progressively better and IMO his accuracy is much better than it was earlier. The stat line does't show it because it doesn't account for throw-aways or passes placed where no one can get it, but if anyone could, it would be the receiver. Or drops. The problem over the last few games is decisiveness and willingness to pull the trigger. He's playing scared - afraid to make a throw to a WR who only has one step on his man. He's not reading D's, he isn't trusted to audible. He's not seeing the whole field, and he's not throwing any timing routes. These are things that come with practice and work w/ the coaching staff.
  4. For two of those wins, Tebow was a goal line/short yardage specialist, not the starting QB.Actually that would probably be a good way for the Broncos to use him, now that I think about it. Many teams employ a goal line back who isn't nearly skilled enough to play the position the rest of the game, no reason you can't do that with a QB too. You know, as long as you wasted a first round pick and a bunch of money on him already.You know that can never happen, right?Yeah, I know. You'd have to make him the backup, too for roster purposes. Not worth the risk of actually having to play him if your starter goes down.That's not why. It's because Tebowites are so irrational they will make life hell for the starting QB and coach...doing things like putting up billboards, chanting for him after every incomplete pass, etc. It would place an undue amount of pressure on whomever is starting, outside of Brady/Brees/Manning.Regardless of his actual skills, Tebow cannot co-exist with a legit starting QB.
  5. For two of those wins, Tebow was a goal line/short yardage specialist, not the starting QB.Actually that would probably be a good way for the Broncos to use him, now that I think about it. Many teams employ a goal line back who isn't nearly skilled enough to play the position the rest of the game, no reason you can't do that with a QB too. You know, as long as you wasted a first round pick and a bunch of money on him already.You know that can never happen, right?
  6. I have to admit this made me laugh.I don't mind someone forming a counter argument to something they are passionate about. In fantasy football you can become very passionate for or against a player or team, but FavreCo is not doing a very good job of formulating good arguments to prove his dislike of Tebow. Everyone knows Tebow has a ways to go to be an effective starter in this league. Tebow is a unique player with a unique skill set and no one including Denver themselves know if his skill set can work for the long run. So FavreCo continuouslly calling him out by comparing him to Carr, and Young and saying he sucks is not a valid argument against Tebow. In all seriousness, regardless of which side of the argument he's on, it's probably been one of the worst string of posts I've ever seen here in the pool. It's pretty patently obvious that he's just trolling right down to the definition of the word, giving nothing but offhand remarks with no intent other than to get a rise out of schnikies.I've been here a long time and never really noticed him before (which isn't suprising at this point, as it doesn't look like he has it in him to make any kind of worthwhile argument that people would remember), but I'm actually impressed that he's found a way to make it this long without being banned. Before I zip tie this thread and archive it, I need to bump some of these classics. Where are these 3 guys at? On a milk carton?I am not going anywhere.You have been missing my message to you apparently. I am still not sold on Tebow long term. I never have been. I have remained the same since when I first started posting in this thread. I have continuouslly said Tebow is a work in progress. He has the talent and skill level to make it but whether or not he continues to improve enough to be the long term answer is the huge question mark. I have said he needs to be able to pass more consistently which I think he could with proper coaching and continued work if he wants to be a long term starter in the NFL. Tebow has played poorly the past month. He has looked dreadful in other games even when they were winning. But the fact is he is a young QB learning on the fly and having varied success. I still would not bet against Tebow continuing to grow into a starter for an NFL team going forward. I would also not bet on Tebow fizzing out and becoming a career back up. You have made you mind up about him and taken a strong stance. I on the other hand am taking a more conservative wait and see approach. I think you can stop waiting. Might as well give him the same lattitude you'd give any other young QB with known defficiencies: a full off-season w/ coaching staff to see if there can be any improvement.
  7. Tebow has done more damage than good with his miracle wins. He has cheated the Broncos out of a franchise QB. They were well on their way to position themselves for Luck and along comes the haphazrd Tebow and ruins everything. The only chance the Bronco's have is to play next year for the future. Trade or put Tebow on the bench, Start Quinn, lose as many games as they can, and draft Barkley. Way to go TebowThey weren't getting Luck regardless. they were 1-4 w/ Orton at the helm and probably would have won a few more. No way would they have finished 2-14. RGIII could have been a possibility, but those are the only potential franchise QB I'm aware of coming out in 2012.
  8. Clayton: Jags like Broncos' OC part of a package deal to move Tebow to JAX?
  9. Not really. Read option stuff is a few select plays, rest of Broncos O is the same that they ran w/ Orton. It's a matter of run/pass balance and calling plays tailored for the personnel on the field, same as any other team.It's not like Tebow requires a completely new playbook.
  10. Here's the Tebow problem in a nutshell: Right now, he's not good enough to be a consistently good NFL QB, but the Tebowites are loud and irrational. Tebow cannot be a back-up QB; the fans would have none of it and there would be a full-scale revolt. There is a place for a player of Tebow's caliber and current skill-set in the NFL. Here's what he should be: back-up QB and set play specialist. He could come in for a series or two and run the read option. He would be an excellent red-zone QB. Coming in off of the bench, the emotion and leadership he brings would up-lift the entire team. As a back-up QB who was called on to keep things in check, we would be more than adequate. If Tebow does not progress as a thrower and a QB this off-season, this is what I think Tebow could be, and it would be an extremely valuable component to a dominant offense. That won't happen though. The only way for the Tebowites to settle down is for Tebow to sustain nearly a full season of failure. He's going to be given every chance to succeed in 2012, and I think he's earned it. He's going to have a relatively long leash as well, in order to avoid a full fan revolt, it will need to be painfully obvious to 95% of the football watching population that he cannot succeed. IMO, that's the only way for Tebow to settle into the above role. Problem is, even as poor as Tebow plays right now, he's good enough to lead an average team. IMO, he's good enough to beat bad teams but bad enough to lose to good teams. So, he's average at best. I think Tebow, coupled with an averageish defense, is good enough for an 8-8 consistent record. Outside of the AFC west, that isn't good enough to get into the playoffs consistently. There is hope that he can improve, and then this all goes away. He has never had an off-season (signed just before camp in 2010, no off-season in 2011). He has been through three head coaches. For a player that was widely accepted as deficient, Tebow has had some remarkable obstacles in his development. It's not like he got to sit behind Brett Favre for three years with a consistent coaching staff before being handed the reigns. I think someone should be brought in to challenge Tebow in 2012, but I don't think any free-agent would really want to subject himself to the Tebow circus. It's going to be an interesting season.
  11. I don't think we have any idea what he is...not really. We know he struggles with accuracy. We know that he takes too long to make a read. We know that he is a very good runner, and that really pressures the defense. We still don't have full confidence that he can be the guy.A big part of peoples opinions on Tebow is faith. I'm not talking about the religious bit, i'm talking about faith that he can improve. 2011 Tebow is not good enough of a thrower to QB in this league, i don't think many would argue that. That said, Tebow has everything else you might ever want in a QB, plus a good set of wheels. I hear stories of a legendary work ethic, and that gives me faith that he can improve. FavreCo, conversely, does not have faith that he will get better. At this point, IMO it's about potential that has been flashed a few times this year, but that's really what it's about for all first year starting QB's.
  12. Just stop it. Please. As a Broncos fan, I'm asking. We have no defense here. As long as there are no Raiders, Cheifs or Chargers making fun of us - then we deserve it. We took a chance on Tebow this season. He didn't "lead" us anywhere. He contributed some big plays along with the rest of the team to get us to the division title... barely. I'll take it because when we look back historically it'll just show up as another division title for my Broncos. But the way we got it is there for all to see this year. Maybe years down the line I can color this as something that it's not because time blurs facts - but not right now. Everyone saw how we got in.Our QB is not looking good. We are going to take our lumps. I've said earlier in this thread that I'm not a fan of everything that FarveCo says (or the way he says it) but I'll be damned if he's isn't more right than those who are defending Tebow. When you're team is playing like this then expect to take some flak - and us Broncos fan are taking some right now. If you are a "Tebow guy" then you need to take off the blinders. Look at why the Broncos won earlier in the year, how they won and who they beat during that winning streak. Look at it objectively and maybe then you'll stop the silly comments. If you are a Broncos fan, not just a Tebow fan, then you are probably in the same boat I am right now - sad that Tebow has regressed lately, sad that our D isn't *quite* as good as we thought (but still pretty good as shown today) and finally that our QB situation is just as muddled (if not more) than it ever was. As a Broncos fan my plan is to talk to the same guy Tebow's been talking to and hope that the Steelers play bad and we control the clock and pull out a miracle win. It would be a nice cap on a crazy, crazy season. You want a real question, Amos? Revise it a little bit to read like this: "Anyone got a list of QBs that took their team to a division title within 2 years while looking this bad?" /signed "A bitter, but realistic, Broncos fan" Cosigned.
  13. Tebow looked as bad as favreco says he is. Worst game as a pro, by far. Elway now has political cover to bring in QB competition, IMO.
  14. Tebow ended up in the right hands and will be a stud for years. I feel like it's just become the popular thing to say: "He's not an NFL quarterback". They'll be a lot of crow eating and I'm pretty sure it won't be happening in this thread. Tebow's got winner written all over him. Denver has a bright future.welcome back, finless.
  15. Bill Maher is a bigot, unfortunately there is an audience out there who applauds that kind of thing.Look I understand there are a lot of bad Christians, I get that most of their organizations have some terrible hate filled ideas. But guys like Maher are just as bad and doing exactly the same thing.They just don't understand I don't think.most Christian organizations have terrible hate filled ideas?
  16. No, not really. If you are willing to give TT the benefit of the doubt for being young, inexperienced, etc...why not Decker? Earlier in the year he was making plays and those plays weren't due strictly to the volume of passes that came his way. He was the most reliable WR on the rooster up until the past month or so.If he didn't close his eyes and squint every time he was about to catch a ball and take a hit, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't have heart and heart isn't something you teach. He shies away from contact and that's not something that usually changes unless you're a character in "Jerry Maguire".Alright somebody has to say it. You are uncomfortablly in love with Tebow therefore bias and your opinion and point of view are worthless. You pretend you know the game of football but everytime you post you prove otherwise. TIM TEBOW SUCKS AS A NFL QUARTERBACK. You can blame the coaches, wide receivers, John Elway, the media or whoever the hell you like but the fact is TIM TEBOW SUCKS AS AN NFL QUARTERBACK.Outstanding analysis. Insightful comments like this are what makes this such a great forum. I'm especially a big fan of how you use subtlety to make your point, not to mention facts to back yourself up.
  17. I think that if Tebow has a multi-turnover game this week vs KC and Denver misses the playoffs, his position as QB1 next year will not be secure. Elway will have cover to bring in legit competition. Should Tebow take care of the ball and usher Denver into the playoffs, his role for 2011 will be secure...at as secure as anyone not named Brees or Rodgers will be. IMO, this game will be the referendum and public perception of Tebow's future will weigh heavily on this one game. This will be the most important game of his pro career; it will be interesting to see how he responds.
  18. I'm curious why when we discuss Tebow Completion Percentage is the most important QB statistic?Shouldn't QB Rating be more important?Shouldn't YPA be as important if not more?What about TD/INTs?Total Yds?I have fun watching Tebow, can't say I think he'll be a starter in 5 years. But I think he'll most likely start next season. He's still young so I don't think we really know if he has the chops to be a good QB or not. But I have no idea why Completion percentage became such an important stat. It's like looking at a baseball player and ignoring batting average, HRs, OBP and saying look at his strikeouts per 100 at bats and acting like that's suddenly the only way to measure performance.I'm not saying your wrong that one stat hardly tells the tale, but it's not like the other stats serve in support of Tebow either:*** He's 25th in passer rating this year (BUT, is higher than Freeman, McCoy, Ponder, Bradford, Skelton and Gabbert)*** He's 22nd in yards per attempt*** I don't pay attention to ESPN's QBR rating (in spite of them wanting to shove it down our throats) but IIRC, Tebow is very very low in thatOn the other hand, he does lead the league in yards per completion, yards per rush, and is a respectable 7th in TD%.His stats overall are not great. But I think Completion Percentage is one of the least important stats to judge a QB.The #1 all time? Chad Pennington.The problem with completion percentage is it has a lot to do with the offense being run. Tebow throws a million deep passes, that hurts his completion percentage.to be fair, there's some chicken-egg going on with that, IMO. The playcalling is as it is to maximize his strengths - the deep ball. He struggles with the mid-range stuff, so they don't call it all that often.
  19. Not all "bad games" are equal. Brady threw 4 picks against Buffalo but he also had 4 TDs, 387 yards, and an 86.1 passer rating, and he only lost the game on a last-second field goal. Tim Tebow dreams he had a game like that yesterday.Yes you know you are comparing a Hall of Famer to Tim Tebow right?Actually, it was the previous poster who tried to compare a Hall of Famer to Tim Tebow. I just set the record straight a bit.He didn't compare Tebow to Brady. He said "Brady threw 4 picks against the same defense" which is a fact.I think a better way to compare to Brady is to highlight that Brady also had a 4 int game in his first season starting.
  20. I won't try to defend Tebow's game today...nothing much good happened. Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light, And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout; But there is no joy in Denver — mighty Tebow has struck out.
  21. Wait a minute: has anyone ever seen Brandon Lloyd and FavreCo in the same room? ... Moleculo, Denver's defense doesn't look like it's hurting to me. The Patriots don't sniff 41 points without four Bronco turnovers. Look at what Minnesota did with a rookie QB and no ADP. This defense has some holes for sure. DL is much better than last year, but they are still suceptable to runs right up the gut. Goodman has been suspect. Dawkins is great for leadership and making the big hit, but he's a liability in coverage. The D that you need to make an extremely run-heavy, ball control offense work at a championship level is what I'm talking about...that's what Denver needs. I'm talking about what SF is doing this year... what Pittsburgh and Baltimore do almost everywhere...that kind of stifling, run stuffing, get after the QB type of D is what Denver needs to be able to turn this team into a perennial contender. That's what I'm talking about when I say the D isn't there.
  22. Re: the bolded above: I don't think that's accurate. Elway has said that his priority to rebuilding the Broncos is through defense first. Elway knows that a QB's best friend is a running game and a solid D. Consider Elways first few moves as VP: (1) hire Fox, a defensive coach. (2) get Champ Bailey signed... Champ was on his way out of town under the McD regime, Elway made sure re-signing Champ was a top prioroty. (3) draft Von Miller.From yesterday's Denver Post: You are absolutely right though... a solid D is necessary to make this work, and the D isn't there. It's a heck of a lot closer than it was last year though, and things are trending in the right direction.
  23. I for one would love to read your analysis, and I'm sure many others in the thread would as well. It's really just a small minority of posters involved the ballyhoo (don't you just love that word?). While that small minority may be posting far more than the rest of us, I think there is still room for intelligent analysis/discussion in this thread..+1 put me in this camp. I'd love to see your analysis.Hoss, I'll do even better than this...I'll read your analysis and call you names so both bases are covered.You know how sometimes you get all amped up to do something, roll up your sleeves and get hunkered down for the long haul (hunker is another cool word) and then you lose the mood? Well, I lost the mood. In my earlier post I had just been looking at stats and reading about the Broncos for an hour or so - eating Doritos and drinking a Rockstar. Then I read the thread and got discouraged and decided that playing some Xbox with a buddy from back home seemed waaaay more appealing. Now, it's 4am. I'm up doing work and don't have much time. I will try to contribute with 2 pretty cool little tidbits that I found out this past week, though, about the Broncos: [*]This was just over a week ago, actually, but I work with a guy on and off who's acquaintances with John Fox. He went to dinner with Fox (and others) and the next day he and I were talking about it. The subject of the new Broncos offense came up and he said Fox laughed and said "I'd run this offense 'till the day I die, if I could! I love it." Apparantly he was never against running it, as was reported widely in the media (outside Denver). As soon as he decided Tebow would be starting he and McCoy starting brainstorming. It took a few weeks to really get it ready but when it was they implemented it full bore. Which brings me to my next interesting little nugget I learned this past week... [*]Listening to local talk radio the other day and a guy called in from Atlanta. He now lives in Denver. He was talking about when Fox was still coaching at Carolina and about the tiime the Falcons met Fox's Panthers in the playoffs. According to this guy Fox's offense that he's using in Denver now is not new to his teams. He's wanted to try it for years and he actually did against Atlanta. He said when the Panthers came to town they threw everyone in Atlanta off by putting the RB at the QB position for pretty much the entire game. He said it was similar to the Wildcat but even more so like the offense he's running now with Tebow. He said the RB was tossing the ball around and running almost like an option offense. Seems McCoy was the QB coach back then (I think) and he and Fox, again, tried something radical from the norm. I just looked for some video showing what the offense looked like but couldn't find any. I find this pretty interesting If anyone remembers this game I'd love to hear your input. I'm quite busy right now with work and can't research stats of the game or look for any video evidence. If I could find some plays from that game I'd LOVE to watch it. If not I'll try to find something about it later today or tomorrow. Commence the name calling! I'll start! NITWIT! good stuff, and agreed that Fox loves to run; just looking at what he did in Carolina is evidence of this. Regarding running the wildcat vs Atlanta - I don't remember that game, but here's the cbssports.com write up.
  24. why don't you do all of us a favor and post exactly what stats you are referencing. I'd like to see this. If you can statistically show Skelton is a better QB than Tebow, do it. One was completion % in games he was the starter. The other was winning % as a starter and I don't remember the other 2. I'll admit that Cowherd was cherry picking stats the way Double G has. Cowherd was simply making a point about the ridiculous hype around a guy who stinks it up for 3 Q's almost every week against some marginal teams. I'm not saying Skelton is great. He may not even be good. He does just win though. Kinda like Alex Smith. That guy can't be stopped.to your credit, you replied before I had updated my question. Here are full career stats for games started for Skelton and Tebow.games cmp att cmp % yd td int rate y/a att yd y/a td skelton 9 144 283 0.51 1680 7 10 62.7 5.9 23 127 5.5 0 tebow 12 143 290 0.49 2057 14 5 81.6 7.1 130 772 5.9 7completion percentage: Skelton has a lead by 2%. you've got me there. winning percentage as a starter: Skelton: 6-3, Tebow: 8-4. identical. On a per game basis, Skelton has thrown for more yards, sure...by 15 yards per game. When you couple in rushing yards though, it isn't even close. When you consider TD vs int, the comparison ends pretty quickly.Note: I am not cherry picking here. These are complete stats, courtesy of pro-football-reference.com.eta: double-G wasn't cherry picking either...those are the stats.double ETA:skeltons 6 career wins (in games he started...i.e. the stats above) came against the following:2010 Broncos (4-12)2010 cowboys (6-10)Rams (2-12)Eagles (6-8)Rams (2-12)Browns (4-10)Tebow has, at least, beaten the 8-6 Jets, 7-7 raiders, 7-7 Chargers, and 7-7 Bears (sans QB and RB but still a solid defense).
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