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Family Matters

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  1. Hats off to the Chargers. They totally earned this game. They may have paid too dearly unfortunately. But I have to give AJ, Norv the Charger team all the credit in the world. In fact, the depth of this team showed and paid off today. All the back ups that were called upon played critical roles and made signoficant contributions to this win. The depth I'm referring to is mostly because of AJ. He did a terrific job assembling this team.

    I don't always agree with his actions or the manner he conducts his business but you cannot argue with his ability to identify talent and assemble a quality team.

    Also, Norv should get his share of credit. He overcame tremendous adversity and stayed the course. I have a new level of respect for him after the way he handled this season.

    Congrats Charger fans. Good luck next week!

  2. NFL.com has a highlight video. The moment in question happens around 1:50 in.

    I see the same thing that I described earlier. I must be as blind as Family Matters.

    PS FM reason number 64 why AJ Smith's job is nowhere near to being in jeopardy.

    Stat of the Week

    So you want to know how active your team will be with a good free-agency market coming up in three months? Here's a chart of how much cap space each team was due to have next spring as of Saturday, along with how many players each team has under contract:

    Team Signed Players 2008 cap room

    1. Tennessee 39 $40.85 million

    2. San Diego 44 $33.03 million

    3. Jacksonville 43 $32.69 million

    4. Buffalo 49 $32.05 million

    5. New Orleans 39 $31.69 million

    6. Cincinnati 48 $31.45 million

    7. San Francisco 48 $30.91 million

    8. Cleveland 42 $30.31 million

    9. Arizona 34 $30.27 million

    10.N.Y. Jets 45 $27.72 million

    11.Oakland 40 $25.98 million

    12.Tampa Bay 48 $25.90 million

    13.Miami 48 $25.56 million

    14.N.Y. Giants 49 $24.47 million

    15.Detroit 42 $23.50 million

    16.Houston 43 $22.91 million

    17.Dallas 40 $20.61 million

    18.Kansas City 44 $20.27 million

    19.Chicago 52 $19.80 million

    20.Pittsburgh 43 $18.61 million

    21.Green Bay 48 $18.37 million

    22.Philadelphia 49 $17.17 million

    23.Denver 49 $16.77 million

    24.Minnesota 49 $14.88 million

    25.New England 41 $10.93 million

    26.St. Louis 45 $9.61 million

    27.Seattle 44 $9.55 million

    28.Indianapolis 48 $8.49 million

    29.Carolina 35 $6.05 million

    30.Atlanta 52 $5.79 million*

    31.Baltimore 42 $5.00 million

    32.Washington 45 -$20.72 million

    * Not including unspecified potential rebate from contested return of Michael Vick's pro-rated signing bonus.

    And yes, you read it right. The Washington Redskins are $20 million over the projected '08 cap, a number that will be reduced once the 'Skins convert some bonuses assigned to the '08 cap (including a hefty one paid to tight end Chris Cooley) to signing bonuses, which can be pro-rated over the life of the contract.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...9/week14/4.html

    So the savings from Brees was that much? So does this contridict the point that Walter Slovotsky kept making about SD spending near their Cap limit each year? Am I missing something?
    Apparently you're missing the entire point of the post. This is the Chargers cap space for 2008, not for 2007. As far as I know, the Chargers are right at the cap limit for 2007.

    In the offseason, I'm sure AJ will try to lock up Cromartie and a couple other young Bolts to long term extensions. Then he'll make a couple moves via free agency, getting the Bolts close to the cap. By week 7, if the Bolts haven't had to use the remaining cap space, AJ will accelerate a couple of bonuses so that the Chargers are maxed out against the cap, and have more room in the following offseason.

    Happens every year.

    You may be right, I might be missing something. But comparing to where they are versus others, they seem on the low end of things. That usually means they are spending less. Guess it would be helpful to know where they are right now, for this season compared to the rest of the NFL. That would paint a better picture I guess. Anyone know?
  3. NFL.com has a highlight video. The moment in question happens around 1:50 in.

    I see the same thing that I described earlier. I must be as blind as Family Matters.

    PS FM reason number 64 why AJ Smith's job is nowhere near to being in jeopardy.

    Stat of the Week

    So you want to know how active your team will be with a good free-agency market coming up in three months? Here's a chart of how much cap space each team was due to have next spring as of Saturday, along with how many players each team has under contract:

    Team Signed Players 2008 cap room

    1. Tennessee 39 $40.85 million

    2. San Diego 44 $33.03 million

    3. Jacksonville 43 $32.69 million

    4. Buffalo 49 $32.05 million

    5. New Orleans 39 $31.69 million

    6. Cincinnati 48 $31.45 million

    7. San Francisco 48 $30.91 million

    8. Cleveland 42 $30.31 million

    9. Arizona 34 $30.27 million

    10.N.Y. Jets 45 $27.72 million

    11.Oakland 40 $25.98 million

    12.Tampa Bay 48 $25.90 million

    13.Miami 48 $25.56 million

    14.N.Y. Giants 49 $24.47 million

    15.Detroit 42 $23.50 million

    16.Houston 43 $22.91 million

    17.Dallas 40 $20.61 million

    18.Kansas City 44 $20.27 million

    19.Chicago 52 $19.80 million

    20.Pittsburgh 43 $18.61 million

    21.Green Bay 48 $18.37 million

    22.Philadelphia 49 $17.17 million

    23.Denver 49 $16.77 million

    24.Minnesota 49 $14.88 million

    25.New England 41 $10.93 million

    26.St. Louis 45 $9.61 million

    27.Seattle 44 $9.55 million

    28.Indianapolis 48 $8.49 million

    29.Carolina 35 $6.05 million

    30.Atlanta 52 $5.79 million*

    31.Baltimore 42 $5.00 million

    32.Washington 45 -$20.72 million

    * Not including unspecified potential rebate from contested return of Michael Vick's pro-rated signing bonus.

    And yes, you read it right. The Washington Redskins are $20 million over the projected '08 cap, a number that will be reduced once the 'Skins convert some bonuses assigned to the '08 cap (including a hefty one paid to tight end Chris Cooley) to signing bonuses, which can be pro-rated over the life of the contract.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...9/week14/4.html

    So the savings from Brees was that much? So does this contridict the point that Walter Slovotsky kept making about SD spending near their Cap limit each year? Am I missing something?
  4. I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

    If it's so stupid, then why did you suggest that the only reason that the Chargers would be holding on to a coach that has won 6 of his last 8 and could wrap up his division this weekend was to keep from paying for an ex-coach?Not adding value is better than detracting value, FM.
    Wow thisis really difficult for you isn't it. I'm not the one suggesting it. Read the news. I'm just repsonding to what's been reported by the Charger local media. I didn't make this up. It's really helpful to read all that I post rather pick bits and pieces. Maybe then we can have a meaningful debate instead of this idiotic nonsense. :shrug:
    You said "Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lol" Can you link me to even one source that says that this is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that they won't fire Norv?
    The link was already posted earlier. Feel free to look it up yourself. Sounds like your beef is with the guy reprting this, not me. But I have to say based on AJ's past handling of some player contracts that it's very believable. At the very least, he's left some believeing it's the case. Maybe it's not true but very believable.
  5. BSS-this is not directed at you but to anyone that wants to answer:

    1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go?

    Wow... this has been re-hashed and re-hashed in multiple threads that you have been part of. Brees looked to have a Pennington-type shoulder injury and only a couple of years as a competent starter under his belt. Rivers had way more up-side and a high contract. Rivers has had at least as much success with the Chargers as Brees had.

    2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development?

    14 wins in a single season, argue with that.

    3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers?

    Given that Marty left them no other option, of course.

    4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? Especially considering they lost both coordinators? And they have a new QB that is still learning?

    The Chargers look like they are headed to at least ten, maybe eleven, wins. With or without Marty, I don't think anyone was anticipating much more than that this year.

    5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers?

    Rivers led the team to 14 wins last year and has been every bit as good as Brees this year, and he STILL has more up-side than Brees. Although Marty did not get fired for failing to win in the playoffs, he probably deserved to be. Neither of his Chargers teams that made the playoffs were very well prepared for those games, and idiotic coaching moves during the game only exasperated that problem. Hopefully, Norv can do better. It seems hard to believe he could do worse.

    Well at least you believe whatever they're selling and that's something if not blind homerism. The belief that Rivers is as good as Brees and that Marty needing to be fired after losing a playoff game is the premise of your beliefs today. It's really difficult to debate with someone that's locked into a belief that reasonable outside of blind homerism can easily see. I can understand you're being behind your team and all and that's great, I won't criticize a fan for believeing. But outside of of that noone that is being realistic is going to believe that these moves were what's best for the team. Sure, it may yet work out, over time, but at what cost? You have to think they would be better off if these moves were not made.
  6. Im a homer but not a blind homer. AJ has made some iffy decisions. But every GM decision will never 100% correct. Drafting a QB in round1 you are pretty much tied to him being your QB unless he totally flames out. That be said I have never like the Brees/Phil decision. The Marty thing was tougher and I know why it happened and then the bolts got caught behind the 8 ball as far as timing goes to getting a coach

    1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go? NO

    2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development? No, but they went 14-2 with Marty and will probably make the playoffs again this season

    3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers? No, but really the AJ - Marty relationship needed a divorce

    4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? No but they will win the division again. Sometimes you need to take a step back to make the leap forward

    Especially considering they lost both coordinators? Kinda looks like Wade would have been the best choice, but Cam is in a no win siutation, LOL

    And they have a new QB that is still learning? Like I said draft a QB in the top 5, he's going to be your QB eventually

    5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers? Today, No but hopefully in the next 3 seasons or so we can win a SB, I have my doubts with Norv/Ted at the Helm,

    And that is why I've been critical of AJ on these decisions. If he would of checked himself (ego) on these issues they would likely be a better TEAM today and going forward. He's the one that decided they needed to draft another QB. He's the one that allowed a Pro Bowl QB leave and start over at that position. (BTW-it's interesting to observe that the Browns are handling their similar QB issues better by at least allowing Anderson the time to prove or disprove he's their guy). He's the one that chose not to get along with his head coach. So the way I see it, he could of prevented these problems by doing what's best for the team rather than force his will. That's all I've been saying all along.
  7. I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.

    If it's so stupid, then why did you suggest that the only reason that the Chargers would be holding on to a coach that has won 6 of his last 8 and could wrap up his division this weekend was to keep from paying for an ex-coach?Not adding value is better than detracting value, FM.
    Wow thisis really difficult for you isn't it. I'm not the one suggesting it. Read the news. I'm just repsonding to what's been reported by the Charger local media. I didn't make this up. It's really helpful to read all that I post rather pick bits and pieces. Maybe then we can have a meaningful debate instead of this idiotic nonsense. :thumbup:
  8. That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

    And this is why people take your opinions on the Chargers with a grain of salt. AJ's interests are directly tied to the interests of the Chargers winning games. To suggest otherwise is laughable.Sure the Bolts would love to have kept Drew Brees AND their coordinators and Marty. Unfortunately, keeping Drew Brees meant paying ~ $10M to an injured QB while you have a high first round pick on the bench who can replace Brees and allow you to spend the $10M elsewhere to improve the team.And AJ didn't decide to give the Dolphin and Cowboy head coaching gigs to his coordinators. To suggest that AJ decided to make those changes is ridiculous.
    I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lolBTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.
    All I know is that when I moved to Cali in 2003 the organization was in shambles and that the team, at least on paper, has improved every year. AJ didn't exactly have the easiest job in the world but he's helped make it so the Chargers aren't the laughingstock of the NFL.
    :lmao:
    Can't argue with that thinking. From a high level view it sounds right. But when you think about some of the moves you realize things could be better. BSS-this is not directed at you but to anyone that wants to answer:1. Did AJ do the right thing in letting Brees go? 2. Was letting Brees go and putting in a first year starter the best move to help the Chargers win and continue their upward development?3. Was letting Marty go the best thing for the Chargers?4. Did allowing Marty to go help the Chargers continue their upward development and winning ways? Especially considering they lost both coordinators? And they have a new QB that is still learning?5. Do you feel the Chargers are a better team today without Brees and Marty with the Chargers?If you feel AJ has made the best moves for the organization by letting Brees and Marty go then you have low expectations for them this year and therefore have no room to complain about Rivers or Norv. No reasonable person should expect a new QB and numerous coaching changes to move on without set backs. They need more time to make their impact. Perhaps 1-3 years more depending on wht other changes AJ has in store for them.These questions define what is happening to this team this year. Personally, I feel they would be in better position today if Brees was still their QB and/or Marty was their coach. Or if they still had some continuity in their coaching staff. Some of that was entirely out of their control but some of it was avoidable.
  9. As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

    :goodposting: Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.FM = :wub:
    Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. ;)
    I notice that you didn't answer the question. If your nonsensical rantings and refusal to take into consideration what almost every other person says on a subject weren't so hilarious, I think I'd have to put you on ignore.
    I don't answer stoopid questions and it's a stoopid question and you looked silly for even asking it. Now you look even more silly for bringing it up again. So I'll leave it to you to answer seeing as you are the only one concerned about it.Oh, and please put me on ignore. You usually don't add any value to this discussion so maybe that would be the best thing you could do for all of us. Please.
  10. As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

    :rant: Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.

    FM = :hot:

    Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.

    Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. :lmao:

    Actually, it was Trotter who said that, not Acee. But Trotter is a Charger expert as well.
    I thought Acee made the comments as well. But in any case, it's becoming clear that Acee has his own concerns as expressed here:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/charg...25chargers.html

    But the fact remains that high on the list of reasons the Chargers have underperformed to this point is that they have a leadership void. Not one of the dozen players queried in recent weeks denied that Turner seems to lack the ability to inspire players by word or deed. All also concurred that there are players who have not responded to Turner's quiet style of leadership. Despite the seeming accuracy of General Manager A.J. Smith's assessment this week that in the Chargers' locker room “there are a lot of good character guys who are leaders,” the fact is the team misses the fire and attention to detail provided by Marty Schottenheimer.

    But hey, if other's said it it must be true. Right?
  11. I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lol

    BTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?

    But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.

    What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.

    The Chargers have pretty consistently spent up to the cap number for quite some time. However, they do a pretty good job managing their future cap, so each year they start out significantly below the cap. The Chargers as an organization have shown that they are willing pay players based on performance on the field (see LT). And you are wrong about Antonio Gates. The Chargers (and AJ) had no problem paying him big time money (which they are), they just wanted him to sign the tender and get into camp while they negotiated his new contract.

    1. The Chargers are no where near their cap from what I've seen. They are about middle of the road on payroll.

    2. You are not accurate about Gates. They did not want to deal in a fair way and he held out for a fair market deal. Aj played hardball when he realized he couldn't bully Gates and in doinf so he cost the team, again. Of course in the end he paid Gates. Gates gave a little and AJ gave a little. But that could of been done before AJ put the Chargers in abd situation. Clearly his actions were not in the Chargers best interest.

    As far as Brees goes, what did he win while he was a Charger? One division title. No playoff wins. I don't think losing Brees has hurt this team nearly as much as you suggest. In fact, the Chargers have a pretty decent chance to finish this year at 11-5. That would match the team's best record under Brees.

    Your point on Brees is skewed to make it appear their decision was warrented. I'm surprised you said that. Didn't think I would have to make this point to you. With any QB there is a development process. Brees had just turned the corner and was proving himself. The talent on this team was not fully assembled while Brees was developing. Parts were being added along the way. In some cases (Gates for example) parts were missing at times due to AJ's hardball tatics. I'm sure that missing Gates for training and gametime didn't help the Chargers in their efforts to improve and improve. But Brees did continue to improve, didn't he? River OTOH-had the benefit of a fully loaded team to step into. This is hardly a similar situation. And if you are seriously suggesting that this year's team is asgood as it was last year then you must be smoking something. Have you seen them play? Have you read the comments in this thread questioning what's wrong? I really do not expect they will go far in the playoffs. The only way they do is if they somehow turn things around in a dramatic fashion.

    BTW, the Chargers have used the money saved by not signing Brees to extend the contracts of or resign many of their starters (Jammer and Dielman being two prime examples).

    You could also say that they made those deals on the new cap money they had to work with. Fact is they are just avg in spending their money. The big deal some have made here on the big savings of letting Brees leave just doesn't add up. Some make different excuses like he was hurt so why would they weant him? And yet they made an insulting low ball offer that came off contradictory. Doesn't add up either.

    As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

    So you're saying Acee isn't a viable source? Maurlie would disagree with you. Either that or all the other arguments made based on his reports are bogus I guess. :loco:

    As far as this Chargers fan is concerned, I don't blame anybody for their inability to match expectations this year. I think the expectations for this team were set too high. This is a team that has gone 11-5, 9-7, 14-2 the last three years, and will end up somewhere between 9-7 and 11-5 this year. It would appear to me that this is nominally a 10-6 or 11-5 team that either overachieved or benefited from a soft schedule last year, and is playing about to their talent level this year.

    I agree that expectations were too high. But for different reasons. I noticed to avoid the issue created by AJ's changes. I can only assume by your responses so far and failure to address my main point, that you think these moves by AJ were good ones. So you think the following to be true:

    1. Letting Brees go was the best thing to help this team win now.

    2. Playing hardball with star players like Gates sends a positive message to the rest of the team that we want you to help us win. So long as we can lowball you.

    3. If you get injired I'm not going to want any longer. See Brees.

    4. If I don't you I will argue with you, take away your authority and not support you in your efforts to build a winning team. See Marty.

    So these types of decisions have led to numerous changes that have stopped their progress. Their performance so far this year proves that to be true. Unless you want to suggest the LT was lying in his SI interview that things are an issue. You only need to step back from the AJ is god perspective and see and hear what's happening.

    They're still good but they could be doing so much better if AJ hadn't made some of these decisions. Pretty simple really.

  12. As far as not wanting to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, that is pure speculation by writers who have column space to fill. I am sure that the Chargers don't want to pay 2 ex coaches, but I don't think that would stop them if they felt they really needed to make a change.

    :D Quick, give me the name of one NFL franchise that is hoping to pay for ex-coaches.FM = :rolleyes:
    Not smart but I consider the source. Typical well thought posts. Once again you have demonstarted your superior intellect.Funny how when I refer to articles or national media pundits about the Chargers I hear comments like they don't what they're talking about. I also here from some of you that Acee is the local expert and is "in the know" so to speak. In fact it was Maurile that has stated Acee is the Charger expert. I know some have hold him in high regard. Now you want to dismiss his reports about the Chargers not wanting to fire Norv to avoid paying ex-coaches. Sounds about right. :rolleyes:
  13. The bolded comment intself is worth a discussion. The point isn't that they are better because of those 2 people. They're better because of less change at both positions. First off, the change at QB set them back. Rivers needs 2-3 years to develop. That's normal for QB development in the NFL. Brees had just turned the corner and was a great asset for this team at their most critical position. Take away a vet at QB and add a first year starter and you are going to have set backs. The timing was bad because the development of the team demanded a season QB to lead them. Not a first year starter.

    There wasn't a setback. 14-2 down?

    Then after losing both coordinators, they fire the HC. So now you have no stability at QB, HC or either of the coordinator positions. Those changes is what is hurting them IMO. It was predicitable that they would not have aa good a year as they did last year due to all the change in itself. Just by having Brees they may have been able to manage their way through due the impact of the QB play. But that much change is asking for problems.

    Brees isn't exactly lighting it up for the Saints this year. I really don't see how anyone can point to this season as absolute proof that Brees is better than Rivers.

    That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

    Why would any general manger's best interest not be to win games? Common sense would dictate that the more games a team wins the more secure his job would be.
    You asked a great question about the GM. It would be interesting to see your answer to this question and then explain the moves AJ made the last 2 years. How in the world does getting rid of Marty and Brees help this team win? How does putting a first year QB in help win now? I can't wait to hear your response.As to your comment about Brees, does he have the talent around him that SD has? No he doesn't. If he did I'm confident he would be performing much better.
  14. That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

    And this is why people take your opinions on the Chargers with a grain of salt. AJ's interests are directly tied to the interests of the Chargers winning games. To suggest otherwise is laughable.Sure the Bolts would love to have kept Drew Brees AND their coordinators and Marty. Unfortunately, keeping Drew Brees meant paying ~ $10M to an injured QB while you have a high first round pick on the bench who can replace Brees and allow you to spend the $10M elsewhere to improve the team.And AJ didn't decide to give the Dolphin and Cowboy head coaching gigs to his coordinators. To suggest that AJ decided to make those changes is ridiculous.
    I know I've had my share of mis-reading a post but I didn't say or suggest he decided to get rid of the coordinators. I said he decided (or he and Spanos) to fire Marty and get rid of Brees. As for the money, not sure where the cap number is but they aren't they under? If so then your point is off a bit. Besides, teams pay injured players every year. They heal and play again. It happens all the time. And if they were that concerned about his health, then why offer him any money at all? They just wanted him if they could get him cheap. IOW-they weren't interested in paying him fair market money. AJ tried the saame thing with Gates. That was a costly mistake as well. Now there are reports that they are so cheap that they don't want to fire Norv because they don't want to pay 2 x-coaches. lolBTW-where did they spend all that money they saved on Brees?But if you think those decisions were in the best interest of the Chargers winning then I guess you're happy with the results. Because outside of the changes I mentioned, this is the same team.What I find interesting about this thread is that some want to pin the problems on Rivers. Some on the line. Some on the D. Isn't it interesting that it seems it's everyone's fault but AJ's. When they were winning with Marty and Brees, it was because of AJ. Now that they having troubled times, it's everyones fault but AJ's. Simply amazing the way some Charger fans see things.
  15. At least he's doing enough to win the division and get them a home game in the playoffs - which hopefully they finally win this year.

    That won't matter to his detractors. If SD wins a playoff game for the first time in more than a decade his critics will simply say "he should have won the SB with all the talent on that roster". Marty/Brees never won a playoff game while in SD and yet those that have been whining about their departure will continue to whine even if Turner/Rivers accomplish as much as Marty/Brees ever did in SD. Actually, just by making the playoffs they'll equal the best season put up by Marty/Brees in SD. Keep in mind I don't dislike either of those guys(fans of both), I just think people are getting way too enthusiastic when projecting how good this team would have been with just those two people as part of the organization. The o-line would still be playing spotty all season long. The S's and ILB's would still have the same problems. Rivers may be having a mediocre year which hurts SD, but the OL/S/ILB's have played well below mediocre imo. Those are the REAL problems on this team that need to be addressed.
    The bolded comment intself is worth a discussion. The point isn't that they are better because of those 2 people. They're better because of less change at both positions. First off, the change at QB set them back. Rivers needs 2-3 years to develop. That's normal for QB development in the NFL. Brees had just turned the corner and was a great asset for this team at their most critical position. Take away a vet at QB and add a first year starter and you are going to have set backs. The timing was bad because the development of the team demanded a season QB to lead them. Not a first year starter.

    Then after losing both coordinators, they fire the HC. So now you have no stability at QB, HC or either of the coordinator positions. Those changes is what is hurting them IMO. It was predicitable that they would not have aa good a year as they did last year due to all the change in itself. Just by having Brees they may have been able to manage their way through due the impact of the QB play. But that much change is asking for problems.

    That is why I criticized AJ. I felt the decisions made to effect these changes were not in the best interest of winning games, but rather in his best interests. Funny thing is, those decisions may be what gets him fired. If they don't get things turned around he may find himself a victim of his own changes.

  16. Rivers is making his supporters (and I am one of his strongest supporters) look pretty bad. I still think he can develop into a good QB but he's got to keep his head level and play consistently. I don't care about the mechanics, it's all mental with this guy and maybe another year of Norv (who is a terrible coach but has a good track record with young QB's) will help him.

    He's had a worse season than I projected but it's also important to keep how bad he's been in perspective. He's the #18 ranked passer at the moment which isn't good BUT...#18 Rivers#17 Cutler#16 Brees#15 Palmer... he's in pretty good company. I don't read nearly as much criticism directed at Cutler/Brees/Palmer as I do Rivers. All three of those quarterbacks are also in underachieving situations with talent but it's looking more and more like Rivers will be the only one in the group that will be going to the playoffs.
    So he looks good because others around him look like he does? Not the best argument to make. Cutler and Brees do not have the talent around them that Rivers does. And Cincy has the most banged O-line in the NFL and even more banged up D. Rivers doesn't have the support issues around him the others have. So if we're going to put this into perspective, Rivers doesn't have the excuses other around him do. With that said, I'd cut Rivers some slack beacuse he's only in his 2nd year of starting. Mst QB's need 3 years or more to get situated in the NFL. I guess AJ felt Rivers didn't need that. He must of thought Rivers was capable of doing things most QB's cannot. Also, it's not Rivers fault that there have so many changes within the coaching ranks. Few teams could meet the expectations bestowed upon them with as many coaching changes as the Chargers have had. It's just not realistic to think they can overcome that much and not have set backs. But again, I guess AJ and Spanos felt they could. Otherwise, why make so many chamges at all youir leadership positions at QB, HC, OC, DC and expect everthing to be alright?
  17. So.....now who is better now, Eli or Rivers?

    Whoever threw less interceptions in the most recent week's games. So this week its Rivers.

    The actual correct answer is Roethlisberger.

    But last year (Bens second as starter) people were hating him, calling him Big Bust and what not. Sometimes people are quick to write off young QBs, as I believe is the case here with Rivers.
    Roethlisberger had a few things wrong with him physically last year. Rivers has no such excuse, and Eli much less so than Roethlisberger last year.

    Also, I can't recall any QB worth their salt yelling at a crowd to shut up when they were booing him. This latest example of Rivers's lack of composure is just another such in a long string of them that makes me think he doesn't have what it takes upstairs to lead a team, and to me that is possibly the most alarming short coming of his. He suffers many of the same flaws as Brees, but Brees never pulled that kind of stuff.

    Ryan Leaf? Oh never mind. You said worth their salt. :goodposting:
  18. So.....now who is better now, Eli or Rivers?

    Whoever threw less interceptions in the most recent week's games. So this week its Rivers.The actual correct answer is Roethlisberger.
    But last year (Bens second as starter) people were hating him, calling him Big Bust and what not. Sometimes people are quick to write off young QBs, as I believe is the case here with Rivers.
    :goodposting: Any new QB needs time to make the adjustment to the NFL. Rivers is going through a adjustment period as most do and if he can maintain his confidence I think he'll be fine. But you have to expect more troubles yet this year. It's the natural process of an NFL QB and to think otherwise would not be in line with normal expectations.
  19. I was very pleased with Rivers' performance yesterday. He made the right reads, threw the ball away when there was nothing there, and was extremely accurate. I'm not sure if Hardwick makes that much of a difference, but the OL was tremendous in pass protection.It's amazing how different Rivers looks when he has time to throw.

    They all look good when they have time to throw. What seperates the good ones is what they do with the ball when protection breaks down. Some guys just don't make good decisions under pressure. Not sure where Rivers is yet as it sometimes takes 2-3 years to fully develop the NFL game. I forget which one posted the comment about his confidence but if he's not confident then he's going to have continued problems. Maybe his confidence is waning leaving him with more bad decisions? Who knows but it seems clear he has the talent so I wouldn't be surprised to find that's the case.
  20. Great game against a tough D.....Nice passes (Gates was open all day), but he made some nice sideline throws to VJ.Good velocity, good decision making....throwing it away versus forcing the pass.

    Rivers did well, but Gates was wide open as you said.The Ravens aren't a good defense this year, that's been a common misconception all season. Their secondary is a mess.
    plus they tried to cover gates with LB's all game. Bad move for a genius an all
    I don't think there is a LB that can cover him with much success. But I guess they thought it was a good idea. Almost as bad as Denver kicking to Hester. You gotta be kidding me!But let's give props to Rivers and the Chargers for getting the job done. Balt may not be as good as last year but they still have some play makers on defense and Rivers managed the game very well.
  21. Here's an interesting read (posted at PFT) from the Chargers local media:

    POSTED 12:58 p.m. EST, November 13, 2007

    LACK OF DISCIPLINE IN SAN DIEGO? by Michael David Smith

    The story didn't get much attention, but Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune reported on Sunday that some Chargers players stayed out past curfew last Friday in Minneapolis, 36 hours before the team turned in its worst performance of the season in a loss to the Vikings.

    Jim Trotter of Sports Illustrated reported during an appearance today on ESPN First Take that one of those players was linebacker Shawne Merriman.

    According to Acee, the team responded to the curfew violation by not only fining the players involved, but also firing director of security Mike Cash, whose job description includes overseeing the security guards on the players' floor at the team's hotel and ensuring that the players are in on time.

    Whether or not there's any link between the players staying out late and their weak performance against the Vikings, this raises the question of whether there's enough discipline on the Chargers.

    Marty Schottenheimer, the coach the Chargers fired after last season's 14-2 record and first-round playoff loss, is known for having a good relationship with his players but also for running a tight ship. Norv Turner, the coach brought in to replace Schottenheimer, doesn't have that reputation. Jerry Rice, who played for Turner on the Raiders, once said that Turner "had no control" over the team.

    Neither Turner nor General Manager A.J. Smith (who made the decision to fire Cash), would discuss the curfew violations. But if the Turner-coached Chargers don't start playing more like last year's Schottenheimer-coached Chargers, the questions about whether there's enough discipline in San Diego are not going away.

    Confirmed that Merriman was one of them. "Sources have confirmed that the players in question were Drayton Florence, Antonio Gates, Cletis Gordon, Shawne Merriman, Carlos Polk, Brandon Siler and Jamal Williams . They were each fined $1,500." It was on Friday night. The team got to the hotel from the airport after 9:30 PM, and curfew was midnight. Those seven players stayed out until 12:30 AM. It has happened a number of times over the last several years, so this is not a Marty vs. Norv issue. (link)
    How can you be sure? What are you basing your opinion on? The article suggests it is an issue with Norv. So I'll allow you to argue with the media on this one. And yet I'm not surprised that you would take this position.

    Certainly, some on the outside will insist this is a reflection of a lack of discipline under first-year coach Norv Turner. But several sources said players missing curfew has been an issue on multiple occasions in recent years. And Turner reinstated the team staying at a hotel the night before home games in part to keep a tight control on players.

    link
    :football:

    .......again

    :mellow:

    Imagine that. JWB makes another post that says absolutely nothing. If you don't have anything of value to add maybe you shouldn't bother post. I really don't mind the debate but it's clear you can't think for yourself. Of course maybe you prefer that others make your posts for you......
  22. Here's an interesting read (posted at PFT) from the Chargers local media:

    POSTED 12:58 p.m. EST, November 13, 2007

    LACK OF DISCIPLINE IN SAN DIEGO? by Michael David Smith

    The story didn't get much attention, but Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune reported on Sunday that some Chargers players stayed out past curfew last Friday in Minneapolis, 36 hours before the team turned in its worst performance of the season in a loss to the Vikings.

    Jim Trotter of Sports Illustrated reported during an appearance today on ESPN First Take that one of those players was linebacker Shawne Merriman.

    According to Acee, the team responded to the curfew violation by not only fining the players involved, but also firing director of security Mike Cash, whose job description includes overseeing the security guards on the players' floor at the team's hotel and ensuring that the players are in on time.

    Whether or not there's any link between the players staying out late and their weak performance against the Vikings, this raises the question of whether there's enough discipline on the Chargers.

    Marty Schottenheimer, the coach the Chargers fired after last season's 14-2 record and first-round playoff loss, is known for having a good relationship with his players but also for running a tight ship. Norv Turner, the coach brought in to replace Schottenheimer, doesn't have that reputation. Jerry Rice, who played for Turner on the Raiders, once said that Turner "had no control" over the team.

    Neither Turner nor General Manager A.J. Smith (who made the decision to fire Cash), would discuss the curfew violations. But if the Turner-coached Chargers don't start playing more like last year's Schottenheimer-coached Chargers, the questions about whether there's enough discipline in San Diego are not going away.

    Confirmed that Merriman was one of them. "Sources have confirmed that the players in question were Drayton Florence, Antonio Gates, Cletis Gordon, Shawne Merriman, Carlos Polk, Brandon Siler and Jamal Williams . They were each fined $1,500." It was on Friday night. The team got to the hotel from the airport after 9:30 PM, and curfew was midnight. Those seven players stayed out until 12:30 AM. It has happened a number of times over the last several years, so this is not a Marty vs. Norv issue. (link)
    How can you be sure? What are you basing your opinion on? The article suggests it is an issue with Norv. So I'll allow you to argue with the media on this one. And yet I'm not surprised that you would take this position.

    Certainly, some on the outside will insist this is a reflection of a lack of discipline under first-year coach Norv Turner. But several sources said players missing curfew has been an issue on multiple occasions in recent years. And Turner reinstated the team staying at a hotel the night before home games in part to keep a tight control on players.

    link
    My bad. I totally missed your link.But I think there are other comments in that article that tell alot about what's happening on this team. The following comment suggests things aren't right:

    It likely had nothing to do with the loss, but it doesn't look good for a team mired in an underwhelming season.

    Sounds like even Acee thinks things are a problem and he is not quick to criticize. I wonder where he thinks the responsibility lands on this "underwhelming" season?
  23. Here's an interesting read (posted at PFT) from the Chargers local media:

    POSTED 12:58 p.m. EST, November 13, 2007

    LACK OF DISCIPLINE IN SAN DIEGO? by Michael David Smith

    The story didn't get much attention, but Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune reported on Sunday that some Chargers players stayed out past curfew last Friday in Minneapolis, 36 hours before the team turned in its worst performance of the season in a loss to the Vikings.

    Jim Trotter of Sports Illustrated reported during an appearance today on ESPN First Take that one of those players was linebacker Shawne Merriman.

    According to Acee, the team responded to the curfew violation by not only fining the players involved, but also firing director of security Mike Cash, whose job description includes overseeing the security guards on the players' floor at the team's hotel and ensuring that the players are in on time.

    Whether or not there's any link between the players staying out late and their weak performance against the Vikings, this raises the question of whether there's enough discipline on the Chargers.

    Marty Schottenheimer, the coach the Chargers fired after last season's 14-2 record and first-round playoff loss, is known for having a good relationship with his players but also for running a tight ship. Norv Turner, the coach brought in to replace Schottenheimer, doesn't have that reputation. Jerry Rice, who played for Turner on the Raiders, once said that Turner "had no control" over the team.

    Neither Turner nor General Manager A.J. Smith (who made the decision to fire Cash), would discuss the curfew violations. But if the Turner-coached Chargers don't start playing more like last year's Schottenheimer-coached Chargers, the questions about whether there's enough discipline in San Diego are not going away.

    Confirmed that Merriman was one of them. "Sources have confirmed that the players in question were Drayton Florence, Antonio Gates, Cletis Gordon, Shawne Merriman, Carlos Polk, Brandon Siler and Jamal Williams . They were each fined $1,500." It was on Friday night. The team got to the hotel from the airport after 9:30 PM, and curfew was midnight. Those seven players stayed out until 12:30 AM. It has happened a number of times over the last several years, so this is not a Marty vs. Norv issue. (link)
    How can you be sure? What are you basing your opinion on? The article suggests it is an issue with Norv. So I'll allow you to argue with the media on this one. And yet I'm not surprised that you would take this position.
  24. ....NO is clearly in the playoff hunt in the NFC. not sure of your point here. I could grab Rivers stats from the Bolts four losses and they would look horrible as well. Right now brees is the better QB, right now as a charger fan is what I care about. Right now if SD had Brees/Marty instead of Rivers/norv we would have a better chance to compete for a Superbowl.

    Man BSS, you (and other Charger fans) have really really got to stop looking backward and start looking forward. What's done...is done. You've got Rivers and Norv, you've got to make that work.Personally my take on this whole thing; there's a factor that's being somewhat ignored in the Rivers v. Brees debate. And that's the fact that this year in particular Rivers is dealing with a coaching change. Maybe it's just me, but I think a HUGE part of SD's troubles stem from simple playcalling and familiarity of the coaching staff with the weapons they've got. I think there are some SERIOUS communication problems going on between the new coaching staff and the players. It really doesn't look like a happy ship where both sides come together, develop a plan, buy into the plan, practice the plan, and then execute it on gameday. There's something seriously amiss, and Rivers # are paying for it (as well as his confidence). Anyone that thinks he looks anything the QB he was last year needs to take off the River-colored glasses. He's seeing phantom pressure at this point, and whoever made the point that he has serious velocity problems when throwing off of poor footing - falling backward, sideways, pressure around his feet - is DEAD ON.I think eventually Norv and Co. will get comfortable. I think that will make Rivers and his O-line comfortable. When? Who knows, I think we'll see it happen before the end of this season. The real question is...in time to make sure they slide into the playoffs? Or will it be too late?
    :confused:
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