✍ Knowshon Moreno to season ending IR. (2 Viewers)

[duaneok66]

Comical thread. Miller was no more than mediocre LAST year and now they sign a guy for 3mil who can play all three downs.

Some people suggest this is "insurance".

Funny stuff.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

As a Phinsfan who watched them all I'll weigh in on this.

1. Like the Moreno signing and with his ability to pass protect coupled with a suspect OL right now, he is a valuable asset and I think he will see at least 50% of the snaps especially when Miami wants to throw the football.

-His receptions though are going to take a plunge and I say that because Tannehill not only is bad at connecting on the deep ball but he also is not great at dump off passes. he is best at throwing slant and intermediate routes at the moment. Assuming Moreno is healthy all year which is a big IF based on every year except last where he started 15 games with a future HoF QB who set the single season passing record in several categories, you would be a fool to pencil him in for 60/548 again...I would cut it in half and then add a few for his possible window. Maybe 30-40 if he can be the guy in Miami.

2. Lamar Miller had his chance and he didn't do a lot with it. The OL was in flux but they actually were better after the debacle. I would expect Miller to be the guy who is out there every 3rd drive and then maybe alternate a little more if Moreno is on a long sustained drive and needs a breather. Moreno turn 27 in July, he is in his prime, Miller was a 4th round selection, Moreno a 1st rounder. That doesn't mean a lot at this point but they are not paying Moreno $3.5M to sit behind Miller. Miami has to get better running the ball and they lost 3 games that would have put them in the playoffs last year, all of them at home to BAL, CAR, and BUF...they could not hold the lead late and could not run the ball.

Is Moreno the answer? Who knows but he is likely an improvement and playing behind Manning couldn't hurt. I expect him to start and do OK, I would think something like 800-900 yds rush, 300 rec, maybe 6-7 TD if things go well. Miller will see maybe 150-175 carries which is close to what he had last year, something like 600-700 yds rush, a few receptions, and you can count on one hand the number of TDs he will have.

RBBC? I don't think it will be that so much as a 60/40 type split or 2 drives Moreno, 1 drive Miller, that would be in line with what Miami did last year when they were rotating starts for their RBs. Thomas will see a little action as well, probably competing with Miller for the RB2 role here, Gillislee will be lucky to make the team. If Miami were to find a guy in the draft they could not pass up, then you could push Thomas out of here(2nd round waste) and Miller would be the RB3 and fighting for his roster spot. Miami has very little wrapped up in Miller(4th round pick).

Good luck.

 

[Slapdash]

Great stuff MOP. I'm a little more optimistic about his chances in the passing game. Given the state of the OL, he is going to be in a lot of passing downs where his blocking and ability to screen against the rush is going to be huge.

I'm still not sure there is much to see in Miller....wouldn't rule out another addition...

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Great stuff MOP. I'm a little more optimistic about his chances in the passing game. Given the state of the OL, he is going to be in a lot of passing downs where his blocking and ability to screen against the rush is going to be huge.

I'm still not sure there is much to see in Miller....wouldn't rule out another addition...

Moreno's ability to stay healthy and start 14 games will have a big impact. I also am tempering enthusiasm but 1,200 total yes, 75 per game in this offense would be solid for him. He could improve but I would not be reaching for him in FF. I care more about the actual on the field intangibles and he certainly has a lot going for him in the passing game where I can see him getting a lot of snaps with pass protection skills and decent hands. But look at his numbers pre-Manning, nothing to write home about.

 

[monk]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

You know what would speak more? Drafting a RB of Miller's size and skillset. Moreno's a bum. Miller might be but we know Moreno is. If Manning had not shown up, he would have been cut from the team.

Moreno had as many total yards and more TDs in his rookie season with Kyle Orton @ QB than Lamar Miller has had in his first 2 seasons combined.

Let's face it ... your dynasty pick @ RB is a bust and Moreno will be a 3 down back in Miami

 

[biju]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

You know what would speak more? Drafting a RB of Miller's size and skillset. Moreno's a bum. Miller might be but we know Moreno is. If Manning had not shown up, he would have been cut from the team.

Moreno had as many total yards and more TDs in his rookie season with Kyle Orton @ QB than Lamar Miller has had in his first 2 seasons combined.

Let's face it ... your dynasty pick @ RB is a bust and Moreno will be a 3 down back in Miami

Why does this suddenly feel like last year when people were predicting Rashard Mendenhall was going to get 1,300 YFS in Arizona?

 

[monk]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

You know what would speak more? Drafting a RB of Miller's size and skillset. Moreno's a bum. Miller might be but we know Moreno is. If Manning had not shown up, he would have been cut from the team.

Moreno had as many total yards and more TDs in his rookie season with Kyle Orton @ QB than Lamar Miller has had in his first 2 seasons combined.

Let's face it ... your dynasty pick @ RB is a bust and Moreno will be a 3 down back in Miami

Why does this suddenly feel like last year when people were predicting Rashard Mendenhall was going to get 1,300 YFS in Arizona?

What? How did you derive that from this conversation? Where do you see yardage predictions?

 

[lod01]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

You know what would speak more? Drafting a RB of Miller's size and skillset. Moreno's a bum. Miller might be but we know Moreno is. If Manning had not shown up, he would have been cut from the team.

Moreno had as many total yards and more TDs in his rookie season with Kyle Orton @ QB than Lamar Miller has had in his first 2 seasons combined.

Let's face it ... your dynasty pick @ RB is a bust and Moreno will be a 3 down back in Miami

LOL. You mean the guy I got by trading away Marlon Brown. As you can see, you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[msudaisy26]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

You know what would speak more? Drafting a RB of Miller's size and skillset. Moreno's a bum. Miller might be but we know Moreno is. If Manning had not shown up, he would have been cut from the team.

Moreno had as many total yards and more TDs in his rookie season with Kyle Orton @ QB than Lamar Miller has had in his first 2 seasons combined.

Let's face it ... your dynasty pick @ RB is a bust and Moreno will be a 3 down back in Miami

Why does this suddenly feel like last year when people were predicting Rashard Mendenhall was going to get 1,300 YFS in Arizona?

What? How did you derive that from this conversation? Where do you see yardage predictions?

He said this feels like last year when people were predicting what Mendenhall would do, things can be similar but not exactly the same.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

You know what would speak more? Drafting a RB of Miller's size and skillset. Moreno's a bum. Miller might be but we know Moreno is. If Manning had not shown up, he would have been cut from the team.

I get that you like Lamar Miller, but calling Moreno a bum is a little silly. Especially coming off of 1600 yards and 13 TDs, regardless of how awesome the offense was. That's about 400 more yards and 13 more TDs than Miller has had in 2 seasons as a pro, granted one of them was his rookie year. Even if you only look at Moreno's first 2 seasons for a more fair comparison, he had 1100-1200 more yards and 14 more TDs than Miller in his first 2. Blame some of that on Miami's OL issues, but the disparity is still huge there.

1600 and 13 TDs is a great season in any offense, and if you can produce it, I think you should get immunity from being called a "bum" prior to the next season.

 

[Clutchfanatic]

Lamar Miller averaged 4.1 ypc with arguably the worst OL in the game. His 2014 YPC will be better than Moreno's. Hope they got him cheap. They got rid of problem #1 - Mike Sherman, earlier this year.

I watched every snap of what was maybe one of the more painful seasons to watch due to

1) The blatent ineptitude of Mike Sherman's playcalling and inability to adapt to what defenses were giving him

2) The worst Dolphins OL I have ever seen in all the years I have watched this team (starting in 1975).

3) The obvious fact that Joe Philbin is no leader of men. And no question in my mind....he will be axed after this upcoming season. He will not only have to make the post season....but win in the post season to have any inkling of a shot to retain his job.

Miller when given the opportunity of touches performed save for the opener in Cleveland.....they never committed to him 100%......ever. Daniel Thomas was forced fed....why I don't know. He is a worthless RB in the NFL.....no speed, no wiggle, no agility.....he brought nothing to the table....and I will be shocked if he makes the team this season.

Again......Miller has many detractors. And he is not a pile mover....but neither are many backs in this league. Moreno is certainly no pile mover either. Miller is too young to be written off just yet. But like I mentioned above....he must improve certain aspects of his game....and at 22 years old.....he is certainly young enough to correct some things.

Again 22 years old.

I love you.

 

[saintfool]

Moreno looks to be the 3-down back in Miami this year.This doesn't mean Miller isn't without value with their new OC. This also doesn't mean Miller is done in the league either. If you have a deep bench then hold. He's in an interesting situation and time in his career. I'll be interested to see what his value is this time next year.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Moreno looks to be the 3-down back in Miami this year.This doesn't mean Miller isn't without value with their new OC. This also doesn't mean Miller is done in the league either. If you have a deep bench then hold. He's in an interesting situation and time in his career. I'll be interested to see what his value is this time next year.

But Moreno cannot hold up as a 3 down back. 15, 13, 9, 6, and 2 are the season totals for games started. He's never started 16 games, he can be 1st and 2nd drive guy maybe. Miller will see time unless Miami drafts a dynamic RB which I wouldn't put past them after they draft a RT in the 1st, they can go RB in the 2nd if they find the right guy, come back at OG/C maybe in the 3rd.

I would like to see what they do in May before getting too hyped on Moreno. I'm happy they got him but I am not expecting miracles He will be the 3rd down back however throughout the game and in most passing situations as long as he is healthy.

 

[jurb26]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

You know what would speak more? Drafting a RB of Miller's size and skillset. Moreno's a bum. Miller might be but we know Moreno is. If Manning had not shown up, he would have been cut from the team.

I get that you like Lamar Miller, but calling Moreno a bum is a little silly. Especially coming off of 1600 yards and 13 TDs, regardless of how awesome the offense was. That's about 400 more yards and 13 more TDs than Miller has had in 2 seasons as a pro, granted one of them was his rookie year. Even if you only look at Moreno's first 2 seasons for a more fair comparison, he had 1100-1200 more yards and 14 more TDs than Miller in his first 2. Blame some of that on Miami's OL issues, but the disparity is still huge there.1600 and 13 TDs is a great season in any offense, and if you can produce it, I think you should get immunity from being called a "bum" prior to the next season.

Bum is harsh but we've seen plenty of one year wonder types at RB over the years. I think that's what Moreno will prove to be as well.

 

[TheFanatic]

Comical thread. Miller was no more than mediocre LAST year and now they sign a guy for 3mil who can play all three downs.

Some people suggest this is "insurance".

Funny stuff.

Exactly. The guy got 15 starts last year and didn't top 800 yards. The team signs a new OC and they promptly sign a guy coming off a 1600 yard season and people think the guy is insurance OR a 3rd down back to Miller's 1st and 2nd down carries. What has Miller done to earn the starter position?

The BEST scenario for Miller is if there's a RB competition. And that may still wind up being a RBBC, that is if Miller can show he's good enough to be part of that committee.

 

[saintfool]

Moreno looks to be the 3-down back in Miami this year.This doesn't mean Miller isn't without value with their new OC. This also doesn't mean Miller is done in the league either. If you have a deep bench then hold. He's in an interesting situation and time in his career. I'll be interested to see what his value is this time next year.

But Moreno cannot hold up as a 3 down back. 15, 13, 9, 6, and 2 are the season totals for games started. He's never started 16 games, he can be 1st and 2nd drive guy maybe. Miller will see time unless Miami drafts a dynamic RB which I wouldn't put past them after they draft a RT in the 1st, they can go RB in the 2nd if they find the right guy, come back at OG/C maybe in the 3rd.

I would like to see what they do in May before getting too hyped on Moreno. I'm happy they got him but I am not expecting miracles He will be the 3rd down back however throughout the game and in most passing situations as long as he is healthy.

The GM said they view him as a 3-down back. Whether he can hold up to it is another matter altogether. Miller or Thomas will get carries in as part of a likely high-volume running attack.

 

[Slapdash]

Moreno looks to be the 3-down back in Miami this year.This doesn't mean Miller isn't without value with their new OC. This also doesn't mean Miller is done in the league either. If you have a deep bench then hold. He's in an interesting situation and time in his career. I'll be interested to see what his value is this time next year.

But Moreno cannot hold up as a 3 down back. 15, 13, 9, 6, and 2 are the season totals for games started. He's never started 16 games, he can be 1st and 2nd drive guy maybe. Miller will see time unless Miami drafts a dynamic RB which I wouldn't put past them after they draft a RT in the 1st, they can go RB in the 2nd if they find the right guy, come back at OG/C maybe in the 3rd.

I would like to see what they do in May before getting too hyped on Moreno. I'm happy they got him but I am not expecting miracles He will be the 3rd down back however throughout the game and in most passing situations as long as he is healthy.

The GM said they view him as a 3-down back. Whether he can hold up to it is another matter altogether. Miller or Thomas will get carries in as part of a likely high-volume running attack.

I can't really see either as the second option by the time week 1 comes around. These backs just performed so poorly last year, more competition is going to brought it. Miller is going to need a great camp,but I still think there is some potential there.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Moreno looks to be the 3-down back in Miami this year.This doesn't mean Miller isn't without value with their new OC. This also doesn't mean Miller is done in the league either. If you have a deep bench then hold. He's in an interesting situation and time in his career. I'll be interested to see what his value is this time next year.

But Moreno cannot hold up as a 3 down back. 15, 13, 9, 6, and 2 are the season totals for games started. He's never started 16 games, he can be 1st and 2nd drive guy maybe. Miller will see time unless Miami drafts a dynamic RB which I wouldn't put past them after they draft a RT in the 1st, they can go RB in the 2nd if they find the right guy, come back at OG/C maybe in the 3rd.

I would like to see what they do in May before getting too hyped on Moreno. I'm happy they got him but I am not expecting miracles He will be the 3rd down back however throughout the game and in most passing situations as long as he is healthy.

The GM said they view him as a 3-down back. Whether he can hold up to it is another matter altogether. Miller or Thomas will get carries in as part of a likely high-volume running attack.

How many carries do you pencil him in for and receptions? He is a 3 down back, I don't disagree but you are assuming he will take every snap and that is not going to happen by a long shot. He will do what a lot of RBs do and that's start the game on Drive 1, Drive 2, typically another RB comes in for Drive 3, back to Moreno on drive 4 of the game...he will rotate drives throughout the game.

Also the immense heat and humidity in Miami compared to the cool to cold climate in Denver doesn't allow any RB to hog it all down here. I never said he wasn't a 3 down back, he will see action even on Miller/RB2 drives when it is a passing situation so I think Moreno will be given breathers even on drive he starts in Dolphins territory.

I'm just keeping it real here SF. And then you factor in Moreno has started double digit number of games twice in 5 years...he's not the most durable dude in the NFL. Do you see him duplicating his numbers from last year? I certainly do not.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

but you are assuming he will take every snap and that is not going to happen by a long shot. He will do what a lot of RBs do and that's start the game on Drive 1, Drive 2, typically another RB comes in for Drive 3, back to Moreno on drive 4 of the game...he will rotate drives throughout the game.

I don't think anyone thinks Moreno is going to take every snap, nor does calling him a "3 down back" imply that he will.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

but you are assuming he will take every snap and that is not going to happen by a long shot. He will do what a lot of RBs do and that's start the game on Drive 1, Drive 2, typically another RB comes in for Drive 3, back to Moreno on drive 4 of the game...he will rotate drives throughout the game.

I don't think anyone thinks Moreno is going to take every snap, nor does calling him a "3 down back" imply that he will.

Assuming the Phins go for it on 4th down at times he's probably a 4 down back

 

[Eminence]

Moreno is going to be penciled in for some serious touches. He's not as explosive as Miller but is much more fundamental. There's little doubt that Moreno isn't the lead back this season, looking at the Bengals force feed BJGE touches because of recently signing him is evidence enough for me.

He's going to show up to Miami with a chip on his shoulder and keep Tannehil upright. I would assume in a full time role he can get anywhere between 6 - 8 Touchdowns.

As far as his talent goes, running the football, I think he does a fair job. Nothing he does is going to wow you but he has a little shake n' bake to him along with the ability to get physical for that extra yard or two. I think people forget he's 220 lbs. He's a fairly polished runner for his size.

 

[Bronco Billy]

As a guy who admittedly whiffed on Moreno last year and expected Ball to displace him early on, I'd be selling Moreno right now as he has moved on to what appears to be a starting job in Miami and before TC has started.

Moreno did miss games prior to last season due to injury, but he was also a healthy scratch a significant portion of the time. In 2012 he was at the point that he was on the roster bubble and had sunk behind Hillman and Lance Ball on the depth chart.

Before we start deluding ourselves that Moreno is starting quality in a normal offense, let's make sure that we take into account that because he operated in DEN's record setting passing O - that by ESPN's review he was running against 6 or less in the box on almost 80% of his rushes - and still only managed 4.3 ypc. In the second half of the season when Ball finally got a comfort level in the offense and the trust of Manning, Ball's rushing production was much better despite his getting the short yardage work.

Moreno still has some serious issues running between the tackles. People are wondering why DEN wouldn't resign him when they are in a championship window and he came relatively cheap. They wonder why there was almost literally no interest in the league for his services as a FA. It's because NFL GMs don't worry about FF stats, they worry about actual productivity.

DEN's pinball numbers passing game hid Moreno's flaws and emphasized his strengths. I don't think you're going to see anywhere near that kind of protection of his flaws in MIA, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Moreno relegated to a CoP role once they see how he functions in a normal offense - if we can call MIA's O normal.

Get what you can for him while his value is still relatively high and before all your league mates get to see in TC and preseason what DEN's and now the rest of the NFL has seen in regard to how he fits into a regular O.

 

[Shutout]

OK, so the theory here is that Lamar Miller is not a chump. He just played behind a bad line. And that this new OC will use him better and we will see the real Lamar Miller.

The question I have to ask is this. If the new OC decides they need another RB, doesn't that speak volumes as to what that OC thinks of Lamar Miller? I realize that Moreno signed for peanuts (as did every other FA RB), but a guy coming off 1600 yards is probably not going to be the 3rd down back to Miller. But that's just me.

I have little doubt Lamar Miller is a better back than he showed last season. He definitely has more upside left. He is still quite young by NFL standards. I am sure it will be an open competition and I would not be surprised to see a full blown RBBC.

Make no mistake…..this is it for Lamar Miller. Either he improves upon last year and makes a claim to the job or he becomes a memory. I think the signing is very solid and clearly due to the ineptness of Daniel Thomas. Not Lamar Miller.

Knowshon's situation was incredible. He is now going to a far worse situation……hopefully the Fins improve the OL big time…..ir it won't matter who is toting the rock.

I believe a big mistake we often make in fantasy is looking at these RBs and say things like they are young and have upside. That probably matters the least with Rbs as it does with any other position on the field because, in real life, these guys are absolutely interchangeable with the exception of the truly elite. All these guys are young and have talent coming in. That is why they get drafted. But even when we the fantasy guys look at these rbs and say "he's only 25; he's young", that is a mistake because the NFL is looking at them and saying "we have three years of film on this guy and we can go draft a 21 year old just like him for cheaper next month.

For every guy that the fantasy community gets rewarded with by sticking and holding a guy for multiple years, there are 50 Beanie Wells out there. It just doesn't happen often for that position. You are probably more likely to strike gold by picking up a Bobby Rainey, Arian Foster, etc type player off a waiver wire than you are holding a LeShoure, Wells, Daniel Thomas, Miller type because their story is written so much sooner than these other guys. For Miller and those guys, they had their shot and there is a reason they didn't make themselves look indispensable to the team. These other guys are worth it to NFL teams to say "well, we know what we have on the team, let's see if this Foster kid can play."

 

[Shutout]

As a guy who admittedly whiffed on Moreno last year and expected Ball to displace him early on, I'd be selling Moreno right now as he has moved on to what appears to be a starting job in Miami and before TC has started.

Moreno did miss games prior to last season due to injury, but he was also a healthy scratch a significant portion of the time. In 2012 he was at the point that he was on the roster bubble and had sunk behind Hillman and Lance Ball on the depth chart.

Before we start deluding ourselves that Moreno is starting quality in a normal offense, let's make sure that we take into account that because he operated in DEN's record setting passing O - that by ESPN's review he was running against 6 or less in the box on almost 80% of his rushes - and still only managed 4.3 ypc. In the second half of the season when Ball finally got a comfort level in the offense and the trust of Manning, Ball's rushing production was much better despite his getting the short yardage work.

Moreno still has some serious issues running between the tackles. People are wondering why DEN wouldn't resign him when they are in a championship window and he came relatively cheap. They wonder why there was almost literally no interest in the league for his services as a FA. It's because NFL GMs don't worry about FF stats, they worry about actual productivity.

DEN's pinball numbers passing game hid Moreno's flaws and emphasized his strengths. I don't think you're going to see anywhere near that kind of protection of his flaws in MIA, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Moreno relegated to a CoP role once they see how he functions in a normal offense - if we can call MIA's O normal.

Get what you can for him while his value is still relatively high and before all your league mates get to see in TC and preseason what DEN's and now the rest of the NFL has seen in regard to how he fits into a regular O.

As a guy who didn't whiff on Moreno last year, I agree with the idea to sell him now but some of the things you mention need cleared up if people want to really understand this situation.

Moreno was not a "healthy scratch" before last year. He was healthy enough to not go to IR and he did that because the Broncos knew McGahee was running out of gas and they had no faith in Hillman. They just simply needed someone and they thought, if pressed, he was healthy "enough" to come in and at least pass protect (which is the thing they have always known they had in him).

Ball may have been more effective by the numbers at the end of the year running but he had the major advantage of being a fresh, young player that hadn't grinded through 2/3 of the season already and by the time he stepped in, the gameplan on the Broncos was already known and teams were giving the run more than ever. When you compare what Lacy was doing despite NOT having Rodgers vs. what Ball was doing WITH Manning, It is reasonable we should have expected much more, not just statistically better. And, even at the end of the year, Ball still had issue pass protecting and holding on to the ball.

Denver may have made a mistake letting Moreno go given that he wasn't incredibly expensive to retain but it is understandable. They need every penny they can get to fund their "all in" window they have. They also couldn't really keep Moreno without admitting on some level that they MAY have made a mistake with Ball and, don't be foled, ego and perception still drive decisions sometimes. And, if nothing else, they DID need to let Moreno walk if they want to give Ball a shot because here's the truth, pure and simple: Had Moreno resigned, Ball was limited. And that should tell us what Ball really is and temper the hype on him. It might be a mistake for Denver to let him go but it is an understandable one.

Moreno goes to Miami on a cheap, short-term deal and steps in to a situation where he can be used up and help protect tannehill while they fix their O-line. Quietly, this may be one of the best signings any team in the NFL made this offseason in terms of identifying and addressing a team need.

 

[Bronco Billy]

As a guy who admittedly whiffed on Moreno last year and expected Ball to displace him early on, I'd be selling Moreno right now as he has moved on to what appears to be a starting job in Miami and before TC has started.

Moreno did miss games prior to last season due to injury, but he was also a healthy scratch a significant portion of the time. In 2012 he was at the point that he was on the roster bubble and had sunk behind Hillman and Lance Ball on the depth chart.

Before we start deluding ourselves that Moreno is starting quality in a normal offense, let's make sure that we take into account that because he operated in DEN's record setting passing O - that by ESPN's review he was running against 6 or less in the box on almost 80% of his rushes - and still only managed 4.3 ypc. In the second half of the season when Ball finally got a comfort level in the offense and the trust of Manning, Ball's rushing production was much better despite his getting the short yardage work.

Moreno still has some serious issues running between the tackles. People are wondering why DEN wouldn't resign him when they are in a championship window and he came relatively cheap. They wonder why there was almost literally no interest in the league for his services as a FA. It's because NFL GMs don't worry about FF stats, they worry about actual productivity.

DEN's pinball numbers passing game hid Moreno's flaws and emphasized his strengths. I don't think you're going to see anywhere near that kind of protection of his flaws in MIA, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Moreno relegated to a CoP role once they see how he functions in a normal offense - if we can call MIA's O normal.

Get what you can for him while his value is still relatively high and before all your league mates get to see in TC and preseason what DEN's and now the rest of the NFL has seen in regard to how he fits into a regular O.

As a guy who didn't whiff on Moreno last year, I agree with the idea to sell him now but some of the things you mention need cleared up if people want to really understand this situation. Moreno was not a "healthy scratch" before last year. He was healthy enough to not go to IR and he did that because the Broncos knew McGahee was running out of gas and they had no faith in Hillman. They just simply needed someone and they thought, if pressed, he was healthy "enough" to come in and at least pass protect (which is the thing they have always known they had in him).

Ball may have been more effective by the numbers at the end of the year running but he had the major advantage of being a fresh, young player that hadn't grinded through 2/3 of the season already and by the time he stepped in, the gameplan on the Broncos was already known and teams were giving the run more than ever. When you compare what Lacy was doing despite NOT having Rodgers vs. what Ball was doing WITH Manning, It is reasonable we should have expected much more, not just statistically better. And, even at the end of the year, Ball still had issue pass protecting and holding on to the ball.

Denver may have made a mistake letting Moreno go given that he wasn't incredibly expensive to retain but it is understandable. They need every penny they can get to fund their "all in" window they have. They also couldn't really keep Moreno without admitting on some level that they MAY have made a mistake with Ball and, don't be foled, ego and perception still drive decisions sometimes. And, if nothing else, they DID need to let Moreno walk if they want to give Ball a shot because here's the truth, pure and simple: Had Moreno resigned, Ball was limited. And that should tell us what Ball really is and temper the hype on him. It might be a mistake for Denver to let him go but it is an understandable one.

Moreno goes to Miami on a cheap, short-term deal and steps in to a situation where he can be used up and help protect tannehill while they fix their O-line. Quietly, this may be one of the best signings any team in the NFL made this offseason in terms of identifying and addressing a team need.

So your counter argument pimping Moreno is that he can't stay healthy and he can't handle a season long 250 carry workload against a large predominance of diminished fronts. Well, I can see why you like him so much. Your retroactive account of Moreno's history is especially interesting to a DEN fan.

 

[Faust]

Dolphins scouting report: Moreno

By James Walker | ESPN.com

The Miami Dolphins are having a busy offseason signing free agents. But how good are these players?

We are tapping into our NFL Nation reporters to get a full scouting report on Miami’s newest crop of free agents.

Here is ESPN.com Denver Broncos reporter Jeff Legwold on Dolphins projected starting tailback Knowshon Moreno:

“Few players re-made themselves better than Knowshon in his time with the Broncos. Early in Moreno's career, coaches would talk about how his concentration wavered. Moreno missed most of his first two training camps with injuries, pushing him back on the learning curve. Then he tore his ACL in the last game of the 2011 season and had another knee procedure following the 2012 season. When training camp opened last summer, his roster spot was considered shaky. But by then Moreno, who always worked hard but didn’t always focus the way he should, had started to turn the coaches’ opinions of him. When they de-activated him for eight games in 2012, he never complained. He just kept working and performed well after
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4481/willis-mcgaheehttp://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4481/willis-mcgaheeWillis McGahee
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4481/willis-mcgaheehttp://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/4481/willis-mcgahee got hurt that year. Then
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15823/montee-ballhttp://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15823/montee-ballMontee Ball
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15823/montee-ballhttp://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15823/montee-ball missed a blitz pick-up against Seattle in the preseason and
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1428/peyton-manninghttp://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1428/peyton-manningPeyton Manning
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1428/peyton-manninghttp://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1428/peyton-manning got blasted. After that, because Moreno was easily the best back the Broncos had in pass protection, he started getting most of the reps. He stayed healthy all season and was the first player in franchise history to rush for 1,000 yards and have 500 yards receiving in same season in 2013. The Broncos just think Ball is ready to be the guy now.”
According to Legwold, Moreno matured during his time in Denver. Miami could reap the rewards of that this season. Moreno is coming off a career year where he rushed for 1,038 yards and 10 touchdowns. The Dolphins and their 26th-ranked running game would love to have similar production from Moreno this season.

 

[FF Ninja]

As a Phinsfan who watched them all I'll weigh in on this.

-His receptions though are going to take a plunge and I say that because Tannehill not only is bad at connecting on the deep ball but he also is not great at dump off passes.

Sorry to go off topic, but for a guy who claims to watch the team, you just lost a lot of credibility. I expect everyone else to echo this rotoworld-esque blather due to the widely reported problems with Wallace, but Tannehill is actually a very good deep ball passer. He just seems to have a problem with Wallace. If you want to claim superfan, try to be knowledgeable, not just talk like it.

Rookie deep ball numbers

Tannehill was not asked to throw deep much—probably because the Dolphins lacked a deep threat in 2012. He only attempted 51 passes of 20 yards or more, and at just 10.1 percent of his attempts, his was the third-lowest percentage among qualifying quarterbacks last year.

In terms of accuracy, though, he was toward the top of the scale, ranking seventh with 43.1 percent of his throws hitting their target (either caught or dropped).

Last year

Using data from the 2012 season as well as the 2013 season, we find that among the 31 passers that have attempted at least 50 deep passes during those years, Tannehill’s accuracy percentage (40.0 percent) ranks 17th in a tie with Robert Griffin III.

[see article for data table]

As you can see from the above data, Tannehill seems to be much more accurate when throwing deep to Brian Hartline as opposed to Wallace. He is also much more accurate with his deep passes thrown toward the likes of Davone Bess, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews, Brandon Gibson, etc.

In fact, going back to the group of passers isolated above, if one were to tally only Tannehill’s accuracy statistics from players not named Wallace, the resulting percentage (44.1 percent) would rank sixth in the group of 31 quarterbacks.

I feel like some sort of Tannehill bandwagoner because I have to keep pointing this out to people, but really, I just stumbled across these numbers and feel obligated to correct people spouting off uninformed nonsense.

Back to the topic, I may have stated it elsewhere already, but I think Moreno gets the bulk of the workload in Miami next year, but I think Miller will look good as the CoP back and I think he'll be first in line should Moreno get hurt, which shouldn't shock anyone. He's struggled with injuries quite a bit in the past. Even when he was on his nice little stretch run in 2012 after McGahee got hurt, Moreno got hurt in the first playoff game, I believe. I think he only had 5 or 6 starts before getting hurt that season. I like Moreno because doesn't everybody like a comeback story? I avoided him like the plague when he came into the league. Last year was the first year I drafted him and it was nice to see him put together a season like that. It's a shame he wasn't able to parlay it into a better contract. Amazing really.

But if Moreno does get hurt, I think Miller will shine put up RB2 numbers if the line is improved and the new OC is moderately capable. But I do think Moreno will be good for the offense as a whole. He'll pass protect and he won't lose yards. It would be best for the team that he stay healthy and let Miller do his thing as a CoP back. But if he gets hurt and Miller looks good, then I think Miller has a good shot at the job in 2015.

 

[Bronco Billy]

As a Phinsfan who watched them all I'll weigh in on this.

-His receptions though are going to take a plunge and I say that because Tannehill not only is bad at connecting on the deep ball but he also is not great at dump off passes.

Sorry to go off topic, but for a guy who claims to watch the team, you just lost a lot of credibility. I expect everyone else to echo this rotoworld-esque blather due to the widely reported problems with Wallace, but Tannehill is actually a very good deep ball passer. He just seems to have a problem with Wallace. If you want to claim superfan, try to be knowledgeable, not just talk like it.

Rookie deep ball numbers

Tannehill was not asked to throw deep muchprobably because the Dolphins lacked a deep threat in 2012. He only attempted 51 passes of 20 yards or more, and at just 10.1 percent of his attempts, his was the third-lowest percentage among qualifying quarterbacks last year.

In terms of accuracy, though, he was toward the top of the scale, ranking seventh with 43.1 percent of his throws hitting their target (either caught or dropped).

Last year

Using data from the 2012 season as well as the 2013 season, we find that among the 31 passers that have attempted at least 50 deep passes during those years, Tannehills accuracy percentage (40.0 percent) ranks 17th in a tie with Robert Griffin III.

[see article for data table]

As you can see from the above data, Tannehill seems to be much more accurate when throwing deep to Brian Hartline as opposed to Wallace. He is also much more accurate with his deep passes thrown toward the likes of Davone Bess, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews, Brandon Gibson, etc.

In fact, going back to the group of passers isolated above, if one were to tally only Tannehills accuracy statistics from players not named Wallace, the resulting percentage (44.1 percent) would rank sixth in the group of 31 quarterbacks.

I feel like some sort of Tannehill bandwagoner because I have to keep pointing this out to people, but really, I just stumbled across these numbers and feel obligated to correct people spouting off uninformed nonsense.

Now that's fascinating. A guy who resoundingly diminished others for their credibility and then presents mediocre at best numbers unless they are thoroughly cherry picked , and cherry picked in a manner that excluded the QB that he is propping up being able to properly utilize a well documented proven weapon , and usurps the high road in credibility and acumen while doing it.

Tough to put a label on it, but chutzpah seems pretty appropriate.

FWIW - I have absolutely no dog in this fight and am at most mildly curious to see how Tannehill develops.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Last year

Using data from the 2012 season as well as the 2013 season, we find that among the 31 passers that have attempted at least 50 deep passes during those years, Tannehill’s accuracy percentage (40.0 percent) ranks 17th in a tie with Robert Griffin III.

[see article for data table]

As you can see from the above data, Tannehill seems to be much more accurate when throwing deep to Brian Hartline as opposed to Wallace. He is also much more accurate with his deep passes thrown toward the likes of Davone Bess, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews, Brandon Gibson, etc.

In fact, going back to the group of passers isolated above, if one were to tally only Tannehill’s accuracy statistics from players not named Wallace, the resulting percentage (44.1 percent) would rank sixth in the group of 31 quarterbacks.

I'm not sure this is a resounding dispute of Tannelhill's deep ball accuary. 17th?

Also that last paragraph is a little weird - so Tannehill's deep ball accuarcy is good, outside of when he's throwing to one of the best deep ball threats in the league? What does that even mean? Why would one exclude the passess thrown to Wallace when assessing Tannehill's deep ball accuracy?

 

[gandalas]

I took a gamble on Ball in both my Dynasty leagues.

It just paid off.

Unless you got him cheaply from someone who shortsightedly traded him last year after Moreno took the starting job, you probably paid top-5 or so rookie pick for him last year. You didn't make a gamble, his cost should have been about the same unless you got him from some stupid dynasty owner. It isn't like Jennings or Gerhart where you could have gotten them for almost nothing last year...

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I took a gamble on Ball in both my Dynasty leagues.

It just paid off.

Unless you got him cheaply from someone who shortsightedly traded him last year after Moreno took the starting job, you probably paid top-5 or so rookie pick for him last year. You didn't make a gamble, his cost should have been about the same unless you got him from some stupid dynasty owner. It isn't like Jennings or Gerhart where you could have gotten them for almost nothing last year...

I also don't know how his gamble on Ball just paid off, since he is currently tied for last in fantasy points for RBs.

 

[Gawain]

Last year

Using data from the 2012 season as well as the 2013 season, we find that among the 31 passers that have attempted at least 50 deep passes during those years, Tannehill’s accuracy percentage (40.0 percent) ranks 17th in a tie with Robert Griffin III.

[see article for data table]

As you can see from the above data, Tannehill seems to be much more accurate when throwing deep to Brian Hartline as opposed to Wallace. He is also much more accurate with his deep passes thrown toward the likes of Davone Bess, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews, Brandon Gibson, etc.

In fact, going back to the group of passers isolated above, if one were to tally only Tannehill’s accuracy statistics from players not named Wallace, the resulting percentage (44.1 percent) would rank sixth in the group of 31 quarterbacks.

I'm not sure this is a resounding dispute of Tannelhill's deep ball accuary. 17th?

Also that last paragraph is a little weird - so Tannehill's deep ball accuarcy is good, outside of when he's throwing to one of the best deep ball threats in the league? What does that even mean? Why would one exclude the passess thrown to Wallace when assessing Tannehill's deep ball accuracy?

Yeah, this data doesn't pass the smell test, at least not without more facts.

For his rookie year, I'd expect those towards the bottom of deep attempts to have a decent completion percentage because it'd be even more unexpected. I'd like to see the rankings with names before coming to a conclusion on 2012.

As for 2013, if he performs best with guys who shouldn't be as open downfield, it makes me wonder if the windows he had to throw to Hartline were bigger than the windows with Wallace. Roethlisberger was great at dropping the ball in the proverbial bucket. If Tannehill could only hit Hartline or Clay when the coverage was less than what Wallace generally draws, that's not a convincing argument.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Last year

Using data from the 2012 season as well as the 2013 season, we find that among the 31 passers that have attempted at least 50 deep passes during those years, Tannehill’s accuracy percentage (40.0 percent) ranks 17th in a tie with Robert Griffin III.

[see article for data table]

As you can see from the above data, Tannehill seems to be much more accurate when throwing deep to Brian Hartline as opposed to Wallace. He is also much more accurate with his deep passes thrown toward the likes of Davone Bess, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews, Brandon Gibson, etc.

In fact, going back to the group of passers isolated above, if one were to tally only Tannehill’s accuracy statistics from players not named Wallace, the resulting percentage (44.1 percent) would rank sixth in the group of 31 quarterbacks.

I'm not sure this is a resounding dispute of Tannelhill's deep ball accuary. 17th?

Also that last paragraph is a little weird - so Tannehill's deep ball accuarcy is good, outside of when he's throwing to one of the best deep ball threats in the league? What does that even mean? Why would one exclude the passess thrown to Wallace when assessing Tannehill's deep ball accuracy?

Yeah, this data doesn't pass the smell test, at least not without more facts.

For his rookie year, I'd expect those towards the bottom of deep attempts to have a decent completion percentage because it'd be even more unexpected. I'd like to see the rankings with names before coming to a conclusion on 2012.

As for 2013, if he performs best with guys who shouldn't be as open downfield, it makes me wonder if the windows he had to throw to Hartline were bigger than the windows with Wallace. Roethlisberger was great at dropping the ball in the proverbial bucket. If Tannehill could only hit Hartline or Clay when the coverage was less than what Wallace generally draws, that's not a convincing argument.

..or it could just be a case of randomness/variance/coincidence.

Is the author really suggesting that if Brian Hartlne was actually running those routes where Wallace was trageted deep, the passes would have had a better chance of being completed?

 

[Shutout]

As a guy who admittedly whiffed on Moreno last year and expected Ball to displace him early on, I'd be selling Moreno right now as he has moved on to what appears to be a starting job in Miami and before TC has started.

Moreno did miss games prior to last season due to injury, but he was also a healthy scratch a significant portion of the time. In 2012 he was at the point that he was on the roster bubble and had sunk behind Hillman and Lance Ball on the depth chart.

Before we start deluding ourselves that Moreno is starting quality in a normal offense, let's make sure that we take into account that because he operated in DEN's record setting passing O - that by ESPN's review he was running against 6 or less in the box on almost 80% of his rushes - and still only managed 4.3 ypc. In the second half of the season when Ball finally got a comfort level in the offense and the trust of Manning, Ball's rushing production was much better despite his getting the short yardage work.

Moreno still has some serious issues running between the tackles. People are wondering why DEN wouldn't resign him when they are in a championship window and he came relatively cheap. They wonder why there was almost literally no interest in the league for his services as a FA. It's because NFL GMs don't worry about FF stats, they worry about actual productivity.

DEN's pinball numbers passing game hid Moreno's flaws and emphasized his strengths. I don't think you're going to see anywhere near that kind of protection of his flaws in MIA, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Moreno relegated to a CoP role once they see how he functions in a normal offense - if we can call MIA's O normal.

Get what you can for him while his value is still relatively high and before all your league mates get to see in TC and preseason what DEN's and now the rest of the NFL has seen in regard to how he fits into a regular O.

As a guy who didn't whiff on Moreno last year, I agree with the idea to sell him now but some of the things you mention need cleared up if people want to really understand this situation. Moreno was not a "healthy scratch" before last year. He was healthy enough to not go to IR and he did that because the Broncos knew McGahee was running out of gas and they had no faith in Hillman. They just simply needed someone and they thought, if pressed, he was healthy "enough" to come in and at least pass protect (which is the thing they have always known they had in him).

Ball may have been more effective by the numbers at the end of the year running but he had the major advantage of being a fresh, young player that hadn't grinded through 2/3 of the season already and by the time he stepped in, the gameplan on the Broncos was already known and teams were giving the run more than ever. When you compare what Lacy was doing despite NOT having Rodgers vs. what Ball was doing WITH Manning, It is reasonable we should have expected much more, not just statistically better. And, even at the end of the year, Ball still had issue pass protecting and holding on to the ball.

Denver may have made a mistake letting Moreno go given that he wasn't incredibly expensive to retain but it is understandable. They need every penny they can get to fund their "all in" window they have. They also couldn't really keep Moreno without admitting on some level that they MAY have made a mistake with Ball and, don't be foled, ego and perception still drive decisions sometimes. And, if nothing else, they DID need to let Moreno walk if they want to give Ball a shot because here's the truth, pure and simple: Had Moreno resigned, Ball was limited. And that should tell us what Ball really is and temper the hype on him. It might be a mistake for Denver to let him go but it is an understandable one.

Moreno goes to Miami on a cheap, short-term deal and steps in to a situation where he can be used up and help protect tannehill while they fix their O-line. Quietly, this may be one of the best signings any team in the NFL made this offseason in terms of identifying and addressing a team need.

So your counter argument pimping Moreno is that he can't stay healthy and he can't handle a season long 250 carry workload against a large predominance of diminished fronts.Well, I can see why you like him so much. Your retroactive account of Moreno's history is especially interesting to a DEN fan.

I feel like that entire statement should have been from ME to YOU. I didn't say he couldn't stay healthy or won't. I did not say I like him or not. I just clarified. I mean, hey, you are the Broncos fan, not me but it seems like the Denver fan should be the one that understands this better but I can tell you, go back and read the posts from last year...I had this thing pegged from the get go and if you truly think that Moreno was honestly healthy and was just so bad that he was on a roster bubble and clearly behind Hillman then you are just not following your team correctly.

 

[Bob Magaw]

As a guy who admittedly whiffed on Moreno last year and expected Ball to displace him early on, I'd be selling Moreno right now as he has moved on to what appears to be a starting job in Miami and before TC has started.

Moreno did miss games prior to last season due to injury, but he was also a healthy scratch a significant portion of the time. In 2012 he was at the point that he was on the roster bubble and had sunk behind Hillman and Lance Ball on the depth chart.

Before we start deluding ourselves that Moreno is starting quality in a normal offense, let's make sure that we take into account that because he operated in DEN's record setting passing O - that by ESPN's review he was running against 6 or less in the box on almost 80% of his rushes - and still only managed 4.3 ypc. In the second half of the season when Ball finally got a comfort level in the offense and the trust of Manning, Ball's rushing production was much better despite his getting the short yardage work.

Moreno still has some serious issues running between the tackles. People are wondering why DEN wouldn't resign him when they are in a championship window and he came relatively cheap. They wonder why there was almost literally no interest in the league for his services as a FA. It's because NFL GMs don't worry about FF stats, they worry about actual productivity.

DEN's pinball numbers passing game hid Moreno's flaws and emphasized his strengths. I don't think you're going to see anywhere near that kind of protection of his flaws in MIA, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Moreno relegated to a CoP role once they see how he functions in a normal offense - if we can call MIA's O normal.

Get what you can for him while his value is still relatively high and before all your league mates get to see in TC and preseason what DEN's and now the rest of the NFL has seen in regard to how he fits into a regular O.

As a guy who didn't whiff on Moreno last year, I agree with the idea to sell him now but some of the things you mention need cleared up if people want to really understand this situation. Moreno was not a "healthy scratch" before last year. He was healthy enough to not go to IR and he did that because the Broncos knew McGahee was running out of gas and they had no faith in Hillman. They just simply needed someone and they thought, if pressed, he was healthy "enough" to come in and at least pass protect (which is the thing they have always known they had in him).

Ball may have been more effective by the numbers at the end of the year running but he had the major advantage of being a fresh, young player that hadn't grinded through 2/3 of the season already and by the time he stepped in, the gameplan on the Broncos was already known and teams were giving the run more than ever. When you compare what Lacy was doing despite NOT having Rodgers vs. what Ball was doing WITH Manning, It is reasonable we should have expected much more, not just statistically better. And, even at the end of the year, Ball still had issue pass protecting and holding on to the ball.

Denver may have made a mistake letting Moreno go given that he wasn't incredibly expensive to retain but it is understandable. They need every penny they can get to fund their "all in" window they have. They also couldn't really keep Moreno without admitting on some level that they MAY have made a mistake with Ball and, don't be foled, ego and perception still drive decisions sometimes. And, if nothing else, they DID need to let Moreno walk if they want to give Ball a shot because here's the truth, pure and simple: Had Moreno resigned, Ball was limited. And that should tell us what Ball really is and temper the hype on him. It might be a mistake for Denver to let him go but it is an understandable one.

Moreno goes to Miami on a cheap, short-term deal and steps in to a situation where he can be used up and help protect tannehill while they fix their O-line. Quietly, this may be one of the best signings any team in the NFL made this offseason in terms of identifying and addressing a team need.

One fumble in the last 13 regular season games (16 counting the playoffs) for Ball constitutes issues holding on to the ball at the end of the season? Are you unfamiliar with this stat and that is why you keep repeating the claim in different threads?

 

[Slapdash]

Last year

Using data from the 2012 season as well as the 2013 season, we find that among the 31 passers that have attempted at least 50 deep passes during those years, Tannehill’s accuracy percentage (40.0 percent) ranks 17th in a tie with Robert Griffin III.

[see article for data table]

As you can see from the above data, Tannehill seems to be much more accurate when throwing deep to Brian Hartline as opposed to Wallace. He is also much more accurate with his deep passes thrown toward the likes of Davone Bess, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews, Brandon Gibson, etc.

In fact, going back to the group of passers isolated above, if one were to tally only Tannehill’s accuracy statistics from players not named Wallace, the resulting percentage (44.1 percent) would rank sixth in the group of 31 quarterbacks.

I'm not sure this is a resounding dispute of Tannelhill's deep ball accuary. 17th?

Also that last paragraph is a little weird - so Tannehill's deep ball accuarcy is good, outside of when he's throwing to one of the best deep ball threats in the league? What does that even mean? Why would one exclude the passess thrown to Wallace when assessing Tannehill's deep ball accuracy?

Yeah, this seems a case of being able to spin statistics anyway you like.

 

[Todem]

Anyone who watched every snap of the Dolphins last year and thinks Tannehill threw a good deep ball is on LSD.

HE STUNK!!!

And I want him to succeed. But he could not get the ball to Wallace deep at all last season. Now……with an improved OL (hopefully) maybe that can change. He needs to start being able to hit the deep throw. He has not proven he can at the Pro level thus far.

Fact.

Talk to anyone down here and all of us know what his weakness' are.

1. Hold the ball too long

2. Does not use his safety valve (dump off) routes effectively

3. Does not have great footwork in the pocket

4. Only seems to go through 2 progressions and locks on too early

5. Has not been able to effectively hit the deep pass

Year three is the big one. If he does not improve…..we are looking for another QB…….yet again. Mark that down.

I hope he takes the big jump this season. I really do.

 

[moleculo]

if Knowshon Moreno was a girl, (s)he would be the kind of girl you would describe as having a great personality.

 

[Bronco Billy]

..I had this thing pegged from the get go and if you truly think that Moreno was honestly healthy and was just so bad that he was on a roster bubble and clearly behind Hillman then you are just not following your team correctly.

I'd comment further, but honestly your peculiar perception is just not worth the time.

 

[TheFanatic]

..I had this thing pegged from the get go and if you truly think that Moreno was honestly healthy and was just so bad that he was on a roster bubble and clearly behind Hillman then you are just not following your team correctly.

I'd comment further, but honestly your peculiar perception is just not worth the time.

While I do believe Moreno was on the bubble, the notion that Hillman was anything good cracks me up. The guy runs with no power. Never has. But he got all the hype after sucking in the playoffs the year before. That's why I moved on Moreno in the offseason and picked him up for a third rounder in a deep dynasty.

 

[FF Ninja]

Now that's fascinating. A guy who resoundingly diminished others for their credibility and then presents mediocre at best numbers unless they are thoroughly cherry picked , and cherry picked in a manner that excluded the QB that he is propping up being able to properly utilize a well documented proven weapon , and usurps the high road in credibility and acumen while doing it.Tough to put a label on it, but chutzpah seems pretty appropriate.

FWIW - I have absolutely no dog in this fight and am at most mildly curious to see how Tannehill develops.

Mediocre is a lot better than the s*** people keep spewing (that he's terrible). I mean, it would make it even worse if he was actually an elite deep passer, but it is still stupid to keep reinforcing "terrible" when he's actually right in the middle of the pack. And no, the data doesn't have to be "thoroughly" cherry picked to improve his numbers. They are simply removing one receiver for one year out of a two year sample and he magically jumps to 6th in deep accuracy. Is there cherry picking involved? Obviously. Is calling it "thoroughly cherry picked" an extreme exaggeration? Absolutely.

Thanks for your attempt to deride my attempt at a more thorough analysis of the situation rather than engaging in the usual one line analysis that makes the SP such a great place for discussion ("he's terrible" or "he's a stud").

Last year

Using data from the 2012 season as well as the 2013 season, we find that among the 31 passers that have attempted at least 50 deep passes during those years, Tannehill’s accuracy percentage (40.0 percent) ranks 17th in a tie with Robert Griffin III.

[see article for data table]

As you can see from the above data, Tannehill seems to be much more accurate when throwing deep to Brian Hartline as opposed to Wallace. He is also much more accurate with his deep passes thrown toward the likes of Davone Bess, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews, Brandon Gibson, etc.

In fact, going back to the group of passers isolated above, if one were to tally only Tannehill’s accuracy statistics from players not named Wallace, the resulting percentage (44.1 percent) would rank sixth in the group of 31 quarterbacks.

I'm not sure this is a resounding dispute of Tannelhill's deep ball accuary. 17th?

Also that last paragraph is a little weird - so Tannehill's deep ball accuarcy is good, outside of when he's throwing to one of the best deep ball threats in the league? What does that even mean? Why would one exclude the passess thrown to Wallace when assessing Tannehill's deep ball accuracy?

Yeah, I'm not trying to make him out to be the best deep passer in the history of football, but he's mediocre at worst. I'm just sick of seeing people echo nonsense back and forth. I expect it from the SP in general, but didn't expect it from MoP.

And I agree it seems crazy on the surface that he struggled with the deep ball to one of the best deep ball guys in the league, but you're smarter than that. Look at the whole situation:

(A) Tannehill is a young, raw QB in just his second season

(B) The WR he struggled with was new to the team

© The WR he struggled with had issues with the OC and had some negative publicity in regards to disagreements with the staff

(D) The offensive line was the worst in the league (probably the biggest issue for deep accuracy outside of natural ability)

(E) The play calling was simply bizarre last year. There's a reason there's a new OC in town

I mean, even without all the other issues, this wouldn't be the first documented case of a new WR struggling to gain chemistry with a QB. I mean, look at Brady/Chad Johnson or Brady/Lloyd. And Brady actually had a good line and good OC. So it's a bit premature to beat Tannehill up for a one year snafu with Wallace. Next year he'll have an inexperienced OC and probably a still sh***y OL, but let's see how it goes before labeling him a terrible deep ball passer due to one year's performance with one WR. It's just irresponsible and short sighted.

 

[cvnpoka]

As a guy who admittedly whiffed on Moreno last year and expected Ball to displace him early on, I'd be selling Moreno right now as he has moved on to what appears to be a starting job in Miami and before TC has started.

Moreno did miss games prior to last season due to injury, but he was also a healthy scratch a significant portion of the time. In 2012 he was at the point that he was on the roster bubble and had sunk behind Hillman and Lance Ball on the depth chart.

Before we start deluding ourselves that Moreno is starting quality in a normal offense, let's make sure that we take into account that because he operated in DEN's record setting passing O - that by ESPN's review he was running against 6 or less in the box on almost 80% of his rushes - and still only managed 4.3 ypc. In the second half of the season when Ball finally got a comfort level in the offense and the trust of Manning, Ball's rushing production was much better despite his getting the short yardage work.

Moreno still has some serious issues running between the tackles. People are wondering why DEN wouldn't resign him when they are in a championship window and he came relatively cheap. They wonder why there was almost literally no interest in the league for his services as a FA. It's because NFL GMs don't worry about FF stats, they worry about actual productivity.

DEN's pinball numbers passing game hid Moreno's flaws and emphasized his strengths. I don't think you're going to see anywhere near that kind of protection of his flaws in MIA, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Moreno relegated to a CoP role once they see how he functions in a normal offense - if we can call MIA's O normal.

Get what you can for him while his value is still relatively high and before all your league mates get to see in TC and preseason what DEN's and now the rest of the NFL has seen in regard to how he fits into a regular O.

As a guy who didn't whiff on Moreno last year, I agree with the idea to sell him now but some of the things you mention need cleared up if people want to really understand this situation. Moreno was not a "healthy scratch" before last year. He was healthy enough to not go to IR and he did that because the Broncos knew McGahee was running out of gas and they had no faith in Hillman. They just simply needed someone and they thought, if pressed, he was healthy "enough" to come in and at least pass protect (which is the thing they have always known they had in him).

Ball may have been more effective by the numbers at the end of the year running but he had the major advantage of being a fresh, young player that hadn't grinded through 2/3 of the season already and by the time he stepped in, the gameplan on the Broncos was already known and teams were giving the run more than ever. When you compare what Lacy was doing despite NOT having Rodgers vs. what Ball was doing WITH Manning, It is reasonable we should have expected much more, not just statistically better. And, even at the end of the year, Ball still had issue pass protecting and holding on to the ball.

Denver may have made a mistake letting Moreno go given that he wasn't incredibly expensive to retain but it is understandable. They need every penny they can get to fund their "all in" window they have. They also couldn't really keep Moreno without admitting on some level that they MAY have made a mistake with Ball and, don't be foled, ego and perception still drive decisions sometimes. And, if nothing else, they DID need to let Moreno walk if they want to give Ball a shot because here's the truth, pure and simple: Had Moreno resigned, Ball was limited. And that should tell us what Ball really is and temper the hype on him. It might be a mistake for Denver to let him go but it is an understandable one.

Moreno goes to Miami on a cheap, short-term deal and steps in to a situation where he can be used up and help protect tannehill while they fix their O-line. Quietly, this may be one of the best signings any team in the NFL made this offseason in terms of identifying and addressing a team need.

One fumble in the last 13 regular season games (16 counting the playoffs) for Ball constitutes issues holding on to the ball at the end of the season? Are you unfamiliar with this stat and that is why you keep repeating the claim in different threads?

pfr has him at 3 fumbles last yr.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Re-read the first sentence.

Ball only had one in the last 13 games (16, counting playoffs). That doesn't fit with the continued description, he had trouble hanging on to the ball at the end of the season.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

And I agree it seems crazy on the surface that he struggled with the deep ball to one of the best deep ball guys in the league, but you're smarter than that. Look at the whole situation:

(A) Tannehill is a young, raw QB in just his second season

(B) The WR he struggled with was new to the team

© The WR he struggled with had issues with the OC and had some negative publicity in regards to disagreements with the staff

(D) The offensive line was the worst in the league (probably the biggest issue for deep accuracy outside of natural ability)

(E) The play calling was simply bizarre last year. There's a reason there's a new OC in town

All of this is true, but it doesn't discount the fact that the author of the article you posted was trying to make a point while seriously "cooking the books".

As I said above, Is the author really suggesting that if Brian Hartlne was actually running those routes where Wallace was trageted deep, the passes would have had a better chance of being completed?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

As a Phinsfan who watched them all I'll weigh in on this.

-His receptions though are going to take a plunge and I say that because Tannehill not only is bad at connecting on the deep ball but he also is not great at dump off passes.

Sorry to go off topic, but for a guy who claims to watch the team, you just lost a lot of credibility.

You're full of it. I can't lose much credibility from an internet ghost that has none to begin with. Watched every snap and was at a majority of the games last year. Pull up every game thread should you doubt, ask any of the Phinsfans on this site which you won't. The mere fact you would even question Tannehill and the deep ball saying he is very good shows a total lack of understanding. Mike Wallace was open all the time and Thill could rarely connect with him.

You're trying to take a pot shot because that's what you do, go back to grandmother's basement and we'll call you when we need you. If the phone doesn't ring, it's me.

 

[FF Ninja]

As a Phinsfan who watched them all I'll weigh in on this.

-His receptions though are going to take a plunge and I say that because Tannehill not only is bad at connecting on the deep ball but he also is not great at dump off passes.

Sorry to go off topic, but for a guy who claims to watch the team, you just lost a lot of credibility.

You're full of it. I can't lose much credibility from an internet ghost that has none to begin with. Watched every snap and was at a majority of the games last year. Pull up every game thread should you doubt, ask any of the Phinsfans on this site which you won't. The mere fact you would even question Tannehill and the deep ball saying he is very good shows a total lack of understanding. Mike Wallace was open all the time and Thill could rarely connect with him.

You're trying to take a pot shot because that's what you do, go back to grandmother's basement and we'll call you when we need you. If the phone doesn't ring, it's me.

Haha, forgot about this thread. Just stumbled upon it while searching for some discussion of the Miami offensive line after the additions of Albert, Fox, and Smith (and anticipated losses of Incognito, Jerry, and Martin).

But yeah, sure, that's what I do... take pot shots at blow hards/wannabe staffers. Actually, I just call people out who don't know what they're talking about. Which is not a pot shot at all. The raw stats support Tannehill being a mediocre deep passer (i.e. not terrible). He obviously had troubles with Wallace, but with all other players in his short career, he's actually been well above average with the deep ball. But yeah, posting in every game thread must make you credible, right? There are students who attend every diff eq lecture and optional review, yet they still can't grasp the concepts. Attendance =/= credibility.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As a Phinsfan who watched them all I'll weigh in on this.

-His receptions though are going to take a plunge and I say that because Tannehill not only is bad at connecting on the deep ball but he also is not great at dump off passes.

Sorry to go off topic, but for a guy who claims to watch the team, you just lost a lot of credibility.

You're full of it. I can't lose much credibility from an internet ghost that has none to begin with. Watched every snap and was at a majority of the games last year. Pull up every game thread should you doubt, ask any of the Phinsfans on this site which you won't. The mere fact you would even question Tannehill and the deep ball saying he is very good shows a total lack of understanding. Mike Wallace was open all the time and Thill could rarely connect with him.

You're trying to take a pot shot because that's what you do, go back to grandmother's basement and we'll call you when we need you. If the phone doesn't ring, it's me.

Haha, forgot about this thread. Just stumbled upon it while searching for some discussion of the Miami offensive line after the additions of Albert, Fox, and Smith (and anticipated losses of Incognito, Jerry, and Martin).

But yeah, sure, that's what I do... take pot shots at blow hards/wannabe staffers. Actually, I just call people out who don't know what they're talking about. Which is not a pot shot at all. The raw stats support Tannehill being a mediocre deep passer (i.e. not terrible). He obviously had troubles with Wallace, but with all other players in his short career, he's actually been well above average with the deep ball. But yeah, posting in every game thread must make you credible, right? There are students who attend every diff eq lecture and optional review, yet they still can't grasp the concepts. Attendance =/= credibility.

Please let's do it this way. When you see someone you think is a "blowhard", instead of "taking shots" at them, say you disagree and list why. That's really what we need here. More discussion. Less taking shots at posters. I bet you're a smart guy and know your football. Please let's make this board a community where we further discussion. Thanks.

J

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

Knowshon Moreno - RB - Dolphins

Knowshon Moreno opened Dolphins OTAs as the first-team running back.

He's ahead of Lamar Miller, Daniel Thomas, and Mike Gillislee. Miller remains the most talented pure runner on Miami's roster, but Moreno is a more reliable player with superior passing-game chops. It's entirely possible the Fins will again utilize a committee approach, with Moreno and Miller trading off series. They did so last year with Miller and Thomas, albeit with very little success. New playcaller Bill Lazor hails from Philadelphia, a run-heavy team. So we expect the Dolphins' team rushing attempts to take a significant 2014 leap.

Related: Lamar Miller

Source: Adam Beasley on Twitter

May 27 - 12:15 PM

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

Knowshon Moreno - RB - Dolphins

Knowshon Moreno has been working "primarily with the second team" in Dolphins OTAs, while coach Joe Philbin believes his conditioning "could be better."

The Miami Herald's Armando Salguero tweeted earlier Monday that Moreno "looks a little thick around the belly" and "needs work." Lamar Miller is running with the first-team offense. Moreno opened OTAs as the starter, but evidently hasn't impressed his new coaching staff. Showing up out of shape is a real easy way for a free-agent addition to get off on the wrong foot. Moreno remains the favorite to head up the Dolphins' committee, but perhaps he's cracked open the door for Miller.

Related: Lamar Miller

Source: Miami Herald

Jun 2 - 5:10 PM

 

[Slapdash]

Rotoworld:

Knowshon Moreno - RB - Dolphins

Knowshon Moreno has been working "primarily with the second team" in Dolphins OTAs, while coach Joe Philbin believes his conditioning "could be better."

The Miami Herald's Armando Salguero tweeted earlier Monday that Moreno "looks a little thick around the belly" and "needs work." Lamar Miller is running with the first-team offense. Moreno opened OTAs as the starter, but evidently hasn't impressed his new coaching staff. Showing up out of shape is a real easy way for a free-agent addition to get off on the wrong foot. Moreno remains the favorite to head up the Dolphins' committee, but perhaps he's cracked open the door for Miller.

Related: Lamar Miller

Source: Miami Herald

Jun 2 - 5:10 PM

oof