14 Killed in Shooting in San Bernardino (1 Viewer)

[GroveDiesel]

My guess is that there are 2 reasons it hasn't been labeled a terrorist attack yet:

1) Tactical: If they suspect that there are ties to other terrorists, releasing info could compromise our ability to track them down

2) Political: Trying to turn this into an argument for gun control becomes very tricky if it was a terrorist attack because a terrorist clearly isn't going to care about having illegal weapons anyway (as evidenced by their bombs). And if someone inside had had a gun, then at least they would have had a larger chance. When it's some random psycho, it's easier to get away with calls for more gun control. When it's a terrorist, it affects people's perception.

And suddenly the pressure is more on the government as well. We know how much the government still spies on everyone; why didn't they head this off? Didn't Obama just say that ISIS was on the run? The blame can't just be placed on guns when it's clear that the motivation for violence is a much bigger piece than how the violence took place.

 

[ATC1]

Scheduling my CCW class today. We can open carry here in Ohio as well.

This is happening every day it seems now. 351 mass shootings in the US this year alone.

I'll be prepared.

Please take it seriously, and I would recommend if you do carry at all times to take more self defense classes then the requirement in obtaining your CCW.

In my view 99.99% of police are inadequately trained for emergency situations. Obviously then I do not believe that a one day training is adequate to the task, but that again is only one person's opinion. Of course I have formed my opinion after being intimately involved in training LEO for a substantial portion of my career.

Certainly there is a need to be adequately trained for situations. Problem is it is hard to train for specific situations or know how we will respond in a real life threatening situation. That doesn't mean we should not have the choice to protect ourselves IMO. In an active shooter situation I'm sure the last thing people are thinking is I hope someone in here doesn't have a gun to possibly take this guy out.

 

[[icon]]

We are going to head down the usual road where folks line up:

Why do we need guns? (see constitution, etc)
Citizens aren't as well trained as elite military? (citizens are frequently in a better position to respond quickly, not to mention deterrent factor)
Why don't we just ban guns? (look at the war on drugs)
What about improving background checks? (little reasonable argument against this, but let's start with better enforcement of existing laws)
etc etc etc....

Same debates... same questions...same answers....

 

[sho nuff]

Just listened to a clip of Trump from whatever Republican thing going on....paraphrasing this.

Talking about it being Radical Islamic terrorism...and the president won't call it that.

Refuses to use the term.

There is something going on with him that we don't know about.

And people ####ing clapped.

 

[BigJohn]

Scheduling my CCW class today. We can open carry here in Ohio as well.

This is happening every day it seems now. 351 mass shootings in the US this year alone.

I'll be prepared.

Get certified... learn the laws... remember it's a last resort. Then, don't stop there. be sure to go to the range at LEAST once a month initially, then every month or two after that to keep your knowledge and handling skills fresh. A license does you no good if you're unable to safely carry and use the firearm.

Im sure it's good advice. But what are the odds that either of you will ever be in a position to defend yourself from a mass shooting or a terrorist attack?

How many of those 14 victims thought the same thing?

Horrible question.

 

[Amused to Death]

We are going to head down the usual road where folks line up:

Why do we need guns? (see constitution, etc)

Citizens aren't as well trained as elite military? (citizens are frequently in a better position to respond quickly, not to mention deterrent factor)

Why don't we just ban guns? (look at the war on drugs)

What about improving background checks? (little reasonable argument against this, but let's start with better enforcement of existing laws)

etc etc etc....

Same debates... same questions...same answers....

And the same politicians will send their thoughts and prayers to the families (because that accomplishes a lot), throw their hands in the air and proclaim "2nd amendment - can't do anything" and go back to burying their heads in the sand and "pray" it never happens again. Till it does, probably tomorrow.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

There's not much point in labeling it terrorism, is there?

If it is, it's up to the government to take appropriate steps.

Splashing it all over the airwaves just ratchets up the fear level for a general public that can't do much about it anyway. An it'd be a shame if some bubba tried to initiate something against someone he suspected was a terrorist..

 

[cubd8]

I saw that CNN is now reporting that the male involved was "probably radicalized". Do we know yet if he traveled anywhere? If so, where, and how long was he gone for, etc.? Was the wife with him?

Has the Obama administration responded to any of this news yet?

 

[sho nuff]

We are going to head down the usual road where folks line up:

Why do we need guns? (see constitution, etc)

Citizens aren't as well trained as elite military? (citizens are frequently in a better position to respond quickly, not to mention deterrent factor)

Why don't we just ban guns? (look at the war on drugs)

What about improving background checks? (little reasonable argument against this, but let's start with better enforcement of existing laws)

etc etc etc....

Same debates... same questions...same answers....

I won't say why do we need guns.

At least not all.

Certain types...well that is a different discussion.

But mainly, why is it so easy to obtain them? Should it be?

What does it take to get flagged for surveillance and why were these people not?

 

[jonessed]

My guess is that there are 2 reasons it hasn't been labeled a terrorist attack yet:

1) Tactical: If they suspect that there are ties to other terrorists, releasing info could compromise our ability to track them down

2) Political: Trying to turn this into an argument for gun control becomes very tricky if it was a terrorist attack because a terrorist clearly isn't going to care about having illegal weapons anyway (as evidenced by their bombs). And if someone inside had had a gun, then at least they would have had a larger chance. When it's some random psycho, it's easier to get away with calls for more gun control. When it's a terrorist, it affects people's perception.

And suddenly the pressure is more on the government as well. We know how much the government still spies on everyone; why didn't they head this off? Didn't Obama just say that ISIS was on the run? The blame can't just be placed on guns when it's clear that the motivation for violence is a much bigger piece than how the violence took place.

He had an interview that came out today where he said the US was safe from ISIS-style attacks (I believe it was recorded earlier). The administration has a big incentive to downplay that element if they can.

It looks like it's going to be hard to do now though as everything is pointing to Islamic terrorists. At some point he is going to have to come clean.

 

[cubd8]

Uggghh. Not to go to far off topic but... If what is being reported on CNN that he was "Apparently Radicalized" it will only give Trump more staying power..

This kind of news helps Trump, and further diminishes what credibility was left regarding the President's strategy/vision vs. ISIS.

 

[jonessed]

I saw that CNN is now reporting that the male involved was "probably radicalized". Do we know yet if he traveled anywhere? If so, where, and how long was he gone for, etc.? Was the wife with him?

Has the Obama administration responded to any of this news yet?

Saudi Arabia to find a wife.

 

[MattFancy]

Just listened to a clip of Trump from whatever Republican thing going on....paraphrasing this.

Talking about it being Radical Islamic terrorism...and the president won't call it that.

Refuses to use the term.

There is something going on with him that we don't know about.

And people ####ing clapped.

Why am I not surprised by that

 

[snogger]

Just listened to a clip of Trump from whatever Republican thing going on....paraphrasing this.

Talking about it being Radical Islamic terrorism...and the president won't call it that.

Refuses to use the term.

There is something going on with him that we don't know about.

And people ####ing clapped.

If it the "possibly radicalized" becomes Was then people will be joining his side in more numbers calling for a national database to track all Muslim's and people will believe that will make them safer :(

 

[cubd8]

My guess is that there are 2 reasons it hasn't been labeled a terrorist attack yet:

1) Tactical: If they suspect that there are ties to other terrorists, releasing info could compromise our ability to track them down

2) Political: Trying to turn this into an argument for gun control becomes very tricky if it was a terrorist attack because a terrorist clearly isn't going to care about having illegal weapons anyway (as evidenced by their bombs). And if someone inside had had a gun, then at least they would have had a larger chance. When it's some random psycho, it's easier to get away with calls for more gun control. When it's a terrorist, it affects people's perception.

And suddenly the pressure is more on the government as well. We know how much the government still spies on everyone; why didn't they head this off? Didn't Obama just say that ISIS was on the run? The blame can't just be placed on guns when it's clear that the motivation for violence is a much bigger piece than how the violence took place.

He had an interview that came out today where he said the US was safe from ISIS-style attacks (I believe it was recorded earlier). The administration has a big incentive to downplay that element if they can.

It looks like it's going to be hard to do now though as everything is pointing to Islamic terrorists. At some point he is going to have to come clean.

He keeps making very dumb comments regarding ISIS. Every dumb comment he makes is probably adding to Donald Trump's stability (or rise) in the polls.

 

[gump]

I saw that CNN is now reporting that the male involved was "probably radicalized". Do we know yet if he traveled anywhere? If so, where, and how long was he gone for, etc.? Was the wife with him?

Has the Obama administration responded to any of this news yet?

Saudi Arabia.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

We are going to head down the usual road where folks line up:

Why do we need guns? (see constitution, etc)

Citizens aren't as well trained as elite military? (citizens are frequently in a better position to respond quickly, not to mention deterrent factor)

1. Where is the COTUS does it say why "we" guns?

2. Oh come on.

 

[cubd8]

I saw that CNN is now reporting that the male involved was "probably radicalized". Do we know yet if he traveled anywhere? If so, where, and how long was he gone for, etc.? Was the wife with him?

Has the Obama administration responded to any of this news yet?

Saudi Arabia to find a wife.

He came back with a wife? How long was he gone? Is this normal?

How big of a problem is radicalization in Saudi Arabia compared to other countries?

 

[[icon]]

Again for the gun control crowd....

This shooting was in a "Gun Free Zone" in the state that has among the strictest (if not the strictest) gun control laws in the country.

Planned Parenthood? Gun Free Zone.

They're not all there, but anyone pretending spree-shooters don't disproportionately target places where a disarmed populace of "sitting ducks" reside are kidding themselves.

 

[jonessed]

There's not much point in labeling it terrorism, is there?

If it is, it's up to the government to take appropriate steps.

Splashing it all over the airwaves just ratchets up the fear level for a general public that can't do much about it anyway. An it'd be a shame if some bubba tried to initiate something against someone he suspected was a terrorist..

It was pretty clearly terrorism. There were some questions about whether they were Islamistsm but those seem to be fading fast.

It should be called what it is. If they need more time to investigate then they need more time. Completely avoiding the subject and trying to move towards a gun control agenda is a bit back-handed though. There was a remote IED set up in the building. This wasn't about gun control.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

My guess is that there are 2 reasons it hasn't been labeled a terrorist attack yet:

1) Tactical: If they suspect that there are ties to other terrorists, releasing info could compromise our ability to track them down

2) Political: Trying to turn this into an argument for gun control becomes very tricky if it was a terrorist attack because a terrorist clearly isn't going to care about having illegal weapons anyway (as evidenced by their bombs). And if someone inside had had a gun, then at least they would have had a larger chance. When it's some random psycho, it's easier to get away with calls for more gun control. When it's a terrorist, it affects people's perception.

And suddenly the pressure is more on the government as well. We know how much the government still spies on everyone; why didn't they head this off? Didn't Obama just say that ISIS was on the run? The blame can't just be placed on guns when it's clear that the motivation for violence is a much bigger piece than how the violence took place.

Disagree with number 2. Regardless of whether they would have tried to get guns illegally, the fact that they didn't need too makes it that much easier for terrorists (foreign or domestic) to inflict casualties here. Even if they have to go through something as simplistic as a straw purchase it adds another step where the activity and individuals can be deterred or flagged for attention. So if these end up being ideological terrorists carrying out an attack with legally obtained guns, I think it strengthens the gun control position.

 

[GroveDiesel]

My guess is that there are 2 reasons it hasn't been labeled a terrorist attack yet:

1) Tactical: If they suspect that there are ties to other terrorists, releasing info could compromise our ability to track them down

2) Political: Trying to turn this into an argument for gun control becomes very tricky if it was a terrorist attack because a terrorist clearly isn't going to care about having illegal weapons anyway (as evidenced by their bombs). And if someone inside had had a gun, then at least they would have had a larger chance. When it's some random psycho, it's easier to get away with calls for more gun control. When it's a terrorist, it affects people's perception.

And suddenly the pressure is more on the government as well. We know how much the government still spies on everyone; why didn't they head this off? Didn't Obama just say that ISIS was on the run? The blame can't just be placed on guns when it's clear that the motivation for violence is a much bigger piece than how the violence took place.

He had an interview that came out today where he said the US was safe from ISIS-style attacks (I believe it was recorded earlier). The administration has a big incentive to downplay that element if they can.

It looks like it's going to be hard to do now though as everything is pointing to Islamic terrorists. At some point he is going to have to come clean.

As much as possible, he'll be painted as a lone wolf acting out workplace violence.

 

[cubd8]

Just listened to a clip of Trump from whatever Republican thing going on....paraphrasing this.

Talking about it being Radical Islamic terrorism...and the president won't call it that.

Refuses to use the term.

There is something going on with him that we don't know about.

And people ####ing clapped.

Why am I not surprised by that

It resonates. This is why he is doing so well, for better or, more likely, for worse. Trump is saying things that people understand, and agree with. Obama (and Hillary for that matter) are parsing their words and come across as weak on this issue to most Americans.

 

[bcat01]

Does the way the police responded in this case change any minds regarding the use of military style equipment for the cops?

Seems to me like it certainly did help them and saved a few lives in the process of those responding.

I was thinking the same thing. I say make sure every department has the equipment available to them if they want it.

 

[snogger]

There's not much point in labeling it terrorism, is there?

If it is, it's up to the government to take appropriate steps.

Splashing it all over the airwaves just ratchets up the fear level for a general public that can't do much about it anyway. An it'd be a shame if some bubba tried to initiate something against someone he suspected was a terrorist..

Have a feeling that with the reports of "one guy saw other possible Muslim's visiting this guys house" there are going to be many reports now whenever multiple people of "Muslim" characteristics get together....

If we keep heading down this path and Muslim's( or anyone that resembles the Muslim characteristic) probably shouldn't plan on being able to go to others houses for Parties, to watch games, or just hang out or you might just get visited by the local police for possible terrorist planning.. :(

 

[sho nuff]

Fired between 65 and 75 rounds inside the center...

 

[[icon]]

But mainly, why is it so easy to obtain them? Should it be?

What does it take to get flagged for surveillance and why were these people not?

Good questions. It's not easy in California to get a gun... hardest state in the country, actually.

Mentally ill should be flagged, but as reported in this thread earlier, less than 20% of states submit these databases to the national register. That alone would have stopped the Va Tech shooter from legally procuring firearms.

We can revise our laws... but I'm still confused why we don't hold government accountable for enforcing the existing laws on the books? It's like taking a ####ty plumber who's sleeping on the job and nothing's getting fixed, and thinking the solutions is to make him carry around more shiny new tools.

 

[jonessed]

I saw that CNN is now reporting that the male involved was "probably radicalized". Do we know yet if he traveled anywhere? If so, where, and how long was he gone for, etc.? Was the wife with him?

Has the Obama administration responded to any of this news yet?

Saudi Arabia to find a wife.

He came back with a wife? How long was he gone? Is this normal?

How big of a problem is radicalization in Saudi Arabia compared to other countries?

Fiancee. A few weeks. Not common, but not uncommon.

Very big.

 

[cubd8]

Again for the gun control crowd....

This shooting was in a "Gun Free Zone" in the state that has among the strictest (if not the strictest) gun control laws in the country.

Planned Parenthood? Gun Free Zone.

They're not all there, but anyone pretending spree-shooters don't disproportionately target places where a disarmed populace of "sitting ducks" reside are kidding themselves.

In Chicago, where the violence is horrible in the south and west sides of the city, the argument to that is that it doesn't help if Chicago has tough laws if the guns are coming from Indiana and Kentucky where the laws are weaker.

Has there ever been a study done on violence by gun and the origin of where these guns are coming from? Are they coming from states with weaker gun laws?

 

[sho nuff]

Had over 1400 rounds for the rifles

200 rounds for 9mm

Edit...this is what was on them in the SUV I guess...other stuff reported for what was found in the house.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

There's not much point in labeling it terrorism, is there?

If it is, it's up to the government to take appropriate steps.

Splashing it all over the airwaves just ratchets up the fear level for a general public that can't do much about it anyway. An it'd be a shame if some bubba tried to initiate something against someone he suspected was a terrorist..

It was pretty clearly terrorism. There were some questions about whether they were Islamistsm but those seem to be fading fast.

It should be called what it is. If they need more time to investigate then they need more time. Completely avoiding the subject and trying to move towards a gun control agenda is a bit back-handed though. There was a remote IED set up in the building. This wasn't about gun control.

Of course it's terrorism. That's why the Feds were there so quickly.And yes, it's very dumb to imply this was an issue of gun control.

I just don't get the need for the label.

 

[pantagrapher]

Sounds like Syed came from a pretty effed up home life.

 

[tom22406]

Does the way the police responded in this case change any minds regarding the use of military style equipment for the cops?

Seems to me like it certainly did help them and saved a few lives in the process of those responding.

I was thinking the same thing. I say make sure every department has the equipment available to them if they want it.

I was one of those who were saying they shouldn't have this type of stuff because of how(for example)the Ferguson situation was handled.I think we need to be very careful in how this type of stuff is used and have very strict guidelines as to when is the right time and when it isn't.This case is certainly giving me pause to my original thinking.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

12 IEDs/pipebombs found

2500 .223 rounds

2000 9 mm rounds

all found at the home. plus equipment for bombing making.

 

[cubd8]

@Conflicts 5m5 minutes ago
BREAKING: Farook was in touch with more than one international terrorism subjects

This bothers me. CNN has been running a banner most of the morning saying this guy was "not on the police's radar".

He was on someone's radar. Why not share this info with local law enforcement?

Was he on any law enforcement's radar beyond the local police?

 

[[icon]]

Does the way the police responded in this case change any minds regarding the use of military style equipment for the cops?

Seems to me like it certainly did help them and saved a few lives in the process of those responding.

I was thinking the same thing. I say make sure every department has the equipment available to them if they want it.

I was one of those who were saying they shouldn't have this type of stuff because of how(for example)the Ferguson situation was handled.I think we need to be very careful in how this type of stuff is used and have very strict guidelines as to where is the right time and when it isn't.This case is certainly giving me pause to my original thinking.

I will agree that in cases like Ferguson, it can look like bro's out playing with their new toys because they have them.

In cases like this and the marathon bombers... it can become obvious this stuff is invaluable in making sure the brave LEO going toe to toe with guys like this are able to go home to thier wives and children at the end of the day.

Like all things... it's about balance.

 

[cubd8]

12 IEDs/pipebombs found

2500 .223 rounds

2000 9 mm rounds

all found at the home. plus equipment for bombing making.

Sounds like just a gun loving American and a case of work place violence.

 

[cubd8]

There's not much point in labeling it terrorism, is there?

If it is, it's up to the government to take appropriate steps.

Splashing it all over the airwaves just ratchets up the fear level for a general public that can't do much about it anyway. An it'd be a shame if some bubba tried to initiate something against someone he suspected was a terrorist..

It was pretty clearly terrorism. There were some questions about whether they were Islamistsm but those seem to be fading fast.

It should be called what it is. If they need more time to investigate then they need more time. Completely avoiding the subject and trying to move towards a gun control agenda is a bit back-handed though. There was a remote IED set up in the building. This wasn't about gun control.

Of course it's terrorism. That's why the Feds were there so quickly.And yes, it's very dumb to imply this was an issue of gun control.

I just don't get the need for the label.

The gun control issue is the left's attempt to diminish the terrorism angle. Label's do matter since this reflects on a global issue that the President has consistently minimized.

 

[Phil Elliott]

Black Expedition SUV was rented 3-4 days ago and was "scheduled" to be returned yesterday.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Again for the gun control crowd....

This shooting was in a "Gun Free Zone" in the state that has among the strictest (if not the strictest) gun control laws in the country.

Planned Parenthood? Gun Free Zone.

They're not all there, but anyone pretending spree-shooters don't disproportionately target places where a disarmed populace of "sitting ducks" reside are kidding themselves.

In Chicago, where the violence is horrible in the south and west sides of the city, the argument to that is that it doesn't help if Chicago has tough laws if the guns are coming from Indiana and Kentucky where the laws are weaker.

Has there ever been a study done on violence by gun and the origin of where these guns are coming from? Are they coming from states with weaker gun laws?

Yes, here's a recent one

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/Assets/downloads/20151102-Tracing-Guns.pdf

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The gun control issue is the left's attempt to diminish the terrorism angle. Label's do matter since this reflects on a global issue that the President has consistently minimized.

It shouldn't be labeled an issue of gun control EITHER.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Black Expedition SUV was rented 3-4 days ago and was "scheduled" to be returned yesterday.

Now that's just F-ed up.

 

[sho nuff]

There's not much point in labeling it terrorism, is there?

If it is, it's up to the government to take appropriate steps.

Splashing it all over the airwaves just ratchets up the fear level for a general public that can't do much about it anyway. An it'd be a shame if some bubba tried to initiate something against someone he suspected was a terrorist..

It was pretty clearly terrorism. There were some questions about whether they were Islamistsm but those seem to be fading fast.

It should be called what it is. If they need more time to investigate then they need more time. Completely avoiding the subject and trying to move towards a gun control agenda is a bit back-handed though. There was a remote IED set up in the building. This wasn't about gun control.

Of course it's terrorism. That's why the Feds were there so quickly.And yes, it's very dumb to imply this was an issue of gun control.

I just don't get the need for the label.

The gun control issue is the left's attempt to diminish the terrorism angle. Label's do matter since this reflects on a global issue that the President has consistently minimized.

Or that when things are unfolding and not known...what is known or talked about was the guns.

And there may be and may be should be conversations on both gun violence and terrorism in this country.

 

[[icon]]

12 IEDs/pipebombs found

2500 .223 rounds

2000 9 mm rounds

all found at the home. plus equipment for bombing making.

To be fair, given the immense fluctuations in availability and cost of ammunition (due to gun control threats/efforts), most recreational/competitive shooters/hunters have been conditioned to keep a supply of ammo on-hand. Those ammo levels sound absurd, but if you enjoy going to the range once a week, You'll likely be shooting 500-1000 rounds of ammo a month. When supplies/pricing fluctuations can make purchasing more prohibitive or impossible for months on end, it makes sense to keep some on hand.

NOT AT ALL justifying these guys...particularly the bomb stuff. Just explaining that that quantity of ammunition may seem absurd to someone on the outside, but it's not. I have about that much 9mm on hand, about half that much 5.56/.223 (don't shoot that often), and about half that much 7.62 (AK). I only have a few hundred rounds of 12ga as that's about as readily available a round as there is.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Again for the gun control crowd....

This shooting was in a "Gun Free Zone" in the state that has among the strictest (if not the strictest) gun control laws in the country.

Planned Parenthood? Gun Free Zone.

They're not all there, but anyone pretending spree-shooters don't disproportionately target places where a disarmed populace of "sitting ducks" reside are kidding themselves.

Here's the obvious counterpoints; admittedly from a biased website, but the facts cited there stand.

I really don't think gun-free or not gun-free makes a damn bit of difference. The fact that most of these events happen in gun-free zones is not a result of some careful selection by otherwise insane people, but is probably just because most public areas across the country happen to be "gun free zones," including the schools that seem to be most frequently targeted, so of course a large number of the targets will be gun free.

It's like claiming that spree killers are targeting no-smoking zones because many of the targets don't allow smoking, which is of course true because most schools, government buildings, office buildings and large indoor public spaces don't allow smoking and those are the places usually targeted. There's an obvious explanation of the correlation and zero evidence of causation.

 

[shader]

12 pipe bombs in the house? That's terrorism. Maybe not ISIS, but this guy planned to cause major fatalities.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Black Expedition SUV was rented 3-4 days ago and was "scheduled" to be returned yesterday.

Now that's just F-ed up.

No way are they getting their deposit back on that thing.

 

[boots11234]

Black Expedition SUV was rented 3-4 days ago and was "scheduled" to be returned yesterday.

Now that's just F-ed up.

Wonder if he paid for the extra insurance?

 

[[icon]]

Black Expedition SUV was rented 3-4 days ago and was "scheduled" to be returned yesterday.

Now that's just F-ed up.

Yep. Pretty good sign to sway back toward the time/date/location being quite premeditated (vs general prep triggered by the argument).

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Black Expedition SUV was rented 3-4 days ago and was "scheduled" to be returned yesterday.

Probably was just trying to return it when this all went down. Just a horrible misunderstanding I'm sure