18 year old leaves house, sues parents to pay for college and living e (1 Viewer)

[Insein]

Henry, in the short time I've been here, I think you are one of the most rational and sane people here. But I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you saying that if a teenage girl has psychological issues that lead to eating disorders that is a clear sign of some sort of parental abuse? I mean... what?

When was the last time you were around a completely spoiled self-entitled 18 year old girl? Specifically one that has been going to one of the top Catholic private schools in NJ? It's almost a monumental task for a parent to deal with that in general. And I've just personally never had the experience that this was a result of anything other than parents of our generation reading books that say the word "no" is bad and we constantly have to tell our kids how special they are because any criticism or stifling of their creative uniqueness is stifling and give them lasting lifelong problems. And then they grow up to be teenagers with this mindset thinking they can do whatever the #### they want to and if you try to tell them differently they demonize you because they are special and no one is allowed to tell them "no".

I have many personal experiences where I have been close to people with eating disorders (my sister for one) and there is not one iota of blame to put on my parents for that phenomenon. My father was not sexually abusing my sister. My sister has never even claimed such an absurd thing. She is insecure about herself and it manifests itself in trying to be as skinny as possible. That insecurity did not come from our household. It came from her friends and competing for the captain of the cheerleading squad and the boy she was in love with that dumped her like a bad habit when she was 16 and probably a plethora of other psychological things now that she is in her 30s that I can't comprehend. There is a helluva lot more psychological damage that happens to teenagers and young adults amongst their peers than what typically happens at home.

I just don't get where you are going with this. I haven't been here very long, but you seem like one of the more rational posters and I'm completely not understanding your stance on this one. Why do you think that because this girl is clearly psychologically messed up that it is a clear sign that her father has abused her? Do you think it's possible based on her other behavioral patterns that she got involved with other boys that were completely bad news and her parents weren't happy about it?

I don't think it's a clear sign. However, when an 18 year old brings a lawsuit alleging that her parents abused her and the immediate reaction from the mob is that she's a spoiled #####, when there are reasonable red flags that maybe something is wrong, it bothers the hell out of me.I think there's a definite possibility that the kid is a spoiled brat. But there's also a definite possibility that her dad has been one of the much-higher-than-you-think number of men who are inappropriate with their daughters. And it's pretty messed up, if she's a victim here, to have an entire thread filled with nothing but sexually degrading comments and insults.

If there was any evidence of inappropriate behavior presented that gave a possibility that something happened, then sure. You want to check it out. But there are plenty of red flags showing that this is a baseless lie more than truth.When these accusations are made through a lawsuit and not criminal charges is my first red flag. When the only evidence is a kiss on the cheek and a supposed phrase about his daughter being more than that to him, it raises more red flags as to why not go for some actual inappropriate behavior instead of some vague hearsay that has no context. Then the girl sits in the court room with a smug little smile like she just expects to get her way, it all doesn't add up to a girl that emotional and physically abused.

The kiss on the cheek isn't the only evidence. There's also getting his daughter blackout drunk, waking her up in the middle of the night to drink with him, and whatever hasn't been released in the media.You ever talk to a kid who has been having sex with a parent for years? Try sometime. See how much she's willing to admit, even when physical evidence is sitting in front of her and you're telling her you don't blame her and only want to help.

"It was all a little inappropriate, but that's all" is a pretty common theme, even if she's screaming abuse but giving zero details of what the abuse is.

She could very well be a spoiled brat. She could also be an awfully screwed up victim of abuse. Probably best to wait and see what comes out before judging this one.

I understand that but then why a lawsuit? These are criminal allegations here. Just doesn't add up for the friend's dad/lawyer to go right for the wallet and not involve some form of police.

She had Child Protection called by the school, who did absolutely nothing.

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

 

[Henry Ford]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

 

[Insein]

She had Child Protection called by the school, who did absolutely nothing.

That's misleading at best. They did a full investigation including interviewing other family members and determined that they believed the allegations were not true.Those investigations can certainly be flawed and they can certainly come to wrong conclusions, but to say that they "did nothing" is quite false.

My apologies.

"They did absolutely nothing to rectify the situation she was in and shockingly did not recommend charges against the former chief of police."

You guys can shout all you want about how she didn't run to the police, but her dad is the former chief of police. Think she feels safe reporting to them?

Not her. The friends parents. Why are they not going to the police? Surely if they are prominent members of the community they will have sway against a former police chief. If she told them these allegations, why did they come to the idea of lawsuit as the best course of action?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Good lord is this an interesting case. We've been talking about how we could use any part of it in furture cases where the parents are being asked to pay for college from their ex. This case may reverberate through New Jersey for awhile.

 

[StrikeS2k]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

It's also not inconsistent with a spoiled brat. You sure seem to be putting a lot of faith in that she was abused, despite the only evidence of that being her words. And I find her credibility very questionable. So you must think the Mom and sisters don't care about her. Sure seems like there would be more smoke that CPS could have found given the pattern of abuse......

 

[Henry Ford]

She had Child Protection called by the school, who did absolutely nothing.

That's misleading at best. They did a full investigation including interviewing other family members and determined that they believed the allegations were not true.Those investigations can certainly be flawed and they can certainly come to wrong conclusions, but to say that they "did nothing" is quite false.

My apologies.

"They did absolutely nothing to rectify the situation she was in and shockingly did not recommend charges against the former chief of police."

You guys can shout all you want about how she didn't run to the police, but her dad is the former chief of police. Think she feels safe reporting to them?

Not her. The friends parents. Why are they not going to the police? Surely if they are prominent members of the community they will have sway against a former police chief. If she told them these allegations, why did they come to the idea of lawsuit as the best course of action?

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

 

[Insein]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

A person there isn't going to arrest the guy but some one would remember if the guy was "feeding" his daughter shots at a public event. Someone always sees. Even if its a "can you believe Sean is giving Rachel alcohol. Well not my kid."

She has all the behavior of a rebellious teen that wants to do what she wants when she wants and has no qualms about what she says or does to get there.

 

[Henry Ford]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

It's also not inconsistent with a spoiled brat. You sure seem to be putting a lot of faith in that she was abused, despite the only evidence of that being her words. And I find her credibility very questionable. So you must think the Mom and sisters don't care about her. Sure seems like there would be more smoke that CPS could have found given the pattern of abuse......

I'm not putting a lot of faith in anything. I'm reserving judgment. It just feels like a lot of faith, because you have no interest in hearing the possibility that she's telling the truth.

And you seem to have a lot more faith in DCP than I do. Particularly when investigating a high-profile and/or law enforcement family.

 

[Henry Ford]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

A person there isn't going to arrest the guy but some one would remember if the guy was "feeding" his daughter shots at a public event. Someone always sees. Even if its a "can you believe Sean is giving Rachel alcohol. Well not my kid."

She has all the behavior of a rebellious teen that wants to do what she wants when she wants and has no qualms about what she says or does to get there.

I don't know, I've never heard her speak or seen her act in any way at all.

We need a "Point To The Palsgraf Article" smiley for cases like this.

 

[Insein]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

A person there isn't going to arrest the guy but some one would remember if the guy was "feeding" his daughter shots at a public event. Someone always sees. Even if its a "can you believe Sean is giving Rachel alcohol. Well not my kid."She has all the behavior of a rebellious teen that wants to do what she wants when she wants and has no qualms about what she says or does to get there.

I don't know, I've never heard her speak or seen her act in any way at all.

We need a "Point To The Palsgraf Article" smiley for cases like this.

Just going by what's documented so far. Drinking, skipping school, stealing from her parents, making up lies, sending hateful emails to her mother.

 

[Fat Nick]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

 

[StrikeS2k]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

It's also not inconsistent with a spoiled brat. You sure seem to be putting a lot of faith in that she was abused, despite the only evidence of that being her words. And I find her credibility very questionable. So you must think the Mom and sisters don't care about her. Sure seems like there would be more smoke that CPS could have found given the pattern of abuse......

I'm not putting a lot of faith in anything. I'm reserving judgment. It just feels like a lot of faith, because you have no interest in hearing the possibility that she's telling the truth.

And you seem to have a lot more faith in DCP than I do. Particularly when investigating a high-profile and/or law enforcement family.

I am reserving judgment as well. I tend to do that. Read my responses in the the Trayvon Martin thread if you doubt that. I pretty much ALWAYS reserve judgment. However, in order for me to believe something I want to see some actual PROOF. So yes, I'm leaning a bit towards the parents on this one despite reserving my ultimate judgment. Because thus far the only proof of her allegations is, well, her allegations. The judge has heard all the evidence yet doesn't seem convinced about the abuse. You, on the other hand, are CLEARLY leaning towards the daughter based primarily on her word and your understanding of the types of behaviors abuse can cause. And I don't doubt that her actions are consistent with abuse. They clearly are. But at least as many spoiled brats act this way as those that are abused. I'd bet more but I doubt studies have been done on this issue.

Again, do you think the Mom and sisters don't care about her? Because they had the opportunity to support her and corroborate her claims yet chose not to. So you must think of them like Sandusky's wife. They are willing to allow her to be abused by the Dad without repercussion.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I don't understand all the backlash about Henry's comments. It's certainly a reasonable position to take.

I don't understand the strong positions on either side, given that no one here knows these people at all and has no basis to make any assumptions whatsoever about what did or did not take place in that house. If we can all agree that it's all conjecture that amounts to nothing, then there are a million reasonable positions to take. Any guess I make about their lives is equally likely to be correct as anyone else's.

I don't think "her allegations are very possible, there's a reasonable explanation in which she's telling the truth, so let's wait and see" is a strong position on either side.

That seems like a reasonable position to me. It also seems more neutral than your initial position which seemed to be that her behavior indicated that she had likely been abused.

Nobody was in that house with them so I think it's difficult for any of us to definitevly say what happened. Abusers typically ARE very good at covering things up. It's what makes abuse cases so difficult as well as what makes false abuse allegations so difficult.

From my perspective, I think that the voicemail that she left her mom is extremely damaging to her claims. She claims that her parents created an eating disorder by calling her names and shaming her, and yet the voicemail makes it clear that the mom was worried that her daughter was purging and the daughter mocked her for it. I don't think that parents who shamed their daughter into an eating disorder would be all that concerned about their daughter purging. And I don't think that most people with eating disorders caused by an individual are so incredibly hostile towards that person's concern for them either. They make excuses or they deny it, they don't return concern with hostility.

I've been around a lot of teens. Some that have been abused, some that have had eating disorders and some that are just brats with great parents. A teen showing the hostility in that voicemail seems much more like a brat than the abuse victims and those with eating disorders that I've experienced. Abuse victims are usually either beaten down completely and take crap from anyone, or they become hostile with everyone except for the ones abusing them. Typically you don't see that hositility towards the abuser until much later in life.

 

[Henry Ford]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

It's also not inconsistent with a spoiled brat. You sure seem to be putting a lot of faith in that she was abused, despite the only evidence of that being her words. And I find her credibility very questionable. So you must think the Mom and sisters don't care about her. Sure seems like there would be more smoke that CPS could have found given the pattern of abuse......

I'm not putting a lot of faith in anything. I'm reserving judgment. It just feels like a lot of faith, because you have no interest in hearing the possibility that she's telling the truth.

And you seem to have a lot more faith in DCP than I do. Particularly when investigating a high-profile and/or law enforcement family.

I am reserving judgment as well. I tend to do that. Read my responses in the the Trayvon Martin thread if you doubt that. I pretty much ALWAYS reserve judgment. However, in order for me to believe something I want to see some actual PROOF. So yes, I'm leaning a bit towards the parents on this one despite reserving my ultimate judgment. Because thus far the only proof of her allegations is, well, her allegations. The judge has heard all the evidence yet doesn't seem convinced about the abuse. You, on the other hand, are CLEARLY leaning towards the daughter based primarily on her word and your understanding of the types of behaviors abuse can cause. And I don't doubt that her actions are consistent with abuse. They clearly are. But at least as many spoiled brats act this way as those that are abused. I'd bet more but I doubt studies have been done on this issue.

Again, do you think the Mom and sisters don't care about her? Because they had the opportunity to support her and corroborate her claims yet chose not to. So you must think of them like Sandusky's wife. They are willing to allow her to be abused by the Dad without repercussion.

I'm not leaning any way at all. I'm responding to the vehement ridiculous statements in this thread like the one that the kid should be the star of a bukkake video who is then murdered. There's much-higher-than-zero chance that this kid is abused, and I think that's a disgusting reaction.

I have no evidence of what kind of people her Mom or sisters are, particularly since all communication I've seen has been by the father. I also have no evidence of what the Mom or sisters did or didn't know, if there is abuse at all.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't understand all the backlash about Henry's comments. It's certainly a reasonable position to take.

I don't understand the strong positions on either side, given that no one here knows these people at all and has no basis to make any assumptions whatsoever about what did or did not take place in that house. If we can all agree that it's all conjecture that amounts to nothing, then there are a million reasonable positions to take. Any guess I make about their lives is equally likely to be correct as anyone else's.

I don't think "her allegations are very possible, there's a reasonable explanation in which she's telling the truth, so let's wait and see" is a strong position on either side.

That seems like a reasonable position to me. It also seems more neutral than your initial position which seemed to be that her behavior indicated that she had likely been abused.

Nobody was in that house with them so I think it's difficult for any of us to definitevly say what happened. Abusers typically ARE very good at covering things up. It's what makes abuse cases so difficult as well as what makes false abuse allegations so difficult.

From my perspective, I think that the voicemail that she left her mom is extremely damaging to her claims. She claims that her parents created an eating disorder by calling her names and shaming her, and yet the voicemail makes it clear that the mom was worried that her daughter was purging and the daughter mocked her for it. I don't think that parents who shamed their daughter into an eating disorder would be all that concerned about their daughter purging. And I don't think that most people with eating disorders caused by an individual are so incredibly hostile towards that person's concern for them either. They make excuses or they deny it, they don't return concern with hostility.

I've been around a lot of teens. Some that have been abused, some that have had eating disorders and some that are just brats with great parents. A teen showing the hostility in that voicemail seems much more like a brat than the abuse victims and those with eating disorders that I've experienced. Abuse victims are usually either beaten down completely and take crap from anyone, or they become hostile with everyone except for the ones abusing them. Typically you don't see that hositility towards the abuser until much later in life.

Have you read what people were posting in this thread? It's pretty disgusting. I'm not taking a position as to which party is correct, here, but it's pretty obvious to me that the kid being abused isn't outside the realm of possibility, and saying that an 18-year-old alleging abuse should be sexually violated based on the assumption that she's a lying brat makes me pretty angry.

Also, let's talk about my initial position for a second:

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

 

[Henry Ford]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

 

[McGarnicle]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

It's also not inconsistent with a spoiled brat. You sure seem to be putting a lot of faith in that she was abused, despite the only evidence of that being her words. And I find her credibility very questionable. So you must think the Mom and sisters don't care about her. Sure seems like there would be more smoke that CPS could have found given the pattern of abuse......

I'm not putting a lot of faith in anything. I'm reserving judgment. It just feels like a lot of faith, because you have no interest in hearing the possibility that she's telling the truth.

And you seem to have a lot more faith in DCP than I do. Particularly when investigating a high-profile and/or law enforcement family.

I am reserving judgment as well. I tend to do that. Read my responses in the the Trayvon Martin thread if you doubt that. I pretty much ALWAYS reserve judgment. However, in order for me to believe something I want to see some actual PROOF. So yes, I'm leaning a bit towards the parents on this one despite reserving my ultimate judgment. Because thus far the only proof of her allegations is, well, her allegations. The judge has heard all the evidence yet doesn't seem convinced about the abuse. You, on the other hand, are CLEARLY leaning towards the daughter based primarily on her word and your understanding of the types of behaviors abuse can cause. And I don't doubt that her actions are consistent with abuse. They clearly are. But at least as many spoiled brats act this way as those that are abused. I'd bet more but I doubt studies have been done on this issue.

Again, do you think the Mom and sisters don't care about her? Because they had the opportunity to support her and corroborate her claims yet chose not to. So you must think of them like Sandusky's wife. They are willing to allow her to be abused by the Dad without repercussion.

I'm not leaning any way at all. I'm responding to the vehement ridiculous statements in this thread like the one that the kid should be the star of a bukkake video who is then murdered. There's much-higher-than-zero chance that this kid is abused, and I think that's a disgusting reaction.

I have no evidence of what kind of people her Mom or sisters are, particularly since all communication I've seen has been by the father. I also have no evidence of what the Mom or sisters did or didn't know, if there is abuse at all.

In fairness, upon meeting most women I immediately envision them in a bukkake video. I was in no way singling this girl out.

 

[Henry Ford]

I edited above, but will repost here for those who have read past that point:

Why does my initial position seem inconsistent with what I'm posting now?

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

 

[Insein]

I don't understand all the backlash about Henry's comments. It's certainly a reasonable position to take.

I don't understand the strong positions on either side, given that no one here knows these people at all and has no basis to make any assumptions whatsoever about what did or did not take place in that house. If we can all agree that it's all conjecture that amounts to nothing, then there are a million reasonable positions to take. Any guess I make about their lives is equally likely to be correct as anyone else's.

I don't think "her allegations are very possible, there's a reasonable explanation in which she's telling the truth, so let's wait and see" is a strong position on either side.

That seems like a reasonable position to me. It also seems more neutral than your initial position which seemed to be that her behavior indicated that she had likely been abused.Nobody was in that house with them so I think it's difficult for any of us to definitevly say what happened. Abusers typically ARE very good at covering things up. It's what makes abuse cases so difficult as well as what makes false abuse allegations so difficult.

From my perspective, I think that the voicemail that she left her mom is extremely damaging to her claims. She claims that her parents created an eating disorder by calling her names and shaming her, and yet the voicemail makes it clear that the mom was worried that her daughter was purging and the daughter mocked her for it. I don't think that parents who shamed their daughter into an eating disorder would be all that concerned about their daughter purging. And I don't think that most people with eating disorders caused by an individual are so incredibly hostile towards that person's concern for them either. They make excuses or they deny it, they don't return concern with hostility.

I've been around a lot of teens. Some that have been abused, some that have had eating disorders and some that are just brats with great parents. A teen showing the hostility in that voicemail seems much more like a brat than the abuse victims and those with eating disorders that I've experienced. Abuse victims are usually either beaten down completely and take crap from anyone, or they become hostile with everyone except for the ones abusing them. Typically you don't see that hositility towards the abuser until much later in life.

Have you read what people were posting in this thread? It's pretty disgusting. I'm not taking a position as to which party is correct, here, but it's pretty obvious to me that the kid being abused isn't outside the realm of possibility, and saying that an 18-year-old alleging abuse should be sexually violated based on the assumption that she's a lying brat makes me pretty angry.

Also, let's talk about my initial position for a second:

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

I pretty ignore those posts as the pathetic attempts at humor that they are. Any attempt at meaningful discussion with them is inadvisable.

 

[SacramentoBob]

They interviewed the parents and two sisters and found no evidence that would corroborate her story.

Also, if she was at a wedding where this inappropriate behavior occurred, there would be witnesses that could testify on her behalf. Same with the basketball camp or the beer pong (unless it was just by themselves). So far it doesn't seem like there's any smoke Here.

Then you add the documented theft via credit card by the daughter on her parent's card combined with the truancy documentation and allegations of heavy partying and drinking and this all doesn't add up to a sexual abuse situation.

You think he slipped a hand up her skirt on the dance floor? He got her drunk at the wedding. Nobody's going to arrest the former chief of police for giving his daughter some mango margaritas at a wedding. The beer pong was likely by themselves - why would he wake his daughter up to play beer pong if he had another person to play with?

And the credit card theft/truancy/heavy partying and drinking with an honors student is not at all inconsistent with sexual abuse.

A person there isn't going to arrest the guy but some one would remember if the guy was "feeding" his daughter shots at a public event. Someone always sees. Even if its a "can you believe Sean is giving Rachel alcohol. Well not my kid."She has all the behavior of a rebellious teen that wants to do what she wants when she wants and has no qualms about what she says or does to get there.

I don't know, I've never heard her speak or seen her act in any way at all.

We need a "Point To The Palsgraf Article" smiley for cases like this.

Just going by what's documented so far. Drinking, skipping school, stealing from her parents, making up lies, sending hateful emails to her mother.

Out of curiosity, if she were actually being molested by her father, which of these actions by her would you not expect her to engage in?

 

[Insein]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

Really?

 

[Henry Ford]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

Really?

Yes, really. There are different kinds of abusers. The kind who will never let go of control would ride this train into the mountain if necessary.

 

[Insein]

I edited above, but will repost here for those who have read past that point:

Why does my initial position seem inconsistent with what I'm posting now?

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

You can do both. Bring criminal charges and then sue for damages. That's how the system usually works.

 

[rockaction]

I edited above, but will repost here for those who have read past that point:

Why does my initial position seem inconsistent with what I'm posting now?

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

No. Nothing about that seems extreme nor something to really make light of.

I have met some awful people in life that haven't been abused, and that's all I'm saying.

 

[Insein]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

Really?

Yes, really. There are different kinds of abusers. The kind who will never let go of control would ride this train into the mountain if necessary.

I just don't see the evidence that was from the case so far that would show this guy as a deplorable monster you invision him as. Getting from point a to keeping daughter as a sex slave seems like an awfully large leap.And if that was the case then it is criminally negligent to leave such a monster in custody of two more little girls that could endure the same.

 

[Henry Ford]

I edited above, but will repost here for those who have read past that point:

Why does my initial position seem inconsistent with what I'm posting now?

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

You can do both. Bring criminal charges and then sue for damages. That's how the system usually works.

A private person can't "bring criminal charges." A prosecutor does. DCP was called out and didn't recommend charges. If she decided to take the route that didn't involve sitting down with one of her dad's old drinking buddies and trying to convince the guy that her dad had an inappropriate relationship with her, is that so crazily outside the realm of possibility?

 

[Henry Ford]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

Really?

Yes, really. There are different kinds of abusers. The kind who will never let go of control would ride this train into the mountain if necessary.

I just don't see the evidence that was from the case so far that would show this guy as a deplorable monster you invision him as. Getting from point a to keeping daughter as a sex slave seems like an awfully large leap.

I don't believe I ever stated that he was keeping her as a sex slave. Does it seem weird to you that a former police chief would be a controlling #######?

 

[Zow]

Good lord is this an interesting case. We've been talking about how we could use any part of it in furture cases where the parents are being asked to pay for college from their ex. This case may reverberate through New Jersey for awhile.

This why my first thought. Basically an 18 plus girl suing for her own child support. Really was looking forward to your take on this given your expertise in the area.

I reviewed the pleadings last night. Holy crap I feel for you guys in that the client's statements appear to be required to be written by them and in the first person. Painful reads.

 

[Zow]

I edited above, but will repost here for those who have read past that point:

Why does my initial position seem inconsistent with what I'm posting now?

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

You can do both. Bring criminal charges and then sue for damages. That's how the system usually works.

Not really.

 

[Insein]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

Really?

Yes, really. There are different kinds of abusers. The kind who will never let go of control would ride this train into the mountain if necessary.

I just don't see the evidence that was from the case so far that would show this guy as a deplorable monster you invision him as. Getting from point a to keeping daughter as a sex slave seems like an awfully large leap.

I don't believe I ever stated that he was keeping her as a sex slave. Does it seem weird to you that a former police chief would be a controlling #######?

Controlling #######? In what way? He seems to be responding like many parents would. Many fathers are reluctant to let their little girl go out with a boy. Many parents have curfews. Many parents get upset when they are called by the school and told their kid has been suspended for skipping or drinking at a dance. I'm not seeing the excessive control here.

 

[Insein]

I edited above, but will repost here for those who have read past that point:

Why does my initial position seem inconsistent with what I'm posting now?

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

You can do both. Bring criminal charges and then sue for damages. That's how the system usually works.

Not really.

Ill defer to the legal experts then but I figured if you had criminal activity it needs to be investigated. She seems to be sueing them for money with the offhand mention of inappropriate relationship with the dad. Would think that v ould be backed up somewhere.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Good lord is this an interesting case. We've been talking about how we could use any part of it in furture cases where the parents are being asked to pay for college from their ex. This case may reverberate through New Jersey for awhile.

This why my first thought. Basically an 18 plus girl suing for her own child support. Really was looking forward to your take on this given your expertise in the area.

I reviewed the pleadings last night. Holy crap I feel for you guys in that the client's statements appear to be required to be written by them and in the first person. Painful reads.

Yeah, family certifications suck.

I don't know what to think about this case at the moment. Our family law is in a little bit of flux right now because there is a fight amonst the legal community and the legislature to end permanent alimony as an option in divorce cases. In that argument the fundamental ideals of why family court does stuff is being questioned. This type of case adds to that arena of questioning.

If a court can argue that a child who purposely refused to keep a relationship with her parents and then sued her parents for support for her lifestyle and education expenses is denied based on how she ended the relationship and acted, then I think I should be able to argue the flip side - if the kids don't talk to dad at all and mom has basically kept them away then he should be relieved automatically from having to deal with college expenses. If I argued that last week my judges would laugh at me because I've tried. But now? I think I have a better argument.

Then if I can do that is child support itself in question? I could say yes, couldn't I? I think I can.

 

[Henry Ford]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

Really?

Yes, really. There are different kinds of abusers. The kind who will never let go of control would ride this train into the mountain if necessary.

I just don't see the evidence that was from the case so far that would show this guy as a deplorable monster you invision him as. Getting from point a to keeping daughter as a sex slave seems like an awfully large leap.

I don't believe I ever stated that he was keeping her as a sex slave. Does it seem weird to you that a former police chief would be a controlling #######?

Controlling #######? In what way? He seems to be responding like many parents would. Many fathers are reluctant to let their little girl go out with a boy. Many parents have curfews. Many parents get upset when they are called by the school and told their kid has been suspended for skipping or drinking at a dance. I'm not seeing the excessive control here.

Many parents tell their daughters to break up with all of their boyfriends. Many parents get their kids blackout drunk and wake them up in the middle of the night to play beer pong.

 

[Henry Ford]

Good lord is this an interesting case. We've been talking about how we could use any part of it in furture cases where the parents are being asked to pay for college from their ex. This case may reverberate through New Jersey for awhile.

This why my first thought. Basically an 18 plus girl suing for her own child support. Really was looking forward to your take on this given your expertise in the area.

I reviewed the pleadings last night. Holy crap I feel for you guys in that the client's statements appear to be required to be written by them and in the first person. Painful reads.

Yeah, family certifications suck.

I don't know what to think about this case at the moment. Our family law is in a little bit of flux right now because there is a fight amonst the legal community and the legislature to end permanent alimony as an option in divorce cases. In that argument the fundamental ideals of why family court does stuff is being questioned. This type of case adds to that arena of questioning.

If a court can argue that a child who purposely refused to keep a relationship with her parents and then sued her parents for support for her lifestyle and education expenses is denied based on how she ended the relationship and acted, then I think I should be able to argue the flip side - if the kids don't talk to dad at all and mom has basically kept them away then he should be relieved automatically from having to deal with college expenses. If I argued that last week my judges would laugh at me because I've tried. But now? I think I have a better argument.

Then if I can do that is child support itself in question? I could say yes, couldn't I? I think I can.

Totally agree with this being a suddenly viable argument.

Not sure how many judges will go there with you.

 

[McGarnicle]

I don't understand all the backlash about Henry's comments. It's certainly a reasonable position to take.

I don't understand the strong positions on either side, given that no one here knows these people at all and has no basis to make any assumptions whatsoever about what did or did not take place in that house. If we can all agree that it's all conjecture that amounts to nothing, then there are a million reasonable positions to take. Any guess I make about their lives is equally likely to be correct as anyone else's.

I don't think "her allegations are very possible, there's a reasonable explanation in which she's telling the truth, so let's wait and see" is a strong position on either side.

That seems like a reasonable position to me. It also seems more neutral than your initial position which seemed to be that her behavior indicated that she had likely been abused.Nobody was in that house with them so I think it's difficult for any of us to definitevly say what happened. Abusers typically ARE very good at covering things up. It's what makes abuse cases so difficult as well as what makes false abuse allegations so difficult.

From my perspective, I think that the voicemail that she left her mom is extremely damaging to her claims. She claims that her parents created an eating disorder by calling her names and shaming her, and yet the voicemail makes it clear that the mom was worried that her daughter was purging and the daughter mocked her for it. I don't think that parents who shamed their daughter into an eating disorder would be all that concerned about their daughter purging. And I don't think that most people with eating disorders caused by an individual are so incredibly hostile towards that person's concern for them either. They make excuses or they deny it, they don't return concern with hostility.

I've been around a lot of teens. Some that have been abused, some that have had eating disorders and some that are just brats with great parents. A teen showing the hostility in that voicemail seems much more like a brat than the abuse victims and those with eating disorders that I've experienced. Abuse victims are usually either beaten down completely and take crap from anyone, or they become hostile with everyone except for the ones abusing them. Typically you don't see that hositility towards the abuser until much later in life.

Have you read what people were posting in this thread? It's pretty disgusting. I'm not taking a position as to which party is correct, here, but it's pretty obvious to me that the kid being abused isn't outside the realm of possibility, and saying that an 18-year-old alleging abuse should be sexually violated based on the assumption that she's a lying brat makes me pretty angry.

Also, let's talk about my initial position for a second:

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

I pretty ignore those posts as the pathetic attempts at humor that they are. Any attempt at meaningful discussion with them is inadvisable.

You people are having this heated debate over the private lives of people you've never met, and the ONLY reason you are aware of this case at all is because the girl in question is white and attractive, thus ripe media fodder. I see such stories for what they are, and my first reactions to this story reflect my disdain for the media for making this "news" more than anything else.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't understand all the backlash about Henry's comments. It's certainly a reasonable position to take.

I don't understand the strong positions on either side, given that no one here knows these people at all and has no basis to make any assumptions whatsoever about what did or did not take place in that house. If we can all agree that it's all conjecture that amounts to nothing, then there are a million reasonable positions to take. Any guess I make about their lives is equally likely to be correct as anyone else's.

I don't think "her allegations are very possible, there's a reasonable explanation in which she's telling the truth, so let's wait and see" is a strong position on either side.

That seems like a reasonable position to me. It also seems more neutral than your initial position which seemed to be that her behavior indicated that she had likely been abused.Nobody was in that house with them so I think it's difficult for any of us to definitevly say what happened. Abusers typically ARE very good at covering things up. It's what makes abuse cases so difficult as well as what makes false abuse allegations so difficult.

From my perspective, I think that the voicemail that she left her mom is extremely damaging to her claims. She claims that her parents created an eating disorder by calling her names and shaming her, and yet the voicemail makes it clear that the mom was worried that her daughter was purging and the daughter mocked her for it. I don't think that parents who shamed their daughter into an eating disorder would be all that concerned about their daughter purging. And I don't think that most people with eating disorders caused by an individual are so incredibly hostile towards that person's concern for them either. They make excuses or they deny it, they don't return concern with hostility.

I've been around a lot of teens. Some that have been abused, some that have had eating disorders and some that are just brats with great parents. A teen showing the hostility in that voicemail seems much more like a brat than the abuse victims and those with eating disorders that I've experienced. Abuse victims are usually either beaten down completely and take crap from anyone, or they become hostile with everyone except for the ones abusing them. Typically you don't see that hositility towards the abuser until much later in life.

Have you read what people were posting in this thread? It's pretty disgusting. I'm not taking a position as to which party is correct, here, but it's pretty obvious to me that the kid being abused isn't outside the realm of possibility, and saying that an 18-year-old alleging abuse should be sexually violated based on the assumption that she's a lying brat makes me pretty angry.

Also, let's talk about my initial position for a second:

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

I pretty ignore those posts as the pathetic attempts at humor that they are. Any attempt at meaningful discussion with them is inadvisable.

You people are having this heated debate over the private lives of people you've never met, and the ONLY reason you are aware of this case at all is because the girl in question is white and attractive, thus ripe media fodder. I see such stories for what they are, and my first reactions to this story reflect my disdain for the media for making this "news" more than anything else.

I don't think the heated debate is over what actually happened in her case.

 

[Insein]

You may have noticed that he's the former chief of police. In New Jersey. It's possible that no one thinks he's going to jail, and it's very possible his daughter doesn't want him going to jail or for all the details to ever come out. This kid has a lot of years left on her life to be known as the "New Jersey incest daughter" in a high profile case. Who knows? There are a lot of reasons someone may not want to go to the police with the whole thing.

How is going this route any lower-profile? Heck, if it was just an incest case, this probably doesn't make national news. I get that any hypothetical sexual abuse isn't coming out in this yet, but you'd have to think that she's smart enough to realize that it will if this keeps going.

Not to mention, if Dad was smart, and knew this skeleton in the closet as well, wouldn't he just agree to pay her college and let this go away? I mean, don't you think any incestuous father would just pay his daughter's tuition rather than risk being outed?

Not if his little plaything is trying to assert control over her own life, he wouldn't.

Really?

Yes, really. There are different kinds of abusers. The kind who will never let go of control would ride this train into the mountain if necessary.

I just don't see the evidence that was from the case so far that would show this guy as a deplorable monster you invision him as. Getting from point a to keeping daughter as a sex slave seems like an awfully large leap.

I don't believe I ever stated that he was keeping her as a sex slave. Does it seem weird to you that a former police chief would be a controlling #######?

Controlling #######? In what way? He seems to be responding like many parents would. Many fathers are reluctant to let their little girl go out with a boy. Many parents have curfews. Many parents get upset when they are called by the school and told their kid has been suspended for skipping or drinking at a dance. I'm not seeing the excessive control here.

Many parents tell their daughters to break up with all of their boyfriends. Many parents get their kids blackout drunk and wake them up in the middle of the night to play beer pong.

Which the father said never happened. Not saying that exhonerates him but he didn't try to change the situation. Said it never happened.

 

[GroveDiesel]

All other things aside, I definitely agree with HF that all the comments degrading the girl are rather vile and inappropriate.

 

[Insein]

I don't understand all the backlash about Henry's comments. It's certainly a reasonable position to take.

I don't understand the strong positions on either side, given that no one here knows these people at all and has no basis to make any assumptions whatsoever about what did or did not take place in that house. If we can all agree that it's all conjecture that amounts to nothing, then there are a million reasonable positions to take. Any guess I make about their lives is equally likely to be correct as anyone else's.

I don't think "her allegations are very possible, there's a reasonable explanation in which she's telling the truth, so let's wait and see" is a strong position on either side.

That seems like a reasonable position to me. It also seems more neutral than your initial position which seemed to be that her behavior indicated that she had likely been abused.Nobody was in that house with them so I think it's difficult for any of us to definitevly say what happened. Abusers typically ARE very good at covering things up. It's what makes abuse cases so difficult as well as what makes false abuse allegations so difficult.

From my perspective, I think that the voicemail that she left her mom is extremely damaging to her claims. She claims that her parents created an eating disorder by calling her names and shaming her, and yet the voicemail makes it clear that the mom was worried that her daughter was purging and the daughter mocked her for it. I don't think that parents who shamed their daughter into an eating disorder would be all that concerned about their daughter purging. And I don't think that most people with eating disorders caused by an individual are so incredibly hostile towards that person's concern for them either. They make excuses or they deny it, they don't return concern with hostility.

I've been around a lot of teens. Some that have been abused, some that have had eating disorders and some that are just brats with great parents. A teen showing the hostility in that voicemail seems much more like a brat than the abuse victims and those with eating disorders that I've experienced. Abuse victims are usually either beaten down completely and take crap from anyone, or they become hostile with everyone except for the ones abusing them. Typically you don't see that hositility towards the abuser until much later in life.

Have you read what people were posting in this thread? It's pretty disgusting. I'm not taking a position as to which party is correct, here, but it's pretty obvious to me that the kid being abused isn't outside the realm of possibility, and saying that an 18-year-old alleging abuse should be sexually violated based on the assumption that she's a lying brat makes me pretty angry.

Also, let's talk about my initial position for a second:

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

I pretty ignore those posts as the pathetic attempts at humor that they are. Any attempt at meaningful discussion with them is inadvisable.

You people are having this heated debate over the private lives of people you've never met, and the ONLY reason you are aware of this case at all is because the girl in question is white and attractive, thus ripe media fodder. I see such stories for what they are, and my first reactions to this story reflect my disdain for the media for making this "news" more than anything else.

Except McGarnicle. He's been pretty spot on with his satire.

 

[Henry Ford]

All other things aside, I definitely agree with HF that all the comments degrading the girl are rather vile and inappropriate.

That's all I'm saying. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this kid is telling the truth. It's also possible that she's lying - either about everything in a money grab, or to "protect" herself from the full truth of how horrible the family was from coming out. Likely we'll never know. In any event, JFC, who says those things about an 18-year-old girl for filing a lawsuit?

 

[Insein]

Good lord is this an interesting case. We've been talking about how we could use any part of it in furture cases where the parents are being asked to pay for college from their ex. This case may reverberate through New Jersey for awhile.

This why my first thought. Basically an 18 plus girl suing for her own child support. Really was looking forward to your take on this given your expertise in the area. I reviewed the pleadings last night. Holy crap I feel for you guys in that the client's statements appear to be required to be written by them and in the first person. Painful reads.

Yeah, family certifications suck.I don't know what to think about this case at the moment. Our family law is in a little bit of flux right now because there is a fight amonst the legal community and the legislature to end permanent alimony as an option in divorce cases. In that argument the fundamental ideals of why family court does stuff is being questioned. This type of case adds to that arena of questioning.

If a court can argue that a child who purposely refused to keep a relationship with her parents and then sued her parents for support for her lifestyle and education expenses is denied based on how she ended the relationship and acted, then I think I should be able to argue the flip side - if the kids don't talk to dad at all and mom has basically kept them away then he should be relieved automatically from having to deal with college expenses. If I argued that last week my judges would laugh at me because I've tried. But now? I think I have a better argument.

Then if I can do that is child support itself in question? I could say yes, couldn't I? I think I can.

Now this is a much more interesting aspect of the case.

 

[Insein]

All other things aside, I definitely agree with HF that all the comments degrading the girl are rather vile and inappropriate.

That's all I'm saying. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this kid is telling the truth. It's also possible that she's lying - either about everything in a money grab, or to "protect" herself from the full truth of how horrible the family was from coming out. Likely we'll never know. In any event, JFC, who says those things about an 18-year-old girl for filing a lawsuit?

The internet.

 

[Henry Ford]

All other things aside, I definitely agree with HF that all the comments degrading the girl are rather vile and inappropriate.

That's all I'm saying. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this kid is telling the truth. It's also possible that she's lying - either about everything in a money grab, or to "protect" herself from the full truth of how horrible the family was from coming out. Likely we'll never know. In any event, JFC, who says those things about an 18-year-old girl for filing a lawsuit?

The internet.

Don't be ridiculous. A bunch of tubes can't do anything like that.

 

[Insein]

All other things aside, I definitely agree with HF that all the comments degrading the girl are rather vile and inappropriate.

That's all I'm saying. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this kid is telling the truth. It's also possible that she's lying - either about everything in a money grab, or to "protect" herself from the full truth of how horrible the family was from coming out. Likely we'll never know. In any event, JFC, who says those things about an 18-year-old girl for filing a lawsuit?

The internet.

Don't be ridiculous. A bunch of tubes can't do anything like that.

A series of tubes can though. Along with a lot of sexually frustrated people of all ages.

 

[McGarnicle]

I don't understand all the backlash about Henry's comments. It's certainly a reasonable position to take.

I don't understand the strong positions on either side, given that no one here knows these people at all and has no basis to make any assumptions whatsoever about what did or did not take place in that house. If we can all agree that it's all conjecture that amounts to nothing, then there are a million reasonable positions to take. Any guess I make about their lives is equally likely to be correct as anyone else's.

I don't think "her allegations are very possible, there's a reasonable explanation in which she's telling the truth, so let's wait and see" is a strong position on either side.

That seems like a reasonable position to me. It also seems more neutral than your initial position which seemed to be that her behavior indicated that she had likely been abused.Nobody was in that house with them so I think it's difficult for any of us to definitevly say what happened. Abusers typically ARE very good at covering things up. It's what makes abuse cases so difficult as well as what makes false abuse allegations so difficult.

From my perspective, I think that the voicemail that she left her mom is extremely damaging to her claims. She claims that her parents created an eating disorder by calling her names and shaming her, and yet the voicemail makes it clear that the mom was worried that her daughter was purging and the daughter mocked her for it. I don't think that parents who shamed their daughter into an eating disorder would be all that concerned about their daughter purging. And I don't think that most people with eating disorders caused by an individual are so incredibly hostile towards that person's concern for them either. They make excuses or they deny it, they don't return concern with hostility.

I've been around a lot of teens. Some that have been abused, some that have had eating disorders and some that are just brats with great parents. A teen showing the hostility in that voicemail seems much more like a brat than the abuse victims and those with eating disorders that I've experienced. Abuse victims are usually either beaten down completely and take crap from anyone, or they become hostile with everyone except for the ones abusing them. Typically you don't see that hositility towards the abuser until much later in life.

Have you read what people were posting in this thread? It's pretty disgusting. I'm not taking a position as to which party is correct, here, but it's pretty obvious to me that the kid being abused isn't outside the realm of possibility, and saying that an 18-year-old alleging abuse should be sexually violated based on the assumption that she's a lying brat makes me pretty angry.

Also, let's talk about my initial position for a second:

My first post is "Maybe she's an abused kid who needs help." My second is "Just devil's advocate: If the kid needs help financially to start her life, wouldn't it be more useful to get her that than to have the parents put in prison?"

Does that seem extreme to you?

I pretty ignore those posts as the pathetic attempts at humor that they are. Any attempt at meaningful discussion with them is inadvisable.

You people are having this heated debate over the private lives of people you've never met, and the ONLY reason you are aware of this case at all is because the girl in question is white and attractive, thus ripe media fodder. I see such stories for what they are, and my first reactions to this story reflect my disdain for the media for making this "news" more than anything else.

I don't think the heated debate is over what actually happened in her case.

Okay then. It seemed that way to me. I do admire your advocacy for victims though, here and it other threads. I don't think there is anything funny about abuse and I wouldn't joke about it.

 

[SacramentoBob]

She should've followed this girl's example.

 

[Henry Ford]

Okay then. It seemed that way to me. I do admire your advocacy for victims though, here and it other threads. I don't think there is anything funny about abuse and I wouldn't joke about it.

My actual argument is over jumping to conclusions and vilifying a young girl who is suing her parents without any real knowledge of what went on. And, tangentially, about the fact that there is way more father-daughter incest going on than anyone's comfortable with actually knowing about, and dismissing it out of hand as ridiculous is a dangerous thing.

Father-daughter incest is more common than a lawyer having sex with his client. And that was suggested in the original post.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I will grant that I haven't read the whole thread. So forgive me.

1. Her certification alleges physical and mental abuse.

2. The parent's attorney sought a legal holding that since she isn't living at home she is emancipated pursuant to New Jersey law so that they don't have to pay anything.

3.The parents attorney next argued that the fact that an 18 year old who didnt like the rules at home could sue her parents in this forum shocks the legal conscious.

4. The parents admit that shortly after she left they told the school they weren't paying anymore.

5. Child protective services got involved and found nothing.

6. The kids texts are pretty standard for an 18 year old no matter how mature or smart they are.

7. The parents filing is, in my opinion, wholly over the top overkill but I don't doubt their attorney told them to use a cannon instead of a pistol.

There is something going on here more than just 18 year old spoiled kid who didn't get her way. The parents don't respond to her leaving by calling the school immediately and telling them they aren't paying. That isn't the act of love or even teaching a lesson - that is a public punishment designed to clearly beat her down because she dare challenge them. I've seen it too much to not see it here. I have no doubt that dad is probably abusive and that mom allows it to happen and is even probably controlled too much by her husband. Given his background he is absolutely without question used to getting his way and will destroy anyone who challenges him. It's the nature of his job and the nature of how they admit they handled this situation.

There is a further hearing for college expenses. I can't envision the court letting them off the hook for that especially since the money is already saved. But if I were her I'd appeal this holding and go after the parents even more. There is something there that just isn't right.

That's the lawyer in me. The dad in me is crying. The husband in me is ready to punch the wall and the Christian in me is just at a loss for words. This situation is absolutely a disaster for the family and they are all culpable for it.

 

[Henry Ford]

She should've followed this girl's example.

Perhaps the girl would have had more luck getting the guy arrested if he were the former chief of police.

 

[McGarnicle]

All other things aside, I definitely agree with HF that all the comments degrading the girl are rather vile and inappropriate.

That's all I'm saying. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this kid is telling the truth. It's also possible that she's lying - either about everything in a money grab, or to "protect" herself from the full truth of how horrible the family was from coming out. Likely we'll never know. In any event, JFC, who says those things about an 18-year-old girl for filing a lawsuit?

The internet.

Don't be ridiculous. A bunch of tubes can't do anything like that.

A series of tubes can though. Along with a lot of sexually frustrated people of all ages.

Or a lot of guys who assume they are in one of the few remaining safe places on Earth where they can blow off steam and be as absurd and over the top as possible without fear of the reprisals that would come in say, the workplace, or dinner conversation. Within the confines of a successful online forum's terms of service of course. I think usually, most people here understand sarcasm and absurdity for what it is, because most people here are men of above average intelligence. Even someone like me with below average intelligence can understand that.