2009 HOF inductees -- Rickey & Rice (1 Viewer)

[Koya]

I don't know much about the HOF monitor score, but I guess a lot more people than I thought don't consider juicing as a HOF setback.....and that Andre's "D" was far and away better than Gonzalez's.

I certainly don't have an answer (and there probably isn't a right answer), but over the year players have done a lot of things to gain an advantage. Whether they did or not is another story, but many have tried. So should we not consider pitchers that used sandpaper or spitballs, guys that lived on speed or painkillers, guys that got fake prescriptions, or sluggers that corked their bats?As for the suspected juicers, do we consider some but not others? How many times would be too many? How about what they took? Does it matter if they were banned substances or not (remember McGwire took things that weren't banned yet)?Basically, when is cheating considered cheating?

This is a tough judgement call - and all along I have said that cheating is cheating - if someone was a spitballer, and it WAS the spitball that made them great, no way should they be in the hall - and those who cheat must not get any benefit of the doubt. Raffy Palmiero is a great example. Without Roids, he is Mark Grace, maybe with some pop developed over time. But not HoF type pop. Clemens to me would have been done by 31 or 32. I discount anything after that because of roids. So he is not as clear cut a choice as some would think.Bonds would have only won say, 4 MVPs and been one of the best players of his time, but not a top 5 alltime player - that deserves a nod to the hall.And Big Mac? Would have been done years sooner with no shot for HoF type compilation or those ridiculous years after he used roids (yeah, he used legal stuff too. Too.)

 

[dparker713]

For all those dismissing Juan Gonzalez in this discussion, how exactly is he different from Rice? They both were done early in their 30s. Both posted a handful of truly productive years within a decade of top end play. Both played in hitters parks. Both weren't useful in the field. Both couldnt run. Both won MVPs (Juan had 2 btw). Both were feared during their peak.

Yet I've never thought of Juan as a HOF player and people readily dismiss him in these arguements. How exactly is Rice different? How is he more deserving? And before you bring up steroids, thats pure speculation and conjecture. What isnt conjecture is that atheletes, and specifically baseball players, have been using performance enhancing drugs for decades, so the only reasonable thing is to evaluate these players based upon their peers - and Juan and Rice seem awfully similar to me.

 

[Eephus]

For all those dismissing Juan Gonzalez in this discussion, how exactly is he different from Rice? They both were done early in their 30s. Both posted a handful of truly productive years within a decade of top end play. Both played in hitters parks. Both weren't useful in the field. Both couldnt run. Both won MVPs (Juan had 2 btw). Both were feared during their peak. Yet I've never thought of Juan as a HOF player and people readily dismiss him in these arguements. How exactly is Rice different? How is he more deserving? And before you bring up steroids, thats pure speculation and conjecture. What isnt conjecture is that atheletes, and specifically baseball players, have been using performance enhancing drugs for decades, so the only reasonable thing is to evaluate these players based upon their peers - and Juan and Rice seem awfully similar to me.

Albert Belle is another possible comp

 

[David Yudkin]

If you leave the juicing factor out of it, Belle has insane numbers. But IIRC he already came and went and didn't get enough votes to stay on the ballot.

 

[Eephus]

If you leave the juicing factor out of it, Belle has insane numbers. But IIRC he already came and went and didn't get enough votes to stay on the ballot.

Yeah, he got 7.7% of the vote in his first year and 3.5% in his second. Nobody (especially not a writer) would press the case that he was a legitimate HoFer but if you look at peak value stats and fearsomeness, he's a comp for Rice, Juan Gone, Parker and Dawson.

 

[David Yudkin]

If you leave the juicing factor out of it, Belle has insane numbers. But IIRC he already came and went and didn't get enough votes to stay on the ballot.

Yeah, he got 7.7% of the vote in his first year and 3.5% in his second. Nobody (especially not a writer) would press the case that he was a legitimate HoFer but if you look at peak value stats and fearsomeness, he's a comp for Rice, Juan Gone, Parker and Dawson.

I saw Belle hit a couple of home runs in Fenway that looked like he was hitting a driver off a tee. They may not have landed even now.

 

[Koya]

If you leave the juicing factor out of it, Belle has insane numbers. But IIRC he already came and went and didn't get enough votes to stay on the ballot.

I need to look at the stats, but I wonder how Belle fares compared to Rice. Both were one of, if not the most feared hitters in the game for much of a decade. Both were not liked by the media. Belle, however, is near forgotten, considering his greatness during an extended peak (but not extended enough).Just looked quickly... DAMN, Belle was good for a short while. He had years that Rice could only dream of. A truly complete hitter - great power, OBP, slugging, average. In a 7 year stretch (nice extended peak period), 6 times over 140 OPS+. 3 Times over 170! 193 in his uber year. Thats sick.Career 143 OPS+ but that is likely overblown because he did not have much of a tail on his career.And it is very hard to believe the guy was not on the juice - but considering juicing was not the issue a few years ago even that is has become over the past 2-3 years, I am surprised he got NO love for the hall. The guy was a ridiculously good hitter.

 

[Eephus]

Good article about Belle and his relationship with the media

 

[David Yudkin]

If you leave the juicing factor out of it, Belle has insane numbers. But IIRC he already came and went and didn't get enough votes to stay on the ballot.

I need to look at the stats, but I wonder how Belle fares compared to Rice. Both were one of, if not the most feared hitters in the game for much of a decade. Both were not liked by the media. Belle, however, is near forgotten, considering his greatness during an extended peak (but not extended enough).Just looked quickly... DAMN, Belle was good for a short while. He had years that Rice could only dream of. A truly complete hitter - great power, OBP, slugging, average. In a 7 year stretch (nice extended peak period), 6 times over 140 OPS+. 3 Times over 170! 193 in his uber year. Thats sick.Career 143 OPS+ but that is likely overblown because he did not have much of a tail on his career.And it is very hard to believe the guy was not on the juice - but considering juicing was not the issue a few years ago even that is has become over the past 2-3 years, I am surprised he got NO love for the hall. The guy was a ridiculously good hitter.

His 162 game averages were .295/40/130. That's off the chart crazy.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

 

[dparker713]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

Longevity has always been a requirement, and thats one of the reasons why a guy like Rice really shouldnt be in the Hall.

 

[guru_007]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

Because the guy is a head case. No one liked him. He's had repeated instances with the law too, and like it or not, off-field personna does carry over into hof voting.How does he not win the MVP award in '95. I love Mo Vaughn (I used to emulate his batting stance and everything when I played stickball with my buddies ), but Belle's '95 season wasn't too shabby (50 hr's, 50 doubles, 126 rbis, 121 runs, 377 total bases, and he missed 10 games)...I'm pretty sure this is the only time ever someone has gone 50/50.

Also in 1998 he came in 8th in mvp voting and he had 399 total bases. To put that in perspective, in the last 70 years, only 1 american league player has had more total bases in a given year and that was Rice's 1978 season. Belle finished 8th in mvp voting in 1998 despite having the 3rd highest average (.328), 2nd most homers (49) and 2nd most rbi's (152) - 8th in mvp award voting.

If he had played 3-4 more years, the voters would have had a very hard time keeping him out despite their obvious prejudice against him (not saying this was warranted or not). He was obviously a very good offensive player, and very disliked.

 

[David Yudkin]

Belle's '95 season wasn't too shabby (50 hr's, 50 doubles, 126 rbis, 121 runs, 377 total bases, and he missed 10 games)...I'm pretty sure this is the only time ever someone has gone 50/50.

Eddie Murray had one of the best baseball lines ever about Belle. After his 50/50 season, IIRC, Belle wanted to get something to commemorate his 50/50 season (like a patch) to where on his uniform and it didn't meet the uniform standards, so he instead got cleats that said it instead in big red numbers.One day in an interview with Murray a reporter asked why Belle wore "50-50" on his shoes and Murray replied that those were Belle's chances of catching a ball in the outfield.

 

[Workhorse]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

Longevity has always been a requirement, and thats one of the reasons why a guy like Rice really shouldnt be in the Hall.

Koufax?Puckett?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Belle's '95 season wasn't too shabby (50 hr's, 50 doubles, 126 rbis, 121 runs, 377 total bases, and he missed 10 games)...I'm pretty sure this is the only time ever someone has gone 50/50.

Eddie Murray had one of the best baseball lines ever about Belle. After his 50/50 season, IIRC, Belle wanted to get something to commemorate his 50/50 season (like a patch) to where on his uniform and it didn't meet the uniform standards, so he instead got cleats that said it instead in big red numbers.One day in an interview with Murray a reporter asked why Belle wore "50-50" on his shoes and Murray replied that those were Belle's chances of catching a ball in the outfield.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

Longevity has always been a requirement, and thats one of the reasons why a guy like Rice really shouldnt be in the Hall.

Koufax?Puckett?

You can't be series puting Koufax in this discussion. He was at the top of the game in his run putting together some of the most dominating seasons baseball has ever seen. Rice was never that dominate, not even close. Puckett won six gold gloves, six silver slugger awards, four times led the league in hits, and twice in total bases. For the time he played he was All-Star quality every single year, something Rice can't say. But Puckett is a decent comparison though but Puckett is a guy that IMO deserves to be in with little hesitation.

 

[dparker713]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

Longevity has always been a requirement, and thats one of the reasons why a guy like Rice really shouldnt be in the Hall.

Koufax?Puckett?

Those are exceptions, rather than the rule. And Koufax dominanted like almost no other pitcher ever has over a stretch of 6 years, before getting injured in the prime of his career. I personally would have had a hard time voting for Koufax, then again I never saw him pitch. 4 years of meh and 6 years for fantastic generally dont measure up to the standards set by the HOF. Though Koufax was a monster those years, 3 unanimous Cy Youngs and an MVP in that stretch. 4 no hitters including a perfect game. Such a short career, but so brillant - that is not Jim Rice. Puckett was largely a vote on character and personality and 1 fantastic postseason, as well as the fact he had to quit because of an eye condition rather than an injury. He's one of the worst elections by the writers in the last 30 years - just like Rice will be.There are of course other examples of shorter careers in the Hall, but letting the mistakes define the entry criteria just compounds those mistakes.

 

[Workhorse]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

Longevity has always been a requirement, and thats one of the reasons why a guy like Rice really shouldnt be in the Hall.

Koufax?Puckett?

Those are exceptions, rather than the rule. And Koufax dominanted like almost no other pitcher ever has over a stretch of 6 years, before getting injured in the prime of his career. I personally would have had a hard time voting for Koufax, then again I never saw him pitch. 4 years of meh and 6 years for fantastic generally dont measure up to the standards set by the HOF. Though Koufax was a monster those years, 3 unanimous Cy Youngs and an MVP in that stretch. 4 no hitters including a perfect game. Such a short career, but so brillant - that is not Jim Rice. Puckett was largely a vote on character and personality and 1 fantastic postseason, as well as the fact he had to quit because of an eye condition rather than an injury. He's one of the worst elections by the writers in the last 30 years - just like Rice will be.There are of course other examples of shorter careers in the Hall, but letting the mistakes define the entry criteria just compounds those mistakes.

I was making the argument on behalf of BELLE, not Rice. I think Albert Belle deserves serious consideration and I didn't think that Rice deserved to be inducted.

 

[dparker713]

Wow. How did Belle not get more support. It cant be all bad relations with the Media, can it? Belle was insane for 8 years and had 2 other good years. The Baseball writers are too obsessed with longevity and certain watershed career numbers.

Longevity has always been a requirement, and thats one of the reasons why a guy like Rice really shouldnt be in the Hall.

Koufax?Puckett?

Those are exceptions, rather than the rule. And Koufax dominanted like almost no other pitcher ever has over a stretch of 6 years, before getting injured in the prime of his career. I personally would have had a hard time voting for Koufax, then again I never saw him pitch. 4 years of meh and 6 years for fantastic generally dont measure up to the standards set by the HOF. Though Koufax was a monster those years, 3 unanimous Cy Youngs and an MVP in that stretch. 4 no hitters including a perfect game. Such a short career, but so brillant - that is not Jim Rice. Puckett was largely a vote on character and personality and 1 fantastic postseason, as well as the fact he had to quit because of an eye condition rather than an injury. He's one of the worst elections by the writers in the last 30 years - just like Rice will be.There are of course other examples of shorter careers in the Hall, but letting the mistakes define the entry criteria just compounds those mistakes.

I was making the argument on behalf of BELLE, not Rice. I think Albert Belle deserves serious consideration and I didn't think that Rice deserved to be inducted.

I agree Belle has a better case, he put up some truly monster years. However, its a moot point as he's already fallen off the ballot.