Donsmith753
Footballguy
It really doesn't.
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2011 offseason dynasty trades (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter fsufan
- Start date
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
It depends which Mike Williams it is to be claimed the worst deal this off-season. Seattle Mike makes this a bad deal however not even close to being the worst. I would say that next year Fred Jackson has the best chance to score the most FF points of all of those involved in the trade.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
That was a rhetorical question, but thanks.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
12 team PPR starts qb/2rb/3wr/te/d/k
VJax
Knox
2.11
3.7
for
Bowe
Harvin
Benn
4.4
VJax
Knox
2.11
3.7
for
Bowe
Harvin
Benn
4.4
squistion
Footballguy
Well, I think that tells us who gave up Britt for Steve Smith in that trade.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I was here to post how you raped that guy here. Even if you're high on VJax and high on Knox...I mean Good lord that's a bad deal. And he proposed it! WTF?
squistion
Footballguy
I dunno - doesn't seem particularly that one sided to me.
But then I do go out of my way to avoid Harvin and don't own him in any league due to the repeated and unpredictable migrane issues (which he says he thinks have now been resolved, but we have heard before).
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I agree. In fact I kind of like the VJax side as I think he is a nice upgrade to Dwayne Bowe. But I am not as high on Bowe as most are. Just think that Champ showed how to take him out. Knox is probably more valuable than Harvin in terms of fantasy and Benn has proven nothing. 2nd rounder might get okay WR to replace.I dunno - doesn't seem particularly that one sided to me.
foxco
Footballguy
I don't think it's that horrible a trade... provided Smith comes back close to form. He's a very good WR. Not a dominant WR, but runs great routes, has great hands, and can be a perennial 80 catch guy... if he's healthy. Britt has much more natural talent but the guy appears to be one of the biggest morons in the league. If I had Britt I'd be wringing my hands every week hoping he doesn't get busted again - one of these days the charges won't be reduced.
Dez
Footballguy
How is Knox more valuable ? I would much rather have Harvin myself. Last year PPR Harvin outscored Knox while missing 2 games.Just watched an FFPC start up Harvin went in the 5th round, Knox in the 9th round.I agree. In fact I kind of like the VJax side as I think he is a nice upgrade to Dwayne Bowe. But I am not as high on Bowe as most are. Just think that Champ showed how to take him out. Knox is probably more valuable than Harvin in terms of fantasy and Benn has proven nothing. 2nd rounder might get okay WR to replace.I dunno - doesn't seem particularly that one sided to me.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
Just goes to show value I suppose. It's a PPR, and the best two players in the trade are Harvin and Bowe. In addition, I would rather have Benn than all of the picks together.How can you say that Knox is more valuable than Harvin when Knox didn't even finish in the top 30 last year in this league? And Harvin was top 20, even with the migraines (he finished higher on a PPG basis). You can't say Knox has age on him. Nor pedigree. Nor past success. On the topic of PPG - while Knox didn't make top 30 aggregate, he wasn't even top 40 in PPG...Not to mention that Harvin plays in a place and a system where even if Ponder or Webb QBs the team, the WCO will give him a ton of recs and his run after the catch ability will shine.You could argue VJax over Bowe, but I think VJax is highly dependent on the vertical passing of San Diego and it has been shown that he's not even that important there, it's more of a system thing...considering the year Rivers had last season.I agree. In fact I kind of like the VJax side as I think he is a nice upgrade to Dwayne Bowe. But I am not as high on Bowe as most are. Just think that Champ showed how to take him out. Knox is probably more valuable than Harvin in terms of fantasy and Benn has proven nothing. 2nd rounder might get okay WR to replace.I dunno - doesn't seem particularly that one sided to me.
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I was in the pool
Footballguy
Start 2 QB. PPR
Crabtree
FOR
Ponder
Crabtree
FOR
Ponder
I was in the pool
Footballguy
Dickson
FOR
carlson, 5th rd. 2012 rookie pick
PPR.
FOR
carlson, 5th rd. 2012 rookie pick
PPR.
Just goes to show value I suppose. It's a PPR, and the best two players in the trade are Harvin and Bowe. In addition, I would rather have Benn than all of the picks together.How can you say that Knox is more valuable than Harvin when Knox didn't even finish in the top 30 last year in this league? And Harvin was top 20, even with the migraines (he finished higher on a PPG basis). You can't say Knox has age on him. Nor pedigree. Nor past success. On the topic of PPG - while Knox didn't make top 30 aggregate, he wasn't even top 40 in PPG...Not to mention that Harvin plays in a place and a system where even if Ponder or Webb QBs the team, the WCO will give him a ton of recs and his run after the catch ability will shine.You could argue VJax over Bowe, but I think VJax is highly dependent on the vertical passing of San Diego and it has been shown that he's not even that important there, it's more of a system thing...considering the year Rivers had last season.I agree. In fact I kind of like the VJax side as I think he is a nice upgrade to Dwayne Bowe. But I am not as high on Bowe as most are. Just think that Champ showed how to take him out. Knox is probably more valuable than Harvin in terms of fantasy and Benn has proven nothing. 2nd rounder might get okay WR to replace.I dunno - doesn't seem particularly that one sided to me.
Top to bottomIm more concerned that VJax is a product of the system than I am that Champ showed everyone how to shut down Bowe.Knox over Harvin? I'm not even sure what to say.
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Start 2 qbs doesn't make this an even trade.
Mighty Mice
Footballguy
I feel you are selling VJax short. IMO he is clearly above Harvin and Bowe in both talent and situation. Still rather have the other side though (not a Knox fan...)'Instinctive said:Just goes to show value I suppose. It's a PPR, and the best two players in the trade are Harvin and Bowe. In addition, I would rather have Benn than all of the picks together.How can you say that Knox is more valuable than Harvin when Knox didn't even finish in the top 30 last year in this league? And Harvin was top 20, even with the migraines (he finished higher on a PPG basis). You can't say Knox has age on him. Nor pedigree. Nor past success. On the topic of PPG - while Knox didn't make top 30 aggregate, he wasn't even top 40 in PPG...Not to mention that Harvin plays in a place and a system where even if Ponder or Webb QBs the team, the WCO will give him a ton of recs and his run after the catch ability will shine.You could argue VJax over Bowe, but I think VJax is highly dependent on the vertical passing of San Diego and it has been shown that he's not even that important there, it's more of a system thing...considering the year Rivers had last season.'Crippler said:I agree. In fact I kind of like the VJax side as I think he is a nice upgrade to Dwayne Bowe. But I am not as high on Bowe as most are. Just think that Champ showed how to take him out. Knox is probably more valuable than Harvin in terms of fantasy and Benn has proven nothing. 2nd rounder might get okay WR to replace.'squistion said:I dunno - doesn't seem particularly that one sided to me.'Instinctive said:
Il give you the situation, VJax clearly had an advantage there....for now. The talent part I'm not so sure of. I think all three are pretty close, I would like top see what Bowe could do as Rivers #1 WR.I feel you are selling VJax short. IMO he is clearly above Harvin and Bowe in both talent and situation. Still rather have the other side though (not a Knox fan...)'Instinctive said:Just goes to show value I suppose. It's a PPR, and the best two players in the trade are Harvin and Bowe. In addition, I would rather have Benn than all of the picks together.How can you say that Knox is more valuable than Harvin when Knox didn't even finish in the top 30 last year in this league? And Harvin was top 20, even with the migraines (he finished higher on a PPG basis). You can't say Knox has age on him. Nor pedigree. Nor past success. On the topic of PPG - while Knox didn't make top 30 aggregate, he wasn't even top 40 in PPG...Not to mention that Harvin plays in a place and a system where even if Ponder or Webb QBs the team, the WCO will give him a ton of recs and his run after the catch ability will shine.You could argue VJax over Bowe, but I think VJax is highly dependent on the vertical passing of San Diego and it has been shown that he's not even that important there, it's more of a system thing...considering the year Rivers had last season.'Crippler said:I agree. In fact I kind of like the VJax side as I think he is a nice upgrade to Dwayne Bowe. But I am not as high on Bowe as most are. Just think that Champ showed how to take him out. Knox is probably more valuable than Harvin in terms of fantasy and Benn has proven nothing. 2nd rounder might get okay WR to replace.'squistion said:I dunno - doesn't seem particularly that one sided to me.'Instinctive said:
I was in the pool
Footballguy
Still can't believe how overvalued V.Jackson is...so inconsistent and has yet to put a great season in a great offense and a great QB. He's already 28 as well. He's a sell - someone in the league would still be infatuated enough to overpay for what you will get from him. When would you start him exactly? So streaky. Draftmaster/Best ball, a better scenario to have VJax, but filling out a lineup card? Not on my team.
Mighty Mice
Footballguy
I feel VJax is held back by the SD offense. In an offense where he is the clear #1 and the dominant target I think he gets a HUGE spike in targets, especially in the red zone where he can use his size, and catapults into the upper echelon of FFL WR's. Everything is there - He's a 6'5" 230 lb physical freak who was a long-term prospect who came from a small school (Northern Colorado) and took 4 years to came into his own. Once he did, with Gates et al to share with, in 2008 he had only a meager 101 targets. 2009 was barely better with a scant 107 targets. On 208 targets he accumulated 127 catches (61%) and 2265 yards (17.83 yards per catch). Obviously, these are VJax's last two full seasons, as 2010 was lost to a holdout. Using Bowes last two full seasons (suspension in 2009) - Bowe had 157 targets in 2008, yet yielded only 86 receptions. In 2010 Bowe had 133 targets and caught 72 passes. On 290 targets he accumulated 158 catches (54%) and 2184 yards (13.82 yards per catch).No dog in this fight - just think VJax is being undervalued in dynasties where he goes after Bowe, and there are quite a few I've seen this be the case. He's bigger, faster, has much better hands, is a better deep ball target, and does more with less than Bowe. Sans Gates, VJax is an elite WR. 2009 VJax = 67/1167/9 on only 107 targets. Give him the 130+ targets Bowe garners and the difference would be visible. Still wouldn't trade Bowe and Harvin for him!
So you think if VJax were on KC last year instead of Bowe he would maintain that catch% and YPC? Do you think it is a coincidence that when Vjax was out that Floyd, or whoever was playing the #1 WR role in SD put up similar numbers? I have no dog in this fight either, I own each of them in only 1 of 4 dynasty leagues, and it happens to be on the same team. I dont want to brag......or do I.....but neither will even be starting for me much this season.
Mighty Mice
Footballguy
Merely conjecture, but I do believe Jackson would have a significntly higher catch %. Bowe has terrible hands, among the league leaders in drops. Jackson has much better hands. VJax, like Bowe, takes the #1 CBs each week. Like Bowe, he plays in the AFC West, facing Bailey and Aso twice each year. So there is some basis for comparative evaluation. Rivers helps, to be sure, but Cassel had a spectacular 2010 as well. Not exactly the Larry Fitzgerald situation in KC - Bowe saw good balls. He just drops quite a few of them. As per the YPC, it's just indicitive that VJax is a better downfield/vertical threat than Bowe. Really not much debate there. Yes, that's the SD offense, but it's also one of the skills VJax brings to the table that Bowe does not IMO. Anyone who owned/watched Floyd can attest he has never put up numbers similar to Jackson. Gates was producing a record-setting year in his absence; Floyd posted 37 catches on 77 targets in 11 games - a catch% of 48%!! Rivers completed 66% on the year. Jeez. Floyd is a 6'5" deep threat - he has that much and nothing more in common with Jackson. Jackson is a much better WR and brings a more complete game. Rivers missed Jackson sorely in 2010.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Never put up numbers similar to Jackson? The first five games of the season, before Floyd was injured, he put up at least 18 points 3 times, in my PPR league, including one monster 30+ point game. He even had a big game or two over 20 points when he came back from injury weeks later, although he was still hurt.
Basically, he showed the ability to put up very similar numbers to VJ...and the same ability to be frustratingly inconsistent even in a top offense.
So is Floyd that talented, or is VJ that overrated by some? that's the question. If we were talking about Toby Gerhart starting in place of an injured AP and easily matching his numbers/consistency (or lack thereof), it wouldn't even be a question that the situation is GREATLY effecting both backs' success.
Not a perfectly clean comparison, but you get the point.
It's laughable to say that Rivers 'sorely missed' VJ during his career year, especially since a veteran WR with a similar physical profile to VJ filled in admirably.
Basically, he showed the ability to put up very similar numbers to VJ...and the same ability to be frustratingly inconsistent even in a top offense.
So is Floyd that talented, or is VJ that overrated by some? that's the question. If we were talking about Toby Gerhart starting in place of an injured AP and easily matching his numbers/consistency (or lack thereof), it wouldn't even be a question that the situation is GREATLY effecting both backs' success.
Not a perfectly clean comparison, but you get the point.
It's laughable to say that Rivers 'sorely missed' VJ during his career year, especially since a veteran WR with a similar physical profile to VJ filled in admirably.
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Where to start with this.How about Bowes terrible hands. In a career year in every category, Bowe dropped a total of 6 passes....and at least 2 of those were in the Monday night monsoon opening weekend. Among the league leader in drops? are you just making stuff up? Wes Welker dropped 13 passes last year and Bowe didn't even show up in the top 25. Not sure how that is among the league leaders.Cassel had a great year? He had an OK year, but I would attribute that more to Bowe. Cassel spent the season force feeding passes to Bowe despite how tight the coverage was. Cassel can in no way be compared to Rivers. Also which WR do you think gets more attention from opposing defenses? Career catch %: Vincent Jackson 56.3%, Dwayne Bowe 55.8%.Really no debating that VJax is a better deep threat than Bowe? Philip Rivers(and likely also Gates) has alot to do with VJax higher ypc than Bowe. Jackson did average an impressive 17.7ypc last season. However, the two leading WRs in SD(in receptions) Malcolm Floyd, and Patrick Crayton averaged 19.4 and 18.4. By the way, Dwayne Bowe averaged 16.1 ypc, the next best player on the entire team didnt even hit 12.Saving the best for last. Rivers missed Jackson sorely in 2010?!?! Unless VJax gives really good hugs or something I'm not sure how Rivers missed him. Rivers had a career year and did it not only without Jackson, but also his starting left tackle and most importantly Antonio Gates.....along with most of his other wrs and starting rb for large chunks of time. I'm sure Rivers would have preferred him there, but to say he sorely missed him is the overstatement of the year. On top of that, did you ever think there is a reason VJax has never had more than 107 targets in a season? Other than the fact that Gates gets alot, because there isnt much competition for targets after that.Edit to add that I do think Jackson is a good WR, I just dont think he is clearly better(if at all) than Bowe. If I had to pick which one was more talented I would take Bowe, but its close.
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Couch Potato
Footballguy
24 team PPR (two identical 12 team conferences)
Start 1-1-1-1-1-1 and 3 flex RWT
Team A gave up:
Charles, Jamaal KCC RB
Slaton, Steve HOU RB
Snelling, Jason ATL RB
Year 2012 Round 4 Draft Pick from Team A
Fighting Couch Potatoes 2 gave up:
Brady, Tom NEP QB
Alexander, Danario STL WR
Year 2012 Round 1 Draft Pick from Fighting Couch Potatoes 2
Year 2013 Round 1 Draft Pick from Fighting Couch Potatoes 2
------------
I feel good about this deal. I won the league last year and have a strong team again most likely the next 2 years so the first rounders s/b late. Gave up Brady but also own Brees, Cutler. While he offered the other crap, I was only looking for Charles who now gives me PPR starters:
QB1 Brees, Drew
RB1 Johnson, Chris
RB2 Charles, Jamaal
RB3 Foster, Arian
RB4 Jackson, Fred
WR1 Nicks, Hakeem
TE1 Witten, Jason
Start 1-1-1-1-1-1 and 3 flex RWT
Team A gave up:
Charles, Jamaal KCC RB
Slaton, Steve HOU RB
Snelling, Jason ATL RB
Year 2012 Round 4 Draft Pick from Team A
Fighting Couch Potatoes 2 gave up:
Brady, Tom NEP QB
Alexander, Danario STL WR
Year 2012 Round 1 Draft Pick from Fighting Couch Potatoes 2
Year 2013 Round 1 Draft Pick from Fighting Couch Potatoes 2
------------
I feel good about this deal. I won the league last year and have a strong team again most likely the next 2 years so the first rounders s/b late. Gave up Brady but also own Brees, Cutler. While he offered the other crap, I was only looking for Charles who now gives me PPR starters:
QB1 Brees, Drew
RB1 Johnson, Chris
RB2 Charles, Jamaal
RB3 Foster, Arian
RB4 Jackson, Fred
WR1 Nicks, Hakeem
TE1 Witten, Jason
The Comedian
Footballguy
Really like it for you. I might even go so far as to call it a steal. Seems a little uneven that the other guy wants to give up a young stud to grab a middle-aged QB + future picks, but obviously depends on the make up of his team. Anyway I like the value + the team situation for you.
I was in the pool
Footballguy
Love leagues with 2-3 flex spots - adds to the different strategies you can have as an owner.
sihaokills
Footballguy
Pretty fair likes Bowe side better'thriftyrocker said:
sihaokills
Footballguy
Nice deal for you
sihaokills
Footballguy
Wow even with a 2QB league'fdctrumpet said:
Mighty Mice
Footballguy
Edit b/c not sure how to cut and paste and make it look ok!
"How about Bowes terrible hands. In a career year in every category, Bowe dropped a total of 6 passes....and at least 2 of those were in the Monday night monsoon opening weekend. Among the league leader in drops? are you just making stuff up? Wes Welker dropped 13 passes last year and Bowe didn't even show up in the top 25. Not sure how that is among the league leaders."
Making it up? Let's look at the facts. Ever since his time at LSU the knock on Bowe has been his hands. That's ok, though, and certainly did not/will not keep him from being a dominant WR - Terrell OWens proved that. Not really sure what qualifies as a "dropped pass" for statistical purposes - IMO it's about as relevant as passer rating for a QB. However, in 2008 Bowe was 2nd in the NFL in drops. In 2009 Bowe was the league leader in dropped passes and he only playedd 11 games!! If you watch Bowe, his hands are average at best. It's just not his strong point, but as I said, he still is a dominant WR overall.
2008 - http://sports.myway.com/nfl/stats/passesdropped.html - Bowe was second in the NFL to Braylon Edwards in drops. Yuck.
2009 - http://ffarmory.com/main_blogs/2009-dropped-passes-stats - league leader despite missing 11 games
Since when does Bowe have good or even average hands?
"[Cassel] Had a great year? He had an OK year, but I would attribute that more to Bowe. Cassel spent the season force feeding passes to Bowe despite how tight the coverage was. Cassel can in no way be compared to Rivers."
Oh, c'mon! No one is comparing Cassel to Rivers. Cassel did, however make the Pro Bowl with a 58% completion rate and a 27-7 TD/INT ratio! Hardly poor QB play - that was my only point. This is not a bad place for a WR to thrive.
"Also which WR do you think gets more attention from opposing defenses?"
Probably the same. Both are the #2 offensive weapons on their team - Charles and Gates take top honors, respectively.
Career catch %: Vincent Jackson 56.3%, Dwayne Bowe 55.8%.
Last two full seasons for each - 61% for Jackson, 54% for Bowe. Jackson was a "late bloomer" from a small school. Bowe was much more NFL ready.
"Really no debating that VJax is a better deep threat than Bowe? Philip Rivers(and likely also Gates) has alot to do with VJax higher ypc than Bowe. Jackson did average an impressive 17.7ypc last season. However, the two leading WRs in SD(in receptions) Malcolm Floyd, and Patrick Crayton averaged 19.4 and 18.4. By the way, Dwayne Bowe averaged 16.1 ypc, the next best player on the entire team didnt even hit 12."
Floyd and Crayton are strictly deep threats, not possession guys. Of course the ypc are higher. And, as you said, Rivers is a superior QB. Not surprising KC had no one else over 12 ypc - Bowe is the only quality WR rostered IMO. Not sure what these stats show, except Tony Moeaki and Dexter McCluster were rookies, and as the second and third (not counting RB's - Charles had 45 catches) they were not able to stretch the field.
"Saving the best for last. Rivers missed Jackson sorely in 2010?!?! Unless VJax gives really good hugs or something I'm not sure how Rivers missed him. Rivers had a career year and did it not only without Jackson, but also his starting left tackle and most importantly Antonio Gates.....along with most of his other wrs and starting rb for large chunks of time. I'm sure Rivers would have preferred him there, but to say he sorely missed him is the overstatement of the year."
Nope. Rivers year would have been better with VJax. He clearly is their best WR. No Charger passed 800 yards recieving. Give credit to Rivers for spreading the ball around - he's an elite QB.
"On top of that, did you ever think there is a reason VJax has never had more than 107 targets in a season? Other than the fact that Gates gets alot, because there isnt much competition for targets after that."
Well, over the course of VJax's career, LT and Gates got the looks and he was option 3. No need to force feed him the ball a la Bowe. In 2009, with LT gone, Jackson totaled 68/1167/9 in 15 games. His role was expanding. It's unfortunate we did not get a chance to see his growth in 2010 with River's "career year" as you call it. I expect in 2011, either in SD or elsewhere, Jackson shows exactly what he can do. IMO he's an elite talent.
"Edit to add that I do think Jackson is a good WR, I just dont think he is clearly better(if at all) than Bowe. If I had to pick which one was more talented I would take Bowe, but its close."
Agreed. VJax is in the top 10, Bowe is not. But it's close. On a personal note, I enjoy the debate - you know your stuff. I just disagree but that is what makes the hobby fun!
"How about Bowes terrible hands. In a career year in every category, Bowe dropped a total of 6 passes....and at least 2 of those were in the Monday night monsoon opening weekend. Among the league leader in drops? are you just making stuff up? Wes Welker dropped 13 passes last year and Bowe didn't even show up in the top 25. Not sure how that is among the league leaders."
Making it up? Let's look at the facts. Ever since his time at LSU the knock on Bowe has been his hands. That's ok, though, and certainly did not/will not keep him from being a dominant WR - Terrell OWens proved that. Not really sure what qualifies as a "dropped pass" for statistical purposes - IMO it's about as relevant as passer rating for a QB. However, in 2008 Bowe was 2nd in the NFL in drops. In 2009 Bowe was the league leader in dropped passes and he only playedd 11 games!! If you watch Bowe, his hands are average at best. It's just not his strong point, but as I said, he still is a dominant WR overall.
2008 - http://sports.myway.com/nfl/stats/passesdropped.html - Bowe was second in the NFL to Braylon Edwards in drops. Yuck.
2009 - http://ffarmory.com/main_blogs/2009-dropped-passes-stats - league leader despite missing 11 games
Since when does Bowe have good or even average hands?
"[Cassel] Had a great year? He had an OK year, but I would attribute that more to Bowe. Cassel spent the season force feeding passes to Bowe despite how tight the coverage was. Cassel can in no way be compared to Rivers."
Oh, c'mon! No one is comparing Cassel to Rivers. Cassel did, however make the Pro Bowl with a 58% completion rate and a 27-7 TD/INT ratio! Hardly poor QB play - that was my only point. This is not a bad place for a WR to thrive.
"Also which WR do you think gets more attention from opposing defenses?"
Probably the same. Both are the #2 offensive weapons on their team - Charles and Gates take top honors, respectively.
Career catch %: Vincent Jackson 56.3%, Dwayne Bowe 55.8%.
Last two full seasons for each - 61% for Jackson, 54% for Bowe. Jackson was a "late bloomer" from a small school. Bowe was much more NFL ready.
"Really no debating that VJax is a better deep threat than Bowe? Philip Rivers(and likely also Gates) has alot to do with VJax higher ypc than Bowe. Jackson did average an impressive 17.7ypc last season. However, the two leading WRs in SD(in receptions) Malcolm Floyd, and Patrick Crayton averaged 19.4 and 18.4. By the way, Dwayne Bowe averaged 16.1 ypc, the next best player on the entire team didnt even hit 12."
Floyd and Crayton are strictly deep threats, not possession guys. Of course the ypc are higher. And, as you said, Rivers is a superior QB. Not surprising KC had no one else over 12 ypc - Bowe is the only quality WR rostered IMO. Not sure what these stats show, except Tony Moeaki and Dexter McCluster were rookies, and as the second and third (not counting RB's - Charles had 45 catches) they were not able to stretch the field.
"Saving the best for last. Rivers missed Jackson sorely in 2010?!?! Unless VJax gives really good hugs or something I'm not sure how Rivers missed him. Rivers had a career year and did it not only without Jackson, but also his starting left tackle and most importantly Antonio Gates.....along with most of his other wrs and starting rb for large chunks of time. I'm sure Rivers would have preferred him there, but to say he sorely missed him is the overstatement of the year."
Nope. Rivers year would have been better with VJax. He clearly is their best WR. No Charger passed 800 yards recieving. Give credit to Rivers for spreading the ball around - he's an elite QB.
"On top of that, did you ever think there is a reason VJax has never had more than 107 targets in a season? Other than the fact that Gates gets alot, because there isnt much competition for targets after that."
Well, over the course of VJax's career, LT and Gates got the looks and he was option 3. No need to force feed him the ball a la Bowe. In 2009, with LT gone, Jackson totaled 68/1167/9 in 15 games. His role was expanding. It's unfortunate we did not get a chance to see his growth in 2010 with River's "career year" as you call it. I expect in 2011, either in SD or elsewhere, Jackson shows exactly what he can do. IMO he's an elite talent.
"Edit to add that I do think Jackson is a good WR, I just dont think he is clearly better(if at all) than Bowe. If I had to pick which one was more talented I would take Bowe, but its close."
Agreed. VJax is in the top 10, Bowe is not. But it's close. On a personal note, I enjoy the debate - you know your stuff. I just disagree but that is what makes the hobby fun!
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Billy Ball Thorton
Footballguy
VJax is so overrated it makes me laugh. I would rather have Harvin by a good chunk over VJAX
He is a good player, i just dont see how people think he is better than guys like Dwayne Bowe...at least a in shape Dwayne Bowe. I guess we will find out if Jackson is the real deal when he doesnt have Rivers throwing to him. Although i could see the Colts or Patriots making a move for him before the 2012 season, which means his talent will be overvalued again.
I was in the pool
Footballguy
I think V.Jax' best function in an offense is a guy that runs 9-routes and takes a safety with him. Also some fade routes at the GL. I would take Harvin over him as well.
I was in the pool
Footballguy
The fact that V.Jax has been so inconsistent with Rivers is a downgrade to Jackson's overall outlook and a testament to Rivers'
Mighty Mice
Footballguy
I'm not - and not going to become - the president of the VJax fan club, so I'll let this go - but in sum Bowe had a perfect storm in 2010. Here's why I expect a regression from Bowe and will take VJax over him easily in all formats:a) In 2010 KC had the easiest pass schedule I have ever seen. Look up the splits! b) There was no competition for targets and Bowe was fed balls. With Baldwin in the mix and the improved play of Moeaki and McCluster, his targets likely go down. c) He leads the NFL in drops over the last 3 seasons combined. (2nd in 2008 and 1st in 2009 - his lower total in 2010 bodes well however) And, where can I find some info on VJax's inconsistency as compared to other top WR's? His last full season (2009) he had 4+ receptions in 12 out of 15 games - every WR has a clunker or two. He's not immune, but he wasn't some "feast or famine" WR and never has been. Obviously, I believe his talent is on par with the elite and he is on the upswing. Most sites (including this one, thank you Mr. Dodds and Mr. Wood) have him ranked in the top-5 for the upcoming year and significantly ahead of Bowe. Dynasty rankings across the net vary, but most have Jackson ahead of Bowe (in some cases significantly) and Harvin a tier or two below them both. I agree for reasons stated. Sorry all for the hijack re: trades and the purpose of the thread.
sihaokills
Footballguy
Team A trades Toby Gerhart
Team B trades Rashad Jennings
Handcuff exchange
Team B trades Rashad Jennings
Handcuff exchange
I might rank Jackson ahead of Bowe in redraft this year depending what happens in SD. If he stays and Floyd leaves I likely will. I was talking about talent/dynasty value though. The pessimist would call Bowes season the perfect storm, or assume he will go back to dropping more passes, or that Baldwin lining up on the other side might hurt him, or a tougher schedule would be a bad thing. Bowe was in betterr shape and clearly more focused last season. Assuming that doesn't change I see no reason why he wont continue to not drop passes. As much as the running game helped alleviate some of the attention paid to Bowe, its not like having Gates or Floyd. Plus LT wasnt a bad RB himself. Bowe saw more coverage last year than Jackson has ever seen. Baldwin could help that. A tougher schedule could result in more passes being thrown. The Chiefs led the league in rushes last year, so the pass attempts have nowhere to go but up.VJax is a good player as far as I'm concerned, I just think his talent is overrated. As long as he is in SD, he will be a top 15 WR though.As far as hijacking the thread, I think the purpose of the thread is to lead to discussions like this. I dont think people really care what trades others have made.
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Kleck
Footballguy
Wish I could have helped you. I've bought Smith in a couple of leagues and paid as much as 1.12. I'd also take him over Britt.
JEWMAH9701
Footballguy
12-Team PPR Dynasty
Start QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, RB/WR, K, 2DB, 2DL, 3LB
Team A Gives:
Paul Posluszny
Team B Gives:
Rashad Jennings
2011 Draft Pick 2.02 (Randall Cobb)
Start QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, RB/WR, K, 2DB, 2DL, 3LB
Team A Gives:
Paul Posluszny
Team B Gives:
Rashad Jennings
2011 Draft Pick 2.02 (Randall Cobb)
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Green, A.J. WR CIN - Traded from Team N
Floyd, Malcom WR SD
Grant, Ryan RB GB
Manningham, Mario WR NYG - Traded from Team B
ETA: I wasn't involved in this trade, it's from a league that I commish. I like Manningham quite a bit, but think this was a horrible trade for Team N, especially since he spent the whole pre-draft period trading away veterans to get draft picks after announcing he was rebuilding.
Floyd, Malcom WR SD
Grant, Ryan RB GB
Manningham, Mario WR NYG - Traded from Team B
ETA: I wasn't involved in this trade, it's from a league that I commish. I like Manningham quite a bit, but think this was a horrible trade for Team N, especially since he spent the whole pre-draft period trading away veterans to get draft picks after announcing he was rebuilding.
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King of the Jungle
Footballguy
A bunch of crud for the 1.1. One of these parties should be very happy!
sihaokills
Footballguy
What the hell!!!
sihaokills
Footballguy
Wow... Strange
I was in the pool
Footballguy
Jennings is a far better dynasty player IMO. Gerhart is not the heir-apparent to ADP in Minnesota. Handcuffs in dynasty are less important than redrafts in my opinion because you could be sitting on a guy that isn't that good of a player just because he is #2 on the depth chart, which could be a very short-lived situation.
sihaokills
Footballguy
Surprised when I saw this...
Clifford
Footballguy
Yeah team b got raped.
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