2015 Rookie RB Class, Who's the BEST? (2 Viewers)

[jurb26]

There is nothing wrong with Gordon's size. Nothing what so ever. His running talent is remarkably similar to J. Charles. There is little to no wasted motion and an unreal ability to cut without loss of speed. Better yet, he runs with great vision and doesn't force his speed. Without taking time to consider his running style in relation to his size and frame the size and frame is rather meaningless. Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213 and won't be confused with a big back but he runs with good power and I don't see any reason to worry about that at the NFL level. For reference Charles checked into the combine at 6'1" 200. The way I see it, Gordon is basically a Charles-like prospect with BETTER size.

Charles was actually 5'11" 200 pounds at the combine. Right now Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213. That's good for a BMI of 28.1.

Here are the current successful NFL backs with a similar BMI score:

Reggie Bush - 28.3

Adrian Peterson - 28.3

Jamaal Charles - 27.9

CJ Spiller - 27.7

Chris Johnson - 27.5

Clearly Gordon's size alone will not prevent him from having a successful NFL career. I don't know if anyone has argued otherwise. However, one thing that jumps out about the above group of players is their exceptional speed and mobility. Big backs can get away with mediocre speed and explosion, but there are no thin backs lighting up the NFL without freaky speed and burst. Here are the 40 times of the above backs:

Reggie Bush - 4.37

Adrian Peterson - 4.40

Jamaal Charles - 4.38

CJ Spiller - 4.27

Chris Johnson - 4.24

The average of the group is 4.33 and the worst time is 4.40. Light and thin backs need to be really fast to thrive in the NFL. With that in mind, I'd say that anything above 4.40 would be a somewhat disappointing time for Gordon. The above backs generally tested well in the jumps too, so that's something I'd want to see from Gordon as well. I think he has a track background as a long jumper, so I wouldn't expect that to be a problem for him. The 40 time I'm less sure on. I think he might be capable of 4.3X, but he doesn't have the 100m background that most of these guys had and his speed doesn't pop off the screen in the same way that Spiller's and Johnson's did. I would guess 4.38-4.45 as the range for him. If it's the bottom of that range when the dust settles then that would be a little bit of a red flag for me.

Subjectively, I'm not sure Charles and Gordon are as parallel as they might seem. You can check out their college highlights here and make up you own mind:

I agree. It my biggest issue with Gordon is his leg drive which is inconsistent at times.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

I'm not seeing much in the way of impressive cutting ability when I watch Melvin Gordon. Not that he's incapable of cutting, but I definitely wouldn't say he cuts sharp or quick compared to NFL RBs. Certainly not near the level of Jamaal Charles imo.

 

[cloppbeast]

To me the difference in those runs is the ability of Gordon to read the hole early enough to not NEED that dramatic cut. It doesn't mean he can't make it. Gordon began his adjustment to that on coming defender before he even hand the handoff. Notice the hard plant on his left foot, outside foot which is correct mind you, as he's taking the handoff. The early adjustment allowed him a smoother transition to get outside his T and the outreaching guy he was engaged with. I don't think he makes that secondary hole without his great recognition and burst to that lane early. Had he waited the dramatic cut would have reduced his angle and compromised the run.Abdulah was in more of an open field scenario and needed the dramatic cut because he was running at greater speed.

To me the Gordon run is more impressive because it happens in traffic at the LOS and in tighter space. It required vision and eye discipline. I'm not saying Abdulah doesn't have that. I just haven't seen it like I have with Gordon.

Abdullah's run looks more aesthetically pleasing because it is more dramatic in movement. That doesn't make it the better run IMO.

I didn't intend to compare their runs from top to bottom, only to compare their cutting ability. I meant to say more about Gordon's change of direction than Abdulah's, within the scope of Gordon v. Charles. I stand by my contention that Melvin lacks the out-of-this-world maneuverability of Charles, when it comes to avoiding tackles.

Edit: you might be right about the play not requiring a dramatic cut. But, in fact, in the few games I've watched from Gordon, that play demonstrated the best change of direction I've seen from him; it's not unimpressive, but also not inspiring.

 

[Xue]

Posted Today, 06:08 PM

jurb26, on 19 Aug 2014 - 5:06 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with Gordon's size. Nothing what so ever. His running talent is remarkably similar to J. Charles. There is little to no wasted motion and an unreal ability to cut without loss of speed. Better yet, he runs with great vision and doesn't force his speed. Without taking time to consider his running style in relation to his size and frame the size and frame is rather meaningless. Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213 and won't be confused with a big back but he runs with good power and I don't see any reason to worry about that at the NFL level. For reference Charles checked into the combine at 6'1" 200. The way I see it, Gordon is basically a Charles-like prospect with BETTER size.

How much difference will the extra ten pounds make in the NFL? I'd say not much considering neither Gordon nor Charles will offer much in the way off power. Running backs in their vein make their living by forcing defender whiffs rather than churning out extra yards. I don't see the same change of direction from Gordon, so I hesitate to comp him to Charles. Even if they have similar style, speed, and burst, Gordon lacks that one characteristic which makes Charles special. The extra 10 pounds doesn't make up for it.

Though, I wouldn't call Gordon's change of direction poor, just not enough to put him on the same pedestal as some around here. Gordon shows he can move around (gif) in hitting this hole; but contrast for comparison's sake to Ameer Abdullah (gif) dodging this defender. It appears obvious to me Abdulah far exceeds in being able to throttle down without changing velocity. Possibly Gordon hasn't given it everything in that clip, but I haven't found any evidence he has similar ability.

You just compared a 5'8"-5'9" 190-195lb RB to one that is 6'1" 213-216lbs. Of RBs close to Gordon in size, probably only Adrian Peterson makes a cut like that. And no one has ever said Gordon is on that level.

 

[EBF]

There is nothing wrong with Gordon's size. Nothing what so ever. His running talent is remarkably similar to J. Charles. There is little to no wasted motion and an unreal ability to cut without loss of speed. Better yet, he runs with great vision and doesn't force his speed. Without taking time to consider his running style in relation to his size and frame the size and frame is rather meaningless. Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213 and won't be confused with a big back but he runs with good power and I don't see any reason to worry about that at the NFL level. For reference Charles checked into the combine at 6'1" 200. The way I see it, Gordon is basically a Charles-like prospect with BETTER size.

Charles was actually 5'11" 200 pounds at the combine. Right now Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213. That's good for a BMI of 28.1.

Here are the current successful NFL backs with a similar BMI score:

Reggie Bush - 28.3

Adrian Peterson - 28.3

Jamaal Charles - 27.9

CJ Spiller - 27.7

Chris Johnson - 27.5

Clearly Gordon's size alone will not prevent him from having a successful NFL career. I don't know if anyone has argued otherwise. However, one thing that jumps out about the above group of players is their exceptional speed and mobility. Big backs can get away with mediocre speed and explosion, but there are no thin backs lighting up the NFL without freaky speed and burst. Here are the 40 times of the above backs:

Reggie Bush - 4.37

Adrian Peterson - 4.40

Jamaal Charles - 4.38

CJ Spiller - 4.27

Chris Johnson - 4.24

The average of the group is 4.33 and the worst time is 4.40. Light and thin backs need to be really fast to thrive in the NFL. With that in mind, I'd say that anything above 4.40 would be a somewhat disappointing time for Gordon. The above backs generally tested well in the jumps too, so that's something I'd want to see from Gordon as well. I think he has a track background as a long jumper, so I wouldn't expect that to be a problem for him. The 40 time I'm less sure on. I think he might be capable of 4.3X, but he doesn't have the 100m background that most of these guys had and his speed doesn't pop off the screen in the same way that Spiller's and Johnson's did. I would guess 4.38-4.45 as the range for him. If it's the bottom of that range when the dust settles then that would be a little bit of a red flag for me.

Subjectively, I'm not sure Charles and Gordon are as parallel as they might seem. You can check out their college highlights here and make up you own mind:

Neither omission was deliberate, but McCoy's combine BMI was 29.0, which is shading closer to average bulk. I don't think he's anything like Gordon in terms of his anatomy or running style. He has some similarities with Reggie Bush, but is more bottom-heavy with less sheer speed and superior elusiveness.

Forte is in the thin range at 28.3. Like Peterson, he benefits by being taller and thus having a higher overall weight even though he's relatively lean. Gordon also has that going for him relative to guys like CJ Spiller and Jamaal Charles. Even though he's lean like them, he's taller, heavier, and probably more powerful than those guys. At the same time, I don't feel like his speed is on par with Spiller/CJ2K/Charles or that his cutting ability/functional power are on par with Forte/Peterson. Fine differences in his actual numbers could shift the discussion a little bit once he's measured and tested, but right now there may be some risk of him landing in a bit of a tweener zone where he's not big enough to run with power, not elusive enough to succeed with that, and not fast enough to be a pure burner.

That remains to be seen to some extent, but if his 6'1" 213 pound dimensions hold then he's going to need to demonstrate exceptional mobility to check out as an elite prospect because he won't have the requisite frame to thrive with merely good speed and quickness. A light back needs to be able to run past everyone (CJ2K), run around them (Bush), or both (Charles).

 

[ConnSKINS26]

I think Gordon might be suffering a bit from A.J. Green syndrome. Makes it look so easy that people say he doesn't look as explosive or dynamic as other players at his position.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

I also kind of doubt he's 6'1". How many players measure up to their listed height? He'll probably measure in close to 6'0" even and it will change the perception, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Xue]

There is nothing wrong with Gordon's size. Nothing what so ever. His running talent is remarkably similar to J. Charles. There is little to no wasted motion and an unreal ability to cut without loss of speed. Better yet, he runs with great vision and doesn't force his speed. Without taking time to consider his running style in relation to his size and frame the size and frame is rather meaningless. Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213 and won't be confused with a big back but he runs with good power and I don't see any reason to worry about that at the NFL level. For reference Charles checked into the combine at 6'1" 200. The way I see it, Gordon is basically a Charles-like prospect with BETTER size.

Charles was actually 5'11" 200 pounds at the combine. Right now Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213. That's good for a BMI of 28.1.

Here are the current successful NFL backs with a similar BMI score:

Reggie Bush - 28.3

Adrian Peterson - 28.3

Jamaal Charles - 27.9

CJ Spiller - 27.7

Chris Johnson - 27.5

Clearly Gordon's size alone will not prevent him from having a successful NFL career. I don't know if anyone has argued otherwise. However, one thing that jumps out about the above group of players is their exceptional speed and mobility. Big backs can get away with mediocre speed and explosion, but there are no thin backs lighting up the NFL without freaky speed and burst. Here are the 40 times of the above backs:

Reggie Bush - 4.37

Adrian Peterson - 4.40

Jamaal Charles - 4.38

CJ Spiller - 4.27

Chris Johnson - 4.24

The average of the group is 4.33 and the worst time is 4.40. Light and thin backs need to be really fast to thrive in the NFL. With that in mind, I'd say that anything above 4.40 would be a somewhat disappointing time for Gordon. The above backs generally tested well in the jumps too, so that's something I'd want to see from Gordon as well. I think he has a track background as a long jumper, so I wouldn't expect that to be a problem for him. The 40 time I'm less sure on. I think he might be capable of 4.3X, but he doesn't have the 100m background that most of these guys had and his speed doesn't pop off the screen in the same way that Spiller's and Johnson's did. I would guess 4.38-4.45 as the range for him. If it's the bottom of that range when the dust settles then that would be a little bit of a red flag for me.

Subjectively, I'm not sure Charles and Gordon are as parallel as they might seem. You can check out their college highlights here and make up you own mind:

How would he demonstrate exceptional mobility? On tape or in a drill?

I think it's pretty silly to have such strict adherence to the numbers in this context. If Melvin Gordon magically puts on 10-15 lbs and reaches an acceptable BMI threshold to you, is that really going to make him a better RB?

 

[EBF]

I think Gordon might be suffering a bit from A.J. Green syndrome. Makes it look so easy that people say he doesn't look as explosive or dynamic as other players at his position.

I'd say Green makes it look a lot harder than better physical specimens like Calvin, Demaryius, and Gordon, but that's beside the discussion here.

The NFL is a much higher level than even major college football. I think NFL defenses put much more pressure on a RB's ability to create his own yards. Almost all of the top guys have an exceptional ability to break tackles with quickness and/or power. If a RB lacks that ability, there's a pretty good chance that he'll struggle. Consider the examples of Adrian Peterson and Darren McFadden. Both guys are really fast and both were totally dominant in college, but Peterson is the only one of the two with power and elusiveness. That's why he has been consistently excellent in the NFL whereas McFadden has looked like a guy who needs the right kind of blocking to have any effectiveness. DMC has 3/6 seasons below 3.5 YPC whereas Peterson has 7/7 seasons at or above 4.4 YPC. That's ultimately down to Peterson being a much more complete back who can excel in a wider variety of ways. He can win with quickness, speed, or power. McFadden can really only win with speed, as he lacks any real leg drive or 1v1 make-you-miss ability.

When you look at Melvin Gordon, quite a few of his highlights are basically just straight sprints where he gets to the edge and runs long. IMO that type of play doesn't tell you much about how a guy's skill set might translate to the NFL because if he wins the edge uncontested and never has to make a cut then he hasn't been pressured in any way besides having to run fast. On the other hand, when you see a guy weaving through traffic, bouncing off tackles, and breaking ankles in a phone booth then I think you're seeing skills that are more likely to translate to the NFL (where most of the work is dirty and the overwhelming majority of carries are <10 yards). That being said, Gordon might not be LeSean McCoy or Ameer Abdullah when it comes to juking people, but he's not Darren McFadden or Knile Davis either. He does have some elusiveness and wiggle. When you watch his highlight reels, you'll see some plays where he shows quick feet to slip a tackle. The power isn't really there and I think there's still a little bit of doubt about whether or not he's on the uber-athlete level where he'll probably need to be, but I'm far more optimistic about him than I was about the likes of Knile Davis and Darren McFadden.

 

[Xue]

I also kind of doubt he's 6'1". How many players measure up to their listed height? He'll probably measure in close to 6'0" even and it will change the perception, rightly or wrongly.

His latest quoted weight is 216. It's very possible he could put on 5-10 lbs to please the BMI fanatics. Here are some recent players who "bulked up" and their listed and Combine weights:

DeAndre Hopkins: 205, 214 (currently listed at 218)

Allen Robinson: 210, 220

Cordarrelle Patterson: 205, 216 (currently listed at 220)

Kenjon Barner: 182, 196

Ronnie Hillman: 190, 200

 

[EBF]

How would he demonstrate exceptional mobility? On tape or in a drill?

Speed usually shows up in 40 times and 100m times, but quickness is more intangible. There's nothing in LeSean McCoy's workout numbers that reflects his on-field elusiveness, so it's something that you'd have to pick up on your own or by trusting scouting reports from others who have observed it.

As for Gordon's tangibles, I already know from watching him run that he's not a great functional power guy. He's a somewhat high-cut runner. Long-ish legs and a high center of gravity. More power in his thighs than the likes of Charles, but not built sturdy and compact throughout the lower body ala JStew/MJD/Dyer. If he's going to win in the NFL, it's probably going to be with speed and quickness. With that in mind, the best thing he could do to solidify his stock would be to run a blistering 40 time. If you think his game film already proves that he has blazing speed and you're confident rolling with that then that's your call, but it's always nice when the numbers corroborate what you think you're seeing.

 

[Nero]

There is nothing wrong with Gordon's size. Nothing what so ever. His running talent is remarkably similar to J. Charles. There is little to no wasted motion and an unreal ability to cut without loss of speed. Better yet, he runs with great vision and doesn't force his speed. Without taking time to consider his running style in relation to his size and frame the size and frame is rather meaningless. Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213 and won't be confused with a big back but he runs with good power and I don't see any reason to worry about that at the NFL level. For reference Charles checked into the combine at 6'1" 200. The way I see it, Gordon is basically a Charles-like prospect with BETTER size.

Charles was actually 5'11" 200 pounds at the combine. Right now Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213. That's good for a BMI of 28.1.

Here are the current successful NFL backs with a similar BMI score:

Reggie Bush - 28.3

Adrian Peterson - 28.3

Jamaal Charles - 27.9

CJ Spiller - 27.7

Chris Johnson - 27.5

Clearly Gordon's size alone will not prevent him from having a successful NFL career. I don't know if anyone has argued otherwise. However, one thing that jumps out about the above group of players is their exceptional speed and mobility. Big backs can get away with mediocre speed and explosion, but there are no thin backs lighting up the NFL without freaky speed and burst. Here are the 40 times of the above backs:

Reggie Bush - 4.37

Adrian Peterson - 4.40

Jamaal Charles - 4.38

CJ Spiller - 4.27

Chris Johnson - 4.24

The average of the group is 4.33 and the worst time is 4.40. Light and thin backs need to be really fast to thrive in the NFL. With that in mind, I'd say that anything above 4.40 would be a somewhat disappointing time for Gordon. The above backs generally tested well in the jumps too, so that's something I'd want to see from Gordon as well. I think he has a track background as a long jumper, so I wouldn't expect that to be a problem for him. The 40 time I'm less sure on. I think he might be capable of 4.3X, but he doesn't have the 100m background that most of these guys had and his speed doesn't pop off the screen in the same way that Spiller's and Johnson's did. I would guess 4.38-4.45 as the range for him. If it's the bottom of that range when the dust settles then that would be a little bit of a red flag for me.

Subjectively, I'm not sure Charles and Gordon are as parallel as they might seem. You can check out their college highlights here and make up you own mind:

I disagree with you in that I think Gordon will run fast enough to be lumped in with Spiller, CJ2k and Charles. I think he is a better inside runner than all three and runs with sufficient strength and balance.

 

[Xue]

How would he demonstrate exceptional mobility? On tape or in a drill?

Speed usually shows up in 40 times and 100m times, but quickness is more intangible. There's nothing in LeSean McCoy's workout numbers that reflects his on-field elusiveness, so it's something that you'd have to pick up on your own or by trusting scouting reports from others who have observed it.

As for Gordon's tangibles, I already know from watching him run that he's not a great functional power guy. He's a somewhat high-cut runner. Long-ish legs and a high center of gravity. More power in his thighs than the likes of Charles, but not built sturdy and compact throughout the lower body ala JStew/MJD/Dyer. If he's going to win in the NFL, it's probably going to be with speed and quickness. With that in mind, the best thing he could do to solidify his stock would be to run a blistering 40 time. If you think his game film already proves that he has blazing speed and you're confident rolling with that then that's your call, but it's always nice when the numbers corroborate what you think you're seeing.

Speed doesn't always show up in the 40.David Wilson only ran a 4.49 Official. Lamar Miller ran 4.40 Official. How many people would have said Miller is faster or "more explosive"? Which guy has been faster in the NFL on the field?

If only David Wilson could have stayed healthy, he would have bucked the trend of "having a blazing 40 for a light back" because he makes up for it with crazy vertical and broad jump figures. And that's the kind of Combine "profile" I'm expecting from Gordon.

Besides, Gordon is probably gonna run a 4.40 and people are still gonna say "I never saw that on the field". LOL.

 

[Xue]

If anyone is looking for a different comparison for Gordon's running style, I'll go with Joique Bell. But watch Gordon from 2012, though.

http://youtu.be/qYH38SdwLqM?t=11m18s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VvrkgR3tYg

He didn't start doing the "toe-tapping" syle cuts until 2013. Basically evolved as a runner and learned to run with more patience with lighter footing. in 2012, he had more of that "David Wilson returning kicks" look.

 

[jurb26]

To me the difference in those runs is the ability of Gordon to read the hole early enough to not NEED that dramatic cut. It doesn't mean he can't make it. Gordon began his adjustment to that on coming defender before he even hand the handoff. Notice the hard plant on his left foot, outside foot which is correct mind you, as he's taking the handoff. The early adjustment allowed him a smoother transition to get outside his T and the outreaching guy he was engaged with. I don't think he makes that secondary hole without his great recognition and burst to that lane early. Had he waited the dramatic cut would have reduced his angle and compromised the run.

Abdulah was in more of an open field scenario and needed the dramatic cut because he was running at greater speed.

To me the Gordon run is more impressive because it happens in traffic at the LOS and in tighter space. It required vision and eye discipline. I'm not saying Abdulah doesn't have that. I just haven't seen it like I have with Gordon.

Abdullah's run looks more aesthetically pleasing because it is more dramatic in movement. That doesn't make it the better run IMO.

I didn't intend to compare their runs from top to bottom, only to compare their cutting ability. I meant to say more about Gordon's change of direction than Abdulah's, within the scope of Gordon v. Charles. I stand by my contention that Melvin lacks the out-of-this-world maneuverability of Charles, when it comes to avoiding tackles.

Edit: you might be right about the play not requiring a dramatic cut. But, in fact, in the few games I've watched from Gordon, that play demonstrated the best change of direction I've seen from him; it's not unimpressive, but also not inspiring.

I don't think that play demonstrates the best cutting ability Gordon has from that game to be honest. Here is the game. There are better cuts, by better I mean more dramatic, at 2:30 and 4:00. The 4:00 run is very impressive with 2 jump cuts in traffic. Both display his ability to quickly throttle down by shuffling his feet and immediately bursting upfield. He keeps his shoulders square to the LOS on both runs and gets good leverage. I think the 2:30 run would be more applicable to the Abdulah run to be honest. http://youtu.be/s5WehTed5PA

 

[cloppbeast]

Posted Today, 06:08 PM

jurb26, on 19 Aug 2014 - 5:06 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with Gordon's size. Nothing what so ever. His running talent is remarkably similar to J. Charles. There is little to no wasted motion and an unreal ability to cut without loss of speed. Better yet, he runs with great vision and doesn't force his speed. Without taking time to consider his running style in relation to his size and frame the size and frame is rather meaningless. Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213 and won't be confused with a big back but he runs with good power and I don't see any reason to worry about that at the NFL level. For reference Charles checked into the combine at 6'1" 200. The way I see it, Gordon is basically a Charles-like prospect with BETTER size.

How much difference will the extra ten pounds make in the NFL? I'd say not much considering neither Gordon nor Charles will offer much in the way off power. Running backs in their vein make their living by forcing defender whiffs rather than churning out extra yards. I don't see the same change of direction from Gordon, so I hesitate to comp him to Charles. Even if they have similar style, speed, and burst, Gordon lacks that one characteristic which makes Charles special. The extra 10 pounds doesn't make up for it.

Though, I wouldn't call Gordon's change of direction poor, just not enough to put him on the same pedestal as some around here. Gordon shows he can move around (gif) in hitting this hole; but contrast for comparison's sake to Ameer Abdullah (gif) dodging this defender. It appears obvious to me Abdulah far exceeds in being able to throttle down without changing velocity. Possibly Gordon hasn't given it everything in that clip, but I haven't found any evidence he has similar ability.

You just compared a 5'8"-5'9" 190-195lb RB to one that is 6'1" 213-216lbs. Of RBs close to Gordon in size, probably only Adrian Peterson makes a cut like that. And no one has ever said Gordon is on that level.

Some have comped Gordon to Charles. Since I couldn't make a gif of Charles cutting, I used the best I could find. I'm pretty sure anything Abdullah can do, Charles can do better. I don't think Gordon remotely compares to Charles in change of direction.

 

[Xue]

So who would you compare Gordon to? What percentage of Gordon is Charles if any? Can you put a number on it?

 

[Xue]

For a supposed immensely talented RB with great BMI yo, Dyer seems to have trouble staying healthy.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2014/08/19/u-l-rb-michael-dyer-day-day-thigh-contusion/14311199/

 

[EBF]

Pretty much a non-story. He left the scrimmage on Saturday with an undisclosed knee injury. Turned out to be a thigh contusion (deep bruise). It might slow him down for the opener against Miami on the 1st, but shouldn't have a major impact on his season. I've been following the practice reports on him and they've generally been very good:

rickbozich ‏@rickbozich Aug 16

About seven series into the Louisville football scrimmage and Michael Dyer has been the most impressive back.

Steven Rummage ‏@Stiz_CSZ Aug 16

Michael Dyer looks primed to do something special this year.

That's just two Twitter posts, but it's been pretty much the same story everywhere I looked since they started practice.

I have some devy investment in other CFB backs like Thomas Tyner and Nick Chubb, but Dyer is probably the guy I'm most eager to see this season. Probably because perception of his value is most out of whack with how good he actually is. If he's 100% and playing, my guess is that it will only take a handful of games to (re-)open some eyes.

 

[jurb26]

Posted Today, 06:08 PM

jurb26, on 19 Aug 2014 - 5:06 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with Gordon's size. Nothing what so ever. His running talent is remarkably similar to J. Charles. There is little to no wasted motion and an unreal ability to cut without loss of speed. Better yet, he runs with great vision and doesn't force his speed. Without taking time to consider his running style in relation to his size and frame the size and frame is rather meaningless. Gordon is listed at 6'1" 213 and won't be confused with a big back but he runs with good power and I don't see any reason to worry about that at the NFL level. For reference Charles checked into the combine at 6'1" 200. The way I see it, Gordon is basically a Charles-like prospect with BETTER size.

How much difference will the extra ten pounds make in the NFL? I'd say not much considering neither Gordon nor Charles will offer much in the way off power. Running backs in their vein make their living by forcing defender whiffs rather than churning out extra yards. I don't see the same change of direction from Gordon, so I hesitate to comp him to Charles. Even if they have similar style, speed, and burst, Gordon lacks that one characteristic which makes Charles special. The extra 10 pounds doesn't make up for it.

Though, I wouldn't call Gordon's change of direction poor, just not enough to put him on the same pedestal as some around here. Gordon shows he can move around (gif) in hitting this hole; but contrast for comparison's sake to Ameer Abdullah (gif) dodging this defender. It appears obvious to me Abdulah far exceeds in being able to throttle down without changing velocity. Possibly Gordon hasn't given it everything in that clip, but I haven't found any evidence he has similar ability.

You just compared a 5'8"-5'9" 190-195lb RB to one that is 6'1" 213-216lbs. Of RBs close to Gordon in size, probably only Adrian Peterson makes a cut like that. And no one has ever said Gordon is on that level.

Some have comped Gordon to Charles. Since I couldn't make a gif of Charles cutting, I used the best I could find. I'm pretty sure anything Abdullah can do, Charles can do better. I don't think Gordon remotely compares to Charles in change of direction.

People are comparing him to Charles because it's a solid comparison. Change of direction isn't the only aspect of running. None the less, there are similarities between the way Gordon holds speed as he changes direction to Charles. Charles is a smaller and lighter man with better speed so of course he's better in this regard. There are other similarities as well. Read bellow. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/47985/349/preseason-look-melvin-gordon

 

[cloppbeast]

People are comparing him to Charles because it's a solid comparison. Change of direction isn't the only aspect of running. None the less, there are similarities between the way Gordon holds speed as he changes direction to Charles. Charles is a smaller and lighter man with better speed so of course he's better in this regard. There are other similarities as well. Read bellow.http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/47985/349/preseason-look-melvin-gordon

The two have a lot of similarities, but Gordon lacks the quality which makes Charles a special talent. Gordon's additional weight does not compensate. Even having lost 15lbs, I don't think he would have the agility/throttle down of Charles.

To put a number on it, I'd say in speed, and acceleration Gordon is nearly 100% of Charles, but only about 50% in changing direction.

 

[DAG]

I came away from Melvin Gordon's performance against LSU really, really impressed. I didn't get to watch him much beyond highlights last season and all of what I read indicated that he was mostly a guy who got to the edge and outside on sprints. Against us he ran tough inside, showed great burst, and looked really fast. We're young on defense but we have a lot of speed and he was just faster than us, especially in terms of decisively getting through holes and seams. He also looked bigger than I expected (thicker, sturdier). During the game and after there were a lot of questions as to why he got so few carries in the second half. If he had I don't think we win that game; we just couldn't stop him.

The announcers mentioned during the game that Wisc wants to get him more involved as a receiver and Gordon insists that he can catch, but I hope they actually use him a bit as a receiver so we get a good look. There were a couple times they tried to throw to him but the plays were off; I think in one case Gordon didn't run the route well.

 

[EBF]

If Gordon has great speed, don't you think he would've scored here?

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11441911

Nice patience on that run, but I think Spiller/CJ2K/Bush would've taken that to the house once they got into the open. I'm not sure Gordon is going to run the kind of 40 time you'd hope for from a guy with his height/weight. Then again, it was only one run. His initial burst of speed is one of his best attributes and he definitely looks bigger than the three I mentioned. He has evolved a bit from two years ago and looks a bit stronger overall. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up running in the 4.4X range, but coming in shorter/heavier than listed.

 

[elguapo07]

If Gordon has great speed, don't you think he would've scored here?

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11441911

Nice patience on that run, but I think Spiller/CJ2K/Bush would've taken that to the house once they got into the open. I'm not sure Gordon is going to run the kind of 40 time you'd hope for from a guy with his height/weight. Then again, it was only one run. His initial burst of speed is one of his best attributes and he definitely looks bigger than the three I mentioned. He has evolved a bit from two years ago and looks a bit stronger overall. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up running in the 4.4X range, but coming in shorter/heavier than listed.

EBF,I love Gordon and was a bit surprised he didn't take this to the house as well. He looked good but that run was only a triple when the 3 you mentioned would have hit the homerun. Will be watching him all year as I'm very intrigued.

 

[BigTex]

If Gordon has great speed, don't you think he would've scored here?

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11441911

Nice patience on that run, but I think Spiller/CJ2K/Bush would've taken that to the house once they got into the open. I'm not sure Gordon is going to run the kind of 40 time you'd hope for from a guy with his height/weight. Then again, it was only one run. His initial burst of speed is one of his best attributes and he definitely looks bigger than the three I mentioned. He has evolved a bit from two years ago and looks a bit stronger overall. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up running in the 4.4X range, but coming in shorter/heavier than listed.

I watched that game and thought the exact same thing. It makes me wonder about his long speed, no way he should have been caught.

 

[tdmills]

Was he really going to get caught though? It looked like he just started to doubt himself and angled to the sideline.

 

[gianmarco]

Jeff Potrykus ✔ @jaypo1961 Follow

#Badgers Andersen on Gordon. He had hip flexor issue that limited him second half.

12:34 PM - 1 Sep 2014

Could be why he got caught and why he didn't play much in the 2nd half.

 

[Xue]

Umm...perhaps the guy who caught him is actually faster than him. This is LSU here.

He's going to run a 40 similar to David Wilson. Wilson was very explosive, but could be run down as well.

 

[gianmarco]

Umm...perhaps the guy who caught him is actually faster than him. This is LSU here.

He's going to run a 40 similar to David Wilson. Wilson was very explosive, but could be run down as well.

He was caught by Jalen Collins, ranked in the top 10 at CB by most. Watching the video, he was flying down the field. No one else would have caught Gordon.

 

[Nero]

If Gordon has great speed, don't you think he would've scored here?

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11441911

Nice patience on that run, but I think Spiller/CJ2K/Bush would've taken that to the house once they got into the open. I'm not sure Gordon is going to run the kind of 40 time you'd hope for from a guy with his height/weight. Then again, it was only one run. His initial burst of speed is one of his best attributes and he definitely looks bigger than the three I mentioned. He has evolved a bit from two years ago and looks a bit stronger overall. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up running in the 4.4X range, but coming in shorter/heavier than listed.

I have seen enough of Bush to know he is not as fast as Spiller and CJ2K, he might have been caught as well. I'm pretty sure Gordon was going to get caught on that run. I came away thinking Jalen Collins is fast as hell.

 

[Xue]

Exactly. SEC speed guys. This wasn't no Big Ten opponent. It also says a lot about Jay Ajayi's performance as well going up an SEC team behind his weak MWC O-line.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

First of all, no one has any idea what his size really is. Listed heights/weights are often hilariously wrong when we get real numbers.

Ditto that for the combine measurements.

Having said... he does look like Charles when he runs. Same general build, and very smooth and under control.

But Charles would have housed that. Gordon didn't just get run down, the guy behind him made him look like he was standing still.

 

[jurb26]

Umm...perhaps the guy who caught him is actually faster than him. This is LSU here.

He's going to run a 40 similar to David Wilson. Wilson was very explosive, but could be run down as well.

Yeah, it helps to know WHO caught him. Collins is perhaps a top 15 pick in NFL draft and a top CB prospect. Long, lean and super athletic CB has great physical tools. He was probably the only guy on the field capable of catching him. This should not deter anyone from thinking Gordon is fast. He is. He isn't Charles fast though. Charles was a legit US track athlete. Also, as was point out by others Gordon was not playing 100% in the second half and at the time of that run.

 

[Xue]

I dont follow college much but does anyone have any early rankings of the top 5-10 RB in next years draft

Here's my early rankings based who I think will declare:

1. Todd Gurley
2. Melvin Gordon
3. Karlos Williams
4. Jay Ajayi
5. Mike Davis
6. TJ Yeldon
7. Ameer Abdullah
8. Duke Johnson
9. Tyreek Hill
10. Paul James
11. Javorius Allen
12. Keith Marshall
13. Tevin Coleman
14. Corey Grant

Two guys who are eligible but are only rSO that I have in my top 10 based on talent are Dwayne Washington and Barry Sanders Jr.

What a debut by Tyreek Hill. Everything I expected from him and lived up to the hype. I'm starting to think #9 is too low. I think I'd take this kid ahead of Abdullah and Duke. He's only probably 5 lbs lighter than Abdullah, just as strong of a runner, and much faster. So much quickness, elusiveness, wiggle, speed, stop/start, cutting, etc.

Some GIFs here: http://www.ocolly.com/blogs/article_9381a728-325d-11e4-81e7-001a4bcf6878.html

You can see his strength in #8 GIF: http://gfycat.com/HeavyLongIcefish

He breaks a tackle from #4 DT Georgio Newberry who is 6-6 285lbs. Both arms wrapped: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwlfRoXCMAAuUiK.jpg

Really hope he declares, but has recently said he wants to graduate: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-state-football-tyreek-hill-talks-educational-goals-ill-be-the-first-one-to-graduate-in-my-family/article/5338170

 

[EBF]

There's always a place for speed in the NFL and Hill might be the fastest man in football, but he could be more slot WR than RB when all is said and done.

 

[Xue]

There's always a place for speed in the NFL and Hill might be the fastest man in football, but he could be more slot WR than RB when all is said and done.

I strongly disagree. He looks more like a RB than the recent small and speedy guys DAT and Archer. He's mostly running traditional run plays and not gadget plays. He runs compact and he's falling forward on his runs. He's got more strength than Jahvid Best did and might be even more explosive. Not a short-strider like Tavon Austin. So he's likely going to put up a really good broad jump and vertical. Jahvid Best was really fast, but had average vertical and broad jump. Hill's strides (and/or feet) are so quick and can get short or long when needed.

He's ran a lot of sub-21 200m times. That's just crazy long speed for a 5'9'-5'10" guy.

I don't get why he needs to be switched to a slot/gadget player just because he's really fast. If Ameer Abdullah was a 4.3 guy would we do the same? This kid was breaking tackles against FSU here.

 

[EBF]

We'll see, but I'd guess that he'll end up in a hybrid role. He's listed at WR by ESPN and as an "ATH" by the OSU website. They have him at 5'10" 185 on the OSU website, but at 5'8" 175 on his Wikipedia page. Either one of those would be very small for a RB. Size isn't everything, but it does matter to an extent. You probably wouldn't want a 175-185 pound guy getting whacked 15-20 times per game by NFL defenders. Then there's the question of whether or not he can run inside at all. The GIFs on that page demonstrate his playmaking ability in space, but everything he does is bounced outside / on the edges. The ability to run inside is also important in the NFL. Especially if a guy is going to be a full-time RB.

Athletically, he definitely looks thicker and stronger than guys like Cooks and Tavon. The way they utilized him in his first game was more consistent with the idea of him as a "slash" type of player though. 8 carries and 6 catches. If that pattern holds then his usage will be somewhere in the middle between Percy Harvin and Warrick Dunn. I'm not sure a team is going to look at a player like that and think, "This is our franchise back." More likely they'll see him as an explosive chess piece. The good news is that he has off-the-charts speed and, unlike Marquise Goodwin or Jeff Demps, actually looks like a football player. With RBBC being commonplace these days and with PPR leagues being the norm, a guy can have value without toting the ball 250+ times or being a full-time outside WR.

 

[strong]

Speed doesn't always show up in the 40.

David Wilson only ran a 4.49 Official. Lamar Miller ran 4.40 Official. How many people would have said Miller is faster or "more explosive"? Which guy has been faster in the NFL on the field?

David Wilson had INSANE broad jump and vert jump and VERY good shuttle and cone numbers. Lamar didn't participate in those because he loved his 40 time. But judging from their careers so far and the fact that Wilson's numbers are at the very high end in both jumping categories, I doubt Miller would have held a candle to Wilson in the explosive measurements.

40 time is hardly a good way to determine explosiveness. Or even football speed for that matter.

 

[Xue]

Melvin Gordon can catch!

https://twitter.com/dpbrugler/status/509109638235975680

He can catch. #Wisconsin RB Melvin Gordon had only 3 career catches before posting 4 receptions on Saturday #NFLDraft https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxC4hLkIAAAGATp.jpg

 

[jurb26]

Melvin Gordon can catch!

https://twitter.com/dpbrugler/status/509109638235975680

He can catch. #Wisconsin RB Melvin Gordon had only 3 career catches before posting 4 receptions on Saturday #NFLDraft https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxC4hLkIAAAGATp.jpg

Is there supposed to be a video or just the pic? Looks good in the pic.

 

[BigTex]

I still believe that Gurley is #1 at this point but #2 is not so clear cut anymore. There are some guys how are really surprising.

 

[jurb26]

I still believe that Gurley is #1 at this point but #2 is not so clear cut anymore. There are some guys how are really surprising.

Who are you conflicted at for #2?

 

[Xue]

Melvin Gordon can catch!

https://twitter.com/dpbrugler/status/509109638235975680

He can catch. #Wisconsin RB Melvin Gordon had only 3 career catches before posting 4 receptions on Saturday #NFLDraft https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxC4hLkIAAAGATp.jpg

Is there supposed to be a video or just the pic? Looks good in the pic.

Only a pic.

 

[Xue]

I still believe that Gurley is #1 at this point but #2 is not so clear cut anymore. There are some guys how are really surprising.

The only RB I can see overtaking Gordon is Karlos Williams.

 

[Fever in the Funkhouse]

Gordon making a good case today. Wow

 

[BigTex]

Gordon making a good case today. Wow

I'm a fan of Gordpn but Bowling Green is garbage.....they give up points and records nearly every week. Gordon performed as he should have against a defense that is weak as wet toilet tissue.....

 

[Xue]

"Melvin Gordon is a straight-line runner."

http://gfycat.com/GiddyFairBoaconstrictor

Dude has plenty of moves to dispel the straightline label. He showed more shoulder fakes and stutter steps than usual vs Bowling Green. Great pad level between the tackles again.

Here are some highlights:

 

[Xue]

"Todd Gurley lacks lateral quickness."

False!

http://gfycat.com/PointlessGregariousAfricanparadiseflycatcher

http://gfycat.com/GraveHealthyBullmastiff

http://gfycat.com/HardtofindWeightyArcticwolf

 

[Xue]

Just made a deal for a Top 3 pick in 2015. Any rankings list of the projected players, Seniors and Juniors, in 2015 anywhere?

Who is everyones #1 overall fantasy pick for next year at this point?

There are probably quite a few posts on that topic already.

You might find this link helpful:

http://ffoasis.com/devy/rankings/2015/BigBoard.php

IMO the devy community is a bit of an echo chamber and the groupthink within it leads to certain clusters of players becoming overrated while others become underrated, but the link will give you an idea of what you might expect from a typical devy draft.

Interesting list. There's just a tonne of value to be had in late round RBs in devy drafts right now imo.

Byron Marshall looks the most overrated to me. He's fast but he's not very shifty at all, especially for such a small and skinny back. He'll be a nobody in the NFL imo, he'd be on my do-not-draft list for devy drafts, let alone a top 10 pick.

After him, Melvin Gordon strikes me as a guy who's very overrated right now, by this time next year I think there'll be a consensus that there's a bunch of other RBs who are in his tier as a prospect, if not higher than him.

One of those RBs I think fits into that category is Javorius Allen; he's ~6'0 215lbs, plays for national powerhouse USC, and he put up these numbers over the final 6 game stretch of the season against PAC-10 teams:

106 carries, 648 rushing yards (6.11 YPC), 12 rushing TDs, 19 receptions, 243 receiving yards (12.8 YPR), 1 receiving TD.

Frankly I don't get why he's so underrated right now. He's bigger, shiftier, and perhaps just as fast as Melvin Gordon, yet he doesn't even make that list of 25 prospects. Imo he's in the same tier as Melvin Gordon right now if not higher.

This is from a different thread, but wanted to bring the discussion here.....

Allen goes down way too easily on ankle tackles compared to Gordon. He's #37 in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GauOGG01fX8

Regardless, I don't think the talent level is close between Allen and Gordon. Gordon looks like he can put up a 40" vertical and 11' broad jump. I just don't see that with Allen, though I do like him very much. His Sophomore teammate is more talented, Justin Davis. The kid (literally) averaged 6.8 YPC while he was still 17 years old last season.

As for Byron Marshall, he's shown shiftiness when he needs it: http://youtu.be/0V6T2P2AIOc?t=1m24s

Time Kibitzer, is Javorius Allen still in the same tier as Melvin Gordon?

Don't answer that because I already know the answer.

 

[EBF]

Is your skin so thin that you need to bump multiple old threads just to call someone out because of a perceived slight?

Don't answer that because I already know the answer.