***2015 San Diego Chargers - Offseason News, Notes, & Analysis*** (1 Viewer)

[Gr00vus]

I like the players they've added/kept so far, but I'd need to see more details on the Jones and Flowers deals before I can say how happy I am about them - all depends on the amount of guaranteed money and the structuring.

JWB - they haven't had anyone scary on returns since Sproles left town, if Jones stays healthy he'll give them that. 6 extra yards a return can be big when you're playing the field position game, plus he can actually break it long on occasion. I don't rate him as a legitimate WR anymore. Maybe he'll surprise there but I'm not counting on it. I liked what I saw from Inman last year, I'd rather see him get the reps than Ajirotutu.

 

[Tau837]

I like the players they've added/kept so far, but I'd need to see more details on the Jones and Flowers deals before I can say how happy I am about them - all depends on the amount of guaranteed money and the structuring.

JWB - they haven't had anyone scary on returns since Sproles left town, if Jones stays healthy he'll give them that. 6 extra yards a return can be big when you're playing the field position game, plus he can actually break it long on occasion. I don't rate him as a legitimate WR anymore. Maybe he'll surprise there but I'm not counting on it. I liked what I saw from Inman last year, I'd rather see him get the reps than Ajirotutu.

Regarding Jones:

1. Return teams are successful because of 11 guys and coaching, not just the returner. Jones is an upgrade at returner for sure, but I would be very surprised if he duplicates his success in Baltimore, where Harbaugh is a former special teams coach. In 5 years in Houston, Jones averaged 23.3 yard per kickoff return. In 3 years in Baltimore, he averaged 30.1. Coincidence? I don't think so.

2. Last season, the Chargers allowed 22.2 yards per kickoff return, 8th best in the league. Ajirotutu was a key performer in that area. Will the Chargers kickoff coverage suffer without him? If so, will that offset any gain provided by Jones' returns?

3. Is there any data out there that shows any correlation between having the best or one of the best return games and winning more games and/or scoring more points? I suspect if a study exists or was performed, it would show weak correlation at best.

4. Agree I'd rather see Inman get offensive snaps than Ajirotutu, but that would have happened no matter what. If Ajirotutu was resigned instead of signing Jones, he would have been the #5 WR, which is what I assume Jones will now be. Inman would be the #3/#4 and thus would have been ahead of Ajirotutu just as he should now be ahead of Jones.

Bottom line, IMO Ajirotutu for ~$750K > Jones at $2.5M to $3M, in part because that would leave around $2M to spend on something else.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I like the players they've added/kept so far, but I'd need to see more details on the Jones and Flowers deals before I can say how happy I am about them - all depends on the amount of guaranteed money and the structuring.

JWB - they haven't had anyone scary on returns since Sproles left town, if Jones stays healthy he'll give them that. 6 extra yards a return can be big when you're playing the field position game, plus he can actually break it long on occasion. I don't rate him as a legitimate WR anymore. Maybe he'll surprise there but I'm not counting on it. I liked what I saw from Inman last year, I'd rather see him get the reps than Ajirotutu.

Regarding Jones:

1. Return teams are successful because of 11 guys and coaching, not just the returner. Jones is an upgrade at returner for sure, but I would be very surprised if he duplicates his success in Baltimore, where Harbaugh is a former special teams coach. In 5 years in Houston, Jones averaged 23.3 yard per kickoff return. In 3 years in Baltimore, he averaged 30.1. Coincidence? I don't think so.

2. Last season, the Chargers allowed 22.2 yards per kickoff return, 8th best in the league. Ajirotutu was a key performer in that area. Will the Chargers kickoff coverage suffer without him? If so, will that offset any gain provided by Jones' returns?

3. Is there any data out there that shows any correlation between having the best or one of the best return games and winning more games and/or scoring more points? I suspect if a study exists or was performed, it would show weak correlation at best.

4. Agree I'd rather see Inman get offensive snaps than Ajirotutu, but that would have happened no matter what. If Ajirotutu was resigned instead of signing Jones, he would have been the #5 WR, which is what I assume Jones will now be. Inman would be the #3/#4 and thus would have been ahead of Ajirotutu just as he should now be ahead of Jones.

Bottom line, IMO Ajirotutu for ~$750K > Jones at $2.5M to $3M, in part because that would leave around $2M to spend on something else.

Jones is a much better player than Ajirotutu. Far more accomplished at both WR and as a returner - it's not really close.

Do we have contract details beyond the reported 2/5.5?

 

[Tau837]

I like the players they've added/kept so far, but I'd need to see more details on the Jones and Flowers deals before I can say how happy I am about them - all depends on the amount of guaranteed money and the structuring.

JWB - they haven't had anyone scary on returns since Sproles left town, if Jones stays healthy he'll give them that. 6 extra yards a return can be big when you're playing the field position game, plus he can actually break it long on occasion. I don't rate him as a legitimate WR anymore. Maybe he'll surprise there but I'm not counting on it. I liked what I saw from Inman last year, I'd rather see him get the reps than Ajirotutu.

Regarding Jones:

1. Return teams are successful because of 11 guys and coaching, not just the returner. Jones is an upgrade at returner for sure, but I would be very surprised if he duplicates his success in Baltimore, where Harbaugh is a former special teams coach. In 5 years in Houston, Jones averaged 23.3 yard per kickoff return. In 3 years in Baltimore, he averaged 30.1. Coincidence? I don't think so.

2. Last season, the Chargers allowed 22.2 yards per kickoff return, 8th best in the league. Ajirotutu was a key performer in that area. Will the Chargers kickoff coverage suffer without him? If so, will that offset any gain provided by Jones' returns?

3. Is there any data out there that shows any correlation between having the best or one of the best return games and winning more games and/or scoring more points? I suspect if a study exists or was performed, it would show weak correlation at best.

4. Agree I'd rather see Inman get offensive snaps than Ajirotutu, but that would have happened no matter what. If Ajirotutu was resigned instead of signing Jones, he would have been the #5 WR, which is what I assume Jones will now be. Inman would be the #3/#4 and thus would have been ahead of Ajirotutu just as he should now be ahead of Jones.

Bottom line, IMO Ajirotutu for ~$750K > Jones at $2.5M to $3M, in part because that would leave around $2M to spend on something else.

Jones is a much better player than Ajirotutu. Far more accomplished at both WR and as a returner - it's not really close. Do we have contract details beyond the reported 2/5.5?

Jones may be more accomplished as a WR but he is a poor WR. Ajirotutu's role was to play special teams and be an emergency WR. That is likely Jones' role now. I certainly hope the Chargers aren't envisioning Jones as a top 4 WR.

Yes, Jones is a more accomplished returner than Ajirotutu. But he also costs 3-4 times as much. My entire point is that the benefit Jones provides isn't worth the cost.

Sooner or later, the team will sign a lesser free agent or two. And we will be left to wonder if they could have signed someone better if they had an extra $2M.

I have not seen any contract details.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I know it comes off as a fanboy fascinated by the fancy new toy in FA, but Andre Johnson would kind of be a perfect fit in SD imo. He spoke about wanting the opportunity to continue to be productive being a big reason he wanted to leave HOU. The losing obviously had to get to him.

SD and HOU were both 9-7 last season.

 

[BoltBacker]

I know it comes off as a fanboy fascinated by the fancy new toy in FA, but Andre Johnson would kind of be a perfect fit in SD imo. He spoke about wanting the opportunity to continue to be productive being a big reason he wanted to leave HOU. The losing obviously had to get to him.

SD and HOU were both 9-7 last season.

True, but AJ has been trying to get out of town for an entire year and SD is 18-14 in that time, and HOU is 11-21 and SD has had more playoff success over those two years. In particular, the 2013 season saw AJ display at least one uncharacteristic meltdown on the field. He seemed frustrated to me.

 

[Tau837]

I know it comes off as a fanboy fascinated by the fancy new toy in FA, but Andre Johnson would kind of be a perfect fit in SD imo. He spoke about wanting the opportunity to continue to be productive being a big reason he wanted to leave HOU. The losing obviously had to get to him.

SD and HOU were both 9-7 last season.

True, but AJ has been trying to get out of town for an entire year and SD is 18-14 in that time, and HOU is 11-21 and SD has had more playoff success over those two years. In particular, the 2013 season saw AJ display at least one uncharacteristic meltdown on the field. He seemed frustrated to me.

Sounds like he will sign with Indy.

 

[BoltBacker]

My opinion of the signing of Flowers for $9mil/season may be in the minority, "Is Brandon Flowers to the Chargers the steal of early free agency?"....

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2390701-is-brandon-flowers-to-chargers-the-steal-of-early-free-agency

Maybe ALL CB's making huge money is just the new normal. Maxwell signs for $10+mil, Jackson for $8+mil, Skrine for $6+mil, and last but not least Cary Williams for $6mil. Is Williams even any good? These prices seem crazy to me. All this while Murray(an MVP candidate) hopes to sign for $8mil/season in his prime!

If this is the new economics of CB position I think you have to take a couple of swings each year and try to develop one. My real question is which would have been better?...

Flowers a top ~15 CB(@$9mil&29yo)+Cameron Erving starting at C with the 1st round pick

Better/Worse

Hudson a top ~5 C(@$9mil&25yo)+Trae Waynes starting at CB with the 1st round pick

On top of that C's usually play into their 30's, but Flowers has shown in KC he has trouble working inside as a nickle back and doesn't have the size to play any FS if(when) he loses a step and no longer can hold up on the outside.

Honestly, I think they are both overpaid. Especially as a 26yo SS Searcy goes off the board @$6mil/season. He would have been a perfect fit for the SD defense imo as he is more versatile and covers better than your average SS.

 

[BoltBacker]

I know it comes off as a fanboy fascinated by the fancy new toy in FA, but Andre Johnson would kind of be a perfect fit in SD imo. He spoke about wanting the opportunity to continue to be productive being a big reason he wanted to leave HOU. The losing obviously had to get to him.

SD and HOU were both 9-7 last season.

True, but AJ has been trying to get out of town for an entire year and SD is 18-14 in that time, and HOU is 11-21 and SD has had more playoff success over those two years. In particular, the 2013 season saw AJ display at least one uncharacteristic meltdown on the field. He seemed frustrated to me.

Sounds like he will sign with Indy.

Yeah, but there are also MIA rumors which don't make sense to me. I would think SD would be a more desirable destination than MIA for every reason but tax reasons and I'm assuming based on the teams being thrown around attached to Johnson that money isn't nearly as a big factor in his decision as winning.

 

[BoltBacker]

Gotta love what TT is doing. Such a nice change of culture around here with our 1 year free-agent prove it deals. We should have no problem in the future landing these guys. TT is basically saying come on down, work with us for a year, and if its a good fit for both of us we WILL give you the deal that you're worth.

I hope you are right.

Not sure what the Flowers/Bowe relationship was in KC all those years they were together. If Bowe were willing to sign a prove-it-deal I think he and Rivers would form a much better rapport than he ever had with Smith. Rivers is willing to give his WR's the chance to make a play on the ball even when they are covered and Smith never seemed to be willing to take that chance. Bowes targets have eroded every year since 2011 to the point Bowe only got double digit targets last year.

 

[Gr00vus]

Detroit gets Ngata for a 4th and 5th rounder. His contract is pretty steep - still should the Chargers have made a play for him? I'm thinking not, but he's been a really good NT in the 3/4. Could have got the Chargers through a couple of years while they look for a long term answer.

 

[BoltBacker]

Locker retires. I wonder if anyone even showed any interest? Seems like a great guy and would have been a perfect backup in the NFL in a worst case scenario.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2388163-jake-locker-retires-latest-details-comments-and-reaction

 

[ldizzle]

Looks like they signed Austin Pettis.

 

[Tau837]

They resigned Ricardo Mathews.

 

[Bucky86]

####!

Apparently Andre Johnson was going to sign with SD if he made it out of Indy. Plane was waiting for him. #### #### #### ####

 

[Bucky86]

#### #### #### #### #### ####

 

[BoltBacker]

####!

Apparently Andre Johnson was going to sign with SD if he made it out of Indy. Plane was waiting for him. #### #### #### ####

I dunno, I thought he would be a perfect fit for SD.... BUT I assume SD had to be offering him more $ and 3yr/$22+mil would have been a pill to swallow for a 34y/o WR. Luck is young so I'm not even sure why INDY is overpaying for guys like Gore/Johnson that have a very, very narrow window left to contribute. Anyone think either of those guys are around at the end of those 3yr contracts? I really would have though INDY would be wiser giving that type of money to Murray.

I do give Telesco credit for being aggressive. They were rumored to be in play for Steve Smith last year too if I remember correctly.

I'll bet Bowe could be had on a shorter deal for half of that and he's younger.

 

[BoltBacker]

The Jacoby Jones contract isn't as bad as I thought, btw. He counts $1.7mil against the cap this season, then next season SD would have $800k in dead money if they release him. Maybe they think he can contribute at WR, and if they are wrong they aren't on the hook for all that much.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Please dont sign reggie wayne

 

[Tau837]

Please dont sign reggie wayne

 

[ol blues]

####!

Apparently Andre Johnson was going to sign with SD if he made it out of Indy. Plane was waiting for him. #### #### #### ####

I dunno, I thought he would be a perfect fit for SD.... BUT I assume SD had to be offering him more $ and 3yr/$22+mil would have been a pill to swallow for a 34y/o WR. Luck is young so I'm not even sure why INDY is overpaying for guys like Gore/Johnson that have a very, very narrow window left to contribute. Anyone think either of those guys are around at the end of those 3yr contracts? I really would have though INDY would be wiser giving that type of money to Murray.I do give Telesco credit for being aggressive. They were rumored to be in play for Steve Smith last year too if I remember correctly.

I'll bet Bowe could be had on a shorter deal for half of that and he's younger.

Gore and AJ fit the Indy offense perfectly and give the Colts a shot now before Luck's contract extension eats up cap space. Quality moves.

 

[BoltBacker]

Detroit gets Ngata for a 4th and 5th rounder. His contract is pretty steep - still should the Chargers have made a play for him? I'm thinking not, but he's been a really good NT in the 3/4. Could have got the Chargers through a couple of years while they look for a long term answer.

That doesn't bother me nearly as much as letting Knighton go to WAS for 1yr/$4mil. Jeebus, could have filled both NT and SS for less than $8mil against the cap in 2015 with Knighton/Searcy. Certainly would have given you a lot more options in the draft.

 

[BoltBacker]

I wonder what you would have to add to L.Green to get NO to part with Stills/Evans? Stills has value for sure but NO seems desperate to clear up cap space and they would get a lot of room the next two years clearing out Evans and have a cheap young receiving TE in Green. Lord knows there isn't much in the draft at TE this year to help them replace Graham.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Stills would be a nice addition, and I'm not a huge LGreen guy, but if we dealt him we would have a hole.

 

[BoltBacker]

Stills would be a nice addition, and I'm not a huge LGreen guy, but if we dealt him we would have a hole.

Not based on how they used him last year. Just seems like such a waste of a player with talent. Less than two targets per game.

I guess I was just shocked NO gave away Grubbs for a 5th rounder for salary cap relief.

"Everybody is on the tradeblock in New Orleans".

 

[Tau837]

I would love to see the Chargers go after Stills. But I seriously doubt he is truly available. He is young (22), good, and cheap ($633K cap hit in 2015). I suppose one could say the same thing about Green, but I suspect the Saints are content to stick with Watson and Hill at TE.

 

[Tau837]

I think Green will get his chance whenever Gates finally tails off. He has just been blocked. And, let's face it, McCoy is not really a coach who experiments much with personnel, so it isn't surprising he hasn't found creative ways to get Green more opportunities.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

I bet Green goes somewhere else in FA before Gates falls off enough to be replaced.

 

[BoltBacker]

I would love to see the Chargers go after Stills. But I seriously doubt he is truly available. He is young (22), good, and cheap ($633K cap hit in 2015). I suppose one could say the same thing about Green, but I suspect the Saints are content to stick with Watson and Hill at TE.

Really?

I think Cooks/Colston/Toon are more OK at WR than Watson or Hill is at TE. Those are both journeymen in my opinion. Replacing Graham with Green also would have meant much better run blocking which they are claiming(AGAIN) is going to be more important as they lean on the running game more. Doesn't matter now as they chose to accept that Ellerbe contract. For all the heat that Chip Kelly is receiving I can't believe these moves by the Saints. They seem to be using a blindfold and a dart board with these decisions. They are collecting picks, which makes sense for a team in salary cap hell, but the deepest position in the draft is RB and they continue to sign RB's. Trade away cheap starter in Stills. Makes no sense to me.

 

[BoltBacker]

Detroit gets Ngata for a 4th and 5th rounder. His contract is pretty steep - still should the Chargers have made a play for him? I'm thinking not, but he's been a really good NT in the 3/4. Could have got the Chargers through a couple of years while they look for a long term answer.

That doesn't bother me nearly as much as letting Knighton go to WAS for 1yr/$4mil. Jeebus, could have filled both NT and SS for less than $8mil against the cap in 2015 with Knighton/Searcy. Certainly would have given you a lot more options in the draft.

... and Fairley for 1yr/$5mil could have been an upgrade at DE. These are guys with no risk in a one year deal.

 

[BoltBacker]

Surprised you only list the center position for the OL. IMO they need to sign a center but also need to sign a second OL, ideally an OT like Bulaga, but if not then a G like Iupati. On Iupati, it's worth noting that he had negative ratings the past 2 seasons for pass blocking, though he had positive ratings for run blocking.

Looks like I was very long on Bulaga being expensive. GB got a big home count discount on that guy. How on earth do you let a guy like that slip out of the market if you are Jacksonville or TB with all that cap room?

 

[B Maverick]

Would you want SD to sign Mike Wallace if Miami cuts him? Obviously not at the 12 mill he would make in Mia but what would you be happy with to sign him?

29 to start the season, still has deep speed which isnt Allen's game. Rivers can get him the ball.

 

[BoltBacker]

Would you want SD to sign Mike Wallace if Miami cuts him? Obviously not at the 12 mill he would make in Mia but what would you be happy with to sign him?

29 to start the season, still has deep speed which isnt Allen's game. Rivers can get him the ball.

My opinion will likely be in the minority but I don't think he's that great a fit. A lot of people want a speedster across from Allen but imo Rivers likes bigger targets and the McCoy offense fits quick players. Plus, I just thought Wallace didn't fight for the ball all that well in MIA when on the field, and off the field is kind of a cancer no? Seems to me he has the type of character he's just going to chase the biggest paycheck anyway and there are plenty of teams with more $ left than SD. Oak, Jax, NY, etc make more sense to me.

I usually think the "team cancer" thing is overblown but I would have much rather had the Cromartie team cancer on the roster than the Wallace team cancer over the past several years. If I was going to take a chance on a less than stellar reputation I think they should have signed Percy Harvin to the one year deal BUF gave him. Again, no long term risk and he would fit the offense much better than Wallace imo.

 

[BoltBacker]

I think Stevie Johnson might be a good fit, but not for the 3yr/$15mil with $10mil guaranteed that CHI gave Royal. How does Royal keep getting these contracts!?

 

[Beerguzzler]

@UTgehlken: Chargers add DB Jimmy Wilson to two-year deal, team announces. Started last year at corner, safety for Miami. San Diego native.

Any Fish fans have the scoop on this guy.

 

[cstu]

@UTgehlken: Chargers add DB Jimmy Wilson to two-year deal, team announces. Started last year at corner, safety for Miami. San Diego native.

Any Fish fans have the scoop on this guy.

Good replacement for Gilchrist.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Michael Crabtree would be a great fit.

 

[Tau837]

Michael Crabtree would be a great fit.

I disagree. He is slow and doesn't get separation. For his likely price, he isn't worth it IMO.

 

[BoltBacker]

I strongly agree with Gunz here. He doesn't create the seperation of a Wallace, or Patterson, or T.Smith but he makes up for it in other ways. One of the reasons you are paying Rivers $17mil is because he doesn't need big windows to throw into. He's a pretty accurate guy.

But I wouldn't break the bank for him either. Now that Wallace is in MIN if you could get Jennings or Patterson cheap I would be happy with either of those guys. Seems like the MIN coaches had less than glowing reviews so one or both could be on the way out.

 

[Tau837]

I strongly agree with Gunz here. He doesn't create the seperation of a Wallace, or Patterson, or T.Smith but he makes up for it in other ways. One of the reasons you are paying Rivers $17mil is because he doesn't need big windows to throw into. He's a pretty accurate guy.

But I wouldn't break the bank for him either. Now that Wallace is in MIN if you could get Jennings or Patterson cheap I would be happy with either of those guys. Seems like the MIN coaches had less than glowing reviews so one or both could be on the way out.

Per PFF:

- In 2014, Crabtree was WR #95, with a -7.3 rating (among qualifiers who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps)

- In 2013, Crabtree was WR #140, with a -1.7 rating (among all WRs who played a snap, since he played less than 25% of his team's snaps)

He had positive grades in 2011 and 2012, but he hasn't been the same since the injury. I'm not certain he would even beat out Floyd for the #2 spot on the Chargers. No thanks.

Given your take, how about explaining the bolded. How does he make up for not getting separation? I'm not worried about Rivers' ability to throw into tight windows, but that doesn't mean team management should sign a WR who forces that. They should be looking for a WR who creates bigger windows to help Rivers out.

For example, Allen is slow but he actually creates some separation through route running to a greater degree than Crabtree.

 

[BoltBacker]

I think he runs good routes and i like how he tracks and fights for the ball.

Maybe I just bristle when I hear the "no seperation" comment because that's what people said about Boldin on his way out of AZ.... and they were right. He doesn't get seperation he just gets production.

IMO his floor with Rivers would be the high end of what Eddie Royal produced and from what I have read there has been little interest on the open market so I would expect him to maybe be cheaper. He has been stuck in WR hell in SF for his whole career and may even accept less $ to sign to play in a pass centric offense with Rivers.

Btw, I would be perfectly happy with Floyds production if he were 27 and had no injury history, but I still think Crabtree would beat him out as a starter.

 

[Tau837]

I think he runs good routes and i like how he tracks and fights for the ball.

Maybe I just bristle when I hear the "no seperation" comment because that's what people said about Boldin on his way out of AZ.... and they were right. He doesn't get seperation he just gets production.

IMO his floor with Rivers would be the high end of what Eddie Royal produced and from what I have read there has been little interest on the open market so I would expect him to maybe be cheaper. He has been stuck in WR hell in SF for his whole career and may even accept less $ to sign to play in a pass centric offense with Rivers.

Btw, I would be perfectly happy with Floyds production if he were 27 and had no injury history, but I still think Crabtree would beat him out as a starter.

Well, since you mentioned Boldin, note that PFF ranked Boldin #6 in 2013 and #18 in 2014. Given he and Crabtree were playing in the same offense with the same QB, what does that say about Crabtree's terrible ratings?

ETA: why do you think there has been little interest on the open market if you think he is good enough to sign?

 

[BoltBacker]

I'd be all for signing Boldin if he were availabe, seperation or no seperation.

There are so many things I don't understand in FA. How does Knighton come away with a 1yr/$4mil deal while Royal signs a 3yr/$15mil/$10mil deal. Plenty of stuff going on is a mystery to me.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I strongly agree with Gunz here. He doesn't create the seperation of a Wallace, or Patterson, or T.Smith but he makes up for it in other ways. One of the reasons you are paying Rivers $17mil is because he doesn't need big windows to throw into. He's a pretty accurate guy.

But I wouldn't break the bank for him either. Now that Wallace is in MIN if you could get Jennings or Patterson cheap I would be happy with either of those guys. Seems like the MIN coaches had less than glowing reviews so one or both could be on the way out.

Per PFF:

- In 2014, Crabtree was WR #95, with a -7.3 rating (among qualifiers who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps)

- In 2013, Crabtree was WR #140, with a -1.7 rating (among all WRs who played a snap, since he played less than 25% of his team's snaps)

He had positive grades in 2011 and 2012, but he hasn't been the same since the injury. I'm not certain he would even beat out Floyd for the #2 spot on the Chargers. No thanks.

Given your take, how about explaining the bolded. How does he make up for not getting separation? I'm not worried about Rivers' ability to throw into tight windows, but that doesn't mean team management should sign a WR who forces that. They should be looking for a WR who creates bigger windows to help Rivers out.

For example, Allen is slow but he actually creates some separation through route running to a greater degree than Crabtree.

He's a great buy low, IMO. Talent is unquestioned. Couple years removed from the torn achilles so he should be fully recovered. I watched a lot of SF football last year - Jerry Rice would have struggled in that train wreck.Rivers seems like the perfect QB for Crabtree's talents. Rivers gives his WRs the opportunity to make plays, and Crabtree has shown the ability to go get the ball when defenders are draped all over him.

 

[Tau837]

I strongly agree with Gunz here. He doesn't create the seperation of a Wallace, or Patterson, or T.Smith but he makes up for it in other ways. One of the reasons you are paying Rivers $17mil is because he doesn't need big windows to throw into. He's a pretty accurate guy.

But I wouldn't break the bank for him either. Now that Wallace is in MIN if you could get Jennings or Patterson cheap I would be happy with either of those guys. Seems like the MIN coaches had less than glowing reviews so one or both could be on the way out.

Per PFF:

- In 2014, Crabtree was WR #95, with a -7.3 rating (among qualifiers who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps)

- In 2013, Crabtree was WR #140, with a -1.7 rating (among all WRs who played a snap, since he played less than 25% of his team's snaps)

He had positive grades in 2011 and 2012, but he hasn't been the same since the injury. I'm not certain he would even beat out Floyd for the #2 spot on the Chargers. No thanks.

Given your take, how about explaining the bolded. How does he make up for not getting separation? I'm not worried about Rivers' ability to throw into tight windows, but that doesn't mean team management should sign a WR who forces that. They should be looking for a WR who creates bigger windows to help Rivers out.

For example, Allen is slow but he actually creates some separation through route running to a greater degree than Crabtree.

He's a great buy low, IMO. Talent is unquestioned. Couple years removed from the torn achilles so he should be fully recovered. I watched a lot of SF football last year - Jerry Rice would have struggled in that train wreck.Rivers seems like the perfect QB for Crabtree's talents. Rivers gives his WRs the opportunity to make plays, and Crabtree has shown the ability to go get the ball when defenders are draped all over him.

Disagree. Boldin didn't suffer in the SF "train wreck". And he is quite a bit older than Crabtree.

 

[BoltBacker]

I'm not going to say Boldin is a bad player, I'm the one who brought him up as an example that "doesn't get seperation" isn't always the end all to being a talented receiver. I thought that was your original point of contention.

Boldin last year had 66yrd/game, and a TD every 3.2 games

Crabtree last year had 44yrd/game and a TD every 4 games

I don't think either had a great year(nor Stevie Johnson, nor Vernon Davis). All I can tell you is only JAX and the NYJ had fewer passing yards last season so that sounds like a trainwreck to me from the standpoint of a receiver. If PFF has some formula that says Boldin was a great player and Crabtree was a bad player based on those #'s..... <shrug> ok. Like 'Gunz said, Crabtree will be another year removed from a major injury so I still say he would do no worse than what Royal produced if Crabtree was in the SD offense. We can disagree.

 

[Tau837]

I'm not going to say Boldin is a bad player, I'm the one who brought him up as an example that "doesn't get seperation" isn't always the end all to being a talented receiver. I thought that was your original point of contention.

Boldin last year had 66yrd/game, and a TD every 3.2 games

Crabtree last year had 44yrd/game and a TD every 4 games

I don't think either had a great year(nor Stevie Johnson, nor Vernon Davis). All I can tell you is only JAX and the NYJ had fewer passing yards last season so that sounds like a trainwreck to me from the standpoint of a receiver. If PFF has some formula that says Boldin was a great player and Crabtree was a bad player based on those #'s..... <shrug> ok. Like 'Gunz said, Crabtree will be another year removed from a major injury so I still say he would do no worse than what Royal produced if Crabtree was in the SD offense. We can disagree.

Fine, we can disagree. But FWIW, PFF grades every player on every play to reach their grades; their grades don't necessarily correlate to standard statistics. The fact that they gave Boldin a top 20 grade and Crabtree a terrible grade is meaningful IMO.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I'm not going to say Boldin is a bad player, I'm the one who brought him up as an example that "doesn't get seperation" isn't always the end all to being a talented receiver. I thought that was your original point of contention.

Boldin last year had 66yrd/game, and a TD every 3.2 games

Crabtree last year had 44yrd/game and a TD every 4 games

I don't think either had a great year(nor Stevie Johnson, nor Vernon Davis). All I can tell you is only JAX and the NYJ had fewer passing yards last season so that sounds like a trainwreck to me from the standpoint of a receiver. If PFF has some formula that says Boldin was a great player and Crabtree was a bad player based on those #'s..... <shrug> ok. Like 'Gunz said, Crabtree will be another year removed from a major injury so I still say he would do no worse than what Royal produced if Crabtree was in the SD offense. We can disagree.

Fine, we can disagree. But FWIW, PFF grades every player on every play to reach their grades; their grades don't necessarily correlate to standard statistics. The fact that they gave Boldin a top 20 grade and Crabtree a terrible grade is meaningful IMO.

Advanced statistics and grading are meaningful and certainly something that I hope Telseco and Co note when deciding whether to make an offer and how much.

I just don't think the process is to look at PFF, see a low grade, and move on.

In addition to Crabtree's skill set, I like the fact that he's experienced and should be able to step in day 1 and start. If we are going to win now, we're going to need to roll the dice on a couple of guys and hope for a big rebound.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Fun discussion but likely meaningless; I think Stevie Johnson is more likely though him departing yesterday with signing is nerve racking

 

[tommyGunZ]

Greg Hardy rumors out there as well. Would be an incredible add - Hardy, Liuget, and Ingram would be a formidable front.