MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
only problem with these types of comments is that you could say "if Jordan hadn't won those 6 rings, people wouldn't discuss him as the greatest ever" ---- see, he DID
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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (3 Viewers)
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The lack of truly great LeBron hot takes after this game have been a bit disappointing. Was hoping for more nonsense about him passing or otherwise deferring down the stretch.
All the "this is why the Warriors signed Durant" takes have kind of made up for it, though. Was anyone previously confused about why the Warriors signed Durant?
All the "this is why the Warriors signed Durant" takes have kind of made up for it, though. Was anyone previously confused about why the Warriors signed Durant?
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
The difference is I am talking about one shot, and people making an overreaction and applying a label. You're taking away 6 entire post season runs. While I get your point, your comparison is a little silly.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I'm a hater, but let's be clear, LeBron the player is awesome. Irving is awesome. Love has days where he is extremely good. The rest of the team is average.
You know who is the problem. Coach Lebron. This team basically runs Iso ball and kicks it to shooters that spend most of the game playing completely off Lebron and Irving. So when Korver finally gets a shot, it's the first one he's taken in 5 minutes. When Smith gets it there's about 2 seconds on the shot clock.
Lebron suffers from not having had a college coach even for 1 year. Someone that made him play within their system and made him understand the importance of ball movement. Not passing. Lebron can pass with the best of them. But that's different than ball movement , which isn't anywhere to be found. Irving is at fault too, but since he's really the SG and Lebron the PG I put it on Lebron more.
If Pop coaches the Cavs,... 1) no way they play at this pace, 2) no way they don't utilize the mismatches better, and 3) no way the role players get the ball in poor situations. That being said, also no way they beat GSW anyway.
You know who is the problem. Coach Lebron. This team basically runs Iso ball and kicks it to shooters that spend most of the game playing completely off Lebron and Irving. So when Korver finally gets a shot, it's the first one he's taken in 5 minutes. When Smith gets it there's about 2 seconds on the shot clock.
Lebron suffers from not having had a college coach even for 1 year. Someone that made him play within their system and made him understand the importance of ball movement. Not passing. Lebron can pass with the best of them. But that's different than ball movement , which isn't anywhere to be found. Irving is at fault too, but since he's really the SG and Lebron the PG I put it on Lebron more.
If Pop coaches the Cavs,... 1) no way they play at this pace, 2) no way they don't utilize the mismatches better, and 3) no way the role players get the ball in poor situations. That being said, also no way they beat GSW anyway.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
That's a personal, not a 'Boston' position. There might be some feeling left from his first go-round in Cle, but the Celts fared pretty well there and now there's just a grudging admiration of the guy who's between them and any finals, which Bostonians consider the natural state of Celticity.Nice.
So it's the rivalry with Lebron himself that overrides anything else. I get that. I hate Nick Saban like that.
Started sports-hating the King when his self-image started to free run. It's become almost Shakespearean the lack of joy his unprecedented level of talent generates.
MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
yeah, I was trying to be. I agree with what you're saying, in general, it just falls flat, since it implies he might have gotten lucky. Dude is on fire.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Love had a highly admirable game last nite. He took it upon himself to attempt the job TThompson's not doing, something few stars will do. I was surprised and delighted to see it. That they didn't reward his efforts with some plays run for him was wrong.
Dedfin
Footballguy
Would you say the The Decision didn't necessarily start the hate, but crystallized it?
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
And therein lies the lack of coaching (or of Lebron/Irving understanding ball movement). It's basic coaching stuff.
- They should be getting switches to get Love the ball down low against someone other than Durant.
- They should be running Korver off picks to get him more involved early. He just stands in corner and waits. Or sets picks for Lebron and is easily covered.
- They should be getting Irving the ball after some other picks, so he can run his Iso quicker rather than having to size up the defender.
- They should be posting Lebron a ton more. Exactly who on GSW has the strength to stop him. Green occassionally. But overall that's a winning matchup.
And as for Lebron not understanding his apparent GM role either...
- They should have a better backup PG than Williams, who totally sucks now. They miss Dellavedova and needed a better replacement so Irving and Lebron could rest more.
- They need a threat on a pick and roll. Thompson is awful at it. Amazingly they miss Mozgov. He would eat up Padula. They knew this, and that's why they snagged Bogut. That injury hurt them in this series.
Even with all that, they are probably still short of beating GSW.
need2know
Footballguy
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
After he leaves for SA next offseason, he will learn to deal with a real coach. Pop will probably bench him 10 times a game.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Yeah, the special had something to do with it, but it probably had more to do with how spoiled i am with my sports heroes. When you grow up with Mays, Brown, Russell & Ali as your idols, an expectation follows. One was with baseball like Stevie Wonder with music, the others saw how they could lift society with their position in it and did that above & beyond the call. Kinda forgave Jordan his selfishness later on because the money was new and so unprecedented and he got & gave joy with his gift ("We Like Mike" - there shonuff ain't no "Love on LeBron" campaign). That the King gets more miserable with every milestone is tragic and his leadership-into-selfishness has an almost Oprah-level negative impact on the way society is trending.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
I miss benching more than any other aspect of the olskool game
ETA: If Brad Stevens wants Gordon Hayward, naked Mormon triplets or Danny Ainge to smoke an exploding cigar at each practice, Danny better do it. There was noise during the Bos/Cle series that the King was doing some mad respecting on the Celts coach and Brad may be the one way the Cavs can get on equal footing with the DubMob
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The fact that Mike Brown of all people was able to coach the team just as well throws a wrench in things.
LAUNCH
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Here's my observations from the game last night:
- Kyrie and LeBron seem to be unstoppable off the dribble. Not sure why they don't commit to that as more of their offense until it stops working. Just let them take turns, mix it up with pick and roll, whatever...but they HAVE to keep attacking. They stopped attacking and it cost them the game.
- The Warriors 3-pt shooting is just stupid. They must spend half of every practice just shooting 3's. I never even dreamed a team could shoot like that so consistently.
- If the Cavs finished that game off, we would have a legit series and I'd give them a great chance to win Friday. As is, they may get swept. It all depends on LeBron's mentality.
- Tristan Thompson is absolutely killing the Cavs in multiple ways. He is a complete non-factor. I can think of only one good play he has made in 3 games. Unacceptable, especially considering the commitment they made to him financially. He is there to get 10+ rebounds every game and somewhat defend the paint. He's doing none of that.
- Love has been fine and Kyrie was really great last night until that last possession where he settled for the 3. Their next best player? Kyle Korver. He is a step slow, but at least hustles and knows his role on offense and can give them something consistent. If he had hit that corner 3 to ice the game, he'd be the hero of the game and the answers to all of Cleveland's prayers. I really wish it had gone in so we could be talking about what a great series this is.
Scoresman
Footballguy
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
That is all negated by the fact with how terribly Mark Jackson coached this team and the instant juggernaut it became when Kerr took over the very next season.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
Mark Jackson's main problem was that the offense was so stagnant. But look at how their defense continued to improve while he coached. Steve Kerr specifically gave credit to Jackson the other day for instilling a great defensive mindset before he took over.
Terrible is way too harsh of a word to describe Jackson imo
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Fair enough. Mark Jackson was great as a leader of men (confidence and effort), but he is terrible as a coach (dude didn't even carry a clipboard).
I remember that season it was so frustrating to see a team with such high basketball IQ, playmaking from the frontcourt (Bogut, Lee, and Iggy were top passers at their position), and dead eye 3 point shooters struggle on offense with ISO ball. They should have been whipping the ball all over the place...instead they finished last in passes. It was easy to see that group could be championship contenders since the defense was there when he left (#4 def rtg - adding Bogut [27th to 12th] and then Iggy [12th to 4th] was a huge factor in the defense improving, that's why I don't give Mark Jackson too much credit for the D) and the offense had the potential with all the weapons being misused. While the rest of the world was surprised Mark Jackson got fired...my friends and I were over joyed that the 90s style offense was possibly gone.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
Too early to tell, as a player he was just a role player, but a damn good one. I think his health issues might end forcing him out or coaching and we will never know how great he could be. Hindsight is always 20/20, but if the Warriors knew Kerr was going to have health problems I wonder if they would have paid Walton more to stay knowing he would be the coach sooner rather than later.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I agree with this, and would like to add that Jackson would be the perfect example of a coach in the NFL that isn't that good as a head coach, but is a great defensive coordinator.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Wasn't about the money for Walton. It was the chance to rebuild the Lakers. The real question is: does Walton take the job knowing Kerr might be out of coaching sooner rather than later?
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
It's the opposite. He's a decent head coach who needs great coordinators. You guys are giving Mark Jackson too much credit. Dubs added Bogut and Iggy during his tenure...2 elite defensive talents. Also, it was reported that defensive scheme was formed by Mike Malone and Erman.
Mark Jackson was great as a motivator/leader, but he offers almost nothing tactically.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
It is up there. 1995-96 Bulls, and on a more personal level the 88-89 Pistons. I remember thinking after the Pistons lost in game 7 to the Lakers that there was no way the Pistons wouldn't win it the next year. They won 63 games that year, 6 better than anyone else and then 15 - 2 in the playoffs.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
That is the question, I am not sure. I think he would have stayed though. A young coach with a chance to have that roster, if it was me I would be thinking this is a great start for me to chase down the 11 rings Phil won.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I think they would have loved to keep attacked, but they ran out of gas. Trying to cover all the Warriors players and getting back on breaks requires energy that the Cavs top players just didn't have. It's easy to point to what they should have done, but I am not sure if they realistically could have kept up the go, go, go some more attacking style of basketball.
Curry got 9 minutes of rest. KD got 7 minutes. LeBron only sat for 2 minutes and Kyrie for 4. For GS, Green sat 15 minutes and Klay sat 7 minutes.
That's pretty much been one of the main themes in the series. The Golden State bench has played a lot better than the Cleveland bench, allowing the GS stars to get some much needed rest and stay fresher for the push in the 4th quarter.
I don't dispute that Kerr was able to instantly push some buttons that Jackson had completely missed, and as a result transformed this team. He deserves a ton of credit. But, I am not positive a replacement level coach doesn't do almost as well with this squad over most of the last two years (and especially post-Durant). I'm not sold that Walton is the next Red Auerbach, and Brown is clearly not a great coach, and they both got phenomenal results. For comparison's sake, if Phil Jackson missed a lot of time and his Bulls teams don't miss a beat, do we think about his legacy differently? I don't know that we do, but I think it's an interesting question.
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Even if for some crazy reason he does leave the Cavs, he won't end up with the Warriors. The other teams are very interesting though.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
No.
The pleasure of watching some of the greatest stars in the game play no-startrip ball against a championship-caliber team continues to entertain me and make the watching worthwhile.
And the continued development of the game toward matchups and movement makes some of the basketball i watched this season more pleasurable than any in this century (b-ball was my favorite sport from the early 60s, but i had pretty much stopped watching by the turn of the last decade). The anticipation of other teams buying the new concepts and wondering how bigs are going to end up figuring in all this makes me look forward to next season even if the final outcome is a forgone conclusion.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
You are correct the players pretty much coach themselves in game. The major impact a coach has during games is calling inbound plays and plays in end of clock especially when the game is close (rotations are usually set, especially with a team as good as this). Otherwise, even if Kerr wasn't on the bench come game day.....he was still involved between games and behind the scenes with game planning and addressing the team. The Dubs are a team playing to Kerr's vision, so he still gets all the credit IMO.
If Kerr has to retire and the Warriors rehire Keith Smart in July, how do you think that changes their odds to win the 2017-18 title?
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Doesn't change anything, but at that point you can't take away the impact Kerr has had on the players and the system they run. Kerr more than provide his coaching chops during the first title season. Not many thought the Dubs were legit title contenders. Now he or anyone else is just reaping the rewards from that first season. Only a fool would deviate from the current offensive philosophy and system. The talent advantage the Dubs have is huge, but Kerr's imprints are all over this thing since he took over.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
How would this team look if SVG hadn't wanted full control and took this job? Wonder if he sits here in Detroit watches the finals and thinks " Damn, I ####ed up"
Jayrod
Footballguy
I've spent time trying to figure out a system that would work in today's game that focuses more on post play. I would think some player that is big enough to handle the undersized guys, with skills enough to get around/over the shot blockers could give small-ball teams fits and still be a go-to guy in big moments. Obviously, being a good FT shooter is key as well as having a competent perimeter game to feed him the ball and punish double teams.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I fell asleep at halftime. My phone was dead in the morning and I asked my wife to tell me who won. She checks her phone and says "looks like the yellow team, Lebron?"
Angered that I missed a shocker, I pulled open my phone and saw what I expected.
While I agree about anti-climatic, it is fun watching this Warriors team, they're just so good. Maybe the Cavs can add Paul George, and while that would make everything outside of the finals even less entertaining, you're really only going from a .02 level to a .01 level of regular/playoff entertainment.
Angered that I missed a shocker, I pulled open my phone and saw what I expected.
While I agree about anti-climatic, it is fun watching this Warriors team, they're just so good. Maybe the Cavs can add Paul George, and while that would make everything outside of the finals even less entertaining, you're really only going from a .02 level to a .01 level of regular/playoff entertainment.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Also, I think they need to make the 3 a little further back.
rodg12
Footballguy
Just not sure it's physically possible to do this. They have to defend elite players on the other end and play MAJOR minutes for them to have a chance. I think Love needs to take on more of a scoring role at times, but not sure he can in the way they use him.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
or just get rid of it - why should a shot from further out be worth more anyway.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I think in the next couple years when LeBron slows down a little that you will see him develop a post game. As soon as he starts dominating with it, then you will see others start to follow. Kind of the same way Jordan did with his post ups and fade away jumpers.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
well, if you've figured it out, you should start sending out your playbook to nba teams - only 3 of the teams with a top10 big made the playoffs.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
This is too quick of a reaction. It isn't like everyone is out there doing what the Warriors are doing. Teams are trying, but for the most part there is only a handful of teams that have good enough 3 point shooters to make it work.
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