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2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (5 Viewers)

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msudaisy26 said:
That isn't why Kyrie left. He was involved a ton. The reason the stand around with little movement is because they are trying to slow the game down, they can't run with the Warriors and stay in the game. 
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Not being able to run with the Warriors does not mean you can't run a half court offense with movement.

 
Capella said:
Imagine thinking Dwayne Wade is still good. 
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James thought he was when he pushed for the Cavs to sign him.

James also said of the move: "I still know what he's capable of doing. Why wouldn't you want another guy in the locker room that brings a championship mentality and a guy who can still play?"

Wade said he understood why some Cavs players were hesitant about the signing, but was encouraged when LeBron James wanted him.

"Bron wanted me to come here said Wade, I talked to Ty Lue, he didn't say he didn't want me here, so I decided to come," Wade said. "I know if it was anything bad then 'Bron wouldn't have asked me to be here or put me in this situation where I just wasn't totally wanted. But I understand the difference, what they were coming off of and me coming in."

 
msudaisy26 said:
Okay? You really want to argue their plan of attack that got them to the finals and then gave them 3 chances to win the game?
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Not what I said.  You said they have four guys standing around because they are slowing the game down since they can't run with GSW.  I am saying ISO ball isn't the only way to slow the game down.

Talking about Clevelands optimal strategy to win the series is a different conversation.

 
Da Guru said:
James thought he was when he pushed for the Cavs to sign him.

James also said of the move: "I still know what he's capable of doing. Why wouldn't you want another guy in the locker room that brings a championship mentality and a guy who can still play?"

Wade said he understood why some Cavs players were hesitant about the signing, but was encouraged when LeBron James wanted him.

"Bron wanted me to come here said Wade, I talked to Ty Lue, he didn't say he didn't want me here, so I decided to come," Wade said. "I know if it was anything bad then 'Bron wouldn't have asked me to be here or put me in this situation where I just wasn't totally wanted. But I understand the difference, what they were coming off of and me coming in."
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ok. And then he got traded when everybody realized he wasn’t good. 

 
James is ball dominant. Correct.

He also is at his best when he is creating wide open shots for his teammates. Which he does all the time.

The best roster for LeBron is shooters and a PNR guy TT/Capella etc.

The biggest thing I see missing is somebody to take the load off of him when he needs a rest or something. There is nobody else on that roster that can get their own shot sans Clarkson according to Clarkson.

Magic will treat him right in 2018-19

 
Bull Dozier said:
Not what I said.  You said they have four guys standing around because they are slowing the game down since they can't run with GSW.  I am saying ISO ball isn't the only way to slow the game down.

Talking about Clevelands optimal strategy to win the series is a different conversation.
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I have no idea where you are going with this.

Guru said look how little movement they had, I said they do that on purpose to slow the game down because they get into a shootout. 

Then you come in and say that isn't the only way to slow the game down. Sure it isn't, but that is the way they choose and it has worked pretty damn well for them so far. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
Th LeBron never has help narrative is getting old. He played with Ray Allen (HOFer), D-Wade (100% chance of being a HOFer according to Basketball Reference), and Chris Bosh (99.5% to make the HOF) in MIA. With CLE, Love has a 676.% to make the HOF and Kyrie 36.4% so far.

When the season started, the Cavs had a former MVP in D-Rose, Wade, IT (2nd team All NBA last year), and Corver (an all star a few years ago). It's not like the Cavs had nobody. Not sure why they made all the trades they did to get rid of players with more experience or had done something in the playoffs. LeBron contributed to the roster as much as anyone else.
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The narrative is merely a response to a narrative that's even older- that counting rings is a good way to evaluate an individual player's greatness.  It's fine if you're just talking legacies, but nobody frames the discussion that way. 

So if someone wants to argue that LeBron "only" having three titles is somehow a negative, evaluating the context of the seasons when he didn't win a title (his teammates, his competition, when and how his team bowed out) is a completely reasonable response. In fact it's the only possible response, other than the obvious one of pointing out that counting rings to evaluate an individual player in a team sport is just fundamentally stupid.

 
Da Guru said:
Did not say that. James is a great player but James is so ball dominant that it is difficult for others to stay involved. Basically why Irving left.

Last night watch how little movement the Cavs had in the offensive zone.

James could score 60 or 70 and the Cavs would still have a good chance of losing.
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you realize he has been to 8 straight finals this way, right?

and that the Cavaliers beat Golden State in the finals 2 years ago playing this way.. and had this game in hand until a bonehead play by JR Smith.

right?

 
Anarchy99 said:
Everyone will see things differently. When I saw it, it looked to me to be a block for multiple reasons. LeBron was 1) still moving and neither of his feet were set. 2) moving forward TOWARD KD, 3) not square to the player moving to the basket (not perpendicular), 4) leaning his shoulder into KD to initiate contact (with both of LeBron's feet moving).
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1. You can take a charge while still moving. This has already been discussed.

2. Lebron appears to be moving slowly and bracing for contanct in the direction he was previously moving quickly, not towards KD, but the rule also disallows movement obliquely towards the offensive player. On this, the definition of legal guarding position, and whether Lebron beat KD going up to shoot, rests the correct call. 

3. No need to be square or stationary anymore old timer.

4. Was he initiating contact (illegal) or bracing for it (legal)? Did he change directions? Was he there before KD began going up? It is a very close call and obviously can be argued either way. The nba says the reversal was correct because James did not establish a legal guarding position. I thought they got it wrong. Today I've read the official rules, read interpretations of them, watched it repeatedly on a loop, unsuccessfully tried to nail down the current nba definition of legal guarding position (which isn't carefully explained in the official rules afaict), and honestly I don't know. It was that close. 

The best gripe is that it shouldn't have been reviewed as Bron clearly had both feet a foot outside the line and it was such a close call. :shrug:

 
mr. furley said:
you realize he has been to 8 straight finals this way, right?

and that the Cavaliers beat Golden State in the finals 2 years ago playing this way.. and had this game in hand until a bonehead play by JR Smith.

right?
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:mellow:  Teams who play better team ball win championships.  

 
tjnc09 said:
:mellow:  Teams who play better team ball win championships.  
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Maybe overall, but the poster was talking about ball movement on offense only and I don't see much correlation this year between passes per game and playoff success.

In any event, rules like this one are superseded these days by the rule that having way more talent than all the other teams wins championships. It's a pretty solid rule!

 
TobiasFunke said:
Maybe overall, but the poster was talking about ball movement on offense only and I don't see much correlation this year between passes per game and playoff success.

In any event, rules like this one are superseded these days by the rule that having way more talent than all the other teams wins championships. It's a pretty solid rule!
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Number of passes doesn't mean anything.  

 
tjnc09 said:
Number of passes doesn't mean anything.  
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Yes, that's what I said. One poster complained about a lack of ball movement by the Cavs on offense, and another poster pointed out that they've been fairly successful running their offense slowly and with James dominating the ball. You interjected, and I pointed out that the stats support his claim that if you are talking about ball movement on offense only there's not much correlation with playoff success. Not sure exactly what we're arguing about here :shrug:

 
msudaisy26 said:
:no:  Mo, you are better than this. The NBA HoF isn't that difficult. Ray Allen was already in before playing with LBJ, so was Wade. Bosh was likely, but we can call that 5050, the jury is still out on Kyrie and Love, but I lean towards no on Love because he seems to be breaking down fast.
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ehh, busy day at work, was lazy with actually thinking about it. Bosh is the one that I would question, but different NBA back then.

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
The way the Warriors act after making baskets (shimming, chest pounding) makes we want any team to beat them.   Not a CAVS fan but was rooting for them last night.   I think at this point I would root for the 1972 Russian Olympic Basketball Team over the Warriors. 
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Le Braun is on the Warriors?

 
TobiasFunke said:
The narrative is merely a response to a narrative that's even older- that counting rings is a good way to evaluate an individual player's greatness.  It's fine if you're just talking legacies, but nobody frames the discussion that way. 

So if someone wants to argue that LeBron "only" having three titles is somehow a negative, evaluating the context of the seasons when he didn't win a title (his teammates, his competition, when and how his team bowed out) is a completely reasonable response. In fact it's the only possible response, other than the obvious one of pointing out that counting rings to evaluate an individual player in a team sport is just fundamentally stupid.
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IMO, a lot of people using LeBron's Finals record against him is based on an assumption about MJ.  That if he hadn't left to "pursue his baseball dream," he would have gone to and WON 8 straight championships.  He book-ended those two years with the two 3-peats, so it is probably assumed that is what would have happened, therefore MJ is clearly the greater player.

The counter argument that LeBron never had a Pippen/Grant or Pippen/Rodman combo to play with is more valid, IMO.

All that said, I still think MJ is the GOAT, but LBJ is clearly #2 at this point, just 'cause.

 
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bananafish said:
Luckily for KD lost in all this is the horrible game he had, both offensively and effort-wise (and going back to the last two games of the Rockets series) . I don't know what the heck is going on with him but it's going to bite them in the ### sooner or later.
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It might not have been great overall, but he bailed the warriors out repeatedly with his iso scoring in the middle of the lane multiple times. Their offense looked very mediocre all game IMO. 

 
Capella said:
Imagine thinking Dwayne Wade is still good. 
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The Cavs didn't want Thomas, Crowder, Wade, and Rose. No one said they were good players at this point. IT came back and was becoming a problem. Wade and Rose were nowhere near what they were in their primes. Crowder wasn't the same as when he was in BOS. These guys weren't great and Cleveland cleaned house.

But the guys they got back have been as bad or worse in the playoffs. Nance, Clarkson, and Hood have averaged less than 5 ppg in the post-season. Clarkson has shot 23% from deep and 30% overall. Hood has only made 15% of his threes.  Hill has only made 28% of his.

Playing limited minutes in the playoffs, Hood is -79, Clarkson is -34, and Nance is -25. Oddly enough, the CLE player with the best +/- is Korver at +62 with Hill +57. LeBron is at +25.

Laugh all you want about D-Wade still being good. He was the only Heat player with a positive different in the playoffs (+5). MIA had 6 guys at -25 or worse in their one series. IT was +17 in the games he played with the Lakers (when most everyone else was minus). Crowder was +143 in the regular season.

If the Cavs got positive contributions in the post season from any of the guys they picked up at the deadline, they probably wouldn't have had two series go to 7 games and LeBron might have been able to get some rest each night.

So the Cavs getting little to no contribution from the guys they traded would still have been a huge upgrade over the negative impact the guys they picked up have provided.

 
msudaisy26 said:
You are just going to die on this hill aren't you? It doesn't matter what 100 m refs think especially when they would probably be split. It matters what those 2 officials thought. In real time they called it a charge and block and then went charge after a word with each other. I think it is safe to assume the charge ref convinced the other ref his view was better. After they looked at the replay they obviously said oops your view was better or I didn't see that from this angle and changed the call. 

Everyone is going to see it different and in slow motion they saw a block, be mad about the rule. The call was fine either way. 
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This post you quoted was about how stupid the rule is, not the call. Reading comprehension is important. 

 
That same reporter was laughing it up with Steph and Dray about the same question earlier.  Then he tries 4 straight times to get LeBron to throw his teammate under the bus.  LeBron handled that much better than I would've.  That reporter is a complete doosh.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Laugh all you want about D-Wade still being good. He was the only Heat player with a positive different in the playoffs (+5). MIA had 6 guys at -25 or worse in their one series. IT was +17 in the games he played with the Lakers (when most everyone else was minus). Crowder was +143 in the regular season.

If the Cavs got positive contributions in the post season from any of the guys they picked up at the deadline, they probably wouldn't have had two series go to 7 games and LeBron might have been able to get some rest each night.

So the Cavs getting little to no contribution from the guys they traded would still have been a huge upgrade over the negative impact the guys they picked up have provided.
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Hill and Nance have both had positive impact in games.

But give Clarkson's minutes last night to D-Wade and we're probably talking about a Cavs win today.

 
Jayrod said:
IMO, a lot of people using LeBron's Finals record against him is based on an assumption about MJ.  That if he hadn't left to "pursue his baseball dream," he would have gone to and WON 8 straight championships.  He book-ended those two years with the two 3-peats, so it is probably assumed that is what would have happened, therefore MJ is clearly the greater player.

The counter argument that LeBron never had a Pippen/Grant or Pippen/Rodman combo to play with is more valid, IMO.

All that said, I still think MJ is the GOAT, but LBJ is clearly #2 at this point, just 'cause.
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To be fair Jordan played a good part of that 2nd year off and the Bulls were knocked out of the playoffs by Shaq and Penny.  I know, I know rusty.

30 or so games should be enough to get rid of the rust especially when you're on a team that was pretty close to a championship the year you were out.

All that being said Jordan's Bulls never beat a team in the playoffs nearly as good as these Warriors (and the Cavs won't either).  The best team the Bulls ever beat in the playoffs is probably the Pistons past their prime and no chance they were as good as the Warriors by that point that was the last year they ever made it out of the 1st round and the 2nd to last year they ever made the playoffs.

 
Niles Standish said:
To be fair Jordan played a good part of that 2nd year off and the Bulls were knocked out of the playoffs by Shaq and Penny.  I know, I know rusty.

30 or so games should be enough to get rid of the rust especially when you're on a team that was pretty close to a championship the year you were out.

All that being said Jordan's Bulls never beat a team in the playoffs nearly as good as these Warriors (and the Cavs won't either).  The best team the Bulls ever beat in the playoffs is probably the Pistons past their prime and no chance they were as good as the Warriors by that point that was the last year they ever made it out of the 1st round and the 2nd to last year they ever made the playoffs.
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He played 17 games with no preseason. 

Edit. It is stupid to say Jordan's team never beat a team as good as Golden State. First Golden State might be the best team ever and second Jordan's were the Warriors of their time. 

 
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Alex P Keaton said:
The questions from the reporter were idiotic.  It's a good example of why Bobby Knight hated journalists.

But either way, LBJ walks out of there like a total d-bag.
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On the contrary, I think it was total badass to just calmly gather his stuff put on his shades and walk out. I feel like he might score 60 points next game. 

 
The Cavs were a ~.625-.650 team with Lebron and a ~.350 team without him in-between.

The Bulls were a ~.700+ team with Jordan and a ~.620 team without him in-between.

Jordan had to STOP trying to carry a team to the finals before he eventually got there, because he couldn't do it.  Lebron has carried multiple teams by himself.

 
bananafish said:
They shot 56% when you take out KD's 8/22 and had only 7 turnovers. That's actually quite worrisome if you're the Warriors... they played well (outside of KD IMO) and almost lost.
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For a series that seemed to make folks complain about having to see again whether from fatigue or just knowing the Warriors would curb-stomp them (I've had both of those feelings), this thing seems to be getting a whole lot more interesting. 

It's really hard to imagine the Cavs actually pulling this out, but last night certainly had to be encouraging for Cavs fans. I suspect the reality is that KD will play better and, with CLE blowing a shot last night, this thing still probably a long shot to go 6. But these Warriors don't seem quite like the Warriors, and you just can't quite put anything past LeBron right now.

Who the hell knows, and that's fun. 

 
Bull Dozier said:
Agree with all of this, except that if two refs disagree on the call on the floor, and it is a reviewable play, they should review.

This should not be a revieable play though.

I'm also probably just used to the NFL system, but if they discuss and determine the call on the floor, there was nothing in the replay suggesting a charge call should be overturned to a block.
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But 2 refs on the court did disagree AND by an NBA rule that has been in place for 5 YEARS!!! (Latest Lowe Post Podcast)....it is a reviewable play.

 
msudaisy26 said:
He played 17 games with no preseason. 

Edit. It is stupid to say Jordan's team never beat a team as good as Golden State. First Golden State might be the best team ever and second Jordan's were the Warriors of their time. 
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So it's stupid to discuss quality of competition when the argument is that Jordan had a better finals record argument over?

 
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