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2022 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread (1 Viewer)

Don Quixote

Footballguy
I don't see a thread yet.

Early Baseball Era and Golden Days Era ballots were announced last week... link

The Early Baseball Era ballot includes Bill Dahlen, John Donaldson, Bud Fowler, Vic Harris, Grant “Home Run” Johnson, Lefty O’Doul, Buck O’Neil, **** “Cannonball” Redding, Allie Reynolds and George “Tubby” Scales. All of these candidates are deceased.

The Golden Days Era ballot includes **** Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Roger Maris, Minnie Miñoso, Danny Murtaugh, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce and Maury Wills. Of this group, Kaat, Oliva and Wills are living.

The results of the Early Baseball Era Committee vote and the Golden Days Era Committee vote will be announced live on MLB Network’s “MLB Tonight” at 6 p.m. ET on Sunday, Dec. 5.

The 10 candidates for Early Baseball Era consideration for the Class of 2022:

• Bill Dahlen spent 21 seasons in the majors from 1891-1911, playing almost 90 percent of his games at shortstop, compiling a .272 batting average with 84 home runs and 1,234 RBI. He scored 100 or more runs in each of his first six seasons and recorded 120-or-more hits 15 times. He retired in 1911 as the active home run leader with 84 and as the all-time leader in games played (2,444).

• John Donaldson pitched in the Negro Leagues and pre-Negro Leagues for more than 30 years, earning a reputation as one of the best pitchers in the game. Also playing the outfield and managing, Donaldson helped establish the barnstorming business model that was profitable for Black teams for decades.

• Bud Fowler is often acknowledged as the first Black professional baseball player, having pitched and played second base for teams in more than a dozen leagues throughout his career. After spending part of his youth in Cooperstown, Fowler grew up to excel on the diamond and later helped form the successful Page Fence Giants barnstorming team.

• Vic Harris played 18 seasons in the Negro Leagues, primarily as a left fielder for the legendary Homestead Grays. He compiled a .305 career batting average and was known as one of the most aggressive base runners in the Negro National League. Harris also managed the Grays for 11 seasons, winning seven Negro National League pennants and the 1948 World Series.

• Grant “Home Run” Johnson was a shortstop and second baseman in the pre-Negro Leagues era who helped form the Page Fence Giants barnstorming team. A powerful hitter and occasional pitcher, Johnson played for early powerhouse teams like the Brooklyn Royal Giants and New York Lincoln Giants.

• Lefty O’Doul played for 11 seasons with the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Phillies and Dodgers, winning two National League batting titles. He compiled a .349 career batting average, fourth-best in AL/NL history. After his playing days, O’Doul managed in the Pacific Coast League and was credited with more than 2,000 victories. In 1932, O’Doul and other players traveled to Japan, where they instructed college students on the intricacies of the game. He returned to Japan several more times throughout the decade and then multiple times after World War II, becoming a beloved figure in the history of Japanese baseball.

• Buck O’Neil played 10 seasons with the Memphis Red Sox and Kansas City Monarchs of the Negro American League and was named to three All-Star Games. Following his playing career, O’Neil became a scout for the Chicago Cubs and later became the first Black coach in AL or NL history with Chicago. Scouting for teams for much of the rest of his career, O’Neil became a beloved ambassador for the game who helped found the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City.

• **** “Cannonball” Redding was regarded as perhaps the fastest pitcher in Negro Leagues history, hurling for teams such as the Lincoln Giants, Chicago American Giants and the Brooklyn Royal Giants. Credited with multiple no-hitters, Redding was also a successful manager with the Royal Giants.

• Allie Reynolds was 182-107 over 13 years with the Indians and Yankees, with six All-Star team selections. He led his teams to six World Series titles, going 7-2 with a 2.79 ERA. He twice finished in the Top 3 of the American League’s Most Valuable Player Award voting.

• George “Tubby” Scales played 20 seasons in the Negro Leagues as an infielder, compiling a .319 batting average and .421 on-base percentage. He also managed for six seasons in the Negro Leagues and 12 seasons in the Puerto Rican Winter League, leading the Santurce Cangrejeros to the Caribbean World Series title in 1951.

The 10 candidates for Golden Days Era consideration for the Class of 2022:

• **** Allen played 15 seasons from 1963-77 for five teams, spending nine seasons with the Phillies, compiling 351 home runs, 1,119 RBI and a .292 career average. He was named the 1972 AL Most Valuable Player and the 1964 NL Rookie of the Year, with seven career All-Star selections.

• Ken Boyer played 15 seasons as a third baseman with the Cardinals, Mets, White Sox and Dodgers, earning 11 All-Star Game selections and winning the 1964 National League Most Valuable Player Award en route to leading the Cardinals to a World Series championship.

• Gil Hodges was named to eight All-Star Games in an 18-year big league career as a first baseman with the Dodgers and Mets, winning three Gold Glove Awards and leading the Dodgers to seven National League pennants and two World Series titles. As a manager, Hodges led the 1969 Miracle Mets to the World Series title.

• Jim Kaat pitched 25 seasons with the Senators, Twins, White Sox, Phillies, Yankees and Cardinals, winning 283 games over the course of four different decades. Kaat was named to three All-Star Games and helped the Cardinals win the 1982 World Series.

• Roger Maris won back-to-back American League Most Valuable Player Awards in 1960 and 1961, setting a new single-season home run record in the latter season with 61. In 12 big league seasons with the Indians, Athletics, Yankees and Cardinals, Maris earned seven All-Star Game selections and was a part of three World Series title teams.

• Minnie Miñoso played 17 seasons with the Indians, White Sox, Cardinals and Senators, earning nine AL/NL All-Star Game selections and three Gold Glove Awards as an outfielder. A native of Cuba, he blazed a trail for Latin American players in the big leagues starting in the 1950s.

• Danny Murtaugh managed Pittsburgh to four National League East titles, two NL pennants and World Series wins in 1960 and 1971 over 15 seasons. He fielded the first all-Black/Hispanic lineup in big league history on Sept. 1, 1971. Murtaugh compiled a 1,115-950 record with five first-place finishes.

• Tony Oliva played 15 seasons for the Twins, winning three batting titles and leading the American League in hits five times. He was named to eight All-Star Games and won the 1964 AL Rookie of the Year Award.

• Billy Pierce complied a 211-169 record with a 3.27 ERA in 18 seasons, 13 with the Chicago White Sox. A seven-time All-Star, he led the league in complete games three straight seasons, totaling 193 overall. He posted the lowest ERA in the AL in 1955 (1.97).

• Maury Wills played 14 seasons from 1959-72, 12 with the Los Angeles Dodgers, with a .281 lifetime average and 586 career stolen bases. The 1962 NL MVP was a seven-time All-Star and two-time Gold Glove Award winner at shortstop.

 
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Eephus

Footballguy
Golden Days Era Committee inductees: Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso and Tony Oliva.  **** Allen fell one vote short

Early Baseball Era Committee inductees: Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil.  Bill Dahlen could not be reached for comment.

 

Don Quixote

Footballguy
Dahlen get screwed again.
A bit weird that he went from 2 votes short last time to being on the list of only receiving 3 or fewer. He was up against more this year, and the lack of voting for any Negro league players in the past 15 years probably hurt him.

 

Bogart

Footballguy
A bit weird that he went from 2 votes short last time to being on the list of only receiving 3 or fewer. He was up against more this year, and the lack of voting for any Negro league players in the past 15 years probably hurt him.


The voters were all like, "yeah, but what has he done lately??"

Dahlen will always be a favorite of mine thanks to all of the WhatIf Sim that we have done.

 

Don Quixote

Footballguy
The NotMrTibbs tracker is live here: http://bit.ly/hof2022

Not really any net positive movement among those on their last year so far. Biggest net change so far looks like Schilling and Vizquel losing votes.

 
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guru_007

Footballguy
Just over 10 days to go and just over 40% of ballots tabulated

Looks like Big Papi may well be the only inductee this year.

Schilling getting hammered, losing 20 votes already, don't see him making these up

Clemens and Bonds currently over threshold, percentagewise, but I have a feeling they will both fall short as they needed to make up over 50 votes each, and unless the late voters have a major change of heart, think they'll both fall about 30-40 short.  Arod in his first year only receiving 40% of vote.  I dunno, but as I grew up watching all 3 of these players in their primes, they're all no doubt HOF'ers :shrug:

I also think Andruw Jones and Jeff Kent are worthy, but Kent is in his 9th year and it isn't happening and Jones in his 5th year is trending up, but only at 50% now.

Only other guy I think has a chance this year appears to be Scott Rolen.  To me, he is in the hall of extremely good players, but a tier below the HOF, but I mean if Harold Baines got voted in, Rolen certainly more than deserves a place as well because ffs Rolen's offensive WAR crushes Baines who was just a hitter, and Rolen's defense was outstanding as well.

 

Don Quixote

Footballguy
Just over 10 days to go and just over 40% of ballots tabulated

Looks like Big Papi may well be the only inductee this year.

Schilling getting hammered, losing 20 votes already, don't see him making these up

Clemens and Bonds currently over threshold, percentagewise, but I have a feeling they will both fall short as they needed to make up over 50 votes each, and unless the late voters have a major change of heart, think they'll both fall about 30-40 short.  Arod in his first year only receiving 40% of vote.  I dunno, but as I grew up watching all 3 of these players in their primes, they're all no doubt HOF'ers :shrug:

I also think Andruw Jones and Jeff Kent are worthy, but Kent is in his 9th year and it isn't happening and Jones in his 5th year is trending up, but only at 50% now.

Only other guy I think has a chance this year appears to be Scott Rolen.  To me, he is in the hall of extremely good players, but a tier below the HOF, but I mean if Harold Baines got voted in, Rolen certainly more than deserves a place as well because ffs Rolen's offensive WAR crushes Baines who was just a hitter, and Rolen's defense was outstanding as well.
That is how it is looking to me too.

Surprising Big Papi well ahead of the others, as he has similar allegations. I guess sportswriters will hold steroids against players, unless the player is good with interviews and access.

 

Don Quixote

Footballguy
Results announced tonight at 6pm ET. 

Still looks like just Ortiz.

Rolen putting a pretty good net positive total though. Expect he will fall short this year, but momentum may pick up for him in the next year or two.

 
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whoknew

Footballguy
That is how it is looking to me too.

Surprising Big Papi well ahead of the others, as he has similar allegations. I guess sportswriters will hold steroids against players, unless the player is good with interviews and access.


Yea I don't get this. Why does Papi get a steroid pass?

 

greenmountaingoat

Footballguy
Happy for Big Papi. Red Sox fan full rose colored glasses. I understand that he was reported to have been on the list that was supposed to have been confidential. And his age related stats scream … something. But he’s my guy. Love him. Pedro and Papi are treasures. Just happy for him. 

 

Don Quixote

Footballguy
Happy for Big Papi. Red Sox fan full rose colored glasses. I understand that he was reported to have been on the list that was supposed to have been confidential. And his age related stats scream … something. But he’s my guy. Love him. Pedro and Papi are treasures. Just happy for him. 


I'm not a Sox fan, but happy for him too and deserves to be in. My earlier comment was more about why not the others too, and not a knock against him going in.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Woot! Ortiz in the Hall. Never thought he would make it in. I'm stunned it was on the first ballot. 

Deserves it, IMO. 

 

greenmountaingoat

Footballguy
I understand that his age curve doesn’t scream ‘normal’ but a couple of mitigating factors:

Most of his gaudy late career stats happened after testing became normal and he was passing them.  Not the cases for bonds/Clemens IIRC.

Also, he was the key figure in one of the most historically important moments in Baseball. And then burnished his postseason credentials over and over.

But I see the other side of the argument too. 

 

jobarules

Footballguy
I understand that his age curve doesn’t scream ‘normal’ but a couple of mitigating factors:

Most of his gaudy late career stats happened after testing became normal and he was passing them.  Not the cases for bonds/Clemens IIRC.

Also, he was the key figure in one of the most historically important moments in Baseball. And then burnished his postseason credentials over and over.

But I see the other side of the argument too. 
There is no other side of the argument. Hes a no doubt about it lock HOFer. But so should be Bonds, Clemens, ARod, and Manny

 

rockaction

Footballguy
But so should be Bonds, Clemens, ARod, and Manny
Problem, as I know all you diehards know, is that you can draw a distinction between arrested and caught vs. leaked because of the Mitchell report years prior to Ortiz' name being dumped. All of those guys got arrested by the feds or suspended by baseball during testing of some sort. Ortiz only got his name unofficially leaked. 

That's enough cover (think of that what you will) for Ortiz to skate in the voters' minds, I guess. But that doesn't explain why Bagwell and Piazza took so long, IMO. Those were only rumors. Biggio, too. They never got waxed in any report, really, IIRC. 

 
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jobarules

Footballguy
Problem, as I know all you diehards know, is that you can draw a distinction between arrested and caught vs. leaked because of the Mitchell report years prior to Ortiz' name being dumped. All of those guys got arrested by the feds or suspended by baseball during testing of some sort. Ortiz only got his name unofficially leaked. 

That's enough cover (think of that what you will) for Ortiz to skate in the voters' minds, I guess. But that doesn't explain why Bagwell and Piazza took so long, IMO. Those were only rumors. Biggio, too. They never got waxed in any report, really, IIRC. 
I couldn't care less if those guys did steroids. Every player was doing them back then. They were still hall of famers without the steroids.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
I couldn't care less if those guys did steroids. Every player was doing them back then. They were still hall of famers without the steroids.
Yeah, I agree. All of them. I don't want to argue it, I'm just pointing out what sort of cover that gives the voters. Those four all were either arrested, charged and found guilty, or suspended by baseball at one point. Ortiz had none of that. So it gives voters a cover.

 

Don Quixote

Footballguy
Yeah, I agree. All of them. I don't want to argue it, I'm just pointing out what sort of cover that gives the voters. Those four all were either arrested, charged and found guilty, or suspended by baseball at one point. Ortiz had none of that. So it gives voters a cover.
Sosa is one that is pretty similar. Just outed by the 2009 New York Times report as one of those tested positive in 2003, but he never got over 17% of the vote.

Skillset-wise, I think close to equal, but Ortiz has the World Series wins. It seems like the sportswriter cover is that Ortiz played a decent portion during the testing era, whereas Sosa’s career was largely over by that point.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Sosa is one that is pretty similar. Just outed by the 2009 New York Times report as one of those tested positive in 2003, but he never got over 17% of the vote.

Skillset-wise, I think close to equal, but Ortiz has the World Series wins. It seems like the sportswriter cover is that Ortiz played a decent portion during the testing era, whereas Sosa’s career was largely over by that point.
I agree with this. Just figured I'd say something in response. It all sounds like solid reasoning and assessment to me. I think Manny falls under the Sosa rubric, too. He got bagged twice during the testing regime, and played a long time without testing. 

But I think most of the guys that jobarules mentioned should be in. I think Clemens and Barry especially aren't debatable, partially because you can almost see when they started using, though we'll never really know. 

It's a thorny issue, and one I don't really have the answer for. 

Back to Ortiz, I was crushed the day in 2009 that his name was leaked. It just...I knew that some guys were using, but I was crestfallen he had. I sort of hoped beyond all reason that he wasn't. I knew better deep down, and I always thought I knew who the Sox were that were definitely on the juice (yes, Trot Nixon, bodies don't change that much in the span of three years). So that day was definitely a bummer, and was mixed with some irrational fan anger and frustration about it. I don't think he'll ever be fully clean or exonerated. 

But that he never got caught after that was heartening. At least he learned and operated for over a decade under testing conditions, being just as excellent at an eye-popping age, which leads me to think he just may have been better at getting away with it and having a better PR crew. "Canseco with PR" they called him, right?

Anyway, I'll let you all get back to the Hall now. 

 

Eephus

Footballguy
I'm over it.  The BBHOF is their club and they can decide who gets in.  I've always been a big hall guy so I've had a lot to disagree with over the decades.

My personal opinion is that the Hall is diminished more by not admitting Bonds, Clemens, etc. than by keeping them out but it's a no win proposition.  Baseball seems to have a number of those at the moment. 

 

Bluesbomber

Footballguy
Chicago White Sox fan so I love Harold Baines. Tony Oliva, Minnie Minosa, and **** Allen not in HOF needs to be rectified With Harold in.

 There are others , I am sure but from my personal experience they stand out.

 

Leroy Hoard

Footballguy
Such a farce that the writers voted in Ortiz, Piazza and Pudge, while keeping out Bonds and Clemens.

There has to be a better way to vote on the Hall members than having "sportswriters" do it.
Right up there with the rock and roll hall of fame as far as being a joke.

 

BeTheMatch

Let it burn!
Such a farce that the writers voted in Ortiz, Piazza and Pudge, while keeping out Bonds and Clemens.

There has to be a better way to vote on the Hall members than having "sportswriters" do it.
MLB has been steering them in this direction the whole time. They had Joe Morgan write a letter to all sports writers several years back urging them not to vote for steroid users. All while Bud Selig who oversaw the whole mess and was part of MLB's multiple collusion efforts to keep down salaries got swept right in to the Hall.

 

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