What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

2023-24 NBA (Playoffs!) Thread, Presented by YouTubeTV (9 Viewers)

Side note - in my notebook of most overrated players in the history of the NBA, Kevin McHale is #2, behind Isiah Thomas . Some others on the list - Kobe, Wilkins, Durant, Reggie Miller, James Worthy, and anybody other than Russell on all those 60s Celtics teams.
Can't agree on McHale. He seems ranked where he should be. Agree on the rest though. Probably add Melo to the list
I thought about Melo, but I think the pendulum has swung back. Certainly he was overrated during his playing time, but I think he was so well known to be overrated toward the end of his playing days that he is roughly properly rated.
Melo was amazing that year at Cuse. I won the FBG contest having them winning it all. His NBA career was wicked overrated imo.
In what sense? I think he was generally somewhere between about the 10th-12th best player in the league for half of this career and had a couple years where he approached top 5 - his accolades support that, and I think the general consensus in 2024 supports that.

I do have a soft spot for the 08-09 Nuggets and I think they were the second best team in the NBA that season and the back half of that season into the next season was Melo's best play of his career because he was actually playing defense.
 
So as he's done during the morning after the later evening weekday games where he usually has to be in bed by halftime, Little Woz immediately woke up and came to find me to get the result of the game. This time though, instead of the usual "Did the Timberwolves win?" said with optimism, it went like this:

Little Woz: "Did the Timberwolves lose?"
Me: "Yeah buddy, unfortunately."
Little Woz: "Because of The Joker?"
Me: "Yeah, he played really good."

Little Woz starts to form some tears so I send him off to get some breakfast. He comes back a few minutes later and this exchange occurs...

Little Woz: "Daddy, will the Timberwolves win next game?"
Me: "I hope so, but the Nuggets are very good. The game is in Minnesota though so I like our choices."
Little Woz: "Oh. I think I might cheers for the Nuggets and The Joker. Can we be Nuggets fans and get new hats?"
Me (heart breaking a bit): "Well, this is part of being a sports fan. We should stick by our team even if they lose. And this time they're losing to a really good team. It's also not over. How about we cheer for the Timberwolves or now and if the Nuggets win we can cheer for them the rest of the playoffs?"
Little Woz (clearly disappointed): "Okay."

He then goes upstairs and punches his little sister and gets in trouble. He at least did so wearing his Timberwolves hat.

Rough morning in the Woz household. I just
He then goes upstairs and punches his little sister and gets in trouble. He at least did so wearing his Timberwolves hat.

:lmao:

Maybe Lil Woz X has been watching too many Patrick Beverley videos.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zow
Side note - in my notebook of most overrated players in the history of the NBA, Kevin McHale is #2, behind Isiah Thomas . Some others on the list - Kobe, Wilkins, Durant, Reggie Miller, James Worthy, and anybody other than Russell on all those 60s Celtics teams.
Can't agree on McHale. He seems ranked where he should be. Agree on the rest though. Probably add Melo to the list
I thought about Melo, but I think the pendulum has swung back. Certainly he was overrated during his playing time, but I think he was so well known to be overrated toward the end of his playing days that he is roughly properly rated.
How about Ewing? Or Karl Malone?
Regardless who it is, your aim is to bone
 
Last edited:
Dennis Rodman would find a way to make life difficult for Jokic.
No chance
OK
Rodman appears to have weighed 210 when he played which seems generous but whatever. He’d be giving up 75 pounds and maybe 6 inches to Joker.

I think Rodman is probably the best individual defensive player ever but how the hell would he have a chance here. He’d be dominated.
Dennis was a pretty patient defender and was great at moving his feet and getting his body in position ahead of the other guy. Joker and Rodman would be epic to watch.
I just think Joker would hip push him under the hoop and then flick that little hook shot up there.
 
Last edited:
For the sake of whoever that comes out of the west (Nuggets, obviously), is it better for them to have the Celtics play a whole bunch of ****ty injured teams in the first three rounds, or to hope for a little bit health resurgence with the Knicks so it is a moderately competitive series?

With as mediocre as the Celtics have looked in winning against the Heat and Cavs, having a ****ty version of the Pacers/Knicks would keep the Celtics rested but complacent and untested which might be a big advantage for the west team in the first game or two as the Celtics ramp up to real playoff basketball. A strong Knicks team would let the Celtics get used to real playoff basketball, but might win a couple games and beat up the Celtics a bit to tire them out a bit before the finals.
 
For the sake of whoever that comes out of the west (Nuggets, obviously), is it better for them to have the Celtics play a whole bunch of ****ty injured teams in the first three rounds, or to hope for a little bit health resurgence with the Knicks so it is a moderately competitive series?

With as mediocre as the Celtics have looked in winning against the Heat and Cavs, having a ****ty version of the Pacers/Knicks would keep the Celtics rested but complacent and untested which might be a big advantage for the west team in the first game or two as the Celtics ramp up to real playoff basketball. A strong Knicks team would let the Celtics get used to real playoff basketball, but might win a couple games and beat up the Celtics a bit to tire them out a bit before the finals.
Funny, I had this conversation with a coworker maybe twenty minutes ago as she's a Celtics fan. We were both undecided (though she's pretty confident the Celtics are the best time regardless - I pushed back that I think the Celtics are underdogs to Denver and maybe a pick with Minnesota).
 
Dennis Rodman would find a way to make life difficult for Jokic.
No chance
OK
Rodman appears to have weighed 210 when he played which seems generous but whatever. He’d be giving up 75 pounds and maybe 6 inches to Joker.

I think Rodman is probably the best individual defensive player ever but how the hell would he have a chance here. He’d be dominated.
Dennis was a pretty patient defender and was great at moving his feet and getting his body in position ahead of the other guy. Joker and Rodman would be epic to watch.
I just think Joker would hip push him under the hoop and then flick that little hook **** up there.
Rodman is the same size as somebody like Mikal Bridges. I agree that he is one of the very best defenders of all time, but there is no way a player his size wouldn't get taken advantage of against Jokic.
 
I'm on board with Reggie Miller being very overrated. Most of his rep is built off those 8 points in whatever seconds vs. the Knicks, and the rest is from that 3 he hit against the Bulls where he got away with shoving Jordan the hell out of the way in order to get open to catch the ball and shoot.
 
What has happened to Darius Garland? He looked like a future star two years ago. He's been legit bad this postseason, other than the last game, and had a very mediocre regular season.
 
For the sake of whoever that comes out of the west (Nuggets, obviously), is it better for them to have the Celtics play a whole bunch of ****ty injured teams in the first three rounds, or to hope for a little bit health resurgence with the Knicks so it is a moderately competitive series?

With as mediocre as the Celtics have looked in winning against the Heat and Cavs, having a ****ty version of the Pacers/Knicks would keep the Celtics rested but complacent and untested which might be a big advantage for the west team in the first game or two as the Celtics ramp up to real playoff basketball. A strong Knicks team would let the Celtics get used to real playoff basketball, but might win a couple games and beat up the Celtics a bit to tire them out a bit before the finals.
Funny, I had this conversation with a coworker maybe twenty minutes ago as she's a Celtics fan. We were both undecided (though she's pretty confident the Celtics are the best time regardless - I pushed back that I think the Celtics are underdogs to Denver and maybe a pick with Minnesota).
I lean slightly to having a healthy-ish Knicks team being better for the west, but I think it's pretty close.
 
Side note - in my notebook of most overrated players in the history of the NBA, Kevin McHale is #2, behind Isiah Thomas . Some others on the list - Kobe, Wilkins, Durant, Reggie Miller, James Worthy, and anybody other than Russell on all those 60s Celtics teams.
Can't agree on McHale. He seems ranked where he should be. Agree on the rest though. Probably add Melo to the list
I thought about Melo, but I think the pendulum has swung back. Certainly he was overrated during his playing time, but I think he was so well known to be overrated toward the end of his playing days that he is roughly properly rated.
How about Ewing? Or Karl Malone?
Regardless who it is, you’re aim is to bone
:atcq:
 
What has happened to Darius Garland? He looked like a future star two years ago. He's been legit bad this postseason, other than the last game, and had a very mediocre regular season.
It seems like his season got derailed after his injury, though I was looking through his game logs the other day and it wasn’t totally clear to me that that was the issue
 
Cason guards Kyrie better than anyone, and you can then slide JDub over to Washington. Joe is a better shooter but not by some ridiculous amount, and you still have to try and hide him on defense. I don’t understand
 
Side note - in my notebook of most overrated players in the history of the NBA, Kevin McHale is #2, behind Isiah Thomas . Some others on the list - Kobe, Wilkins, Durant, Reggie Miller, James Worthy, and anybody other than Russell on all those 60s Celtics teams.
Can't agree on McHale. He seems ranked where he should be. Agree on the rest though. Probably add Melo to the list
I thought about Melo, but I think the pendulum has swung back. Certainly he was overrated during his playing time, but I think he was so well known to be overrated toward the end of his playing days that he is roughly properly rated.
How about Ewing? Or Karl Malone?
Regardless who it is, you’re aim is to bone
:atcq:
Represent represent
 
I'm on board with Reggie Miller being very overrated. Most of his rep is built off those 8 points in whatever seconds vs. the Knicks, and the rest is from that 3 he hit against the Bulls where he got away with shoving Jordan the hell out of the way in order to get open to catch the ball and shoot.

I guess my question is who overrates Reggie Miller...I think most people see him the same way.
 
With as mediocre as the Celtics have looked in winning against the Heat and Cavs,
Celtics beat the Heat by 20, 20, 14, and 24

They beat the Cavs by 25, 13, 7, and 15

They had two stinkers of game 2's, where they lost by a combined by 34, but winning 7 of 8 by double digits with 4 of those games being 20+
 
Dennis Rodman would find a way to make life difficult for Jokic.
No chance
OK
Rodman appears to have weighed 210 when he played which seems generous but whatever. He’d be giving up 75 pounds and maybe 6 inches to Joker.

I think Rodman is probably the best individual defensive player ever but how the hell would he have a chance here. He’d be dominated.
Dennis was a pretty patient defender and was great at moving his feet and getting his body in position ahead of the other guy. Joker and Rodman would be epic to watch.
yeah, i'm not saying Rodman would shut him down, which apparently some people think is the definition of defense. i'm saying he's the guy that would use his speed, brain, positioning and irritability to disrupt what Denver wants to do.

that doesn't mean shutout Jokic. it doesn't mean Jokic isn't a basketball genius who will put up numbers, it means that Rodman is going to throw the kitchen sink at Jokic and make for an interesting chess match.

Rodman was amazing when he was totally dialed in and i think in a playoff series we'd get the full Rodman experience. he seemed to fare just fine in the rugged 80s and 90s guarding bigger players. could he handle someone like Jokic that is super-skilled? i'd like to have a time machine to see it.
 
I guess my question is who overrates Reggie Miller...I think most people see him the same way
I have always thought of Reggie as underrated. Those Pacer teams of the 90's where like the Bucks of the 80's--excellent but unfortunate to share time and space with all-time great teams--and he was the best player.

From a physical standpoint, it is impressive that someone as lean as he was, and who played in an era with hand-checking and where you had to fight through every screen, lasted in the league until he was 40.
 
I guess my question is who overrates Reggie Miller...I think most people see him the same way
I have always thought of Reggie as underrated. Those Pacer teams of the 90's where like the Bucks of the 80's--excellent but unfortunate to share time and space with all-time great teams--and he was the best player.

From a physical standpoint, it is impressive that someone as lean as he was, and who played in an era with hand-checking and where you had to fight through every screen, lasted in the league until he was 40.
the guy was a killer, too. that was a tough era, he was early on the 3-pt shooting curve, he hit big shots and was never scared no matter the circumstance.
 
Mavs gotta be sure to close out this game tonight. They could have been done and get an extra couple nights of rest for Luka's knee if they didn't flub the finish to last game.

Impressive they're up this much too, getting nothing from PJ.
 
I guess my question is who overrates Reggie Miller...I think most people see him the same way
I have always thought of Reggie as underrated. Those Pacer teams of the 90's where like the Bucks of the 80's--excellent but unfortunate to share time and space with all-time great teams--and he was the best player.

From a physical standpoint, it is impressive that someone as lean as he was, and who played in an era with hand-checking and where you had to fight through every screen, lasted in the league until he was 40.
I have a hard time thinking that one of the players that Michael Jordan said gave him one of the hardest times is over rated. Jordan said the team that gave him the most difficult challenge were the bad boy Pistons—and second to that it was the Reggie Miller led Pacers. The one time Reggie and the Pacers played against Jordan and the Bulls in the playoffs—it went 7 games.
 
I guess my question is who overrates Reggie Miller...I think most people see him the same way
I have always thought of Reggie as underrated. Those Pacer teams of the 90's where like the Bucks of the 80's--excellent but unfortunate to share time and space with all-time great teams--and he was the best player.

From a physical standpoint, it is impressive that someone as lean as he was, and who played in an era with hand-checking and where you had to fight through every screen, lasted in the league until he was 40.
I have a hard time thinking that one of the players that Michael Jordan said gave him one of the hardest times is over rated. Jordan said the team that gave him the most difficult challenge were the bad boy Pistons—and second to that it was the Reggie Miller led Pacers. The one time Reggie and the Pacers played against Jordan and the Bulls in the playoffs—it went 7 games.
Jordan has definitely proven to be a great judge of talent.
 
I guess my question is who overrates Reggie Miller...I think most people see him the same way
I have always thought of Reggie as underrated. Those Pacer teams of the 90's where like the Bucks of the 80's--excellent but unfortunate to share time and space with all-time great teams--and he was the best player.

From a physical standpoint, it is impressive that someone as lean as he was, and who played in an era with hand-checking and where you had to fight through every screen, lasted in the league until he was 40.
I have a hard time thinking that one of the players that Michael Jordan said gave him one of the hardest times is over rated. Jordan said the team that gave him the most difficult challenge were the bad boy Pistons—and second to that it was the Reggie Miller led Pacers. The one time Reggie and the Pacers played against Jordan and the Bulls in the playoffs—it went 7 games.
Jordan has definitely proven to be a great judge of talent.
Maybe not as a GM but I have no reason to question who gave him the biggest challenge competing on the court in his prime. Would you like to tell him who gave him the hardest time?
 
I guess my question is who overrates Reggie Miller...I think most people see him the same way
I have always thought of Reggie as underrated. Those Pacer teams of the 90's where like the Bucks of the 80's--excellent but unfortunate to share time and space with all-time great teams--and he was the best player.

From a physical standpoint, it is impressive that someone as lean as he was, and who played in an era with hand-checking and where you had to fight through every screen, lasted in the league until he was 40.
I have a hard time thinking that one of the players that Michael Jordan said gave him one of the hardest times is over rated. Jordan said the team that gave him the most difficult challenge were the bad boy Pistons—and second to that it was the Reggie Miller led Pacers. The one time Reggie and the Pacers played against Jordan and the Bulls in the playoffs—it went 7 games.
Jordan has definitely proven to be a great judge of talent.
Maybe not as a GM but I have no reason to question who gave him the biggest challenge competing on the court in his prime. Would you like to tell him who gave him the hardest time?
Christian Laettner?
 
It seemed Kyrie sat most of the third. I'm guessing that was the previously tired followup by Kidd.
SGA was excellent but there were several stretches where it seemed only he could score. The announcers kept mentioning the Mavs were giving them the 3 and they kept shooting twos. I don't get it. Why not hit the open shot?
They blew a chance to grab a win with what was probably overthinking.
Exceptional low foul numbers by OKC til like two minutes left.
Luka played great per usual
 
What a game. Solidified a few observations, I think, not much new to learn really:

1. Luka looked healthy. Just like Jamal Murray game 2 to 3, same difference for Luka game 4 to 5. Best he's looked this round for sure - lift on boards, separation on stepback, swats SGA, moves his feet well the whole 4th on d...if he's healthy now this is a really dangerous team and hope is restored

2. I don't know how people don't see the Dort = early career Smart. Think about all the things that happen: multiple 3-pt airballs on critical possessions with time on shot clock, flops or fouls on many screens (he flopped so hard on one with like 2-3 minutes left on a Kyrie/Luka PnR that they just went 2 on 1 for an easy basket in a clutch moment. Then he came down and airballed one. He's overrated defensively, where all he does is just hold and grab and flop on people. I guess I hadn't watched enough OKC, he may not be my least favorite player to watch.

3. Best officiated game of the series (I'm sure we're all thrilled for my take there!). First game where they evenly called stuff for SGA and Luka - they seemed to decide to let them play a lot, and they did it consistently, all game, both ends.

4. Best announced game of the series. I'd take Ian Eagle every single game, and Grant Hill made no errors.

5. I haven't read through the thread yet - are there a bunch of posts about how great it is to see Luka never complain and bust his butt back on D every possession and push the pace on offense all game? I assume so, since we pay so much attention to it. (It is nice, and sets a good tone for sure. Also easy to see you get down when you're hurt and they just let Dort hit and hold you all game).

6. I love Chet and am very afraid of what having to go through him (and Wemby) is gonna mean in the West eventually. Guy is an animal, with attitude, and all the skills. Let's just hope that time is still a couple years away.

7. SGA is so silky smooth and slithery. I think Green, PJ, and DJJ are learning to keep their feet with all the repeat plays - either he's gonna hit a bunch of miracle midrange faders or he needs to drive - when he attacks he just seems to blow by the perimeter guys every time and he has that off beat Steve Nash style finishing that's really tough to block.
 
5. I haven't read through the thread yet - are there a bunch of posts about how great it is to see Luka never complain and bust his butt back on D every possession and push the pace on offense all game? I assume so, since we pay so much attention to it. (It is nice, and sets a good tone for sure. Also easy to see you get down when you're hurt and they just let Dort hit and hold you all game).

There’s no need to point out something that every player on every team should be doing every game. I get your need to defend Luka but he’s a whiny ***** until proven otherwise. One of the best 5 players in the league but still a whiny *****.
 
5. I haven't read through the thread yet - are there a bunch of posts about how great it is to see Luka never complain and bust his butt back on D every possession and push the pace on offense all game? I assume so, since we pay so much attention to it. (It is nice, and sets a good tone for sure. Also easy to see you get down when you're hurt and they just let Dort hit and hold you all game).

There’s no need to point out something that every player on every team should be doing every game. I get your need to defend Luka but he’s a whiny ***** until proven otherwise. One of the best 5 players in the league but still a whiny *****.
But not last night. When healthy. And when they actually made the calls on his defender whacking him. Cool.
 
For those that are pretty insistent that the Celtics have no chance against the Nuggets (if those are the teams that end up in the finals), Boston has won this season by making three pointers in volume. They are now 58-9 (.866) when they make 15 of them (73% of their games) and 14-11 when they don't. The Nuggets are 6-9 when they allow 15 three points and 58-19 when they don't. Boston fell 1 three pointer short of 15 in the first game against Denver (when the Nuggets won by 2 points). The second game Boston only made 11 threes (and the game was still a one possession game in the final minute). Yeah, I get it, Joker is insane, Murray can be clutch, the Nuggets turned the switch on lately, while Boston has mostly been sleepwalking. But the math is the math . . . if the numbers hold, Boston would have 5 games with 15 made threes in a 7-game series. I get it, analytics don't always play out the same, and a calculator has never won a playoff game. I just find it interesting that there's a long list of people that have suggested Boston would lose to any team that comes out of the West.
 
5. I haven't read through the thread yet - are there a bunch of posts about how great it is to see Luka never complain and bust his butt back on D every possession and push the pace on offense all game? I assume so, since we pay so much attention to it. (It is nice, and sets a good tone for sure. Also easy to see you get down when you're hurt and they just let Dort hit and hold you all game).

There’s no need to point out something that every player on every team should be doing every game. I get your need to defend Luka but he’s a whiny ***** until proven otherwise. One of the best 5 players in the league but still a whiny *****.
But not last night. When healthy. And when they actually made the calls on his defender whacking him. Cool.

Not exactly a gold star moment, refraining from whining for 48 minutes


The 'healthy' excuse ain't working for me; ultimately his choice for his behavior.

Also a much more pleasant, enjoyable game to watch with the choice he made last night
 
For those that are pretty insistent that the Celtics have no chance against the Nuggets (if those are the teams that end up in the finals), Boston has won this season by making three pointers in volume. They are now 58-9 (.866) when they make 15 of them (73% of their games) and 14-11 when they don't. The Nuggets are 6-9 when they allow 15 three points and 58-19 when they don't. Boston fell 1 three pointer short of 15 in the first game against Denver (when the Nuggets won by 2 points). The second game Boston only made 11 threes (and the game was still a one possession game in the final minute). Yeah, I get it, Joker is insane, Murray can be clutch, the Nuggets turned the switch on lately, while Boston has mostly been sleepwalking. But the math is the math . . . if the numbers hold, Boston would have 5 games with 15 made threes in a 7-game series. I get it, analytics don't always play out the same, and a calculator has never won a playoff game. I just find it interesting that there's a long list of people that have suggested Boston would lose to any team that comes out of the West.
Not a mention of any defense

That's where analytics loses me
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top