Chaka
Footballguy
And extra picks to play with from the Payton signing.
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2023 Las Vegas Raiders - RIP Jack - one of the greatest Super Bowl moments ever (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
Chaka
Footballguy
Why? That's hardly an outrageous price tag in today's NFL. Salary cap is increasing by $17 mil (IIRC) and considering it's a one year commitment it isn't crazy at all.
If he's the first QB to market he should get a multi year deal with a guaranteed average over $33 mil.
massraider
Footballguy
First argument that makes sense to me.
The only thing is, they can tell Carr to play ball, and they aren't cutting him, but if he's set on New Orleans, and they go in another direction, he can say, nah, I am good, I'll sit on the bench. He has that no-trade clause, we can't send him to Washington.
Obviously he wants to play, I would think it's highly unlikely it would get that bad, but you cannot use that cap space till he's gone.
Boston
Footballguy
Not really...the #1 they got replaces the #1 they traded...this year they have...1, 2, 3, 4, 5x2 and 7...they have an extra 2 in 2024 but no 3 as part of the Payton deal.
ZADO
Footballguy
JOSH JACOBSRB, LAS VEGAS RAIDERS
The Athletic's Tashan Reed reports Raiders running back Josh Jacobs is not interested in playing on the franchise tag in 2023.
Jacobs responded with three words when asked if he would play on the franchise tag in 2023 if the two sides could not reach a multi-year deal - "Hero turned villain." Jacobs said that the two sides had not yet opened contract discussions but that he expected negotiations to begin in the coming week. Jacobs is coming off his most productive season as a professional, leading the league with 1,653 yards on the ground and finishing with 12 touchdowns and more than 2,000 yards from scrimmage.
Chaka
Footballguy
Sitting on the bench for a year kills Carr. It will put him square in the middle of the "prove it" contract period of his career. He'll be 33 which ain't old but it also ain't young in the NFL. Russell Wilson was 33 at the start of the 2022 off-season. Derek Carr doesn't have that resume, and he absolutely wants to sign his contract before he has to prove it.
The NFL has a dangerously short memory and his last film is a 3 pick brain fart in a must win game against a, by most accounts , inferior opponent.
Plus, as you said, Carr doesn't want to ride the pine for the Raiders and, he probably doesn't want to expose himself to 17 games as the starter for a team that doesn't want him.
If the Raiders cut him it's only because they are the same stupid, dysfunctional, zero cajones franchise we have known for the past 20+ years.
They made the move on Carr, now they need to own that move and sack up, make a statement to Carr and the league that they aren't ####### around anymore.
ETA: doubt that will happen but, IMO, that is what they need to do.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Love the thought process. Zero faith or even optimism that the bowl-cut boys share it. We shall see soon enough.
Chaka
Footballguy
Posturing. He may hold out for a bit, but when the daily no-show fines start hitting he'll be there. He's not going to sit out. missing a year, even with a nice payday, is a horrible proposition for a player.Ugh that Jacobs quote is ominous. Welcome to the Josh McDonald's show. Can't wait to see what's next.
Chaka
Footballguy
McDaniels & Ziegler share that opinion, IMO 100%, but you're right it's all about Mark Davis and his poor/rich beliefs.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Carr’s salary is #9 next year. If the raiders cut him, I see him him getting something in the prove it 20M range. A 13M pay Cut. That’s a lotta cheddar.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
If the Raiders cut Carr, it will be another of the horrible personnel management moves that continues the downward spiral. Carr isn’t even the biggest reason for the losses. Only the Raiders would make the decision to cut a top 10 QB .
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Not even LVR are bad enough to cut a guy they don't yet have though...
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Call him top 12 if you want but the Raiders are treating Carr as if he iwas the main problem for the losses. It is very likely that we are going to miss Carr. Carr isn’t great and lacks the aggressive play that is needed but he is good enough to build a team around.
ICON211
Footballguy
I don't think they are treating him like he is the main problem. They are treating him like any other player that is not part of the solution. He played poorly last year and did not react well to the current coach. And they would have to pay him a salary that they do not feel he is worth.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
The NFL should outlaw giving draft picks for coaches. They should be able to sign anywh after they been out of coaching for a year or two.Maybe. Wilson ain’t drew brees. And they just keep giving up draft picks.. That Walmart money is what Payton went after.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I agree with you for the most part. Carr continues to make poor decisions and isn’t aggressive enough through games or even week to week. Carr took a step back this season and I would feel more confident in ditching Carr if I had more faith in Mc D. Maybe that happens this year.
You guys ready to watch Aaron Rodgers’ career bottom out in Vegas? I’m not. We’re going to mortgage our future for a few more wins this year. But then again, who is a better option? Going into the season with Stidham as the #1 QB with a rookie behind him doesn’t necessarily excite anyone. If they had a defense to rely on, I’d be a little more optimistic, but when you need a QB and revamp your defense, that can’t be good right?
DocHolliday
Footballguy
The Raiders are more than a QB away from being SB bound. No point in signing Rogers when the D needs serious upgrades.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I completely agree, but this is why it is a lock that bowl-cut boy makes the deal. Mark Davis isn't the answer; he is the problem.
massraider
Footballguy
Yeah, we were all sure he was gonna get Brady, now we all sure he gonna get Rodgers.
The only thing I am sure of is that people really can't get over a haircut
The only thing I am sure of is that people really can't get over a haircut
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
The haircut is a metaphor for poor decision-making. We can certainly rehash the history from poor hires to turning a blind eye to some horrendous draft picks by his chosen coaches/GMs. Your call.
massraider
Footballguy
They all make poor hires.The haircut is a metaphor for poor decision-making. We can certainly rehash the history from poor hires to turning a blind eye to some horrendous draft picks by his chosen coaches/GMs. Your call.
Mayock Gruden was the disaster, and Raider Nation was all on board for that one
I agree, and every fan with half a brain agrees with you. Problem is all these giant egos from Davis to Adams think they have to get Rodgers to compete with the other QBs in the AFC West, failing to care that its KC and Philly’s Dline dominance that has gotten them to the Super Bowl.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
You are not remembering the reaction to these hires correctly. There were plenty of posters expressing their displeasure.
Regardless, it is not the fans' job to make the correct hires. It is the owner's responsibility ---> bowl-cut boy
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
not all of us...They all make poor hires.The haircut is a metaphor for poor decision-making. We can certainly rehash the history from poor hires to turning a blind eye to some horrendous draft picks by his chosen coaches/GMs. Your call.
Mayock Gruden was the disaster, and Raider Nation was all on board for that one
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
tommy boy is making an effort. whether you like his moves or not, he is shooting for the moon. hiring gruden at 100M!! was bold. stupid but bold. hiring mcZ was a big move. jones and adams were huge gets. jones ended up being not so great. right @Chadstroma ? shipping off carr is a ballsy move. half the fans are having strokes over it. if he hits on a few of these big moves, people might forgive the haircut.
shipping off carr is a ballsy move. half the fans are having strokes over it. if he hits on a few of these big moves, people might forgive the haircut.
massraider
Footballguy
Do you have any thoughts on his haircut
Hankmoody
Footballguy
The QB is the main problem in most losses. A great QB can bail out a bad D far better than a great D can bail out a bad QB. If the QB isn't the answer then he's the problem.
Yes, the D collapsed a ton on him and gave the game away, but they wouldn't be able to if the O were better early. Carr's always been a guy that didn't play his best until late in the game when he was behind. You never saw that killer instinct in the 2nd quarter to push a 10 point lead to a 24 point lead and let the D play loose and free.
It's not a metaphor, it's a manifestation.The haircut is a metaphor for poor decision-making. We can certainly rehash the history from poor hires to turning a blind eye to some horrendous draft picks by his chosen coaches/GMs. Your call.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Open question for anyone that is for Rodgers in Vegas...
Apparently a big factor for the Carr/McD relationship going south was being called out in front of the whole team which is a NE Belicheat/McD hallmark on how they do this business. Is anyone going to tell me that Rodgers is the type of guy that would be ok with that?
Apparently a big factor for the Carr/McD relationship going south was being called out in front of the whole team which is a NE Belicheat/McD hallmark on how they do this business. Is anyone going to tell me that Rodgers is the type of guy that would be ok with that?
ICON211
Footballguy
You make a fair point as he does seem to like to be treated differently. I was thinking about this as well.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
who knows. apparently brady was ok-ish with it for 20 years. winning cures all
He doesn’t have a no trade clause like Carr does. So if the Packers decide to trade him to LV and he doesn’t want to play for McD I guess he can just retire. Which I hope he does. I don’t want him, especially at the price it would take to get him.
Chaka
Footballguy
Disagree strongly with this one. Unless you're telling me that you think, right now, Brock Purdy (or Jimmy Garoppolo) is a better QB than Derek Carr.
A great defense is what allows a QB like Purdy, or Garoppolo, to play with confidence and not press when they don't have to.
The past and current history of the NFL is littered with examples of great defenses carrying teams.
Chaka
Footballguy
The defense gave up 5 second half double digit leads (or was it 6?), the offense didn't need to be better early it needed to be better early, mid and late.
raidersraidersraiders
Footballguy
the team was built to score points and couldn't. the defense was an afterthought. if I remember right, we did see the defense shut down the other team for either a first or second half and the offense didn't score. even when the D overachieved, the offense was still underachieving.
if carr is trent dilfer level qb, then the team is ok without him. mcD isn't about to build a 2000s ravens defense. the guy wants to score touchdowns, not win 9-0 or 15-3
if carr is trent dilfer level qb, then the team is ok without him. mcD isn't about to build a 2000s ravens defense. the guy wants to score touchdowns, not win 9-0 or 15-3
Hankmoody
Footballguy
This has nothing to do with what I said. Brock Purdy isn't a bad QB. Zach Wilson is, however, and that D did nothing for him. Same with Heineke. Give LVR Josh Allen and we're a playoff team right now. Well not right now, we'd be home by the 2nd round, but Allen would bail us out a lot more.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
How many years is it going to take the Raiders to get their Josh Allen or Hurts?
Chaka
Footballguy
Pretty confident adding Nick Bosa would also make them a playoff team.
massraider
Footballguy
Changing the subject to free agency:
Here is a breakdown of the Raiders’ top 10 unrestricted free agents, ranked in order of their value if they were to hit the open market next month. The ages listed are their age at the start of the 2023 season.
We’ll never know how much Jacobs was motivated by the Raiders not picking up his fifth-year option (he says not at all), but he lost 10 pounds, didn’t miss a game and led the league in rushing with 1,653 yards (4.9 yards per carry). He also had a career-high 400 yards receiving and continued to be a solid blocker in pass protection. He has always been a tough and slippery runner, as his 267 missed tackles lead the NFL over his four seasons.
Jacobs clearly won over the new regime, but how much? Enough for Ziegler to do the very un-Patriot-like thing of giving a running back a big, long-term contract? Or will they just throw him the bone of a $10.1 million one-year franchise tag?
Hollins tripled his career-high with 690 yards receiving and was also a standout on special teams coverage. Not to mention being a role model for younger players with his work ethic and extra running routines at offseason workouts and training camp. He signed a year ago for only $2 million, and one would have to think the Raiders would like to have him back at twice that amount.
We might have Perryman too high on this list, as he is 30 and coming off a so-so year with first-year defensive coordinator Patrick Graham in Las Vegas. But, man was Perryman good in 2021. He was the best linebacker the Raiders have had in 20 years, roaming sideline to sideline and blasting opponents. He was a first-time Pro Bowler for a Raiders team that made the playoffs and could have a similar impact on a defense that is not looking for pass coverage out of its new linebacker. Perryman was also one of the most popular players in the Raiders locker room thanks to his very positive outlook on life and his rugged play.
Ya-Sin missed six games due to knee injuries and was solid at best in the 11 that he played in. The good news for him is that he is one of the few younger cornerbacks on the market, and while the Raiders may not opt to bring him back, there will likely be a starting opportunity for him elsewhere. The Raiders were hoping that Ya-Sin could be a No. 1 corner when they traded Yannick Ngakoue for him, but he is clearly a No. 2 with good coverage skills and only two interceptions and two forced fumbles in four seasons. No. 2s still get paid, though.
Darren Waller’s injuries have given Moreau a chance to start 25 games the last two seasons and Moreau has shown some ability if not consistency. His blocking has gotten better every year, and he has averaged 32 catches for 397 yards the last two seasons. Teams might be intrigued by the 6-foot-4, 250-pound Moreau’s skill set and pay to see if he is more than a good No. 2 tight end.
Stidham took the NFL by storm when he shredded the 49ers’ top-ranked defense in Week 17 (23-for-34 for 365 yards and three TDs) after replacing the benched Derek Carr. It became quickly apparent that the Niners just didn’t have any film of Stidham, as the following week the Chiefs bottled him up pretty easily. Stidham has a very good arm and some swagger — think very poor man’s Brett Favre — and he will make big plays, good and bad. The former Patriot can run a little bit and knows Josh McDaniels’ offense well, so he has to be smart. He’s clearly one of the top 50 quarterbacks in the league, so there might be light bidding as most teams still need one of those.
Ferrell had a couple of sacks and eight QB hits as a reserve last season and can also help out setting the edge on the outside against the run. He can play outside and inside, and while he will never have the twitch of a player who you should pick fourth in a draft, Ferrell can be a role player on a good team. Or more than that on a bad team.
Eluemunor should probably be ranked higher, as he did start 17 games last season and can play both tackle and guard. But it’s hard to evaluate an offensive line that’s best claim was that it wasn’t as bad as everyone thought it would be. And before you start citing sacks-allowed stats or Pro Football Focus ratings, know that the Raiders offense was limited because of all the extra help that McDaniels gave his linemen and by how fast he had Carr get rid of the ball. Eluemunor wasn’t too bad, but he did rank third among offensive linemen in committed penalties last season with 11 for 78 yards.
Harmon started 16 games, quickly replacing former first-round pick Johnathan Abram, and he showed a nose for the ball with two interceptions, five pass breakups and some clutch tackles. His defensive teammates quickly turned to him as a leader and he did a nice job as a bridge from the locker room to the new regime. He is also 32 and gets beat deep more than you would like. He has been on four teams in four years for all the good and bad reasons just stated.
The 6-1, 328-pound Billings started 14 games and was the Raiders’ best interior run stopper. He had 18 solo tackles, three of which were for a loss. The Raiders brought in around 50 interior linemen last offseason, and Billings was the best and a bargain for $1.2 million.
Here is a breakdown of the Raiders’ top 10 unrestricted free agents, ranked in order of their value if they were to hit the open market next month. The ages listed are their age at the start of the 2023 season.
1. Josh Jacobs, RB
Age: 25We’ll never know how much Jacobs was motivated by the Raiders not picking up his fifth-year option (he says not at all), but he lost 10 pounds, didn’t miss a game and led the league in rushing with 1,653 yards (4.9 yards per carry). He also had a career-high 400 yards receiving and continued to be a solid blocker in pass protection. He has always been a tough and slippery runner, as his 267 missed tackles lead the NFL over his four seasons.
Jacobs clearly won over the new regime, but how much? Enough for Ziegler to do the very un-Patriot-like thing of giving a running back a big, long-term contract? Or will they just throw him the bone of a $10.1 million one-year franchise tag?
2. Mack Hollins, WR
Age: 29Hollins tripled his career-high with 690 yards receiving and was also a standout on special teams coverage. Not to mention being a role model for younger players with his work ethic and extra running routines at offseason workouts and training camp. He signed a year ago for only $2 million, and one would have to think the Raiders would like to have him back at twice that amount.
3. Denzel Perryman, LB
Age: 30We might have Perryman too high on this list, as he is 30 and coming off a so-so year with first-year defensive coordinator Patrick Graham in Las Vegas. But, man was Perryman good in 2021. He was the best linebacker the Raiders have had in 20 years, roaming sideline to sideline and blasting opponents. He was a first-time Pro Bowler for a Raiders team that made the playoffs and could have a similar impact on a defense that is not looking for pass coverage out of its new linebacker. Perryman was also one of the most popular players in the Raiders locker room thanks to his very positive outlook on life and his rugged play.
4. Rock Ya-Sin, CB
Age: 27Ya-Sin missed six games due to knee injuries and was solid at best in the 11 that he played in. The good news for him is that he is one of the few younger cornerbacks on the market, and while the Raiders may not opt to bring him back, there will likely be a starting opportunity for him elsewhere. The Raiders were hoping that Ya-Sin could be a No. 1 corner when they traded Yannick Ngakoue for him, but he is clearly a No. 2 with good coverage skills and only two interceptions and two forced fumbles in four seasons. No. 2s still get paid, though.
5. Foster Moreau, TE
Age: 26Darren Waller’s injuries have given Moreau a chance to start 25 games the last two seasons and Moreau has shown some ability if not consistency. His blocking has gotten better every year, and he has averaged 32 catches for 397 yards the last two seasons. Teams might be intrigued by the 6-foot-4, 250-pound Moreau’s skill set and pay to see if he is more than a good No. 2 tight end.
6. Jarrett Stidham, QB
Age: 27Stidham took the NFL by storm when he shredded the 49ers’ top-ranked defense in Week 17 (23-for-34 for 365 yards and three TDs) after replacing the benched Derek Carr. It became quickly apparent that the Niners just didn’t have any film of Stidham, as the following week the Chiefs bottled him up pretty easily. Stidham has a very good arm and some swagger — think very poor man’s Brett Favre — and he will make big plays, good and bad. The former Patriot can run a little bit and knows Josh McDaniels’ offense well, so he has to be smart. He’s clearly one of the top 50 quarterbacks in the league, so there might be light bidding as most teams still need one of those.
7. Clelin Ferrell, DE
Age: 26Ferrell had a couple of sacks and eight QB hits as a reserve last season and can also help out setting the edge on the outside against the run. He can play outside and inside, and while he will never have the twitch of a player who you should pick fourth in a draft, Ferrell can be a role player on a good team. Or more than that on a bad team.
8. Jermaine Eluemunor, OT
Age: 28Eluemunor should probably be ranked higher, as he did start 17 games last season and can play both tackle and guard. But it’s hard to evaluate an offensive line that’s best claim was that it wasn’t as bad as everyone thought it would be. And before you start citing sacks-allowed stats or Pro Football Focus ratings, know that the Raiders offense was limited because of all the extra help that McDaniels gave his linemen and by how fast he had Carr get rid of the ball. Eluemunor wasn’t too bad, but he did rank third among offensive linemen in committed penalties last season with 11 for 78 yards.
9. Duron Harmon, S
Age: 32Harmon started 16 games, quickly replacing former first-round pick Johnathan Abram, and he showed a nose for the ball with two interceptions, five pass breakups and some clutch tackles. His defensive teammates quickly turned to him as a leader and he did a nice job as a bridge from the locker room to the new regime. He is also 32 and gets beat deep more than you would like. He has been on four teams in four years for all the good and bad reasons just stated.
10. Andrew Billings, DT
Age: 28The 6-1, 328-pound Billings started 14 games and was the Raiders’ best interior run stopper. He had 18 solo tackles, three of which were for a loss. The Raiders brought in around 50 interior linemen last offseason, and Billings was the best and a bargain for $1.2 million.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Draft kings has the Raiders as -450 to get Aaron Rodgers.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Adam Shefter reporting per sources that the Raiders have given Carr permission to talk to teams that have already agreed to trade compensation.
LawFitz
Footballguy
I agree, at this point, the best case is keep drafting rookies until one hits and supplement with a stop gap vet QB. The issue I have is that they could've just worked this exact scenario with Carr as the stop gap, had they not burned his bridge. Meanwhile, they could've still secretly shopped him around for a legit too-good-to-refuse offer. They royally ****ed up the Carr transition, or so it seems right now. We'll have to see what if anything they get for him, but I'm predicting best case now is a mid-round pick and worst case a flat out release next week, with worst case, the higher probability. Hope I am wrong.
Which is nobody
massraider
Footballguy
This absolves Carr of all responsibility, and I don't see that--at all.
And 40 mill is a bit out of my price range for stopgap.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
I’m all for this too.
Unless we can somehow shore up the d and get Timothy Leary on the cheap.
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