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3-4 vs. 4-3 (1 Viewer)

elcohiba

We're for puppies
TSN this week (Pompei) lists the following teams on/going to/leaving the 3-4.

Keeping it - Browns, Chargers, Cowboys, 49ers, Patriots and Steelers.

Switching to it Dolphins Jets

Getting Rid Texans

And so if you're in the AFC East and playing a few other of the above you'll be seeing a lot of 3-4.

Is this something to consider fantasy wise and if so comments on impact are appreciated. I guess having the right players to pull it off is a consideration. How do you beat a 3-4?

 
TSN this week (Pompei) lists the following teams on/going to/leaving the 3-4.

Keeping it - Browns, Chargers, Cowboys, 49ers, Patriots and Steelers.

Switching to it Dolphins Jets

Getting Rid Texans

And so if you're in the AFC East and playing a few other of the above you'll be seeing a lot of 3-4.

Is this something to consider fantasy wise and if so comments on impact are appreciated. I guess having the right players to pull it off is a consideration. How do you beat a 3-4?
IBTM! (Theres an IDP forum for Qs like this)I'm not going to pretend to know everything about scheme impacts on IDPs, but I think the #1 impact on IDPs is the LB position.

MLBs (in 4/3s) tend to get more tackles since theyre mostly the only one manning the middle of the field.

In 3/4s since there are two ILBs at almost all times, then it is harder for one of the two to put up top 5 LB numbers (fantasy-wise).

Pats and Steelers are a good example of this. Very talented LBs, but neither team had a top 10 LB last year.

Donnie Edwards and Andra Davis are recent exceptions.

Those switching schemes this year...

Dolphins... should be intesting... Jason Taylor may see time at OLB.

Jets... Vilma's numbers should go down, but he could be like an Andra Davis.

Houston... Their ILBs were awful last year, and they don't even have a set-in-stone MLB.

 
3-4

Three DL's with one huge DT who mainly has run stopping responsibility. Also the two DE's need to be larger (~300 lbs) and about the size of 4-3 DT's. Their job is to stop the run and occupy two OL on the pass rush to allow the OLB's to get to the QB.

The two OLB's are the pass rushers in the 3-4 and are usually 'tweeners - they probably played 4-3 DE in college but are too small to play DE in the NFL and too big to play 4-3 LB. They need to have coverage ability since they won't be rushing on every play. They have to be big enough though to fight through offensive linemen since they will have to be able to beat someone bigger to get the the QB. The 3-4 generally fails for teams when they use OLB's who are too small to take on offensive linemen.

The ILB's are smaller (~230) and are similar to run-stuffing safeties. They don't have as much pass rush responsibility as the OLB's and have to be able to tackle well and go into coverage.

As you can see, the 3-4 is focused on stopping the run - there are only two players who main responsibility is rushing the QB - the OLB's. The key to the 3-4's pass rush is confusing the offense and not letting them know which side the OLB rush is coming from. The 4-3 is predictable since the offense knows where the pressure will be coming from on most plays. They can send blitzes, but it's not as unpredictable as the 3-4. The 4-3 is an advantage for teams with a lot of talent in the front seven since they matchup well against the offense.

The way to beat the 3-4 is to stop the OLB rush. If a team can do that then the QB will have plenty of time to find an open receiver. Another way to exploit the 3-4 is to have a TE too quick for the OLB to cover and too big for the ILB's.

 
3-4

Three DL's with one huge DT who mainly has run stopping responsibility. Also the two DE's need to be larger (~300 lbs) and about the size of 4-3 DT's. Their job is to stop the run and occupy two OL on the pass rush to allow the OLB's to get to the QB.

The two OLB's are the pass rushers in the 3-4 and are usually 'tweeners - they probably played 4-3 DE in college but are too small to play DE in the NFL and too big to play 4-3 LB. They need to have coverage ability since they won't be rushing on every play. They have to be big enough though to fight through offensive linemen since they will have to be able to beat someone bigger to get the the QB. The 3-4 generally fails for teams when they use OLB's who are too small to take on offensive linemen.

The ILB's are smaller (~230) and are similar to run-stuffing safeties. They don't have as much pass rush responsibility as the OLB's and have to be able to tackle well and go into coverage.

As you can see, the 3-4 is focused on stopping the run - there are only two players who main responsibility is rushing the QB - the OLB's. The key to the 3-4's pass rush is confusing the offense and not letting them know which side the OLB rush is coming from. The 4-3 is predictable since the offense knows where the pressure will be coming from on most plays. They can send blitzes, but it's not as unpredictable as the 3-4. The 4-3 is an advantage for teams with a lot of talent in the front seven since they matchup well against the offense.

The way to beat the 3-4 is to stop the OLB rush. If a team can do that then the QB will have plenty of time to find an open receiver. Another way to exploit the 3-4 is to have a TE too quick for the OLB to cover and too big for the ILB's.
:goodposting: Outstanding explanation.
 
Just a comment on CLE since Andra Davis was mentioned. IIRC the Browns ran a hybrid system last year (IIRC Crennel has mentioned that oonly now does he have the OLBs to run the 3-4)- which might mean that Andra Davis' tackle numbers will got down - as might Orpheus Roye's sack numbers

 
3-4

Three DL's with one huge DT who mainly has run stopping responsibility. Also the two DE's need to be larger (~300 lbs) and about the size of 4-3 DT's. Their job is to stop the run and occupy two OL on the pass rush to allow the OLB's to get to the QB.

The two OLB's are the pass rushers in the 3-4 and are usually 'tweeners - they probably played 4-3 DE in college but are too small to play DE in the NFL and too big to play 4-3 LB. They need to have coverage ability since they won't be rushing on every play. They have to be big enough though to fight through offensive linemen since they will have to be able to beat someone bigger to get the the QB. The 3-4 generally fails for teams when they use OLB's who are too small to take on offensive linemen.

The ILB's are smaller (~230) and are similar to run-stuffing safeties. They don't have as much pass rush responsibility as the OLB's and have to be able to tackle well and go into coverage.

As you can see, the 3-4 is focused on stopping the run - there are only two players who main responsibility is rushing the QB - the OLB's. The key to the 3-4's pass rush is confusing the offense and not letting them know which side the OLB rush is coming from. The 4-3 is predictable since the offense knows where the pressure will be coming from on most plays. They can send blitzes, but it's not as unpredictable as the 3-4. The 4-3 is an advantage for teams with a lot of talent in the front seven since they matchup well against the offense.

The way to beat the 3-4 is to stop the OLB rush. If a team can do that then the QB will have plenty of time to find an open receiver. Another way to exploit the 3-4 is to have a TE too quick for the OLB to cover and too big for the ILB's.
Good job.The 3-4 also allows a team more roster flexibility, as you have players on defense that can multiple positions depending on down and distance; gives the team greater cap relief, as a 3-4 DE or LB is MUCH cheaper to come by versus a very good and traditional 4-3 DE; and creates more space to house developmental players on offense.

Look at the Steelers and Pats for examples.

 
3-4

Three DL's with one huge DT who mainly has run stopping responsibility. Also the two DE's need to be larger (~300 lbs) and about the size of 4-3 DT's. Their job is to stop the run and occupy two OL on the pass rush to allow the OLB's to get to the QB.

The two OLB's are the pass rushers in the 3-4 and are usually 'tweeners - they probably played 4-3 DE in college but are too small to play DE in the NFL and too big to play 4-3 LB. They need to have coverage ability since they won't be rushing on every play. They have to be big enough though to fight through offensive linemen since they will have to be able to beat someone bigger to get the the QB. The 3-4 generally fails for teams when they use OLB's who are too small to take on offensive linemen.

The ILB's are smaller (~230) and are similar to run-stuffing safeties. They don't have as much pass rush responsibility as the OLB's and have to be able to tackle well and go into coverage.

As you can see, the 3-4 is focused on stopping the run - there are only two players who main responsibility is rushing the QB - the OLB's. The key to the 3-4's pass rush is confusing the offense and not letting them know which side the OLB rush is coming from. The 4-3 is predictable since the offense knows where the pressure will be coming from on most plays. They can send blitzes, but it's not as unpredictable as the 3-4. The 4-3 is an advantage for teams with a lot of talent in the front seven since they matchup well against the offense.

The way to beat the 3-4 is to stop the OLB rush. If a team can do that then the QB will have plenty of time to find an open receiver. Another way to exploit the 3-4 is to have a TE too quick for the OLB to cover and too big for the ILB's.
:goodposting: Explained very well.

The thing that really made the light go on my head was when someone told me to think of the 3-4 more like a 5-2. The OLBs may be standing up, but they play more like ends than linebackers.

 
The switch from 3-4 to 4-3 is not as easy as it sounds. There are players(explained well in post above) that would really struggle in a different scheme. The Browns had to play Kenard Lang at LB last year and he wasn't very good at it. Jason Taylor(mentioned above) is an even better athlete but I wonder if he can handle LB. Similarly not all DTs can handle being a NT in a 3-4.

It takes some player moves or drafts to get the right type of players and depth. Often times these switches lack depth and you see both alignments used.

BB wants to use both and force the opposing O to plan for a more complex D. I'm sure his buddies Saban and Crennel would like to be at that point someday with the right players/depth

 
As you can see, the 3-4 is focused on stopping the run
I would dispute this. the 3-4 is very susceptible to the run simply because the big guys on offense out number the big guys on defense by a margin of 5-3. Objectively on offense, a team is looking for a guard\tackle versus a linebacker matchup.Personnel ultimately dictates success. Comparing the Ravens with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa at defensive tackle in their 4-3 (2000) to the Colts 4-3 personnel is not ultimately fair. Likewise, comparing the Steelers' (2006) 3-4 defense to that of the Broncos (late 80s, early 90s) bend but don't break 3-4 defense is ultimately not fair either.

In addition, many fans confuss the 3-4 and the zone blitz as being a homogeneous creation when in actuality the zone blitz is equally effective in a 4-3 or a 3-4.

What do you think would be more suprising to a quarterback? A zone blitz from a team playing a 3-4 or a zone blitz from a team playing a 4-3?

I do want to say the body of the cstu's post (overall) was outstanding.

 
As you can see, the 3-4 is focused on stopping the run
I would dispute this. the 3-4 is very susceptible to the run simply because the big guys on offense out number the big guys on defense by a margin of 5-3. Objectively on offense, a team is looking for a guard\tackle versus a linebacker matchup.Personnel ultimately dictates success. Comparing the Ravens with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa at defensive tackle in their 4-3 (2000) to the Colts 4-3 personnel is not ultimately fair. Likewise, comparing the Steelers' (2006) 3-4 defense to that of the Broncos (late 80s, early 90s) bend but don't break 3-4 defense is ultimately not fair either.

In addition, many fans confuss the 3-4 and the zone blitz as being a homogeneous creation when in actuality the zone blitz is equally effective in a 4-3 or a 3-4.

What do you think would be more suprising to a quarterback? A zone blitz from a team playing a 3-4 or a zone blitz from a team playing a 4-3?

I do want to say the body of the cstu's post (overall) was outstanding.
I completely agree personnel being key. If you look at the YPR allowed by the 3-4 teams there is a big difference between the ones that has the players to run it and the ones that don't (or at least were new to it). 4-3 teams with stud DT's and a MLB are going to be tough against the run. I view the 3-4 as a way for teams with lesser talent to be tough defensively because the DE's do not need to be elite talents and good 3-4 ILB's are easier to find than good MLB's. The key for a 3-4 team is the NT and OLB's, with the NT being the toughest position to find. It's the heart of all three of the top 3-4 run defenses - Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, and Vince Wilfork.

As far a which zone blitz is more surprising to a QB, obviously the 4-3 more than the 3-4 since a blitz is too be expected in the 3-4 on most plays. However, the 3-4 allows many more different combinations of blitzes than the 4-3.

Yards per rush allowed ranking of the 3-4 teams last year:

Steelers - #1

Chargers - #2

Patriots - #4

49ers - #11

Cowboys - #24

Browns - #25

Texans - #30

 
A 4-3 is more about lining up and beating the guy in front of you. There is little deception. In the 4-3, the linebackers tend to be smaller and faster. They tend to not have to take on blocks very much as the 4 linemen take up the 5 offensive linemen. The beast linemen in this system have to be effective in both the run and pass. They also have to do this for 60-70 snaps a game. Getting DE's, in particular, who have the size to play run defense effective and the speed to passrush, can be challenge. Thats why guys like Peppers, and Mario Williams are in such high regard.

It should also be noted that many 4-3's use a 1-gap scheme wherein each defender is responsible for only 1 gap. Say, a DT will be responsible for the C-LG gap. So at the snap, they immediately charge that gap. With 4 linemen and 3 LBs, they each take a gap.

A 3-4 tends to be more diversified. Defenders are much closer in size to one another, with the NT being the exception. All of the linebackers in a 3-4 tend to be over 250 and capable of fighting olinemen. Not for 70 snaps, but perhaps for 30 snaps a game. With so many smilarly sized guys, you can disguise a lot of what you're doing on each play. Which of the 4 LBs is going to blitz? Will any or all of them come? In what gaps?

The linemen in Parcells' and Belichek's 3-4 play more of a 2-gap scheme. For example, the NT will play the C headup and be responsible for both C-G gaps. Some other 3-4 schemes will slant their D-linemen and they will only be 1-gap teams.

You will also occasionally see 3-4 teams line up more like a 5-2, particularly on running downs. This gets more guys on the LOS for these plays.

 
The 3-4 is a TWO GAP SYSTEM! In this system the Nose Tackle is responsible for both A Gaps on his left and right. Which means he needs to front up the Center, read the play and then react; or he can occupy two blockers while trying to make the play which would allow the ILB to make the play. Each of the ends is Head up over the Offensive Tackles, they too will square up read the play and react to the play. The Ends are responsible for the B and C Gaps. The OLB'ers depending on personel(TE's, WR's and such) they will either be contain or head up on the tight end. But as far as personel wise, the 3-4 needs to have a big NT and 2 bigger ends that can read and react.

The 4-3 is a one gap system....that is the main difference guys. The 4-3 doesn't have to have certain big DT's(Think the Lions last year with Shaun Rodgers and Dan Wilkinson) or small DT's(think the bears with Tommie Harris and Ian Scott) or fast rush ends(Freeney and Mathis) or bigger stronger ends(strahan and osyimahara). In this system the D-lineman are responsible for only one gap and can more be and athlete instead of having to read. The Nose is in a 1 technique and the DT is in a 3 and the DE's are in a 7 or 9 depending on where the TE is at.

Now with both of these systems, I just laid out the base techniques. They can slant and stunt and blitz off of them, which would cause different techniques to be played.

Benifits of the 3-4=Blitzing. The other team doesn't know which LB is going to blitz and that can cause more disruption. Also, it is getting more popular now because it helps defeat the pass because there are more athletes on the field(LB's) than lineman.

Benifits of the 4-3=Stopping the run. It is easier to stop the run with it and also to find personel. It is difficult to find players that can fit the mold of the 3-4(my opinion).

How do you defeat the 3-4? Run it right up the middle because their is less "beef" there. Passing I would run slants or crossing patterns into the natural gaps between the Linebackers.

How do you defeat the 4-3? Run east and west. If you use the Denver Zone Blocking scheme for example and leave the backside end unblocked there will be openings because he cannot make it that far. Then when he almost does, bootleg rollout for Jake Plummer. Get the lineman moving east and west because they don't like to do it as much as the Linebackers in a 3-4 would.

So which scheme to run? The right answer is.....run whatever your personel suites it best. If you have the lineman to run a 4-3 then do it. If you have an excess of good LB'ers than run the 3-4.

 
The 4-3 is NOT a one gap system all the time. The slant nose or 1T often has a two gap responsabilty. The 3T is a one gap tackle spot. The Jets ran their 4-3 with the slant nose tackle almost always having a two gap responsabilty.

 
The 4-3 is NOT a one gap system all the time. The slant nose or 1T often has a two gap responsabilty. The 3T is a one gap tackle spot. The Jets ran their 4-3 with the slant nose tackle almost always having a two gap responsabilty.
I didn't say that the 4-3 is a one gap system all the time. Instead, I described the base defenses and then after that said that their are variations with slants,stunts and blitzes. I would like to know how the Nose would play 2 gaps by the way? The only way is if he can cross the centers face into the opposite A gap and I don't see that happening too often and if he does then he cannot play the opposite A gap in which he came from.

 
The 4-3 is NOT a one gap system all the time. The slant nose or 1T often has a two gap responsabilty. The 3T is a one gap tackle spot. The Jets ran their 4-3 with the slant nose tackle almost always having a two gap responsabilty.
I didn't say that the 4-3 is a one gap system all the time. Instead, I described the base defenses and then after that said that their are variations with slants,stunts and blitzes. I would like to know how the Nose would play 2 gaps by the way? The only way is if he can cross the centers face into the opposite A gap and I don't see that happening too often and if he does then he cannot play the opposite A gap in which he came from.
Basically, the slant nose is supposed to engage both the center and guard. So, while it's called a two gap, it's slightly different. He is supposed to hold ground, and keep the center and guard off the MLB. The 3T is supposed to split the guard and T on the other side, and penetrate on every defensive play. That is suppossed to leave the DE one on one with the T, and make the G take on the the 3T attempting to seal off the 3 gap. The slant nose wants to engage the C, keeping him off not just the MLB, but off the 3T as well. The other DE will then rush inside or out, with a LB coming up to fill the open gap, either outside if the DE goes inside, or inside if the DE takes an outside persuit. Sometimes the Safety will come up to fill, while the LB might drop into coverage or outside responsibilty. The MLB is then left to make the tackle, as the whole scheme is designed to funnel the RB into him, usually running to the gap between the guard and T. They call it a two gap because the slant nose is supposed to hold ground, and prevent the RB from having a clear opening on either side of the center. And yeah, there are variations, but the slant nose is considered a two gap job. If he lines up on the guard's nose, then he's a one gap.

The bottom line though, to me at least, is that there are fewer and fewer D schemes that can be accurately characterised anymore. More and more teams, whether out of a base 3-4 or base 4-3 use so many variations now, it's hard to label any of them anymore. Gap assignments are changed at the line by the MLB (or ILB) , so often. SF says that Lawson will play OLB, but go into a stance in passing situations as a rush DE. The influx of all these "hybrid" players like Merriman, Lawson and even Hali at KC, who reportedly will play on the inside at tackle on passing downs has my head spinning. No way Hali is going to line up at slant nose tackle, but using a traditional slant nose is Edward's base scheme.

Even NE used the 4-3 last year more than people realise. Mangini is making all of his LB's learn all 4 3-4 LB positions. Bryan Thomas I'm sure will play as much DE as he does OLB. Traditional defenses are disappearing..... it's all about flexability and being unpredictable now.

 
I understand what you are saying and its not a 2 GAP....

..N

G C

Tell me how that nose is going to play both A Gaps and hold up the Guard? U know what I mean....

I know his role of occupying blockers(which is illegal if he holds onto them anymore) and the purpose of which it serves and how the Linebackers can then make the tackle.

 
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The best benefit I have seen to the 3-4 in the NFL is in the $ it costs to run it. A lot of 'tweeners can cost less and give you more versatility but is not easy to do even for the teams (Pitt and N.E.) that are good at it. Scouting is a biaach.

For the original poster, I think what he was looking for was that if you have teams switching to a 3-4, will it be tougher on the RBs in that division? I say go get R.Brown, Maroney and McGahee as the transition to a 3-4 is almost never seamless and usually met with less success than the 4-3 you had to begin with 'cause unlike college, you can't just stick in the best atheletes and get good results with the 3-4.

 
I understand what you are saying and its not a 2 GAP....

..N

G C

Tell me how that nose is going to play both A Gaps and hold up the Guard? U know what I mean....
I believe what he is saying is the NG has the responsibility of two gaps, although he cannot physically be in both gaps at the same time.The same concept of a linebacker having run support and the pass coverage on the same play; the linebacker cannot physically be in both places at the same time, yet the linebacker still has both responsibilities. He has the responsibility to read and react, much like a NG having a responsibility for two gaps.

 
BB wants to use both and force the opposing O to plan for a more complex D. I'm sure his buddies Saban and Crennel would like to be at that point someday with the right players/depth
Using both. Has this been done yet? I guess it would have to be by one of the established 3-4 teams above.This is turning out as I had hoped. Thanks all.

 
This might explain what I mean a little bit better:

Gaps and Techniques

In the last few years, it has become common to refer to some defensive linemen as “3-technique tackles.” The term is usually thrown around without too much explanation, often by someone who might not know what he is talking about.

The “technique” being referred to actually specifies a location on the field and the responsibility that goes with that particular location. If a defensive lineman shifts a few feet to the left or right in relation to the offensive line, his duties (and the skills needed to perform them well) change accordingly.

The various field locations are numbered. These numbers are more-or-less universal: everyone from your local high school coach up to Tony Dungy uses the same numbers:

0-Technique: The defender lines up face-to-face with the center.

1-Technique: The defender lines up on the center’s outside shoulder.

2-Technique: The defender lines up on the guard’s inside shoulder.

3-Technique: The defender lines up on the guard’s outside shoulder, between the guard and the tackle.

4-Technique: The defender lines up on the tackle’s inside shoulder, though often coaches want 4-technique linemen face-to-face with an offensive tackle.

5-Technique: The defender lines up on the tackle’s outside shoulder.

6-Technique: The defender lines up on the tight end’s inside shoulder or (if there is no tight end) about 1.5 yards wide of the tackle.

The numbers break down a little at this point; different coaches will refer to the 7, 8, and 9 techniques in different ways, usually denoting linemen playing anywhere from the tight end’s outside shoulder to a yard or two wide of the offensive line. The higher numbers also change depending on whether the player in question is a tackle or end.

Stick a zero on the end of any of these numbers, and they can be used to refer to the locations of linebackers. So a linebacker in 50-technique is off the line of scrimmage, positioned between a tackle and a tight end on the tackle’s outside shoulder.

A 3-technique tackle, therefore, is one who usually lines up between the guard and tackle, with all privileges, rights, and responsibilities associated with the position. Each technique comes with a set of reads and keys, specific to the defensive system, the offensive formation, and the down-and-distance situation. In most systems, on most plays, a tackle lined up in 3-technique is supposed to shoot the gap immediately; in a 4-technique, one step to the right or left, his job might be to bottle up the offensive tackle so a linebacker can shoot the gap. In the 2-gap, tackles are often told to “draw responsibility” from two blockers, the football equivalent of “eating space” in basketball.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/print/2704/

In the Jets' base 4-3 last year, the slant nose tackle lined up on the center's left shoulder, making him a 1 techique. He was supposed to hold ground and keep both gaps on either side of the center clogged, while at the same time trying to keep the LG engaged. This is why the SNT is considered to be a two gap assignment in Herm Edwards' Jets defensive scheme, although, as the article says, this can change based on the defensive play call.

The idea behind any two gap scheme is that the defense WANTS a given player to get double teamed.... eating up two blockers. He has to hold ground, and once he reads the play, either attmept to tackle the ball carrier, or pass rush, while staying in his lane. When a slant nose tackle does this effectively, the MLB is unblocked, and the scheme is designed for him to make the tackle.... again, most of the time. Teams may bring Safeties up, drop the MLB back, etc in a given play call.

Typically 1 gap schemes, like a traditional 3T, are supposed to shoot their gap, penetrate regardless of the offensive play call, and get into the backfield and disrupt the play.

 
Getting Rid Texans
I don't know why I keep finding this so dang funny. Caserly comes on TV and preaches to us all about how yo need to pressure Manning and beat the Colts.... blah blah blah. Yet he goes from the most effective scheme in beating Manning and the Colts back to the 4-3. :confused:
 
Getting Rid  Texans
I don't know why I keep finding this so dang funny. Caserly comes on TV and preaches to us all about how yo need to pressure Manning and beat the Colts.... blah blah blah. Yet he goes from the most effective scheme in beating Manning and the Colts back to the 4-3. :confused:
I think it is often refered as square pegs - round holes
 
This might explain what I mean a little bit better:

Gaps and Techniques

In the last few years, it has become common to refer to some defensive linemen as “3-technique tackles.” The term is usually thrown around without too much explanation, often by someone who might not know what he is talking about.

The “technique” being referred to actually specifies a location on the field and the responsibility that goes with that particular location. If a defensive lineman shifts a few feet to the left or right in relation to the offensive line, his duties (and the skills needed to perform them well) change accordingly.

The various field locations are numbered. These numbers are more-or-less universal: everyone from your local high school coach up to Tony Dungy uses the same numbers:

0-Technique: The defender lines up face-to-face with the center.

1-Technique: The defender lines up on the center’s outside shoulder.

2-Technique: The defender lines up on the guard’s inside shoulder.

3-Technique: The defender lines up on the guard’s outside shoulder, between the guard and the tackle.

4-Technique: The defender lines up on the tackle’s inside shoulder, though often coaches want 4-technique linemen face-to-face with an offensive tackle.

5-Technique: The defender lines up on the tackle’s outside shoulder.

6-Technique: The defender lines up on the tight end’s inside shoulder or (if there is no tight end) about 1.5 yards wide of the tackle.

The numbers break down a little at this point; different coaches will refer to the 7, 8, and 9 techniques in different ways, usually denoting linemen playing anywhere from the tight end’s outside shoulder to a yard or two wide of the offensive line. The higher numbers also change depending on whether the player in question is a tackle or end.

Stick a zero on the end of any of these numbers, and they can be used to refer to the locations of linebackers. So a linebacker in 50-technique is off the line of scrimmage, positioned between a tackle and a tight end on the tackle’s outside shoulder.

A 3-technique tackle, therefore, is one who usually lines up between the guard and tackle, with all privileges, rights, and responsibilities associated with the position. Each technique comes with a set of reads and keys, specific to the defensive system, the offensive formation, and the down-and-distance situation. In most systems, on most plays, a tackle lined up in 3-technique is supposed to shoot the gap immediately; in a 4-technique, one step to the right or left, his job might be to bottle up the offensive tackle so a linebacker can shoot the gap. In the 2-gap, tackles are often told to “draw responsibility” from two blockers, the football equivalent of “eating space” in basketball.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/print/2704/

In the Jets' base 4-3 last year, the slant nose tackle lined up on the center's left shoulder, making him a 1 techique. He was supposed to hold ground and keep both gaps on either side of the center clogged, while at the same time trying to keep the LG engaged. This is why the SNT is considered to be a two gap assignment in Herm Edwards' Jets defensive scheme, although, as the article says, this can change based on the defensive play call.

The idea behind any two gap scheme is that the defense WANTS a given player to get double teamed.... eating up two blockers. He has to hold ground, and once he reads the play, either attmept to tackle the ball carrier, or pass rush, while staying in his lane. When a slant nose tackle does this effectively, the MLB is unblocked, and the scheme is designed for him to make the tackle.... again, most of the time. Teams may bring Safeties up, drop the MLB back, etc in a given play call.

Typically 1 gap schemes, like a traditional 3T, are supposed to shoot their gap, penetrate regardless of the offensive play call, and get into the backfield and disrupt the play.
haha while that is a very good explaination of techniques I knew all of that already....you should've known from my description that I know more than the average fan or wannabe expert. But I think that you can agree to disagree with me in this point. We have different definitions of a TWO Gap Player.

My definition is for him to square up, play both gaps, read the play, then react (Rip through the blocker), and make a tackle.

Yours is more occupy if possible two blockers to allow the Lb'ers to flow freely and make the plays.

I am not saying D-lineman don't get double teamed....but more or less its not a pure double team....they are always tryin to work to a Linebacker and if they get caught up and don't get him its a bonus.

But see Ray Lewis was whining because they couldn't keep the blockers off of him in the 3-4(two gap) and now they are switching to a 4-3.

 
This might explain what I mean a little bit better:

Gaps and Techniques

In the last few years, it has become common to refer to some defensive linemen as “3-technique tackles.” The term is usually thrown around without too much explanation, often by someone who might not know what he is talking about.

The “technique” being referred to actually specifies a location on the field and the responsibility that goes with that particular location. If a defensive lineman shifts a few feet to the left or right in relation to the offensive line, his duties (and the skills needed to perform them well) change accordingly.

The various field locations are numbered. These numbers are more-or-less universal: everyone from your local high school coach up to Tony Dungy uses the same numbers:

0-Technique: The defender lines up face-to-face with the center.

1-Technique: The defender lines up on the center’s outside shoulder.

2-Technique: The defender lines up on the guard’s inside shoulder.

3-Technique: The defender lines up on the guard’s outside shoulder, between the guard and the tackle.

4-Technique: The defender lines up on the tackle’s inside shoulder, though often coaches want 4-technique linemen face-to-face with an offensive tackle.

5-Technique: The defender lines up on the tackle’s outside shoulder.

6-Technique: The defender lines up on the tight end’s inside shoulder or (if there is no tight end) about 1.5 yards wide of the tackle.

The numbers break down a little at this point; different coaches will refer to the 7, 8, and 9 techniques in different ways, usually denoting linemen playing anywhere from the tight end’s outside shoulder to a yard or two wide of the offensive line. The higher numbers also change depending on whether the player in question is a tackle or end.

Stick a zero on the end of any of these numbers, and they can be used to refer to the locations of linebackers. So a linebacker in 50-technique is off the line of scrimmage, positioned between a tackle and a tight end on the tackle’s outside shoulder.

A 3-technique tackle, therefore, is one who usually lines up between the guard and tackle, with all privileges, rights, and responsibilities associated with the position. Each technique comes with a set of reads and keys, specific to the defensive system, the offensive formation, and the down-and-distance situation. In most systems, on most plays, a tackle lined up in 3-technique is supposed to shoot the gap immediately; in a 4-technique, one step to the right or left, his job might be to bottle up the offensive tackle so a linebacker can shoot the gap. In the 2-gap, tackles are often told to “draw responsibility” from two blockers, the football equivalent of “eating space” in basketball.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/print/2704/

In the Jets' base 4-3 last year, the slant nose tackle lined up on the center's left shoulder, making him a 1 techique. He was supposed to hold ground and keep both gaps on either side of the center clogged, while at the same time trying to keep the LG engaged. This is why the SNT is considered to be a two gap assignment in Herm Edwards' Jets defensive scheme, although, as the article says, this can change based on the defensive play call.

The idea behind any two gap scheme is that the defense WANTS a given player to get double teamed.... eating up two blockers. He has to hold ground, and once he reads the play, either attmept to tackle the ball carrier, or pass rush, while staying in his lane. When a slant nose tackle does this effectively, the MLB is unblocked, and the scheme is designed for him to make the tackle.... again, most of the time. Teams may bring Safeties up, drop the MLB back, etc in a given play call.

Typically 1 gap schemes, like a traditional 3T, are supposed to shoot their gap, penetrate regardless of the offensive play call, and get into the backfield and disrupt the play.
haha while that is a very good explaination of techniques I knew all of that already....you should've known from my description that I know more than the average fan or wannabe expert. But I think that you can agree to disagree with me in this point. We have different definitions of a TWO Gap Player.

My definition is for him to square up, play both gaps, read the play, then react (Rip through the blocker), and make a tackle.

Yours is more occupy if possible two blockers to allow the Lb'ers to flow freely and make the plays.

I am not saying D-lineman don't get double teamed....but more or less its not a pure double team....they are always tryin to work to a Linebacker and if they get caught up and don't get him its a bonus.

But see Ray Lewis was whining because they couldn't keep the blockers off of him in the 3-4(two gap) and now they are switching to a 4-3.
I don't really get the "haha" comment, but I posted that as much for anyone interested in it, not necessarilly in any attempt to try to "educate" you. I'll just say that the Jets coaching staff referred to their slant nose tackle as a two gap assignment in their base 4-3. They further described it by saying the slant nose is supposed to invite a double team from the C and LG, and try to engage both of them. I'll stick with that definition. And yes, the slant nose in that defense was assigned both gaps on either side of the center. In contrast, I define a one gap player as one who simply attempts to penetrate the one gap right off the snap.

I think what we can agree on, outside of what could be just a semantics difference is that 2 gap D linemen hold ground and read before reacting while 1 gap players attack and penetrate off the snap. After that, it becomes a more specific scheme related discussion.

PS: The point I was initially making was that the 4-3 is NOT a one gap system by definition. It isn't, and that is a fact. There are some 4-3 one gap systems, but that is scheme speficic, using a 4-3 does not in any way preclude the use of some two gap elements, such as the Jets D was last year. In fact, Reed was playing the position of SNT last year like a one gap player.... and he and Vilma got into a fist fight over it.... sometime around week 3 or 4. He was penetrating the C-LG gap, and Vilma was getting blocked on every play.

 
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4-3 or 3-4 is not always different. If you want to call Willie McGinnest (275 pounds) a linebacker then it is 3-4. If you call him a DE then it is a 4-3. He is a lot bigger than Freeney. Nowadays, it is fairly common to see 4-3 DEs drop back into coverage, and to see the OLB rush the passer.

 
4-3 or 3-4 is not always different. If you want to call Willie McGinnest (275 pounds) a linebacker then it is 3-4. If you call him a DE then it is a 4-3. He is a lot bigger than Freeney. Nowadays, it is fairly common to see 4-3 DEs drop back into coverage, and to see the OLB rush the passer.
McGinest would have a hard time playing 3-4 DE since he'd get eaten up by the OL. Freeney could also play 3-4 OLB and would probably do very well.I do get what you're saying though about hybrid defenses though.

 
4-3 or 3-4 is not always different. If you want to call Willie McGinnest (275 pounds) a linebacker then it is 3-4. If you call him a DE then it is a 4-3. He is a lot bigger than Freeney. Nowadays, it is fairly common to see 4-3 DEs drop back into coverage, and to see the OLB rush the passer.
:goodposting: If you didn't see the starting lineup at the beginning of the game, the Patriots could be perceived as a 4-3 with McGinest playing the role of an outside rushing defensive end who could drop into coverage like other 4-3 teams.

 

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