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4th Round Rookie WR Gold Mine (Boyce, Harper, Patton) (1 Viewer)

Boyce and Patton were my top two WRs in this class with Wheaton and Hopkins. I'm taking a few long shots on Patton in redrafts after the AJ Jenkins trade. 9ers might need him more than everyone thinks.

 
ESPN Boston says Josh Boyce "seems to be a notch below" Aaron Dobson in terms of his place within in the offense.

 
My 4th round might be a bit deeper than most due to 16 teams in my league, but I just picked up Mark Harrison at 4.08 and Charles Johnson at 4.11, both as long term guys obviously. Not much left for WRs except Corey Fuller, Kenny Stills, and Chris Harper, then a whole tier of guys below that.
Probably should have expanded this beyond the 4th to 2nd or 3rd to 6th-7th rounders, or just rookie WRs period.

This year only, 2nd round on:

Stills, 5th round, Saints, might end up the best of the bunch.

Patton might have a good year as well.

 
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Not looking so hot for these guys at the moment. Patton did a catch a TD from Kaepernick last game, but the other two have been quiet in the preseason.

I still think Boyce will develop into a solid contributor in time. He probably never had WR1 ability in the first place (he's not that tall and he was more "good" than "great" in college), but with his athletic traits it will be hard for him to fail if he has even halfway decent receiving skills, which I think he does. Whatever the depth chart says, I think he'll get opportunities this year. The emergence of Thompkins from left field pretty much eliminates the possibility of a rookie breakout, but I think you'll see some catches and maybe a few big plays.

Harper is in a more precarious situation. Harvin, Rice, Tate, and Baldwin are ahead of him. So are Jermaine Kearse and Stephen Williams. Some people think he'll be cut. I'm not so sure. Harvin is out for a while. That frees up an extra spot if they want 6 healthy WRs. They'll have to weigh the short term value of Kearse/Williams against the long term potential of Harper. Harper hasn't flashed much in the preseason, but he also hasn't been targeted often despite playing a lot of snaps. I suspect we'll see him early and often tonight. I think as long as he makes the 53, there will be cause to remain optimistic. If Seattle cuts him loose, his value will plummet, even though he'd probably get scooped up by someone. You'd hope that he's been impressive enough in practices that Seattle doesn't want to risk losing him. We'll find out soon.

 
It seems like he will get the axe. Too bad. I liked his potential there.

I'm surprised that he's dropping passes. He seemed to have really good hands. Carroll has praised him in that department. I don't recall him dropping anything in the game highlights, Senior Bowl practices, or combine drills that I watched. He struggled with separation at times, but once he got his mitts on the ball it was his. Odd way for him to go out if he does indeed get cut.

 
EBF said:
It seems like he will get the axe. Too bad. I liked his potential there.

I'm surprised that he's dropping passes. He seemed to have really good hands. Carroll has praised him in that department. I don't recall him dropping anything in the game highlights, Senior Bowl practices, or combine drills that I watched. He struggled with separation at times, but once he got his mitts on the ball it was his. Odd way for him to go out if he does indeed get cut.
Too soon to drop him?

 
EBF said:
It seems like he will get the axe. Too bad. I liked his potential there.

I'm surprised that he's dropping passes. He seemed to have really good hands. Carroll has praised him in that department. I don't recall him dropping anything in the game highlights, Senior Bowl practices, or combine drills that I watched. He struggled with separation at times, but once he got his mitts on the ball it was his. Odd way for him to go out if he does indeed get cut.
Too soon to drop him?
If possible, I'd wait to see the cuts this weekend. There's still a chance that Seattle keeps him.

If he makes the 53, I'll probably keep him in all of my leagues. If he gets cut, I'll probably drop him in my shallow leagues.

I do think he'll be on somebody's payroll regardless, but it's a big negative if the Hawks are willing to cut him loose after seeing him up close in 30+ practices.

 
Chalk one up for the numbers...

Chris Harper has the size and speed of a RB. Unfortunately he has the receiving measure of a RB as well and is extremely unlikely to make an impact as a WR as a result. Despite this limitation, based on his comparables there's a role in the NFL for players with his overall profile -- Jason Avant and Josh Morgan have both stuck around for several years as block-first WRs.
Someone will pick him up IMO. With the Seahawks depth they don't have the luxury of carrying a blocking WR. I think other teams will.

 
Chalk one up for the numbers...

Chris Harper has the size and speed of a RB. Unfortunately he has the receiving measure of a RB as well and is extremely unlikely to make an impact as a WR as a result. Despite this limitation, based on his comparables there's a role in the NFL for players with his overall profile -- Jason Avant and Josh Morgan have both stuck around for several years as block-first WRs.
Someone will pick him up IMO. With the Seahawks depth they don't have the luxury of carrying a blocking WR. I think other teams will.
Hope the Chargers do.

 
Harper caught everything at KState. I suspect some team that isn't in win now mode will claim him and wait for him to regain his confidence.

 
Chalk one up for the numbers...

Chris Harper has the size and speed of a RB. Unfortunately he has the receiving measure of a RB as well and is extremely unlikely to make an impact as a WR as a result. Despite this limitation, based on his comparables there's a role in the NFL for players with his overall profile -- Jason Avant and Josh Morgan have both stuck around for several years as block-first WRs.
Someone will pick him up IMO. With the Seahawks depth they don't have the luxury of carrying a blocking WR. I think other teams will.
Hope the Chargers do.
:goodposting:

 
I have high hopes for Patton myself. Boyce seems like more a project/stash player in dynasty right now since he lively will be very limited this year. Patton could end up being serviceable and I like his talent/situation long-term.

 
CSN Bay Area's Matt Maiocco believes the 49ers are converting recently signed WR Chris Harper to tight end.
Although he lacks ideal height, Harper is built like a tight end at 6-foot-1, 229 pounds, while his 4.55 speed isn't prohibitive for a receiver, but is far better for a tight end. Strong handed, Harper did his best work after the catch at Kansas State. It's an idea that might not stick, but would seem to be worth trying after Seattle made Harper the rare fourth-round pick to get cut. Either way, Harper will likely be limited to special teams if he manages to keep his roster spot.
 
thecatch said:
Donnybrook said:
thecatch said:
Harper picked up by SF, Schefter reports (Maiocco says it isn't a done deal)
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237371/article/chris-harper-leaves-seahawks-for-division-rival-49ers

EBF is going to be so pleased with himself.
They dealt a promising young OLB to make room for Harper, too. They must subscribe to EBF's newsletter.
The bigger news is the possibility that they will use him as a tweener TE/WR - similar to Arron Hernandez in height and weight. It won't matter much if he keeps dropping the ball.

 
Looked good for a few hours... The Boldin clone being mentored by Boldin!

Now theres talk of making him a TE :yucky:

 
His size makes him ideal as a blocking WR/TE. With the 49ers philosophy, it stands to reason that's what they plan to do with him.

 
Too bad about Harper. I have to apologize if anyone used a high pick on him because of my advice. It's not looking good right now.

He was an intriguing experiment. A good test case to see how much a jumbo frame could compensate for a lack of explosiveness. The answer is apparently not very much. I thought his strength, bulk, and hands would allow him to be effective regardless of the fact that he's not tremendous in terms of initial separation and short area explosiveness, but that doesn't appear to be the case. My expectations of him moving forward are pretty low.

I think I've always been pretty decent at judging RB talent, but my results at WR have been spotty. I've been trying to improve there in recent seasons. This time around I spent more time and energy evaluating the players than ever before. I think I have a good handle on who these guys are, but what I don't fully understand is which traits are essential for success and which are luxury or supplementary. I still need to see what guys like Randle, Hopkins, and Hunter do before I feel totally confident, but certain things are already coming into focus.

When I watched the combine drills in February, I tried to get a sense for who were the most fluid athletes. You can see the tiered rankings below, with the first tier in bold:

Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.
It's really early, but so far all of the first tier guys are at least looking like decent prospects. Nobody from that tier has disintegrated yet, whereas some of the second and third cluster guys have already washed out from one team (Harper, Hamilton, Davis, Rogers). Goard and Kaufman washed out as expected.

The early results have been really unkind to "good frame/bad movement" players like Marcus Davis, Chris Harper, Mark Harrison, and Da'Rick Rogers. These guys look like Pro Bowlers getting off the bus and some of them even lit up the combine drills, but none of them had the ideal precision and fluidity of movement. I think that's probably a big factor in their early struggles.

Looking forward, I think I'm going to place more emphasis on overall movement skills with frame thickness and combine explosiveness used to supplement that analysis and distinguish prospects at the top of the ladder from one another. The ideal receiver is a big receiver with exceptional movement skills (VJax, Demaryius, Dez). Once those guys are gone, it appears that the fluid movers with spotty weight or explosiveness (Woods, Hopkins, Sanders, Patton) have an edge over the height/weight/speed guys who aren't fluid (Rogers, Harrison, Davis). That will be a big guiding principle in future rankings.

 
Height weight speed guys that aren't picked early have not usually been high on my board. If they have the measurables but not the production there is a reason.

 
Too bad about Harper. I have to apologize if anyone used a high pick on him because of my advice. It's not looking good right now.

He was an intriguing experiment. A good test case to see how much a jumbo frame could compensate for a lack of explosiveness. The answer is apparently not very much. I thought his strength, bulk, and hands would allow him to be effective regardless of the fact that he's not tremendous in terms of initial separation and short area explosiveness, but that doesn't appear to be the case. My expectations of him moving forward are pretty low.

I think I've always been pretty decent at judging RB talent, but my results at WR have been spotty. I've been trying to improve there in recent seasons. This time around I spent more time and energy evaluating the players than ever before. I think I have a good handle on who these guys are, but what I don't fully understand is which traits are essential for success and which are luxury or supplementary. I still need to see what guys like Randle, Hopkins, and Hunter do before I feel totally confident, but certain things are already coming into focus.

When I watched the combine drills in February, I tried to get a sense for who were the most fluid athletes. You can see the tiered rankings below, with the first tier in bold:

Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.
It's really early, but so far all of the first tier guys are at least looking like decent prospects. Nobody from that tier has disintegrated yet, whereas some of the second and third cluster guys have already washed out from one team (Harper, Hamilton, Davis, Rogers). Goard and Kaufman washed out as expected.

The early results have been really unkind to "good frame/bad movement" players like Marcus Davis, Chris Harper, Mark Harrison, and Da'Rick Rogers. These guys look like Pro Bowlers getting off the bus and some of them even lit up the combine drills, but none of them had the ideal precision and fluidity of movement. I think that's probably a big factor in their early struggles.

Looking forward, I think I'm going to place more emphasis on overall movement skills with frame thickness and combine explosiveness used to supplement that analysis and distinguish prospects at the top of the ladder from one another. The ideal receiver is a big receiver with exceptional movement skills (VJax, Demaryius, Dez). Once those guys are gone, it appears that the fluid movers with spotty weight or explosiveness (Woods, Hopkins, Sanders, Patton) have an edge over the height/weight/speed guys who aren't fluid (Rogers, Harrison, Davis). That will be a big guiding principle in future rankings.
Is this really surprising? I'm not trying to be mean, but why did it take you until now to have this revelation?

 
Is this really surprising? I'm not trying to be mean, but why did it take you until now to have this revelation?
The holy grail at WR is the player like Julio Jones or Vincent Jackson who has excellent economy of motion in conjunction with special athletic traits. The problem is that there might only be one of those guys (if that) per draft, if that. Which means the challenge of scouting these guys is trying to determine which second tier talent's flaws are the least problematic. Do you take the big guy who lacks a bit of suddenness (Harper)? Do you take the explosive and productive mite (Austin)? Do you take the explosive string bean with no strength or bulk whatsoever (Justin Hunter)? Do you take the solid football player who lacks dynamic explosiveness or bulk (Woods)? These were the difficult questions for me when I was moving through this year's WR class. Boyce was a fairly easy spot because he combines ideal bulk/explosiveness with fluid movement, but others like Rogers and Hunter were tougher to pin down. In the end, I rolled the dice on Harper in many places and came up snake eyes. Lesson learned.

Seeing guys like Baldwin, Marcus Davis, Harper, Rogers, and Harrison (who tbf I never liked) bust says a lot about the viability of big receivers with sub par movement skills. They don't work. Maybe that doesn't surprise everyone, but it's been educational for me. Next year the number one thing I'm going to ask is whether or not the player is a sharp, precise, fluid, and economical athlete. Without that quality, he's dead in the water. Where the height/weight/explosiveness appears most useful is in distinguishing between the fluid guys. In other words, a big/explosive fluid WR like Marqise Lee is a better prospect than smaller/explosive fluid WR like Odell Beckham. However, I'd take either one of them over a height/weight/speed guy with wonky route runner and movement.

 
Is this really surprising? I'm not trying to be mean, but why did it take you until now to have this revelation?
The holy grail at WR is the player like Julio Jones or Vincent Jackson who has excellent economy of motion in conjunction with special athletic traits. The problem is that there might only be one of those guys (if that) per draft, if that. Which means the challenge of scouting these guys is trying to determine which second tier talent's flaws are the least problematic. Do you take the big guy who lacks a bit of suddenness (Harper)? Do you take the explosive and productive mite (Austin)? Do you take the explosive string bean with no strength or bulk whatsoever (Justin Hunter)? Do you take the solid football player who lacks dynamic explosiveness or bulk (Woods)? These were the difficult questions for me when I was moving through this year's WR class. Boyce was a fairly easy spot because he combines ideal bulk/explosiveness with fluid movement, but others like Rogers and Hunter were tougher to pin down. In the end, I rolled the dice on Harper in many places and came up snake eyes. Lesson learned.

Seeing guys like Baldwin, Marcus Davis, Harper, Rogers, and Harrison (who tbf I never liked) bust says a lot about the viability of big receivers with sub par movement skills. They don't work. Maybe that doesn't surprise everyone, but it's been educational for me. Next year the number one thing I'm going to ask is whether or not the player is a sharp, precise, fluid, and economical athlete. Without that quality, he's dead in the water. Where the height/weight/explosiveness appears most useful is in distinguishing between the fluid guys. In other words, a big/explosive fluid WR like Marqise Lee is a better prospect than smaller/explosive fluid WR like Odell Beckham. However, I'd take either one of them over a height/weight/speed guy with wonky route runner and movement.
You are just reiterating the same point over and over. I get it. It makes sense. It's always made sense. It isn't news.

 
Josh Boyce time in New England?

--Amendola down with what could be a multi-week injury.

--Gronk still not back - may be a stretch for Week 3.

--Thompkins got a ton of targets, but didn't do much with them against a suspect secondary... whispers that the game was just too big for him

--Dobson coming back off injury, and didn't look THAT impressive to begin with

Bumping the thread for updated thoughts on Boyce... and let's not forget, Edelman isn't exactly an ironman out there.

 
I did not plan to draft Boyce in my rookie draft but he just fell to me in the middle of the 3rd.

I got to say that Bill is one of the few coaches that doesn't care where a player was drafted as long as they produce. Boyce was very impressive in the final preseason game. He could end up being the Pats go-to-guy by the end of the year.

 
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We'll see what he can do. I'm not expecting anything incredible this year. It seems like it's taking him a while to learn the system and adjust to the speed of the pro game. I would not expect to see the best Josh Boyce for another year or two. The athletic tools are there to make an impact though. His speed, quickness, and explosiveness are unrivaled on New England's roster.

 
Was real disappointed Patton only got one snap last week. When you see Kaep hitting Boldin and VD on so many deep routes, it just seems like Patton is the perfect complement to those guys for that passing game.

No harm no foul though, Patton made it easy for me to know he was the end of my bench and drop him.

 
#FreeJoshBoyce WR play was awful last night. With no Vereen or Hernandez I figured Boyce would be the mismatch guy and play some more. Boy was I wrong(temporarily I hope).

 

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