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737Max Needs a new media manager, and to stop crashing. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter culdeus
- Start date
culdeus
Footballguy
Most complete information I've found here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/11/airlines-and-agencies-reassure-alarmed-passengers-about-boeing-737-max-8
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/11/airlines-and-agencies-reassure-alarmed-passengers-about-boeing-737-max-8
culdeus
Footballguy
It looks like this thing is super sensitive to trim at takeoff. I would be damn sure pilots knew how to manage this. Saying hey, we know how to disable the auto trim isn't really enough.
With the first case a bad speed reading contributed. Not clear if that is the case here yet. It seems a bit much to ask of pilots to diagnose and work thru a bad speed while doing an ascent on a plane that is trying to trim itself out of a phantom problem. JMO JMO
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Maybe so, maybe not. Certainly deserves a hold and thorough investigation.
Have to assume FAA/NTSB/whoever has the authority of any other administration would have grounded them by now. Logic probably being, ####hole country airlines cutting corners in training and maintenance. Doesn't happen here. Also, me and my buddies don't fly commercial and some of them hold Boeing stock.
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![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
I'm not sure where the line should be drawn in terms of "overreacting". There are reportedly 350 of the "737 Max" planes in service, but that apparently includes the "Max 7" and "Max 9" and other derivatives, so I don't know how many planes match the exact configuration of the 2 that crashed.
edit: this site lists 184 active Max 8s, plus 176 which are listed as "stored" (it doesn't say if the ones in storage are due to being grounded or due to other reasons).
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
Bad speed reading should be instant recall. It's the newest freaking plane in their fleet. How are they not recalling themselves? Maybe doing so would admit complicity in the second crash?
culdeus
Footballguy
These are brand new planes.
Ethiopia airlines is a pretty highly respected airline as was Lion. Both cases had front line pilots with lots of experience. It's been pointed out that American and Southwest are putting people in these max planes with nothing more than Sim time with hours in the old style, and they are by no means at all the same aircraft. There's absolutely nothing factual to suggest American/Southwest pilots couldn't end up in the same jam.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I read 8k hours from the one on Ethiopian, which is more than enough for me to have full confidence in the pilot.
Regardless, I'm taking a trip to Miami later this month, you better believe I'm not booking a flight on a 737Max.
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Arizona Ron
Footballguy
The title had me 
Cosby throwback
Cosby throwback
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
I fly a lot, although concerned I'm not cancelling any trips. My concern is that the domestic US flights are going to start having more 737 Max planes since they're being grounded outside of the US. And just FWI, I have multiple trips coming up which are all CONUS 
Scoresman
Footballguy
Reports now that 2 US pilots have come out saying that they reported problems with the anti-stall technology likely causing these crashes.
Can't this system just be turned off? Aren't there a bazillion other alarms and lights that flash that tell a pilot hes about to stall without the need of a system that automatically makes the plane nosedive?
Can't this system just be turned off? Aren't there a bazillion other alarms and lights that flash that tell a pilot hes about to stall without the need of a system that automatically makes the plane nosedive?
The General
Footballguy
I played golf just after the first Air Max crash with a retired AF pilot who also flew large commercial aircraft for 20 years. I asked him about the crash. He went into a long thing about forced stalls.Scoresman said:
Most of the stuff was over my head so I just nodded along but I do remember thinking the overall tone was he thought the first crash was pretty fishy.
The General
Footballguy
Last I heard on this regarding the US response was that you can find out if your future flights will be on one of these Air Max planes and you are free to change your flight but normal fees will apply.
THANKS FOR THAT!
THANKS FOR THAT!
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
That's great for me but what about the Air Max planes flying over US houses/communities? #### them?
The General
Footballguy
Yeah they are screwed as well.
Being able to change your flights with the normal fees isn't really doing anything. You can already do that for any reason
Ron Swanson
Footballguy
Very disappointing. I fly SW a lot and they have just a few of the Max 8's and have elected to go with the Max 7's as their future aircraft. The only time I got a flight on one of the few Max 8's they have it was wonderful. The most comfortable, quiet, and spacious domestic flight I've ever had.
culdeus
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27
Not sure exactly how this works, but pretty sure Boeing is about to get the living #### sued out of them.
Not sure exactly how this works, but pretty sure Boeing is about to get the living #### sued out of them.
Senor Schmutzig
Footballguy
And then there was one....I can't imagine the FAA going much longer than another day or two before they also ground the plane.
The US is the ONLY holdout at this point. Boeing is still standing behind the plane. The US is standing behind Boeing. American/Southwest et.al are standing behind the plane also. Heck, even the union that represents flight attendants has issued a statement telling their members that they don't have to fly on these planes if they don't feel comfortable. Meanwhile, American seems to be the only holdout that will still charge change fees if passengers want to move to a different flight.
As an avid flyer myself, I have utmost respect for the pilots that I take for granted every time I step on an aircraft however at this time, due to the cause of both recent 787-MAX8 crashes being undetermined, my confidence in hopping on one of these planes is lessened considerably.
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Mr. Ected
Footballguy
The fact that the US isn't grounding them likely has something to do with the Boeing CEO calling his friend Donald Trump.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Senor Schmutzig
Footballguy
From my fingers to Trumps ears. Huh...
Jobber
Footballguy
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
Senor Schmutzig
Footballguy
LOL no.....never. It must be a South American thing though because on every flight back to Miami, there's clapping.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
On March 11, Boeing announced that the company "has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer." The shutdown of non-essential operations at the FAA caused work on the fix to be suspended for five weeks, according to unnamed US officials cited by the Wall Street Journal. The fix is expected to be mandated for installation by the FAA by the end of April.
The update seeks to correct what may have been the root cause of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia last October—the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System's (MCAS') reliance on a single sensor to determine whether the aircraft is entering a stall. But according to a WSJ report, that fix was delayed because the FAA shutdown interrupted the approval process.
The update seeks to correct what may have been the root cause of the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia last October—the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System's (MCAS') reliance on a single sensor to determine whether the aircraft is entering a stall. But according to a WSJ report, that fix was delayed because the FAA shutdown interrupted the approval process.
More likely the US government will be. Boeing had a fix, if same as Indonesia root cause, but shutdown delayed implementation.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
But it is on them to declare a recall, no?rascal said:
Apple Jack
Footballguy
I don't think they can turn off just that feature without disabling autopilot.Scoresman said:
A service bulletin, yes, but recall, no. I bet we find out that Boeing issued guidance that never got to these pilots.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
And apparently, the FAA does not review the pilot feedback database. Which is completely insane. As far as I can tell, they were not aware of the two complaints.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but my impression is that the new location of the engines can cause an issue with stalling while climbing. So the auto pilot got adjusted to dip the nose a bit to avoid stalling.
Normally, pilots would have to have tons of hours training on a new plane model before being certified those planned, especially something like moving the engines up. But Boeing managed to push for treating them like any other 737 and no extra training is required.
Most pilots seem to have no idea about this particular issue. If they were aware they would just go through all the systems checks, see that the plane is actually doing what it is supposed to be doing and everything is good. Instead, pilots are panicking and forcing the plane to climb again which causes it to then stall.
As an aside, anyone notice prices go up on flights yesterday? I don't typically buy last minute flights, so maybe this is totally normal, but I booked a fairly short flight yesterday that is a round trip this weekend and the prices were crazy.
Normally, pilots would have to have tons of hours training on a new plane model before being certified those planned, especially something like moving the engines up. But Boeing managed to push for treating them like any other 737 and no extra training is required.
Most pilots seem to have no idea about this particular issue. If they were aware they would just go through all the systems checks, see that the plane is actually doing what it is supposed to be doing and everything is good. Instead, pilots are panicking and forcing the plane to climb again which causes it to then stall.
As an aside, anyone notice prices go up on flights yesterday? I don't typically buy last minute flights, so maybe this is totally normal, but I booked a fairly short flight yesterday that is a round trip this weekend and the prices were crazy.
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GroveDiesel
Footballguy
No. Plane crashes used to happen all the time. They're incredibly rare now and autopilot is basically never the culprit when they happen. Automisation has made air travel much much safer.
[scooter]
Footballguy
Senor Schmutzig
Footballguy
Supply and demand? Not sure of the city pairs that you were travelling on but my parents who fly non-rev due to one retiring from the airlines years ago, had to cancel their weekend trip from Florida to MSP to see my brother. They fly on Delta but all of the flights suddenly booked right up after the AA/WN planes were grounded and people had to be re-accommodated on other flights.
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
Scoresman
Footballguy
I don't know. I dont think a plane should be automatically nose diving so soon after takeoff regardless. Yeah, armchair pilot here and all, but I don't think having a system like that is a good idea. If the plane is stalling, then sound alarms, flash lights, whatever, but have the pilots handle it. And if that is how it's supposed to function, then not notifying pilots that something like this is in place is criminal in my mind.
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