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☹ Official 2020 Las Vegas Raiders thread ☹ (1 Viewer)

DocHolliday

Footballguy
I’m all for just standing pat on offense, honestly. Including the WR and TE corps, as well as the QBs. A small OL tweak for depth would be fine (as we found out how valuable our OL depth was this year)  but, besides that....D, D and more D!
I don’t know how we have faith that Gruden isn’t going to screw up the next draft.  We needed a WR1 and Lamb fell into his lap but he took the decoy instead.  We needed D and he reached for the often injured and slow Arnette.  We still needed D in round 3 and we ended up with Bowden, who is probably a decent slot WR, which the Raiders didn’t need.   At all.   It was so obvious that the pick was a mistake that he was sent packing at the beginning of the season.    Having another shot to fill one of the many holes on D again in round 3, Gruden takes Edwards, who was injured coming out of college, was injured most of the season and looks like a slow and lost WR.   

Gruden could have killed the last draft with only a few hours of prep but instead struck out over and over.  The 2020 draft is a F- and was the worst draft since Jawalus.   

 

joey

Footballguy
I don’t know how we have faith that Gruden isn’t going to screw up the next draft.  We needed a WR1 and Lamb fell into his lap but he took the decoy instead.  We needed D and he reached for the often injured and slow Arnette.  We still needed D in round 3 and we ended up with Bowden, who is probably a decent slot WR, which the Raiders didn’t need.   At all.   It was so obvious that the pick was a mistake that he was sent packing at the beginning of the season.    Having another shot to fill one of the many holes on D again in round 3, Gruden takes Edwards, who was injured coming out of college, was injured most of the season and looks like a slow and lost WR.   

Gruden could have killed the last draft with only a few hours of prep but instead struck out over and over.  The 2020 draft is a F- and was the worst draft since Jawalus.   
The more I heard about Arnette and his tough play at Ohio State, the more I liked the pick. Besides that, I didn’t love Ruggs or Bowden either. Go Lamb and BPA on D at those two picks and it’s a much better draft IMO. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
I don’t agree with Chad much these days but he is a great guy.   I love the positivity!  I don’t mean to come off as a jerk to any of my fellow Raider fans   Please don’t take anything I say personally.   

Ruggs is tiny and will never be a WR 1 for that reason.   The injuries will continue to be a concern but my reasoning for him never being a true WR1 is that he can’t win contested catches most times.   He is so small that he just gets bumped out of position by CBs that are just average sized.   Does Ruggs even weigh 180 pounds?   He looks really thin.  
Thanks bud. (and sorry for you thinking I called you name, I didn't... I said you were being like that in your response.... but I get it... frustration is over flowing these days. Heads got hot. We are all good now.... even if I disagree with you about pretty much everything Raider related right now- lol)

I see him at 187. I see Tyreek Hill as 185. (quick Google searches with the first weight numbers I saw)

I have gone like a yo yo with Ruggs. If you go back pre-draft you will see my rant and rave how Ruggs was the last guy I wanted out of the big 3. It was largely driven off of a prejudice against speedster WR's to be honest. We picked him. I dug into him a whole lot and what I was seeing won me over and I could see what Mayock/Gruden were doing. Now, would have CeeDee been a better pick? Maybe. Would he have opened up the offense like Ruggs potentially can? I don't think so. Would Jeudy been a better option? (The guy that I wanted pre-draft) Well... he hasn't done much more than Ruggs with him not missing any games they have the same amount of TD's and Jeudy has about 10 yards a game more (breaking it down on average yards per game). He certainly wouldn't open up the offense. Is Jeudy a #1? I think he likely is. I think it is his rookie season just like Ruggs. I think it is just too early to say that Ruggs was a mistake. Just like the rest of the draft sans Bowden because we already moved on- so drafting him was a mistake.... or maybe shipping him off was the mistake.... not sure... but there was a mistake in there somewhere for sure. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
the raiders always seem to draft dudes that are injury prone/risks.  i have no idea if this happens to other teams as often as it does to the raiders.  but good god,  it just seems like it's 2-3 guys, every year!  throw in the 1 semi, to serious character risk draft pick(bowden), and that's nearly half the draft.

i mentioned it during the draft this year.  ruggs and robertson(injured in college) are tiny.  tiny dudes get hurt.  unless they are built like fire hydrants.  edwards had injury problems in college.  didn't Annette play with a broken hand for most of his senior year? 

i get it that bad luck, is just that.  but how about we take some boring dependable guys that haven't had any major injuries, before draft day.  this trend, and the hybrid/tweener picks. are one of the things that, makes me think gruden is always trying to be cute and "outsmart" everyone.  but that's who he is.  i give you nathan peterman.  SMDH

i always appreciate your input chad!  you're a great dude, and i wish i had your positivity, when it comes to the raiders!
Thank bud. 

I don't think it is positivity as much as it is what I see. I mean,  I don't know, when I see the injuries I think we are cursed... so I am not so sure how much positive thinking that is.  :lmao:

 
I think @Bruno2 and @Chadstroma have the right takes here. This team deserves criticism for falling apart -- that's on the coaching staff and the entire team for not fully committing to excellence on every play of every game -- but the main culprit here is our D and I fully believe we would be in the playoffs with a D that could play credibly.

Our 53 man squad included the following guys I'd consider average or above average NFL starters:

  • Maxx Crosby -- our best player on D coming into the season, and the only guy who gives us any semblance of a pass rush
  • Clelin Ferrell -- a guy who clearly developed YoY. He's not the rush force we need off the edge but we plays two-way well and opens up opportunity. He's not an pro-bowler, but still has room to develop, and even if his third year is only marginally better, he's an above average starter.
  • Nick Kwiatkowski -- a smart, capable, defensive quarterback who is right now the keystone to our D. 
  • Trayvon Mullen -- prone to mistakes but largely improved this year and developing into a dependable, if not high quality, starter
As far as the others:

  • Carl Nassib -- FA signing that was a complete bust. Never lived up to his billing, not worth the money we paid him.
  • Arden Key -- a guy who has been on the verge of breaking out for a while but never has clearly progressed. May still have it in him, but at this time, looks like he isn't a consistent contributer
  • Maliek Collins -- also never lived up to the level of play he had for the Cowboys.
  • Jonathan Hankins -- middling tackle whose best year was his first with the Giants -- we haven't seen his ability to be a run stuffer or the 7 sack/6 QB hits/21 hurries type of player he was in 2014.
  • Maurice Hurst -- a guy I expected to develop a lot more this year, his third in the NFL. Still time, but looking more like a lifetime rotational player who doesn't bring the juice his 6'1, 291 frame should
  • Kendall Vickers - journeyman CFL/NFL player who is simply depth for injury, as opposed to a quality rotational end
  • Daniel Ross -- journeyman CFL/NFL player who didn't impact the team whatsoever.
  • Cory Littleton -- a bust of a FA signing -- provides a warm body and the occasional tackle.
  • Raekwon MacMillan -- looked better when playing with Kiko Alonso and Jerome Baker, but shows some flashes late this year and may still contribute.
  • Nicholas Morrow -- more a liability in coverage than a help, and not talented enough to be a starter.
  • Tanner Muse -- jury still out, we really haven't seen what he can bring with his toe surgery hampering a large part of a critical learning rookie year. 
  • Damon Arnette -- raw skill is there, but needs to clean up his tackling to protect himself, and still has a large learning curve as he is inconsistent
  • Lamarcus Joyner -- a square peg in a round hole operating as nickle back when he has traditionally been better at safety, I think he's lost a step and is below average as either. 
  • Isaiah Johnson -- too early to tell
  • Amik Robertson -- also too early to tell. 
  • Keisean Nixon -- an utter liability in coverage, and not even the best ST returner. 
  • Jonathan Abram -- huge talent and heart, but needs to learn to play the game and develop more as a player in coverage. Guy absolutely needs to mature fast and put defense above big hitting if he wants to develop into any shadow of the players who wore his number previously for the Raiders
  • Erik Harris -- good nose for the ball as a rover, but a below-average safety
  • Jeff Heath -- brings some experience but not the level of play you would expect from an 8 year vet, and is a below-average starter. At least he can kick the ball in an emergency.
  • Dallin Leavitt - warm body for depth is about the best thing I can say about Leavitt's game.
That's the talent level we had to work with. 2 guys who are above average talents (Crosby, Kaptain K), 2 average guys with potential trajectory (Ferrell, Mullen), and out of the rest, maybe 4 guys who look talented but need to develop quickly (Hurst, MacMillan, Arnette, Abram). 

The remaining players we had on D were either FAs who were busts or never played as average starters (Nassib, Littleton, Joyner), or guys who were more liabilities in their play than not.

We brought in Vic Beasley and David Irving who may or may not be busts or blessings -- to early to tell. We signed no-ones for depth in McKinley, Eligwe, Wilber, DJ Killins, and even had to resign Daryl Worley. 

You simply can't have a playoff team with only 4 average to above average starters. You can't have a playoff team without a DC with a proven track record of developing young talent (is Wade Philips that guy? I don't know -- I do know expecting guys like Littleton and Joyner to suddenly be better reunited with their old coach is a pipedream).

Here is who we passed up in getting in FA:

  • Justin Houston
  • Shaq Barrett
  • Ndamukong Suh
  • JPP
  • Leonard Floyd
  • Yannick Ngakoue
  • Carlos Dunlap
  • Za'Darius Smith
  • Jadeveon Clowney
I like that our FO is looking for the right value, but with inordinately thin defensive talent, we should have been more aggressive in getting guys who looked like they could contribute, and did for the teams who went and got them. We need to be less penny-wise/pound foolish when it was clear we did not have the talent up front to help.

TL;DR: You will never be successful with only 4 average/above average starters on D, and so much youth yet to develop.

To turn it around next year, we need to 1) hire the right DC who not only comes with the right game plan but can actually develop the amount of young talent we have on the roster; and 2) make bolder FA signings and not be afraid to bring in one high priced ticket FA that can shore up a huge position of need (like inside rush) that can lift the rest of the D around them by creating opportunity.

We do this, we can be a 10+ win playoff team. We have a lot of youth on our team which is good -- if it develops the right way. Will be interesting to see what happens in the offseason through next year, because Gruden's seat needs to be very hot next year if we have another disappointing season.

 
I don’t know how we have faith that Gruden isn’t going to screw up the next draft.  We needed a WR1 and Lamb fell into his lap but he took the decoy instead.  We needed D and he reached for the often injured and slow Arnette.  We still needed D in round 3 and we ended up with Bowden, who is probably a decent slot WR, which the Raiders didn’t need.   At all.   It was so obvious that the pick was a mistake that he was sent packing at the beginning of the season.    Having another shot to fill one of the many holes on D again in round 3, Gruden takes Edwards, who was injured coming out of college, was injured most of the season and looks like a slow and lost WR.   

Gruden could have killed the last draft with only a few hours of prep but instead struck out over and over.  The 2020 draft is a F- and was the worst draft since Jawalus.   
Yes, looking at the season, we should have stocked up on D. But you can always find fault with 20/20 perspective. A long season creates short memories -- remember that the offense (and specifically a need to get Carr weapons) was arguably as much or a bigger need going into the season, which explains Bowden and Edwards.

With first round draft picks standing at just a hair over a 50% success hit rate, you cant expect every pick -- including the ones at deeper rounds where the hit rate drops further -- to be a blow-out success?

There is the desire for this team to be better -- which we can agree there is definitely room for. There are also unrealistic expectations around draft hit expectations that aren't borne out in the real world.

 
Final thought -- every team goes through injury, and that's another thing the Raiders can get better at -- finding the right rotational depth. I think they found someone in Good who is that kind of player. We need way more.

But I wonder how this season would have fared if:

  • Incognito played the season
  • Trent Brown was healthy
  • Our two starting safeties weren't taking themselves out of games by leading with their heads
  • The team wasn't as impacted by COVID (every team was, and while there were teams that were hit worse than the Raiders, we definitely fared poorly in this area in terms of having the right vigilance and luck)
May have been the difference in a game or two that would have put us in a WC game.

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
Yes, looking at the season, we should have stocked up on D. But you can always find fault with 20/20 perspective. A long season creates short memories -- remember that the offense (and specifically a need to get Carr weapons) was arguably as much or a bigger need going into the season, which explains Bowden and Edwards.

With first round draft picks standing at just a hair over a 50% success hit rate, you cant expect every pick -- including the ones at deeper rounds where the hit rate drops further -- to be a blow-out success?

There is the desire for this team to be better -- which we can agree there is definitely room for. There are also unrealistic expectations around draft hit expectations that aren't borne out in the real world.
It’s not like the horrible D just happened this season.  D has been a problem for years.    With four picks in the first three rounds, Gruden was set up perfectly 8 months ago to address the deficiencies.   The draft fell in Grudens lap and all he had to do was make the obvious choices!   Gruden chose not to and that is a huge problem that makes the future look dim.   It’s not like he made the logical choices that didn’t work out.   He chose a bunch of the wrong players for no reason.  

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Our 53 man squad included the following guys I'd consider average or above average NFL starters:
Some thoughts added on your otherwise excellent breakdown: 

Maxx Crosby, Clelin Ferrell -- I don't think there is much of a gap at all between Maxx and Clelin in terms of value. Maxx gets the sacks but isn't as valuable otherwise, Clelin does all else well but doesn't get the sacks. I haven't seen anything recently but a handful of games ago PFF had them ranked #14 and #15 best DE's in the game and I honestly don't remember who was who. If Clelin ended up with 7-9 sacks in a season, he would be a pro bowler player. The sacks are literally the only thing missing from his game. Because of his spot he was drafted in, because sacks are sexy and because sacks are one thing we desperately need on the D, it is blown up bigger and people discount him much more than he ought to be. 

Nick Kwiatkowski -- A rock type of player that is a Jack of All Trades kind of guy that can really be the glue to a defense. 

Trayvon Mullen -- Good development this year with room to continue to grow. I think he is a NFL starter level of talent. 

As far as the others:

Carl Nassib -- Such a waste of a FA signing and not much we can do to move on next year from him either. 

Arden Key -- Have not seen it. I am ok moving on from him. 

Maliek Collins -- Another waste of a FA signing. Did squat. 

Jonathan Hankins -- A decent run stuffer to have in rotation. 

Maurice Hurst -- Would have liked to seen more this year but agree, looks to be a rotational player. 

Kendall Vickers - Doubt he will be with us next year. 

Daniel Ross -- Doubt he will be with us next year.

Cory Littleton -- Heart breaking FA signing. I was so excited about getting him and he went from being one of, if not the best cover LB's in the game, to pretty much a liability in coverage. How? Why?

Raekwon MacMillan -- A run stopping LB. Can be a great compliment to the LB corp if used correctly. 

Nicholas Morrow -- I have to say that I was pleased with his growth this year. I don't think he is that far off from developing a little more and being starter material for a good D but if not he is good depth for sure.

Tanner Muse -- With him on IR, who knows. 

Damon Arnette -- Gimpses enough from this rough rookie season to feel like he is NFL starting material. 

Lamarcus Joyner -- Agreed that he is out of position. Hopefully we do move him back as a FS to couple with Abram at SS. 

Isaiah Johnson -- Needs a lot more development. At this point, he could be out of the league in two years or be a starter. 

Amik Robertson -- We saw nothing. I am really worried over it because with the injury issues we had, why didn't we see more of him? Was he THAT bad?

Keisean Nixon -- Doubt he is with us next year. 

Jonathan Abram -- He is the heart of this D. You could see a different level of energy on the D when he was in and a little less when he wasn't. Agree he needs to grow and mature. 

Erik Harris -- Good depth S. 

Jeff Heath -- Good depth S

Dallin Leavitt - A ST that was never really meant to see much playing time on D

Here is the thing.... we know guys like Collins, Joyner, Littleton and even MacMillan can play. Why didn't they with us? I keep coming back to what Will Compton said and it seems to really explain a whole lot. It doesn't matter how talented you are if you don't know what your role is and what you are suppose to do or where to be in a defense because the gameplan is the whole defensive playbook every week. How much of a difference will be made with a decent DC that prepares the team and has them know their roles and where they are suppose to be? I think a whole lot. I think the level of play for a lot of these guys will jump dramatically if we get the right guy in to lead them. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Thanks bud. (and sorry for you thinking I called you name, I didn't... I said you were being like that in your response.... but I get it... frustration is over flowing these days. Heads got hot. We are all good now.... even if I disagree with you about pretty much everything Raider related right now- lol)
and I meant to add... which I was being one as well in snapping back like that.

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
It’s not like the horrible D just happened this season.  D has been a problem for years.    With four picks in the first three rounds, Gruden was set up perfectly 8 months ago to address the deficiencies.   The draft fell in Grudens lap and all he had to do was make the obvious choices!   Gruden chose not to and that is a huge problem that makes the future look dim.   It’s not like he made the logical choices that didn’t work out.   He chose a bunch of the wrong players for no reason.  
And this further really makes me think that the DC is the root of the problem. Is it really possible to swing and miss so badly on so many players brought in with FA and draft and not get better over the last 3 years at least? I mean, Littleton, Joyner and Collins and even Nassib and MacMillan all played much better before coming to us. How can all of them flounder other than that there is a common denominator that has them play less than what they did before.... the DC

 

iamkoza

Footballguy
what is this team doing at QB next year? Carr is 29, and signed thru 2022. his salary cap hit would be $22M next year, they can cut him and only have a dead cap hit of $2.5M. Mariotta is signed thru 21 , almost $11M salary next year though they can cut him this off-season w/o cap hit.

 

Charlie Harper

Footballguy
what is this team doing at QB next year? Carr is 29, and signed thru 2022. his salary cap hit would be $22M next year, they can cut him and only have a dead cap hit of $2.5M. Mariotta is signed thru 21 , almost $11M salary next year though they can cut him this off-season w/o cap hit.
I'm ok with Carr or Mariota as a stop gap, but they need to draft a young QB. Carr is who he is. He's a good, not great QB.

 

Bruno2

Footballguy
what is this team doing at QB next year? Carr is 29, and signed thru 2022. his salary cap hit would be $22M next year, they can cut him and only have a dead cap hit of $2.5M. Mariotta is signed thru 21 , almost $11M salary next year though they can cut him this off-season w/o cap hit.
Just my opinion, it'll be the Carr/Mariota/Peterman show one more year. Gruden has too much time invested into teaching Carr the offense to cut him to save money, makes absolutely no sense. Mariota is intriguing though. He showed the Raiders what he could do with his legs in Gruden's offense which might have lit a little fire in Gruden that maybe he can be the future QB of the team. If any QB changes comes at all in 2021 it might be a later round pick to groom as the 3rd string and finally send Peterman packing.

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
what is this team doing at QB next year? Carr is 29, and signed thru 2022. his salary cap hit would be $22M next year, they can cut him and only have a dead cap hit of $2.5M. Mariotta is signed thru 21 , almost $11M salary next year though they can cut him this off-season w/o cap hit.
No change at QB. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Just my opinion, it'll be the Carr/Mariota/Peterman show one more year. Gruden has too much time invested into teaching Carr the offense to cut him to save money, makes absolutely no sense. Mariota is intriguing though. He showed the Raiders what he could do with his legs in Gruden's offense which might have lit a little fire in Gruden that maybe he can be the future QB of the team. If any QB changes comes at all in 2021 it might be a later round pick to groom as the 3rd string and finally send Peterman packing.
If Gruden wants to give up 10% in completion percentage, end up with more INT's and is ok with an inability to throw accurately deep for more rushing yards then sure Mariota will get the nod. 

Seriously guys... Mariota is a back up for us. That is what he was signed for. Always was and always will be unless something happens to Carr. He is meant to do what he did for us when Carr got knocked out of the game. Come in and give us a chance. 

If there was ANY inclination to have Mariota over Carr they would have kept Carr on the bench last game. 

 
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DocHolliday

Footballguy
If Gruden wants to give up 10% in completion percentage, end up with more INT's and is ok with an inability to throw accurately deep for more rushing yards then sure Mariota will get the nod. 

Seriously guys... Mariota is a back up for us. That is what he was signed for. Always was and always will be unless something happens to Carr. He is meant to do what he did for us when Carr got knocked out of the game. Come in and give us a chance. 

If there was ANY inclination to have Mariota over Carr they would have kept Carr on the bench last game. 
Chad and I have finally found something to agree on!     Carr is the guy for the Raiders next season.   He plays well 95% of the time and is not the reason for the losses.   Carr will never be a top option for fantasy football due to the lack of a true WR1 and the Raiders missed their opportunity to add a WR1 8 months ago.   Carr will be passing to Waller, Agholor, and Renfrow again in 2021.  Waller is elite but the WR Corp will continue to be one of the worst in the NFL.   

 

joey

Footballguy
Chad and I have finally found something to agree on!     Carr is the guy for the Raiders next season.   He plays well 95% of the time and is not the reason for the losses.   Carr will never be a top option for fantasy football due to the lack of a true WR1 and the Raiders missed their opportunity to add a WR1 8 months ago.   Carr will be passing to Waller, Agholor, and Renfrow again in 2021.  Waller is elite but the WR Corp will continue to be one of the worst in the NFL.   
I’d be fine with Waller, Aghalor, and letting the 2 rookie WRs develop as our receivers heading into next year. Carr at QB. Marriotta as the most capable backup QB we’ve had in forever. Make sure we continue to have OL depth and then....have I mentioned?....Defense defense defense. In the draft. In free agency. In black market dealings. However they need to get talent on D onto this team. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Chad and I have finally found something to agree on!     Carr is the guy for the Raiders next season.   He plays well 95% of the time and is not the reason for the losses.   Carr will never be a top option for fantasy football due to the lack of a true WR1 and the Raiders missed their opportunity to add a WR1 8 months ago.   Carr will be passing to Waller, Agholor, and Renfrow again in 2021.  Waller is elite but the WR Corp will continue to be one of the worst in the NFL.   
Well... we were in agreement and then you had to go and throw that last part in.  :rant:

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
I’d be fine with Waller, Aghalor, and letting the 2 rookie WRs develop as our receivers heading into next year. Carr at QB. Marriotta as the most capable backup QB we’ve had in forever. Make sure we continue to have OL depth and then....have I mentioned?....Defense defense defense. In the draft. In free agency. In black market dealings. However they need to get talent on D onto this team. 
Waller is elite. 

Agholor really stepped up and played above his Philly days for sure. Renfrow is a good possession but not just possession guy. As I said about Ruggs, I am no where near writing him off. I think if Ruggs never amounts to anything other than a burner, say.... in the line of a James Jett.... and doesn't develop more.... I think that we still have a decent if not great WR corps there. I think one of the worst groups in the league is over dramatic. 

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
Waller is elite. 

Agholor really stepped up and played above his Philly days for sure. Renfrow is a good possession but not just possession guy. As I said about Ruggs, I am no where near writing him off. I think if Ruggs never amounts to anything other than a burner, say.... in the line of a James Jett.... and doesn't develop more.... I think that we still have a decent if not great WR corps there. I think one of the worst groups in the league is over dramatic. 
Yes.   The Raider WR Corp is one of the worst in the league.   It’s not the worst but it’s bottom 1/4.   Drafting a James Jett in the first round is a huge fail.   Winning WR corps can be seen at Seattle, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Cleveland, AZ, Tennessee, LA.   

 

32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
If Gruden wants to give up 10% in completion percentage, end up with more INT's and is ok with an inability to throw accurately deep for more rushing yards then sure Mariota will get the nod. 

Seriously guys... Mariota is a back up for us. That is what he was signed for. Always was and always will be unless something happens to Carr. He is meant to do what he did for us when Carr got knocked out of the game. Come in and give us a chance. 

If there was ANY inclination to have Mariota over Carr they would have kept Carr on the bench last game. 
Well said. Carr has played exceptional this year. The only area he could improve in is running the ball. I recall Gruden stressing this at one point but it never played out on the field. That might explain the appeal of Mariota. 

 

32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
Waller is elite. 

Agholor really stepped up and played above his Philly days for sure. Renfrow is a good possession but not just possession guy. As I said about Ruggs, I am no where near writing him off. I think if Ruggs never amounts to anything other than a burner, say.... in the line of a James Jett.... and doesn't develop more.... I think that we still have a decent if not great WR corps there. I think one of the worst groups in the league is over dramatic. 
Agholor's biggest issue is consistency. He will make some great catches then drop some very easy catches. (Who can ever forget this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVnuNHar_fc) At this point I am not sure that can be coached out of him. I agree they should try to keep him if the price is right.

I am semi with you on Ruggs. My concern is all the rookies had the same lack of OTAs and lack of training camp. Why did some like Jefferson, Lamb, and to a lesser degree Higgins find success and Ruggs had very little success? I do not know the answer.

 

joey

Footballguy
Agholor's biggest issue is consistency. He will make some great catches then drop some very easy catches. (Who can ever forget this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVnuNHar_fc) At this point I am not sure that can be coached out of him. I agree they should try to keep him if the price is right.

I am semi with you on Ruggs. My concern is all the rookies had the same lack of OTAs and lack of training camp. Why did some like Jefferson, Lamb, and to a lesser degree Higgins find success and Ruggs had very little success? I do not know the answer.
That was the wrap on Agholor in Philly but he’s done a 180 IMO with the Raiders. Dude was clutch from what I saw. Did he drop one now and then? Sure. Every single WR does that. But he didn’t have the dropsies like he did with Philly or like Cooper did with the Raiders. He’s a keeper IMO. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Agholor's biggest issue is consistency. He will make some great catches then drop some very easy catches. (Who can ever forget this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVnuNHar_fc) At this point I am not sure that can be coached out of him. I agree they should try to keep him if the price is right.

I am semi with you on Ruggs. My concern is all the rookies had the same lack of OTAs and lack of training camp. Why did some like Jefferson, Lamb, and to a lesser degree Higgins find success and Ruggs had very little success? I do not know the answer.
Remember Jefferson and Lamb didn't miss any time with injury. 

Plus, now I love how everyone throws in Jefferson into the mix because he had a great year (not a dig on you just see this often in the retroactive discussion of WR's) when before no one had Jefferson on the level of the big three. And it also tends to go that Jeudy is dropped from that discussion as well. 

Also keep in mind different players develop at different levels. 

Finally, Gruden's system is considered a more complicated one. 

I am not going to judge Ruggs on his rookie year. 

 

Ed Wood

Footballguy
Remember Jefferson and Lamb didn't miss any time with injury. 

Plus, now I love how everyone throws in Jefferson into the mix because he had a great year (not a dig on you just see this often in the retroactive discussion of WR's) when before no one had Jefferson on the level of the big three. And it also tends to go that Jeudy is dropped from that discussion as well. 

Also keep in mind different players develop at different levels. 

Finally, Gruden's system is considered a more complicated one. 

I am not going to judge Ruggs on his rookie year. 
Whew, a lot to digest since Fins debacle and a lot of divergent opinions on what needs to be fixed and how to fix it and who should go and who should stay. I'll just for now comment on Chad's take on above regarding Ruggs and specifically Gruden's system. It is complex but another Gruden failure this year was to not incorporate any plays on a regular basis to get the ball in Ruggs' hands. He got this "toy" and he never really played with it. Just inexcusable. What I did see of Ruggs was a guy who runs fast and not much else. You were able to count his big plays this season on one hand. Gruden has GOT to get him more involved next year.

 

ICON211

Footballguy
Ed Wood said:
Whew, a lot to digest since Fins debacle and a lot of divergent opinions on what needs to be fixed and how to fix it and who should go and who should stay. I'll just for now comment on Chad's take on above regarding Ruggs and specifically Gruden's system. It is complex but another Gruden failure this year was to not incorporate any plays on a regular basis to get the ball in Ruggs' hands. He got this "toy" and he never really played with it. Just inexcusable. What I did see of Ruggs was a guy who runs fast and not much else. You were able to count his big plays this season on one hand. Gruden has GOT to get him more involved next year.
Agree.  Disappointed not to see more jet sweeps, bubble screens and quick slants designed for Ruggs.

 

scothawk

Footballguy
Don't want to appear a hater but I do feel there is a chance that all Ruggs can do at this point is run fast. The tools are there for better so it's up to the Raiders to bring him on.

 
It’s not like the horrible D just happened this season.  D has been a problem for years.    With four picks in the first three rounds, Gruden was set up perfectly 8 months ago to address the deficiencies.   The draft fell in Grudens lap and all he had to do was make the obvious choices!   Gruden chose not to and that is a huge problem that makes the future look dim.   It’s not like he made the logical choices that didn’t work out.   He chose a bunch of the wrong players for no reason.  
Yes, the D has been a problem for years. You know what else was? The offense. Our last two drafts were dedicated to righting that ship and I think this year is proof that we did, despite being banged up and having a shallow WR corps. We can score points with the best of teams, and against stout Ds.

You can't fix everything at once, and draft hit rates aren't very high in general, so I think your viewpoint about the future looking dim is really myopic. We have an offense, we need to desperately address defense in FA. I don't see a really deep D-line class this year so top blue chip tackles and edge rushers won't fall to us around ~16. We should absolutely be targeting ND's Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah, who may be around for our pick and would be a great middle defending LB.

I'm ok with Carr or Mariota as a stop gap, but they need to draft a young QB. Carr is who he is. He's a good, not great QB.
I acknowledge that it is highly subjective on whether Carr is good, great, or not.

I tend to go by data when making these calls. Would you call a Top 10 QB great? I sure would. I'd even extend that to the Top 15, but taking Carr's position across all QB stats, he nets out exactly at 10th:

  • Top 5 in game winning drives (tied 2nd)
  • Tied for 8th in least INTs thrown
  • Top 10 in comp % (10th)
  • Top 10 in INT% (tied for 4th)
  • Top 10 in yards/attempt (9th)
  • Top 10 in yards/catch (9th)
  • Top 10 in QB rating (9th per PFR, 12th per ESPN's formula)
  • Top 10 in net yards per attempt (10th, 8th per PFR's adjusted net yards per attempt)
  • Top 15 in attempts (14th)
  • Top 15 in yards (15th)
  • Top 15 in TDs (12th)
  • Top 15 in TD % (14th)
  • 16th in 1st Downs
No QB is perfect - Carr can still improve with ball security, and while he improved in getting rid of the ball before taking a sack, he can still improve there as in one or two down games he had some really poor decision making. Happens to the best in the odd game, so no one is immune, but Carr still can get better. He also desperately needs to spend the entire offseason with Ruggs getting timing down.

But bottom line, Carr has been demonstrably great.

 
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DocHolliday

Footballguy
Yes, the D has been a problem for years. You know what else was? The offense. Our last two drafts were dedicated to righting that ship and I think this year is proof that we did, despite being banged up and having a shallow WR corps. We can score points with the best of teams, and against stout Ds.

You can't fix everything at once, and draft hit rates aren't very high in general, so I think your viewpoint about the future looking dim is really myopic. We have an offense, we need to desperately address defense in FA. I don't see a really deep D-line class this year so top blue chip tackles and edge rushers won't fall to us around ~16. We should absolutely be targeting ND's Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah, who may be around for our pick and would be a great middle defending LB.I a
Just what did Gruden fix in the last draft?   What about the previous draft?   I see a couple of good players obtained in 2019.   Gruden is not hitting anything out of the park.  I see a couple of doubles.  

 

King of the Jungle

Footballguy
Carr has seemingly played pretty well. I see a lot of the same sentiment from Raider fans as Lion fans have for Stafford. There are few quarterbacks that can carry a team on their own. I consider Watson a great quarterback but look at HOU’s record. OAK’s defense is a joke and his pass catchers (collectively) are in the bottom quarter of the league IMO. That puts a lot of pressure on a quarterback who has nearly 4000 yards passing and a 25-7 TD/INT ratio so far. That is pretty darn good if not great.

 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
11, 24, 28, 23, 7, 17  offense ranking 2020-2015

29, 24, 32, 20, 20, 22  defense ranking 2020-2015

bolded is this year.  they could change.

both sides of the ball are overall, not that great.  offense is trending in the right direction.  defense is not.

gruden went with what he knows, offense.  the defense is a wreck.  but we all know this.  what's the solution?  who knows....but let's not pick 3 wrs, in the first 4 picks, ever again.  like ever.

 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Carr has seemingly played pretty well. I see a lot of the same sentiment from Raider fans as Lion fans have for Stafford. There are few quarterbacks that can carry a team on their own. I consider Watson a great quarterback but look at HOU’s record. OAK’s defense is a joke and his pass catchers (collectively) are in the bottom quarter of the league IMO. That puts a lot of pressure on a quarterback who has nearly 4000 yards passing and a 25-7 TD/INT ratio so far. That is pretty darn good if not great.
from a distance, stafford looks pretty good.  same issues as the raiders.  lions have better skill players.  raiders have a better o line.  and i'd give the lions d, even less credit than the raiders D this year.   :blush:

 
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DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Agree.  Disappointed not to see more jet sweeps, bubble screens and quick slants designed for Ruggs.
i was screaming for this, once he came back from his early season injury.  they were utilizing him, in the game he got hurt.   and it never really came back into the playbook.  very odd

 
Just what did Gruden fix in the last draft?   What about the previous draft?   I see a couple of good players obtained in 2019.   Gruden is not hitting anything out of the park.  I see a couple of doubles.  
Gruden & Mayock snagged Jacobs in 2018 and elevated Waller from the PS that same year. It is no hyperbole to say that both are instrumental in our offense. We also drafted Renfrow, who has proven his "3rd and Renfrow" moniker in the big leagues for us.

Gruden & Mayock got us some pass catchers in Ruggs and Edwards, and supplemented that with Agholor. Way too early to say what either rookie can do. A lot of people want instant results from rookies -- in a COVID-shortened/impacted preseason, even less time for rookies to get up to speed. Some do, some need a year or so to acclimate. We will see if Simpson can pan out, he was definitely serviceable in relief when we needed him, and with an aging line, we may need him. 

Bottom line is that I am willing to have patience to see if we can take that step with this young team. I thought that would be this year but our defense did us absolutely zero favors. I do believe that if this team is introspective and takes a good hard look at their late year collapse, and change the way they approach playcalling (and very specifically, 3rd down conversions and inside the ten -- we can't line up in the I 60%+ times and not utilize guys like Waller/Moreau or additional backs in the backfield to shake it up) I think we can be the team we all desperately want this Raiders to be.

You, on the other hand, seem to be looking for instant success and a turnaround on a dime. I just don't see that happening frequently in the NFL, if at all. Hit rate for draft picks in the NFL is barely better than a coin flip -- 53% for first round picks. Wanting homers on every swing is an inherently unrealistic expectation.

 
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DocHolliday

Footballguy
Gruden & Mayock snagged Jacobs in 2018 and elevated Waller from the PS that same year. It is no hyperbole to say that both are instrumental in our offense. We also drafted Renfrow, who has proven his "3rd and Renfrow" moniker in the big leagues for us.

Gruden & Mayock got us some pass catchers in Ruggs and Edwards, and supplemented that with Agholor. Way too early to say what either rookie can do. A lot of people want instant results from rookies -- in a COVID-shortened/impacted preseason, even less time for rookies to get up to speed. Some do, some need a year or so to acclimate. We will see if Simpson can pan out, he was definitely serviceable in relief when we needed him, and with an aging line, we may need him. 

Bottom line is that I am willing to have patience to see if we can take that step with this young team. I thought that would be this year but our defense did us absolutely zero favors. I do believe that if this team is introspective and takes a good hard look at their late year collapse, and change the way they approach playcalling (and very specifically, 3rd down conversions and inside the ten -- we can't line up in the I 60%+ times and not utilize guys like Waller/Moreau or additional backs in the backfield to shake it up) I think we can be the team we all desperately want this Raiders to be.

You, on the other hand, seem to be looking for instant success and a turnaround on a dime. I just don't see that happening frequently in the NFL, if at all. Hit rate for draft picks in the NFL is barely better than a coin flip -- 53% for first round picks. Wanting homers on every swing is an inherently unrealistic expectation.
Wow.   I didn’t know that expecting improvements after 3 years is expecting instant success.   Gruden has never drafted a home run.  His best draft choice is Jacobs and that was a good pick but not a great pick.   Drafting a RB in the first round when the team has more difficult holes to fill is probably not the best use of draft capital.  

The defense is just as bad now as it was when Gruden arrived and he is not even attempting to draft pieces to make it better.  The D was bad going into the draft so Gruden chose 3 WRs out of his first 4 picks!   To make matters worse, Gruden passed on the obvious WR1 for a decoy and one of the WRs isn’t even on the team.   Not sure how any of that can be defended.  

 

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
Gruden & Mayock snagged Jacobs in 2018 and elevated Waller from the PS that same year. It is no hyperbole to say that both are instrumental in our offense. We also drafted Renfrow, who has proven his "3rd and Renfrow" moniker in the big leagues for us.

Gruden & Mayock got us some pass catchers in Ruggs and Edwards, and supplemented that with Agholor. Way too early to say what either rookie can do. A lot of people want instant results from rookies -- in a COVID-shortened/impacted preseason, even less time for rookies to get up to speed. Some do, some need a year or so to acclimate. We will see if Simpson can pan out, he was definitely serviceable in relief when we needed him, and with an aging line, we may need him. 

Bottom line is that I am willing to have patience to see if we can take that step with this young team. I thought that would be this year but our defense did us absolutely zero favors. I do believe that if this team is introspective and takes a good hard look at their late year collapse, and change the way they approach playcalling (and very specifically, 3rd down conversions and inside the ten -- we can't line up in the I 60%+ times and not utilize guys like Waller/Moreau or additional backs in the backfield to shake it up) I think we can be the team we all desperately want this Raiders to be.

You, on the other hand, seem to be looking for instant success and a turnaround on a dime. I just don't see that happening frequently in the NFL, if at all. Hit rate for draft picks in the NFL is barely better than a coin flip -- 53% for first round picks. Wanting homers on every swing is an inherently unrealistic expectation.
Hi @Stompin' Tom Connors could you please send me a DM? Or email? Thanks. 

 

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