A Case For DeAngelo Williams (1 Viewer)

[Biabreakable]

People saying that DeAngelo Williams cannot break tackles and is ineffective just plain do not know what they are talking about.

Just because someone does not share your opinion doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

It does when their opinion is totally invalid and lacking truth.

He doesn't really break tackles. I don't believe he's ineffective, but I don't see him as a #1 RB. He's better off as a COP, and not a full time guy. He just can't do everything a starting RB needs to... his pass protectyion is weak (though Stewart's is worse currently) and his running up the middle isn't very good. He's got good stats up the middle on draws, but he's not a straight ahead RB by any stretch of the imagination.He's not as good as you think, nor as bad as all the naysayers.

If Williams doesen't break tackles then how do you explain his very high YPC on a pathetic offense and terrible Oline in 2007? Wish I had a clip because I have seen him break tackles before. That is not the strength of his very complete skill set but he certainly can and will do it. He is much better at making tacklers miss than he is at breaking tackles. Thats a good thing.Pass blocking has been his weakness. But as you see upthread he has corrected this during the offseason and is now blocking fine.

The facts disagree with your statement that he cannot run up the middle well. Because he does better in space does not preclude him from being effective picking through trash. He has great vision for setting up blocks and agility to work his way through traffic.

Maybe you missed what he was doing last time he had the feature role in college:

CollegeGlossary · CSV · PRE

Passing Rushing Receiving

Year Age College/Univ G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Y/A Cmp% Rate Y/G Att Yds TD Y/A Y/G Rec Yds TD Y/R

2002 19 memphis 10 103 684 5 6.6 68.4 5 51 0 10.2

2003 20 memphis 11 243 1430 10 5.9 130.0 35 384 3 11.0

2004 21 memphis 12 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 313 1948 22 6.2 162.3 18 210 1 11.7

2005 22 memphis 11 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 310 1964 18 6.3 178.5 12 78 1 6.5

44 0 2 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 969 6026 55 6.2 137.0 70 723 5 10.3

Over 300 carries and very close to 2000 yards in both 2004 and 2005 and yet you still wrongly think that this guy cannot be a feature RB? When he has performed at such a high level under less than ideal circumstances with little opportunity to do so?Sorry switz but your long standing support of DeShaun Foster removes any credibility you have on Williams imo.

 

[Biabreakable]

People saying that DeAngelo Williams cannot break tackles and is ineffective just plain do not know what they are talking about.

Just because someone does not share your opinion doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

It does when their opinion is totally invalid and lacking truth.

That is your opinion and I do not share it.

Borbely is right. Biabreakable .... this link might help you ---------> Opinion

Thats nice.He is undoubtably wrong saying that Williams does not break tackles. His being wrong about this is a FACT. And his not knowing what he is talking about in regards to DeAngelo Williams ability to break tackles and be an effective running back at the pro level is also a proven FACT because Williams has done and been both of those things.

Proven fact? Says who?

I do. Watch him play.ETA- other people in this thread were allready describing how he broke tackles in recent pre season games. I saw him do it last year also.

 

[Tau837]

Whether you are a fan of Stewart or DeAngelo (I happen to be a fan of both), you must admit that both will most likely be good and productive enough to keep the other from being a fantasy stud. I envision Stewart getting slightly under 300 carries in an ideal situation, with DeAngelo getting 50 catches and 150 carries. However, DeAngelo turned 25 in April and has 2 years left on his contract...this means that he will be 26-27 when he is entertaining offers about being a team's franchise back in 2 years. This player will get a shot to start, but unfortunately it won't be in Carolina unless Stewart has some more injury problems. Buy low on DeAngelo...he can be a decent flex until he leaves Carolina, if Stewart gets hurt he could be a #1 (and Stewart hasn't exactly been an iron man), and once he is a free agent he'll get a shot to be the focus of an offense.

Nice post but could be?Maybe your not paying attention. He is the starting RB for the Panthers.

I believe he's saying Williams could be a fantasy #1 RB if Stewart is hurt and he gets the opportunity to carry the full load.

 

[JamesTheScot]

This is excerpted from an article.

Panthers starting to notice the 'little back'

By Darin Gantt · The Herald; daringantt@carolina.rr.com

Updated 08/13/08 - 12:28 AM

SPARTANBURG -- By the time last week's preseason opener between Carolina and Indianapolis slogged to its overtime end, all anyone wanted to do was go home.

Well, everybody but DeCori Birmingham.

Birmingham managed 17 carries for 70 yards for the night, with seven runs for 33 coming in the extra session. More so than the numbers themselves were the way he gained his yards against the Colts' deep reserves, with a lean that indicated he might be capable of something against better competition. At 5-10 and 210 pounds, he's a low-cut back with good power, just the kind the Panthers love.

At 5-10 and 210 pounds, he's a low-cut back with good power, just the kind the Panthers love.

There seems to be a disconnect here somewhere. Not sure if it's between the writer and the Panther staff or between the pro-Stewart crowd and the Panther staff.

 

[switz]

People saying that DeAngelo Williams cannot break tackles and is ineffective just plain do not know what they are talking about.

Just because someone does not share your opinion doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

It does when their opinion is totally invalid and lacking truth.

He doesn't really break tackles. I don't believe he's ineffective, but I don't see him as a #1 RB. He's better off as a COP, and not a full time guy. He just can't do everything a starting RB needs to... his pass protectyion is weak (though Stewart's is worse currently) and his running up the middle isn't very good. He's got good stats up the middle on draws, but he's not a straight ahead RB by any stretch of the imagination.He's not as good as you think, nor as bad as all the naysayers.

If Williams doesen't break tackles then how do you explain his very high YPC on a pathetic offense and terrible Oline in 2007? Wish I had a clip because I have seen him break tackles before. That is not the strength of his very complete skill set but he certainly can and will do it. He is much better at making tacklers miss than he is at breaking tackles. Thats a good thing.

You answer your own question. Man, you are obstinate and unreasonable. Williams is not very good at breaking tackles. He's got good moves, and has gotten the ball frequently in favorable run situations. But he goes down pretty easy, and doesn't shed tacklers very well.Would you say Jerious Norwood "breaks tackles"? Doubtful. How about Jerome Harrison? Reggie Bush? Those are the guys that are like DeAngelo Williams. Good in space... not very effective up the middle nor breaking tackles.

You also have to realize, when people say a player "can't" do something. They don't mean it's impossible, never could be done. Rather, it's something the player does not or could not do on a regular basis. And Williams doesn't.

Pass blocking has been his weakness. But as you see upthread he has corrected this during the offseason and is now blocking fine.

Improved is different than fine. I already said he was better than Stewart - but please don't argue that he's "fine."

The facts disagree with your statement that he cannot run up the middle well. Because he does better in space does not preclude him from being effective picking through trash. He has great vision for setting up blocks and agility to work his way through traffic.

It doesn't preclude him from being good, but it also doesn't mean he is good. Sorry... he's not.

Maybe you missed what he was doing last time he had the feature role in college:

CollegeGlossary · CSV · PRE

Passing Rushing Receiving

Year Age College/Univ G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Y/A Cmp% Rate Y/G Att Yds TD Y/A Y/G Rec Yds TD Y/R

2002 19 memphis 10 103 684 5 6.6 68.4 5 51 0 10.2

2003 20 memphis 11 243 1430 10 5.9 130.0 35 384 3 11.0

2004 21 memphis 12 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 313 1948 22 6.2 162.3 18 210 1 11.7

2005 22 memphis 11 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 310 1964 18 6.3 178.5 12 78 1 6.5

44 0 2 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 969 6026 55 6.2 137.0 70 723 5 10.3

Over 300 carries and very close to 2000 yards in both 2004 and 2005 and yet you still wrongly think that this guy cannot be a feature RB? When he has performed at such a high level under less than ideal circumstances with little opportunity to do so?

Last time I checked, college competition isn't the same as the NFL. Please, you are losing credibility by drawing what he did versus inferior competition into the argument.

Sorry switz but your long standing support of DeShaun Foster removes any credibility you have on Williams imo.

And you are losing even more credibility by this. What on earth does DeShaun Foster have to do with DeAngelo Williams? Foster is in San Francisco last time I checked, and how he does has zero influence on how good or bad Williams is. Fact you fail to grasp is that for a few years while they were on the team together, Foster kept the starting job ahead of Williams. Perhaps, just perhaps, my view of Foster wasn't bias, but knowing NFL RBs a little bit better than you. You'll never hear me argue that Foster will beat out Gore - he won't. Not a chance. It's not about liking Foster therefore disliking Williams. :whoosh: It was simply a fact that while they were on the same team, Foster was the better of the two RBs, as evidenced by his continual starting ahead of Williams.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

People saying that DeAngelo Williams cannot break tackles and is ineffective just plain do not know what they are talking about.

Just because someone does not share your opinion doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

It does when their opinion is totally invalid and lacking truth.

That is your opinion and I do not share it.

Borbely is right. Biabreakable .... this link might help you ---------> Opinion

Thats nice.He is undoubtably wrong saying that Williams does not break tackles. His being wrong about this is a FACT. And his not knowing what he is talking about in regards to DeAngelo Williams ability to break tackles and be an effective running back at the pro level is also a proven FACT because Williams has done and been both of those things.

Proven fact? Says who?

I do. Watch him play.ETA- other people in this thread were allready describing how he broke tackles in recent pre season games. I saw him do it last year also.

I have seen him play and I do not agree with your opinion. Sorry, your opinion is just that....your opinion. It is definitely not a fact because you say it is, any more than it would be for me to say my opinion is a fact.

 

[Biabreakable]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

 

[sholditch]

DeCori Birmingham (born November 22, 1982 in Atlanta, Texas) is an American football running back for the Carolina Panthers of the National Football League. He was signed by the New England Patriots as an undrafted free agent in 2005. He played college football at Arkansas.

Birmingham has also been a member of the New York Jets, San Francisco 49ers, New York Giants and Indianapolis Colts.

 

[Biabreakable]

You answer your own question. Man, you are obstinate and unreasonable. Williams is not very good at breaking tackles. He's got good moves, and has gotten the ball frequently in favorable run situations. But he goes down pretty easy, and doesn't shed tacklers very well.Would you say Jerious Norwood "breaks tackles"? Doubtful. How about Jerome Harrison? Reggie Bush? Those are the guys that are like DeAngelo Williams. Good in space... not very effective up the middle nor breaking tackles.You also have to realize, when people say a player "can't" do something. They don't mean it's impossible, never could be done. Rather, it's something the player does not or could not do on a regular basis. And Williams doesn't.

Pass blocking has been his weakness. But as you see upthread he has corrected this during the offseason and is now blocking fine.

Improved is different than fine. I already said he was better than Stewart - but please don't argue that he's "fine."

The facts disagree with your statement that he cannot run up the middle well. Because he does better in space does not preclude him from being effective picking through trash. He has great vision for setting up blocks and agility to work his way through traffic.

It doesn't preclude him from being good, but it also doesn't mean he is good. Sorry... he's not.

Maybe you missed what he was doing last time he had the feature role in college:

CollegeGlossary · CSV · PRE Passing Rushing Receiving Year Age College/Univ G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Y/A Cmp% Rate Y/G Att Yds TD Y/A Y/G Rec Yds TD Y/R 2002 19 memphis 10 103 684 5 6.6 68.4 5 51 0 10.2 2003 20 memphis 11 243 1430 10 5.9 130.0 35 384 3 11.0 2004 21 memphis 12 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 313 1948 22 6.2 162.3 18 210 1 11.7 2005 22 memphis 11 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 310 1964 18 6.3 178.5 12 78 1 6.5 44 0 2 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 969 6026 55 6.2 137.0 70 723 5 10.3

Over 300 carries and very close to 2000 yards in both 2004 and 2005 and yet you still wrongly think that this guy cannot be a feature RB? When he has performed at such a high level under less than ideal circumstances with little opportunity to do so?

Last time I checked, college competition isn't the same as the NFL. Please, you are losing credibility by drawing what he did versus inferior competition into the argument.

Sorry switz but your long standing support of DeShaun Foster removes any credibility you have on Williams imo.

And you are losing even more credibility by this. What on earth does DeShaun Foster have to do with DeAngelo Williams? Foster is in San Francisco last time I checked, and how he does has zero influence on how good or bad Williams is. Fact you fail to grasp is that for a few years while they were on the team together, Foster kept the starting job ahead of Williams. Perhaps, just perhaps, my view of Foster wasn't bias, but knowing NFL RBs a little bit better than you. You'll never hear me argue that Foster will beat out Gore - he won't. Not a chance. It's not about liking Foster therefore disliking Williams. It was simply a fact that while they were on the same team, Foster was the better of the two RBs, as evidenced by his continual starting ahead of Williams.

Pure rhetoric your entire post. So you still think Foster is/was a better RB than Williams when all the facts suggest something different. That was my point and what your position has always been on this and it has always been wrong.Its seeming quite clear to me that DeAngelo Williams is going to get a lot of action this season. He plays some really tough defenses in the 1st 3 weeks. He will have to break some tackles to be successful in those games. We will find out who is full of it soon enough. I know it isn't me.

 

[ImTheScientist]

You answer your own question. Man, you are obstinate and unreasonable. Williams is not very good at breaking tackles. He's got good moves, and has gotten the ball frequently in favorable run situations. But he goes down pretty easy, and doesn't shed tacklers very well.

Would you say Jerious Norwood "breaks tackles"? Doubtful. How about Jerome Harrison? Reggie Bush? Those are the guys that are like DeAngelo Williams. Good in space... not very effective up the middle nor breaking tackles.

You also have to realize, when people say a player "can't" do something. They don't mean it's impossible, never could be done. Rather, it's something the player does not or could not do on a regular basis. And Williams doesn't.

Pass blocking has been his weakness. But as you see upthread he has corrected this during the offseason and is now blocking fine.

Improved is different than fine. I already said he was better than Stewart - but please don't argue that he's "fine."

The facts disagree with your statement that he cannot run up the middle well. Because he does better in space does not preclude him from being effective picking through trash. He has great vision for setting up blocks and agility to work his way through traffic.

It doesn't preclude him from being good, but it also doesn't mean he is good. Sorry... he's not.

Maybe you missed what he was doing last time he had the feature role in college:

CollegeGlossary · CSV · PRE

Passing Rushing Receiving

Year Age College/Univ G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Y/A Cmp% Rate Y/G Att Yds TD Y/A Y/G Rec Yds TD Y/R

2002 19 memphis 10 103 684 5 6.6 68.4 5 51 0 10.2

2003 20 memphis 11 243 1430 10 5.9 130.0 35 384 3 11.0

2004 21 memphis 12 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 313 1948 22 6.2 162.3 18 210 1 11.7

2005 22 memphis 11 0 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 310 1964 18 6.3 178.5 12 78 1 6.5

44 0 2 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 969 6026 55 6.2 137.0 70 723 5 10.3

Over 300 carries and very close to 2000 yards in both 2004 and 2005 and yet you still wrongly think that this guy cannot be a feature RB? When he has performed at such a high level under less than ideal circumstances with little opportunity to do so?

Last time I checked, college competition isn't the same as the NFL. Please, you are losing credibility by drawing what he did versus inferior competition into the argument.

Sorry switz but your long standing support of DeShaun Foster removes any credibility you have on Williams imo.

And you are losing even more credibility by this. What on earth does DeShaun Foster have to do with DeAngelo Williams? Foster is in San Francisco last time I checked, and how he does has zero influence on how good or bad Williams is. Fact you fail to grasp is that for a few years while they were on the team together, Foster kept the starting job ahead of Williams. Perhaps, just perhaps, my view of Foster wasn't bias, but knowing NFL RBs a little bit better than you. You'll never hear me argue that Foster will beat out Gore - he won't. Not a chance. It's not about liking Foster therefore disliking Williams. It was simply a fact that while they were on the same team, Foster was the better of the two RBs, as evidenced by his continual starting ahead of Williams.

Pure rhetoric your entire post. So you still think Foster is/was a better RB than Williams when all the facts suggest something different. That was my point and what your position has always been on this and it has always been wrong.

Its seeming quite clear to me that DeAngelo Williams is going to get a lot of action this season. He plays some really tough defenses in the 1st 3 weeks. He will have to break some tackles to be successful in those games. We will find out who is full of it soon enough. I know it isn't me.

Is that a fact or opinion?

 

[joffer]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

i'm on your side of this, but that clip doesn't have a lot of broken tackles in it. a few pretty good stiffarms though

 

[gianmarco]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

i'm on your side of this, but that clip doesn't have a lot of broken tackles in it. a few pretty good stiffarms though

That video didn't help your case about DWill being able to break tackles (in fact, showed the opposite, IMO). However, I also don't agree that he can't be a workhouse RB just bc he can't break tackles. And, as a point you made above, his style of play is also more suited for longevity and staying injury free. Breaking tackles is not a prerequisite to being a successful RB in the NFL nor to be the major ball carrier if you can gain yards and sustain drives which he's been quite able to do by virtue of his 1st down split stats.

 

[Biabreakable]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

i'm on your side of this, but that clip doesn't have a lot of broken tackles in it. a few pretty good stiffarms though

Maybe peoples definition of a broken tackle is different than mine. The clip starts off with one.It is a losing argument if a broken tackle means running right over a defender. That is not DeAngelo's game.

But to me a broken tackle is getting free when the defender has contact.. in reasonable position to make the tackle.. and I think DeAngelo does that plenty.

I tried searching for yards after contact but could not find one resource for this unoffical stat. If anyone knows of one I think those numbers would be telling.

As bad as Carolinas Oline has been (and may still be) any success is going to come from the running back making defenders miss tackles or breaking through them. Or at least getting yardage after contact is made.

I think DeAngelo Williams has allready proven he can do that.

I also think Fox has been looking for a more brutish RB like Stephen Davis who can get yards with defenders all over him. And that is what they drafted Stewart to do. Remians to be seen if he can do that for them or not though.

 

[switz]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

i'm on your side of this, but that clip doesn't have a lot of broken tackles in it. a few pretty good stiffarms though

Maybe peoples definition of a broken tackle is different than mine. The clip starts off with one.It is a losing argument if a broken tackle means running right over a defender. That is not DeAngelo's game.

But to me a broken tackle is getting free when the defender has contact.. in reasonable position to make the tackle.. and I think DeAngelo does that plenty.

I tried searching for yards after contact but could not find one resource for this unoffical stat. If anyone knows of one I think those numbers would be telling.

As bad as Carolinas Oline has been (and may still be) any success is going to come from the running back making defenders miss tackles or breaking through them. Or at least getting yardage after contact is made.

I think DeAngelo Williams has allready proven he can do that.

I also think Fox has been looking for a more brutish RB like Stephen Davis who can get yards with defenders all over him. And that is what they drafted Stewart to do. Remians to be seen if he can do that for them or not though.

Bolded comment the best thing you've posted in this thread. If Stewart CAN do it, Williams will be relegated to 140 or so carries. If Stewart CANNOT do it, Williams will see an increased workload. However, to argue that Williams is a bona fide #1 calibre RB is just flawed. He's not... maybe he can be given time, like it took Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook some time to work into the role. Heck, maybe even this season he'll blossom into it.

But to be absolutely convinced, and then trying to argue it as fact, based on his career so far, just doesn't work.

 

[Irish]

people are kidding themselves (disclaimer: i don't own either)DeWill looked great and good for his two games this preseason, strong, good vision and good blocking in pass protectJStew ran into the back of his lineman, looked extrememly tentative on another run basically wilting before he was going to get hit, took an off tackle play outside and got destroyed, and got MMoore nearly beheadedif you follow with the usual argument "but he was playing with the 2's" ... 1) he was facing Eagle's bench vs. DeWill facing Eagles starters and 2) Goings had a big run right when he came in the game for JStew when the coaches jerked the rook out quick deciding they wanted MMoore to survivenow saying all that, i like JStew and think he'll be good when he gets healthy, i'm not downing him at all, just saying that he needs a lil time. time that DeWill has already put in.

Stewart ran into the back of his linemen because the Philly defensive line shoved them into him. He had absolutely nowhere to run on any of his plays.

i agree, it just eerily looked like a Reggie Bush lack-of-vision on one and scared meand DeWill's burst outside after doing the same thing was much more explosive and against Philly 1's, whereas JStew just kinda went down with the pileand i just hate when the rookie back gives up the sack because they get the "can't block" label and it sticks

Stewart is talented, but in terms of breaking tackles he is more of a "looks like Tarzan plays like Jane" in that aspect.

That is Pure BS and not substantiated by Stewarts bruising college play, try again Irish. Really not typical for the Irish to make a statement that is pure bunk. I think your fishing.

What's pure BS? The part about Stewart being talented? Go back and watch a lot of tape on Stewart and you'll see that he goes down too easily for a guy his size and I don't believe he plays up to his timed speed either. He is a quality rb, but I believe he physically looks more the part of uber stud than what he shows on the field.

 

[maxwelledison]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

i'm on your side of this, but that clip doesn't have a lot of broken tackles in it. a few pretty good stiffarms though

Maybe peoples definition of a broken tackle is different than mine. The clip starts off with one.It is a losing argument if a broken tackle means running right over a defender. That is not DeAngelo's game.

But to me a broken tackle is getting free when the defender has contact.. in reasonable position to make the tackle.. and I think DeAngelo does that plenty.

I tried searching for yards after contact but could not find one resource for this unoffical stat. If anyone knows of one I think those numbers would be telling.

As bad as Carolinas Oline has been (and may still be) any success is going to come from the running back making defenders miss tackles or breaking through them. Or at least getting yardage after contact is made.

I think DeAngelo Williams has allready proven he can do that.

I also think Fox has been looking for a more brutish RB like Stephen Davis who can get yards with defenders all over him. And that is what they drafted Stewart to do. Remians to be seen if he can do that for them or not though.

Bolded comment the best thing you've posted in this thread. If Stewart CAN do it, Williams will be relegated to 140 or so carries. If Stewart CANNOT do it, Williams will see an increased workload. However, to argue that Williams is a bona fide #1 calibre RB is just flawed. He's not... maybe he can be given time, like it took Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook some time to work into the role. Heck, maybe even this season he'll blossom into it.

But to be absolutely convinced, and then trying to argue it as fact, based on his career so far, just doesn't work.

This has never been your argument against Williams, and it has not been most of his other FBG critics' argument either. Rather, to a great extent, most people have already written Williams off as a scat back or third down specialist. Those of us that have maintained that he can be an every down back have done so on the basis that he has never gotten a fair shot at the job and in his limited opportunities he has done pretty well. At the very least we have argued that the jury is still out on that question.

 

[switz]

However, to argue that Williams is a bona fide #1 calibre RB is just flawed. He's not... maybe he can be given time, like it took Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook some time to work into the role. Heck, maybe even this season he'll blossom into it.

But to be absolutely convinced, and then trying to argue it as fact, based on his career so far, just doesn't work.

This has never been your argument against Williams, and it has not been most of his other FBG critics' argument either. Rather, to a great extent, most people have already written Williams off as a scat back or third down specialist. Those of us that have maintained that he can be an every down back have done so on the basis that he has never gotten a fair shot at the job and in his limited opportunities he has done pretty well. At the very least we have argued that the jury is still out on that question.

My argument has been consistent about Williams. He has not been complete enough of an RB to be a starter.So far he has proven that point of view to be correct. He's better served as a complement. So far... and I wouldn't bet the house that he could be anything more than that. Even the way the Panthers have handled Williams indicate they share that viewpoint...

But players do learn and change...

Now is Williams chance, if Stewart doesn't pan out. However since he's been with the team, they've had a more complete RB ahead of him. Stewart may be one more RB on the list that is more complete than DA, he may not be. If he's not, DA will get a shot, and then this argument will die forever. If DA has grown, and succeeds, more power to him.

 

[JamesTheScot]

However, to argue that Williams is a bona fide #1 calibre RB is just flawed. He's not... maybe he can be given time, like it took Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook some time to work into the role. Heck, maybe even this season he'll blossom into it.

But to be absolutely convinced, and then trying to argue it as fact, based on his career so far, just doesn't work.

Nor does it work to be absolutely convinced, and then trying to argue as fact (see your bolded portion), that he isn't RB1 caliber based on his career so far.I often agree with you on things, but you have a knack for tossing out one of your "he just is" assertions-as-fact when youn run out of argument.

While you could certainly argue that Westy and Tiki took time to "work into the role" or "blossom" into it, I would simply say they could have done it from day 1 but it took time for their respective coaches to learn to trust the bulk of carries to guys on the light side of 210#. The same could be said of Warrick Dunn.

The ridiculous thing about so much of this Stewart vs. Williams debate is that Stewart gets hyped on his size and his production in college. Williams had an outstanding college career yet that gets erased by his two years in the league. People also forget that Williams goes something like 217#. People make the mistake of assuming he can't break tackles because he's short and shifty. The same was said of Barry Sanders but it was totally false.

We say it all the time NFL success is at the intersection of opportunity and ability. Williams either has the ability or he doesn't. That isn't going to change or suddenly blossom. However, opportunity may knock. When it does, we'll know which it is.

And a stiff arm is breaking a tackle, as is keeping your balance when bouncing off a tackler and so is pulling out of his grasp after contact. I don't know what some of your definitions for breaking a tackle are, but I suspect that by some of them, the only guys who have ever broken a tackle were Christian Okoye, Earl Campbell and Jim Brown.

 

[JamesTheScot]

My argument has been consistent about Williams. He has not been complete enough of an RB to be a starter.

What exactly does Stewart have that makes him a complete back that Williams lacks?I'm kinda curious what is is that you see in his college production, since that's all we have to go on, that Williams lacked in his college production. We should be comparing apples to apples, right?

 

[jurb26]

My argument has been consistent about Williams. He has not been complete enough of an RB to be a starter.

What exactly does Stewart have that makes him a complete back that Williams lacks?

A spot on, insert Stewart backer's name here, roster.

 

[switz]

My argument has been consistent about Williams. He has not been complete enough of an RB to be a starter.

What exactly does Stewart have that makes him a complete back that Williams lacks?

A spot on, insert Stewart backer's name here, roster.

Nope, I don't own Stewart. And as I said... we don't know if Stewart is or not either.

 

[BassNBrew]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Fox said having rookie running back Jonathan Stewart return kicks Saturday against Washington is an “option.”

 

[BassNBrew]

Maybe peoples definition of a broken tackle is different than mine. The clip starts off with one.

FWIW...when a guy swats at you from behind and grazes your jersey with fingernails, you have not broken a tackle.

 

[thecardiackid]

Whether you are a fan of Stewart or DeAngelo (I happen to be a fan of both), you must admit that both will most likely be good and productive enough to keep the other from being a fantasy stud. I envision Stewart getting slightly under 300 carries in an ideal situation, with DeAngelo getting 50 catches and 150 carries. However, DeAngelo turned 25 in April and has 2 years left on his contract...this means that he will be 26-27 when he is entertaining offers about being a team's franchise back in 2 years. This player will get a shot to start, but unfortunately it won't be in Carolina unless Stewart has some more injury problems. Buy low on DeAngelo...he can be a decent flex until he leaves Carolina, if Stewart gets hurt he could be a #1 (and Stewart hasn't exactly been an iron man), and once he is a free agent he'll get a shot to be the focus of an offense.

Nice post but could be?Maybe your not paying attention. He is the starting RB for the Panthers.

I believe he's saying Williams could be a fantasy #1 RB if Stewart is hurt and he gets the opportunity to carry the full load.

I don't think anyone here is forecasting DA as a #1 FF RB (top 12 NFL back). After watching some more of DA in pre-season, and understanding that Stewart is both dealing w/ lingering injury AND missing extremely valuable time getting acclimated to the playbook and the speed of the NFL game - DA will be a decent value play at least through the first half of the season.

I think the key here (and to reference the OP) is whether or not he can be effective pass blocking and picking up blitzes. If not, he'll certainly be relegated to the COP guy.

Personally, I'm in the camp that he takes advantage of the opportunity and produces well enough (if Delhomme is effective) to hang on to enough of the job to be a decent RB2 (FF) or solid flex play this season.

 

[FavreCo]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

One needs not break tackles when the D can't lay a hand on you. Vision over brute force.

 

[Banger]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

One needs not break tackles when the D can't lay a hand on you. Vision over brute force.

you need both if you want to be a top back.

 

[FavreCo]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

One needs not break tackles when the D can't lay a hand on you. Vision over brute force.

you need both if you want to be a top back.

Barry Sanders, anyone? The king of runs for losses.

 

[Banger]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

One needs not break tackles when the D can't lay a hand on you. Vision over brute force.

you need both if you want to be a top back.

Barry Sanders, anyone? The king of runs for losses.

that's where the comparison ends...

 

[BigSteelThrill]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

One needs not break tackles when the D can't lay a hand on you. Vision over brute force.

you need both if you want to be a top back.

Barry Sanders, anyone? The king of runs for losses.

 

[Native]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

One needs not break tackles when the D can't lay a hand on you. Vision over brute force.

you need both if you want to be a top back.

Barry Sanders, anyone? The king of runs for losses.

Thanks for the cool clip

 

[Don't Noonan]

people are kidding themselves (disclaimer: i don't own either)

DeWill looked great and good for his two games this preseason, strong, good vision and good blocking in pass protect

JStew ran into the back of his lineman, looked extrememly tentative on another run basically wilting before he was going to get hit, took an off tackle play outside and got destroyed, and got MMoore nearly beheaded

if you follow with the usual argument "but he was playing with the 2's" ... 1) he was facing Eagle's bench vs. DeWill facing Eagles starters and 2) Goings had a big run right when he came in the game for JStew when the coaches jerked the rook out quick deciding they wanted MMoore to survive

now saying all that, i like JStew and think he'll be good when he gets healthy, i'm not downing him at all, just saying that he needs a lil time. time that DeWill has already put in.

Stewart ran into the back of his linemen because the Philly defensive line shoved them into him. He had absolutely nowhere to run on any of his plays.

i agree, it just eerily looked like a Reggie Bush lack-of-vision on one and scared meand DeWill's burst outside after doing the same thing was much more explosive and against Philly 1's, whereas JStew just kinda went down with the pile

and i just hate when the rookie back gives up the sack because they get the "can't block" label and it sticks

Stewart is talented, but in terms of breaking tackles he is more of a "looks like Tarzan plays like Jane" in that aspect.

That is Pure BS and not substantiated by Stewarts bruising college play, try again Irish. Really not typical for the Irish to make a statement that is pure bunk. I think your fishing.

What's pure BS? The part about Stewart being talented? Go back and watch a lot of tape on Stewart and you'll see that he goes down too easily for a guy his size and I don't believe he plays up to his timed speed either. He is a quality rb, but I believe he physically looks more the part of uber stud than what he shows on the field.

Try this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2yKRVAHItU

 

[maxwelledison]

people are kidding themselves (disclaimer: i don't own either)

DeWill looked great and good for his two games this preseason, strong, good vision and good blocking in pass protect

JStew ran into the back of his lineman, looked extrememly tentative on another run basically wilting before he was going to get hit, took an off tackle play outside and got destroyed, and got MMoore nearly beheaded

if you follow with the usual argument "but he was playing with the 2's" ... 1) he was facing Eagle's bench vs. DeWill facing Eagles starters and 2) Goings had a big run right when he came in the game for JStew when the coaches jerked the rook out quick deciding they wanted MMoore to survive

now saying all that, i like JStew and think he'll be good when he gets healthy, i'm not downing him at all, just saying that he needs a lil time. time that DeWill has already put in.

Stewart ran into the back of his linemen because the Philly defensive line shoved them into him. He had absolutely nowhere to run on any of his plays.

i agree, it just eerily looked like a Reggie Bush lack-of-vision on one and scared meand DeWill's burst outside after doing the same thing was much more explosive and against Philly 1's, whereas JStew just kinda went down with the pile

and i just hate when the rookie back gives up the sack because they get the "can't block" label and it sticks

Stewart is talented, but in terms of breaking tackles he is more of a "looks like Tarzan plays like Jane" in that aspect.

That is Pure BS and not substantiated by Stewarts bruising college play, try again Irish. Really not typical for the Irish to make a statement that is pure bunk. I think your fishing.

What's pure BS? The part about Stewart being talented? Go back and watch a lot of tape on Stewart and you'll see that he goes down too easily for a guy his size and I don't believe he plays up to his timed speed either. He is a quality rb, but I believe he physically looks more the part of uber stud than what he shows on the field.

Try this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2yKRVAHItU

That is honestly some of the worst tackling I have ever seen.

 

[Don't Noonan]

people are kidding themselves (disclaimer: i don't own either)

DeWill looked great and good for his two games this preseason, strong, good vision and good blocking in pass protect

JStew ran into the back of his lineman, looked extrememly tentative on another run basically wilting before he was going to get hit, took an off tackle play outside and got destroyed, and got MMoore nearly beheaded

if you follow with the usual argument "but he was playing with the 2's" ... 1) he was facing Eagle's bench vs. DeWill facing Eagles starters and 2) Goings had a big run right when he came in the game for JStew when the coaches jerked the rook out quick deciding they wanted MMoore to survive

now saying all that, i like JStew and think he'll be good when he gets healthy, i'm not downing him at all, just saying that he needs a lil time. time that DeWill has already put in.

Stewart ran into the back of his linemen because the Philly defensive line shoved them into him. He had absolutely nowhere to run on any of his plays.

i agree, it just eerily looked like a Reggie Bush lack-of-vision on one and scared meand DeWill's burst outside after doing the same thing was much more explosive and against Philly 1's, whereas JStew just kinda went down with the pile

and i just hate when the rookie back gives up the sack because they get the "can't block" label and it sticks

Stewart is talented, but in terms of breaking tackles he is more of a "looks like Tarzan plays like Jane" in that aspect.

That is Pure BS and not substantiated by Stewarts bruising college play, try again Irish. Really not typical for the Irish to make a statement that is pure bunk. I think your fishing.

What's pure BS? The part about Stewart being talented? Go back and watch a lot of tape on Stewart and you'll see that he goes down too easily for a guy his size and I don't believe he plays up to his timed speed either. He is a quality rb, but I believe he physically looks more the part of uber stud than what he shows on the field.

Try this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2yKRVAHItU

That is honestly some of the worst tackling I have ever seen.

Agreed. Stewart is very powerful though. Check out the first clip on this one at Oklahoma as a true freshman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9EYCrliSjo&NR=1

 

[shader]

Guys this debate is getting old. If you like Deangelo, go get him. If you don't, go get Stewart.

I think virtually everybody agrees that Deangelo will get the first opportunity. This is his 3rd season, he is a number 1 draft pick himself, who hasn't had his chance to prove what he can do. So he'll get the start.

If he' ineffective, Stewart will probably start taking carries rather quickly and regulate Dwill to 3rd down status.

If he performs great, Stewart will be a short yardage, change-of-pace back and be in a backup role most of the year.

It's pretty simple and there's no reason to argue about it. Everything that can be said has been said. If you like him get him, if you don't, don't.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Guys this debate is getting old. If you like Deangelo, go get him. If you don't, go get Stewart.I think virtually everybody agrees that Deangelo will get the first opportunity. This is his 3rd season, he is a number 1 draft pick himself, who hasn't had his chance to prove what he can do. So he'll get the start.If he' ineffective, Stewart will probably start taking carries rather quickly and regulate Dwill to 3rd down status.If he performs great, Stewart will be a short yardage, change-of-pace back and be in a backup role most of the year.It's pretty simple and there's no reason to argue about it. Everything that can be said has been said. If you like him get him, if you don't, don't.

/thread

 

[Bojang0301]

Maybe peoples definition of a broken tackle is different than mine. The clip starts off with one.

FWIW...when a guy swats at you from behind and grazes your jersey with fingernails, you have not broken a tackle.

Arm tackles down... cause JJ Arrington and Reggie Bush might have something to say about them. It may not be defined as a borken tackle but picking through the garbage and following blockers to find running seams is huge in the pros and something that Williams does very, very well. If I am blind it's because I'm staring at the sun thats how obvious that is.

 

[JamesTheScot]

watch for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVWtYG3Q04

In roughly 4 min of highlites, he broke one tackle at the 2:07 mark.

One needs not break tackles when the D can't lay a hand on you. Vision over brute force.

you need both if you want to be a top back.

Barry Sanders, anyone? The king of runs for losses.

Try this one...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T4oNJJYwNU...feature=related

Some good clips of Sanders's between the tackles runs. It's amazing how he turned routine, between the tackles runs into "broken field" runs. Watch the LB's and safeties fill the hole in textbook fashion only to have him turn it into an arm tackle attempt and run through it. That clip of Lynch one-on-one in the backfield is priceless.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

Now that we've seen both Stewart and Williams run with the first team in Saturday's preseason game, to tell the truth I didn't see much difference in their respective power or tackle-breaking ability. Stewart sure took advantage of his holes and cutback lanes the same as DeAngelo did. Did I miss something?

 

[MCguidance]

Huge day for D Williams.

 

[Jambi]

Sell High

 

[Lash]

:gettingmypopcornready:

to read some of the posters who will say JStew is still "more explosive" than DeAngelo

 

[djjosee]

Sell High

 

[Team Legacy]

Since the middle of last year, I've been telling anyone who will listen about how 2008 will be DeAngelo Williams' breakout year. I sincerely believed it and still do, but it's gotten progressively harder with each passing month.

A little late to the party. There's already a President of that fan club sir, but we are looking for a new VP. I'll add you to the list.

Our office is again taking applications for the fan club... PM if interested.

 

[thehornet]

Since the middle of last year, I've been telling anyone who will listen about how 2008 will be DeAngelo Williams' breakout year. I sincerely believed it and still do, but it's gotten progressively harder with each passing month.

A little late to the party. There's already a President of that fan club sir, but we are looking for a new VP. I'll add you to the list.

Our office is again taking applications for the fan club... PM if interested.

chiefs.

 

[Jambi]

:gettingmypopcornready:to read some of the posters who will say JStew is still "more explosive" than DeAngelo

He is. Williams has been in the league a few years now. What the hell has he done?

 

[p00h]

ahhh, a FF season isn't in full effect till old threads get rehashed to help prove old predictions. Before this goes another 5 pages, let me sum up the situation in 1 line...

Either RB can go off any week, thus making neither a truly viable option on any given week. If you're weak, or for a 3rb or flex, either is servicable though...

Ok so it was 2 lines, big whoop wanna fight about it?!?!?

 

[Colt Of Personality]

sure - JStew is still "more explosive" than DeAngelo

 

[JGalligan]

:gettingmypopcornready:to read some of the posters who will say JStew is still "more explosive" than DeAngelo

He is. Williams has been in the league a few years now. What the hell has he done?

Does posting a 4.5 yard per carry average on 340 attempts count?

 

[Lash]

quick now haters ... without looking ... post all RBs in the league with over 300 career carries that have a higher YPC average than DeAngelo

on your mark, get set, go ...

:gettingmypopcornready: for the first poster that says something about "yeah but his carries are all on third down with large leads or deficits with opposing defense playing dime defense

LOL

 

[ATC1]

Anybody buying, selling? What are you getting for him?