A Comparison: Cassel vs. Thigpen (1 Viewer)

[switz]

Now, with KC trading for Matt Cassel, it's assumed that he will be the starting QB. This is probably correct, despite coaches saying Thigpen will compete for the job. But is Cassel really that much better than Thigpen? What do the numbers say?

Matt Cassel last season had Randy Moss, nearly the best WR of all time, and Wes Welker - a great slot WR, and Kevin Faulk - one of the best pass receiving backs.

Tyler Thigpen had Dwayne Bowe, a bona fide talent, Tony Gonzales, one of the best receiving TEs in history.

It's not even remotely arguable that Cassel had a far superior offensive cast to play with.

So what are the numbers?

Cassel (4th season)

16 games, 15 starts

47 sacks

327 completions, 516 passes, 63.4%

3693 yards, 21TDs, 11INTs

Thigpen (2nd season)

14 games, 11 starts

26 sacks

230 completions, 420 passes, 54.8%

2608 yards, 18TDs, 12INTs

Now there is a HUGE differential, 1000 yards difference in passing. TD to INT is very similar considering the difference in games played. Is there a way to eliminate the supporting cast, and see really how the QB stands without the effect of the WRs?

There's an interesting article at StampedeBlue which attempts to do this. Basically this is what the article does to measure QBs:

It includes nearly everything a QB does, in particular a few things that normal stats don't, and excludes something that the statistical evidence suggests that a QB doesn't really do (YAC).

ANAY/A=(PassingYards - YAC - INTs*45 - SackYards + TDs*10)/(PassAttempts+Sacks)

From this article, we learn that of Cassel's 3693 yards, 2116 came from the receivers YAC. In comparison, of Thigpen's 2608 yards, only 1101 came from YAC. That means passing yards, actual yards in the air Cassel had 1577 in 16 games, Thipen had 1507 in 14 games.The article returns a number for each QB, measuring their effectiveness. These numbers might interest those who are trying to compare Cassel versus Thigpen (or the other QBs)

The average they determined was 2.49, the higher the better.

Thigpen 2.21

Cassel 1.91

When you take the surrounding cast out, to the degree reasonable and possible - Thigpen actually measures out better than Cassel. Surprised?

 

[fridayfrenzy]

1. I noticed that QB rating was missing in your analysis.

Cassel's 89.4 rating vs Thiggy's 76.0

2. I am assuming that a significant reason for the large YAC % for Cassel was due to the WRs, but I think you also need to look at the other side of it. I think you could argue that Cassel was accurate in those mid range throws to enable the WRs to catch it in stride and get the YAC.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Check the game film on Thigpen and you will not be surprised.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

From this article, we learn that of Cassel's 3693 yards, 2116 came from the receivers YAC. In comparison, of Thigpen's 2608 yards, only 1101 came from YAC. That means passing yards, actual yards in the air Cassel had 1577 in 16 games, Thipen had 1507 in 14 games.

Is it possible that Cassell delivered his passes accurately to a spot that allowed the WR to gain yards after the catch while Thigpen's inaccurate passes required the reciever to be out of position after hauling it in?I watched quite a bit of both QBs (Cassell more) and it was obvious to me that Cassell was a better QB. He was much smarter (made better decisions) and was much more accurate. The point above was often the case from what I saw. Cassell remined me of Pennington in that he put the ball right where the WR could turn upfield and gain yards. Thigpen's passes were all over the place and required some really nice stretch and grabs from Gonzo.Both are pretty mobile - although Thigpen is the better runner.I'd agree that Cassell had the better supporting cast, but Thigpen's supporting cast was not too shabby by any means: Bowe, Gonzalez, Bradley, Johnson and Charles are all quality pass catchers.

 

[Cookiemonster]

NE's pass routes are also very complex and designed to get the WRs more YAC. Some of YAC has to do with the QB, some the WR and some the scheme. There is no way to objectively measure how much each contributes to this stat but it is a very important part of judging the QB.

 

[Boston]

From this article, we learn that of Cassel's 3693 yards, 2116 came from the receivers YAC. In comparison, of Thigpen's 2608 yards, only 1101 came from YAC. That means passing yards, actual yards in the air Cassel had 1577 in 16 games, Thipen had 1507 in 14 games.

Is it possible that Cassell delivered his passes accurately to a spot that allowed the WR to gain yards after the catch while Thigpen's inaccurate passes required the reciever to be out of position after hauling it in?I watched quite a bit of both QBs (Cassell more) and it was obvious to me that Cassell was a better QB. He was much smarter (made better decisions) and was much more accurate. The point above was often the case from what I saw. Cassell remined me of Pennington in that he put the ball right where the WR could turn upfield and gain yards. Thigpen's passes were all over the place and required some really nice stretch and grabs from Gonzo.Both are pretty mobile - although Thigpen is the better runner.I'd agree that Cassell had the better supporting cast, but Thigpen's supporting cast was not too shabby by any means: Bowe, Gonzalez, Bradley, Johnson and Charles are all quality pass catchers.

Agreed on this. A few other points:*Since Cassel had not played in live action (outside of a few snaps) in app. seven years you have to look at how his season progressed. He improved light years from the beginning of his season to the end. With the exception of the Pittsburgh game he played great ball in must win games in all types of weather in the final stretch of the season.*Can anyone name Patriot WR after Moss/Welker/Gaffney? Are Watson and Thomas considered a big time TE duo? I fully agree that Moss and Welker are special but the rest of the Patriot Wr/TE's were very pedestrian last year but in the minds of some they had Tim Brown and Steve Largent at #4 and #5 as well as Dave Casper at TE. Yes, it helped that Cassel played with Moss and Welker but it's not like he was an inaccurate QB that was being bailed out by WRs and TEs making circus catches.*Since this is a FF site I think intangibles are often overlooked. Cassel took over after the franchise went down and after a rocky start became a team leader who was in charge. His teammates had the utmost respect for him and the fact he was able to handle a tough media market flawlessly should not be overlooked. He's very mature and a hardworker which I believe is one of the reasons Pioli wanted him and McDaniel had interest as well.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Rating QBs on yards per attempt with YAC removed is not a good way to measure QBs. The most important thing a QB does is place the ball in the right spot for a receiver. I'm not a Cassel fan but this is a bunk stat that will make a QB in this system look worse than he is.

Cassel's numbers weren't great last season but Thigpen's were bad.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Cassel is def. going to do way worse if he has to throw 500 passes again.

 

[Tau837]

Rating QBs on yards per attempt with YAC removed is not a good way to measure QBs. The most important thing a QB does is place the ball in the right spot for a receiver. I'm not a Cassel fan but this is a bunk stat that will make a QB in this system look worse than he is.Cassel's numbers weren't great last season but Thigpen's were bad.

 

[crnerblitz]

Rating QBs on yards per attempt with YAC removed is not a good way to measure QBs. The most important thing a QB does is place the ball in the right spot for a receiver. I'm not a Cassel fan but this is a bunk stat that will make a QB in this system look worse than he is.Cassel's numbers weren't great last season but Thigpen's were bad.

I agree Chase. I wonder if looking at completion percentages by range would give a better insight to individual accuracy. Could the numbers be broken out by 0-5 yds, 6 -15 yards, 16 -30 yds, and 30 plus yards. Include in these the raw data of attempts also. Now, I didn't watch alot of N.E games but I recall that some talking heads said that Cassell was inacurate down field coupled with a weaker arm strength, so B.B. limited his opportunitys to get the ball vertical. like I said, I don't know this, I heard this. Since I didn't watch the games I am curious if some sort of statline could be found to refute or support this theory.

 

[Phlash]

Rating QBs on yards per attempt with YAC removed is not a good way to measure QBs. The most important thing a QB does is place the ball in the right spot for a receiver. I'm not a Cassel fan but this is a bunk stat that will make a QB in this system look worse than he is.

Cassel's numbers weren't great last season but Thigpen's were bad.

I agree Chase. I wonder if looking at completion percentages by range would give a better insight to individual accuracy. Could the numbers be broken out by 0-5 yds, 6 -15 yards, 16 -30 yds, and 30 plus yards. Include in these the raw data of attempts also. Now, I didn't watch alot of N.E games but I recall that some talking heads said that Cassell was inacurate down field coupled with a weaker arm strength, so B.B. limited his opportunitys to get the ball vertical. like I said, I don't know this, I heard this. Since I didn't watch the games I am curious if some sort of statline could be found to refute or support this theory.

Cassel does not lack arm strength - there were times he threw it deep downfield over Randy Moss's head, which is a feat in and of itself. He really learned to control the cannon later on, and his downfield passing got much better. During those two 400 yard games and during the ones after it, when his numbers started skyrocketing, it was mostly due to his ability to drop the ball in the hands of his receivers downfield.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

1. I noticed that QB rating was missing in your analysis.

Cassel's 89.4 rating vs Thiggy's 76.0

2. I am assuming that a significant reason for the large YAC % for Cassel was due to the WRs, but I think you also need to look at the other side of it. I think you could argue that Cassel was accurate in those mid range throws to enable the WRs to catch it in stride and get the YAC.

Trying to argue that Cassel is accurate would be a pretty funny argument considering his poor accuracy is one of his biggest weaknesses. Maybe you could argue that he is accurate at SHORT range passes, but once you get to mid range he was very inaccurate. Heaven forbid you go any further downfield than that and try not to cringe while watching it.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Cassel does not lack arm strength - there were times he threw it deep downfield over Randy Moss's head, which is a feat in and of itself. He really learned to control the cannon later on, and his downfield passing got much better. During those two 400 yard games and during the ones after it, when his numbers started skyrocketing, it was mostly due to his ability to drop the ball in the hands of his receivers downfield.

I didn't see much of the Miami game, but in the 400 yard effort against the Jets trying to attribute it to accurate downfield passing just seems crazy to me. That game was one of the least accurate 300+ yard passing games I've ever seen. The Jets played base man defense all game long and could not even come close to covering any of the Patriot receivers. New England's drives only ended when Cassel missed 2-3 wide open receivers in a row. Ben Watson was wide open on a 12 yard out any time they wanted it and he could only get it to him about a quarter of the time. And as a Moss owner that was watching the game for that reason, I can tell you that the downfield passing was certainly not any better. There were several times where Moss got open deep and Cassel couldn't even get the ball within 7 yards of him.He made some great reads in that game, but the downfield accuracy still wasn't great, or even good. Welker, Watson, and Faulk accounted for the vast majority of the yards in that game and none of them go very far downfield. Moss had 26 yards receiving in the game and the Pats completed one pass over 30 yards in the game and that came on a 5 yard pass that had 38 yards of YAC to go with it. The second longest pass of the night was 29 yards and that came on a screen pass to Welker.

Cassell was 2 for 10 on 15+ yard passes for the night, with the completions being a 16 and 19 yarder.

 

[switz]

Rating QBs on yards per attempt with YAC removed is not a good way to measure QBs. The most important thing a QB does is place the ball in the right spot for a receiver. I'm not a Cassel fan but this is a bunk stat that will make a QB in this system look worse than he is.

Actually the article I referenced quotes another article which shows that this rather common thinking is very very flawed.

Cassel's numbers weren't great last season but Thigpen's were bad.

I don't see that they were that much different, taking into consideration their circumstances, and what they each were asked to do.

 

[Bri]

It includes nearly everything a QB does, in particular a few things that normal stats don't, and excludes something that the statistical evidence suggests that a QB doesn't really do (YAC).

whoever said that never saw Warner or Montana play I guess

 

[Bri]

OP is really a case of someone trying to make numbers reach a predetermined conclusion.

Did someone trade Thigpen for Cassel and is trying to somehow justify it? Or is he the lone guy in KC that wants Thigpen to start?

 

[MDSkinner]

Personally I agree with the general sentiment of the post that says that Thigpen is probably as good as Cassel. Given their two circumstances, I think that what Thigpen did was probably more impressive (the Chiefs were awful this past year). I still do not understand why the Chiefs went after Cassel but at the same time what they gave up for him was not a heavy price to pay at all, so for that I get it. If I were the Chiefs I would not have made the trade but at least they only gave up their early second and they also received another player who could potentially add some leadership to a young lockerroom. Overall may not be awful for the Chiefs, but I expect that if Cassel had the O-Line that Thigpen had last year that his numbers would not look like they do (even with Moss and Welker to throw to).

All that said, I think it is silly to discount YAC. YAC is as much due to a good QB as it is to a good WR. Both sides are required to make that happen and to just throw that away seems very flawed to me. It seems to me that this is really just a matter of making the statistics work for the case, and I am comfortable with that but I do not think it is the universal truth to a matter of this sort. I don't believe that there is one.

 

[switz]

OP is really a case of someone trying to make numbers reach a predetermined conclusion.

Nope. Wrong. It was actually an article I read that the numbers came from, nothing I created to make anything result in any conclusion. If you had bothered to READ the post, you would have known that.FYI - in response to your other comment, I own neither player on any of my FF teams, and never have. If there is one player I own that is impacted by these players it's Dwayne Bowe, and in that case it would make sense for me to want Cassel to be a huge upgrade over Thigpen.

 

[Banger]

it's very easy actually Cassel's win % >>>> Thigpen therefore Cassel is better.

Seriously though, it's Cassel's job to lose. Thigpen is Billy Volek.

 

[Garts]

Thigpen makes a lot of his plays with his legs and throwing on the move. If the defence were to take that away...I wonder how good he would really be.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Rating QBs on yards per attempt with YAC removed is not a good way to measure QBs. The most important thing a QB does is place the ball in the right spot for a receiver. I'm not a Cassel fan but this is a bunk stat that will make a QB in this system look worse than he is.

Actually the article I referenced quotes another article which shows that this rather common thinking is very very flawed.

The artcile it links to really doesn't necessarily show that at all. It creates a formula that attmepts to "prove it", but in the end its just a bunch of numbers without context. Formulas cannot explain everything. For one thing that formula does not account for which passes accounted for the greatest YAC gains. It just shows that some inaccurate QBs (statistically by completion %) still had WRs that yieled high YAC or inother words completion % does correlate to YAC. However maybe it was on the passes that were completed most accurately where the greatest YAC were gained.Sometimes logic and actually watching games tells you alot more than a formula.

Once again if you actually watched either QB play its hard to argue that Thigpen is better. I don't mean that to come across as dergatory as it sounds. Thigpen may have some potential and may be a good QB some day, but often times he was a trainwreck. His passes forced Bowe and Gonzo to leaver their feet or expose themselves to big hits to make the catch.

Cassel improved tremendously as the season wore on. He even started to improve his downfield accuracy - his biggest weakness early on (still not a strong point though). On the short routes he executed very well though.

I'm not going to say having guys like Moss and Welker didn't help. That would be foolish, but if you don't think having Bowe and Gonzo didn't help Thigpen as well you are disingenous. In fact Bowe's strongest suit is his after the catch ability.

If the two are indeed allowed to battle it out in training camp in a fair comptetion, personally I don't think it will be close.

 

[switz]

Once again if you actually watched either QB play its hard to argue that Thigpen is better. I don't mean that to come across as dergatory as it sounds. Thigpen may have some potential and may be a good QB some day, but often times he was a trainwreck. His passes forced Bowe and Gonzo to leaver their feet or expose themselves to big hits to make the catch.

Having watched both, I was amazed at how many sacks Cassel took behind a better OL than what Thigpen played with. Cassel simply holds the ball too long. Thigpen made plays with his legs because he frequently was running for his life. If you watched the games you'd see that too. I don't mean that to come across as dergatory as it sounds.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Once again if you actually watched either QB play its hard to argue that Thigpen is better. I don't mean that to come across as dergatory as it sounds. Thigpen may have some potential and may be a good QB some day, but often times he was a trainwreck. His passes forced Bowe and Gonzo to leaver their feet or expose themselves to big hits to make the catch.

Having watched both, I was amazed at how many sacks Cassel took behind a better OL than what Thigpen played with. Cassel simply holds the ball too long. Thigpen made plays with his legs because he frequently was running for his life. If you watched the games you'd see that too. I don't mean that to come across as dergatory as it sounds.

That was earlier in the season while Cassell still looked at the pass rush instead of downfield - he improved in that area as well as the season went on. Don't forget he hadn't started a game since highschool at this point and was prone to "rookie mistakes".I sincerely meant I wasn't trying to be offensive with the "watching them play" comment, but was just making a point about watching them play rather than relying on a formula and stats. I see you want to turn this into something else though. No thanks, have fun.

 

[Warpig]

Just a few things to add...

Would you rather have Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Ben Watson or Dwayne "brick hands" Bowe, Tony "I am Superman" Gonzalez, and Mark Bradley?

Would you rather be a QB in an offense masterminded by Bill Belicheck or an offense masterminded by Herm "conservative" Edwards?

Would you rather have KC's offensive line or NE's?

Would you rather have a RB committee that consists of LJ, Kolby Smith, and Jamaal Charles or Laurence Maroney, Sammy Morris, and Kevin Faulk?

Would you rather have a defense like KC's or a defense like NE's?

I think Thigpen performed rather admirably considering all the above. I don't think Peyton Manning could have done much better in that offense and behind that disgusting O-line since he's not very mobile.

Atleast Thigpen performed at a high rate in college as well. What in the hell has Cassel done except caught lightning in a bottle and cashed in?

 

[gianmarco]

Cassel does not lack arm strength - there were times he threw it deep downfield over Randy Moss's head, which is a feat in and of itself. He really learned to control the cannon later on, and his downfield passing got much better. During those two 400 yard games and during the ones after it, when his numbers started skyrocketing, it was mostly due to his ability to drop the ball in the hands of his receivers downfield.

I didn't see much of the Miami game, but in the 400 yard effort against the Jets trying to attribute it to accurate downfield passing just seems crazy to me. That game was one of the least accurate 300+ yard passing games I've ever seen. The Jets played base man defense all game long and could not even come close to covering any of the Patriot receivers. New England's drives only ended when Cassel missed 2-3 wide open receivers in a row. Ben Watson was wide open on a 12 yard out any time they wanted it and he could only get it to him about a quarter of the time. And as a Moss owner that was watching the game for that reason, I can tell you that the downfield passing was certainly not any better. There were several times where Moss got open deep and Cassel couldn't even get the ball within 7 yards of him.He made some great reads in that game, but the downfield accuracy still wasn't great, or even good. Welker, Watson, and Faulk accounted for the vast majority of the yards in that game and none of them go very far downfield. Moss had 26 yards receiving in the game and the Pats completed one pass over 30 yards in the game and that came on a 5 yard pass that had 38 yards of YAC to go with it. The second longest pass of the night was 29 yards and that came on a screen pass to Welker.

Cassell was 2 for 10 on 15+ yard passes for the night, with the completions being a 16 and 19 yarder.

Probably the worst 400 yd performance put on by a QB. That was a painful game to watch.

 

[t_gunslinger]

Nope. Wrong. It was actually an article I read that the numbers came from, nothing I created to make anything result in any conclusion. If you had bothered to READ the post, you would have known that.

FYI - in response to your other comment, I own neither player on any of my FF teams, and never have. If there is one player I own that is impacted by these players it's Dwayne Bowe, and in that case it would make sense for me to want Cassel to be a huge upgrade over Thigpen.

He made some great reads in that game, but the downfield accuracy still wasn't great, or even good. Welker, Watson, and Faulk accounted for the vast majority of the yards in that game and none of them go very far downfield. Moss had 26 yards receiving in the game and the Pats completed one pass over 30 yards in the game and that came on a 5 yard pass that had 38 yards of YAC to go with it. The second longest pass of the night was 29 yards and that came on a screen pass to Welker.

Cassell was 2 for 10 on 15+ yard passes for the night, with the completions being a 16 and 19 yarder.

If he can't get the ball to Moss

How do think Bowe is going to do with a QB that has a Accuracy Problem

One would think that NE has more WR options than KC and Cassel had issues getting the ball to them.

IMO Cassel is an up grade, but I don't think he is the answer. A product of the situation in NE.

I think NE can plug in almost any QB and he would look a top QB. just my two cents

 

[t_gunslinger]

Just a few things to add...

Would you rather have Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Ben Watson or Dwayne "brick hands" Bowe, Tony "I am Superman" Gonzalez, and Mark Bradley?

Would you rather be a QB in an offense masterminded by Bill Belicheck or an offense masterminded by Herm "conservative" Edwards?

Would you rather have KC's offensive line or NE's?

Would you rather have a RB committee that consists of LJ, Kolby Smith, and Jamaal Charles or Laurence Maroney, Sammy Morris, and Kevin Faulk?

Would you rather have a defense like KC's or a defense like NE's?

I think Thigpen performed rather admirably considering all the above. I don't think Peyton Manning could have done much better in that offense and behind that disgusting O-line since he's not very mobile.

Atleast Thigpen performed at a high rate in college as well. What in the hell has Cassel done except caught lightning in a bottle and cashed in?

 

[bcr8f]

Just a few things to add...Would you rather have Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Ben Watson or Dwayne "brick hands" Bowe, Tony "I am Superman" Gonzalez, and Mark Bradley?Would you rather be a QB in an offense masterminded by Bill Belicheck or an offense masterminded by Herm "conservative" Edwards?Would you rather have KC's offensive line or NE's?Would you rather have a RB committee that consists of LJ, Kolby Smith, and Jamaal Charles or Laurence Maroney, Sammy Morris, and Kevin Faulk?Would you rather have a defense like KC's or a defense like NE's?I think Thigpen performed rather admirably considering all the above. I don't think Peyton Manning could have done much better in that offense and behind that disgusting O-line since he's not very mobile.Atleast Thigpen performed at a high rate in college as well. What in the hell has Cassel done except caught lightning in a bottle and cashed in?

Bowe and Randy Moss had the same target/catch percentage 54.8. Not good at all.

 

[Adebisi]

I don't think Peyton Manning could have done much better in that offense and behind that disgusting O-line since he's not very mobile.

So we're comparing Thigpen with Manning now? That's one way to completely destroy your credibility.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Bowe and Randy Moss had the same target/catch percentage 54.8. Not good at all.

54.8 is better than I expected given Cassell's troubles throwing downfield last year. As a Moss owner it got really old seeing him beat someone deep or have someone 1 on 1 deep and watching Cassell fling the ball 12 yards over his head and out of bounds.

 

[t_gunslinger]

Bowe and Randy Moss had the same target/catch percentage 54.8. Not good at all.

54.8 is better than I expected given Cassell's troubles throwing downfield last year. As a Moss owner it got really old seeing him beat someone deep or have someone 1 on 1 deep and watching Cassell fling the ball 12 yards over his head and out of bounds.

IMO Moss will have a GOOD year with TB back in the saddle

 

[Chase Stuart]

Rating QBs on yards per attempt with YAC removed is not a good way to measure QBs. The most important thing a QB does is place the ball in the right spot for a receiver. I'm not a Cassel fan but this is a bunk stat that will make a QB in this system look worse than he is.

Actually the article I referenced quotes another article which shows that this rather common thinking is very very flawed.

Can you explain this for me?

 

[Bri]

OP is really a case of someone trying to make numbers reach a predetermined conclusion.

Nope. Wrong. It was actually an article I read that the numbers came from, nothing I created to make anything result in any conclusion. If you had bothered to READ the post, you would have known that.FYI - in response to your other comment, I own neither player on any of my FF teams, and never have. If there is one player I own that is impacted by these players it's Dwayne Bowe, and in that case it would make sense for me to want Cassel to be a huge upgrade over Thigpen.

Now, with KC trading for Matt Cassel, it's assumed that he will be the starting QB. This is probably correct, despite coaches saying Thigpen will compete for the job. But is Cassel really that much better than Thigpen? What do the numbers say?

 

[thecardiackid]

it's very easy actually Cassel's win % >>>> Thigpen therefore Cassel is better. Seriously though, it's Cassel's job to lose. Thigpen is Billy Volek.

One was hand picked by the new genius GM, was on a team that won a lot of games last season, and is due to be paid over 14m.The other admittedly looked better than most of us expected last season (all things considered), but seems headed for the sidelines - regardless of whether or not they call it "open competition".If KC has any hope of keeping Cassel around (i.e. signing a LT extension) they're going to HAVE to put him on the field to see what he can do - outside of the NE offensive machine with all it's complimentary parts. The problems are:1. New coach, new system2. Downgraded surrounding talent (most notably the line)3. New found pressure being "the guy" to start the season4. Living up to that FAT salary (from being franchised) and the GM's expectationsI really think this will be very interesting to watch unfold. Mainly b/c I would have liked his chances a lot more (to grow into a solid NFL QB), if he'd gone to DEN and been able to stay with his OC / system (comfort factor) vs. the GM in KC.All that said, the fact that both Pioli and JMcD went out of their way to bring him along says a lot. If things go sideways - like he starts off 0-4 and gets benched - I can easily see him not signing a deal, then jumping to the safety blanket waiting w/ open arms in Denver next year.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Thigpen did well for a stretch there because Chan Gailey installed the pistol spread - it was what Thigpen felt comfortable in. Even with that good stretch, the league was starting to catch up to him by the end of the year, looking more like the struggling QB he was the first time he got in the lineup, before Croyle got hurt again and Gailey changed the offense. This is similar to when Chris Redman went from the street to being a decent fantasy QB because he was reunited with Bobby Petrino and he was playing in a system that was comfortable to him.

 

[switz]

This is similar to when ____________ went ... to being a decent fantasy QB because ... he was playing in a system that was comfortable to him.

Which QB are we talking about?

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

This is similar to when ____________ went ... to being a decent fantasy QB because ... he was playing in a system that was comfortable to him.

Which QB are we talking about?

The difference is that Cassel is staying in the system he flourished in, Thigpen isn't.

 

[DropKick]

Apparently the powers that be in KC thought Cassel was worth an early 2nd round pick. Does anything else matter?

 

[thecardiackid]

This is similar to when ____________ went ... to being a decent fantasy QB because ... he was playing in a system that was comfortable to him.

Which QB are we talking about?

The difference is that Cassel is staying in the system he flourished in, Thigpen isn't.

So I understand this correctly, the Chiefs' new GM is installing the NE "system" on offense vs. Haley's from AZ?THAT would be strange.

 

[Bad_Mo]

Thigpen makes a lot of his plays with his legs and throwing on the move. If the defence were to take that away...I wonder how good he would really be.

Good point. It seemed like Thigpen would keep drives alive with his rushing ability. Cassel can't do that as successfully as Thigpen, IMO.

 

[MDSkinner]

This is similar to when ____________ went ... to being a decent fantasy QB because ... he was playing in a system that was comfortable to him.

Which QB are we talking about?

The difference is that Cassel is staying in the system he flourished in, Thigpen isn't.

So I understand this correctly, the Chiefs' new GM is installing the NE "system" on offense vs. Haley's from AZ?THAT would be strange.

I have to agree with this, there is no way that Haley is not going to be allowed to put in his system. And though clearly it is not the NE system, it seems closer to that system than to the Pistol.

 

[cdwood]

Even if Thigpen were better suited to Haley's system than Cassel, I would expect Haley to tweak his system to adapt to Cassel's attributes. Thats what the offseason mini-camps and training camp are for, get Cassel adapted to the offense thats going to be used.

The stats may say that Thigpen had the better season than Cassel last year, I'm not going to debate the stats, but I believe the over-riding factors as to who starts are the facts that a new regime has come in and traded for a different QB, and until they restructure his deal, is on the hook for $14 million this season.

Christopher

 

[Ariakis]

Living in KC it's the 2nd team I follow closely. I was convinced Thiggy was the QB of the future. The pistol spread was to me as much a symptom of the state of the OL as to what Thigpen felt comfortable with. Their OL contributed to turning over QB's faster than TO wears out his welcome in year 2.

Along those lines, Cassel also played most of his snaps from the shotgun so it's hardly fair to penalize Thigpen who had MUCH less to work with from the OL to the WR's to the defense to the coaching staff.

Whether the Chiefs do it or not I can't say ... but they really should take an OL at 1.03 if not trade down to take OL to make it easier to take defense later. They ideally should have stood pat with Thigpen although having 2 similar QB's behind that OL means both will play.

 

[steelerfan1]

not really on topic, but if you are detroit, woUld you throw out your 3rd rounder to kc for thigpen?

could then go o-line and maybe even mack at 20 and shore up a good foundation.......

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

not really on topic, but if you are detroit, woUld you throw out your 3rd rounder to kc for thigpen?could then go o-line and maybe even mack at 20 and shore up a good foundation.......

Doubt KC does that -- it would leave Croyle as Cassel's backup. But if they wanted to sign a veteran like Leftwich, etc I could see where that trade might work.

 

[Warpig]

not really on topic, but if you are detroit, woUld you throw out your 3rd rounder to kc for thigpen?could then go o-line and maybe even mack at 20 and shore up a good foundation.......

Doubt KC does that -- it would leave Croyle as Cassel's backup. But if they wanted to sign a veteran like Leftwich, etc I could see where that trade might work.

Negative on that. Lefty just signed with the bucs on a two year deal. From what Pioli is showing recently, he'd rather bring in Jeff George or someone ancient. I find it ironic that the Hunts were on board with Herm going young last year and now Pioli is doing a total 180 and bringing in golden era players. Vrabel, Engram, and now Zach Thomas. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!!Pioli = Genius?? (sorry to be somewhat off topic)

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

not really on topic, but if you are detroit, woUld you throw out your 3rd rounder to kc for thigpen?could then go o-line and maybe even mack at 20 and shore up a good foundation.......

Doubt KC does that -- it would leave Croyle as Cassel's backup. But if they wanted to sign a veteran like Leftwich, etc I could see where that trade might work.

Negative on that. Lefty just signed with the bucs on a two year deal. From what Pioli is showing recently, he'd rather bring in Jeff George or someone ancient. I find it ironic that the Hunts were on board with Herm going young last year and now Pioli is doing a total 180 and bringing in golden era players. Vrabel, Engram, and now Zach Thomas. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!!Pioli = Genius?? (sorry to be somewhat off topic)

At this point, I think most KC fans are trusting Pioli @ Co. -- at least you know what u get with vets. I would rather run Vrabel, Beisel and Z. Thomas @ LB than Pat Thomas and Rocky Boiman

 

[Ariakis]

When KC drafts an OT instead of Monroe I'll bump a few of the threads I've been saying forever that's not the plan. I'm sure they will take LB's in the draft but Hali, Vrabel, DJ, and Thomas isn't a bad group as they groom a few mid-round replacements behind them. This may even move Raji up their board. While I wouldn't rule out Curry I just don't see it at #3. If they could trade down and he was still there then he'd be a great choice. One of the pass rushing DE's a little later would be ideal but they'd have to find a trade partner first. Without doing that, I'm standing by my opinion it'll be an OT.

Zach Thomas-LB- Chiefs Apr. 12 - 7:25 pm etZach Thomas' contract with the Chiefs is for one year and $2 million.There's no word on the guarantee, but the Chiefs appear to be paying Thomas as a starter. He'll line up next to Derrick Johnson inside with Tamba Hali and Mike Vrabel outside. We're guessing they won't be drafting a linebacker early in the draft.Source: Profootballtalk.com

 

[The Jacket]

I find it ironic that the Hunts were on board with Herm going young last year and now Pioli is doing a total 180 and bringing in golden era players. Vrabel, Engram, and now Zach Thomas. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!!

You just can't win in the NFL by running a bunch of rookies out there, no matter how talented they're supposed to be. You've gotta have some leadership, experience, etc. Those three players in particular bring a combination of personal accolades, playoff and Super Bowl experience, scheme versatility, etc. They're all on short deals and are generally in place to be coaches on the field. Engram will be the third/slot WR; not enough to take away from a guy like D-Bowe, but enough to show the lesser/younger guys how to run crisp routes, get seperation even if you're not as talented as the opposing CB, etc. Ditto Thomas and Vrabel in their respective tasks.

 

[Jeff Tefertiller]

I find it ironic that the Hunts were on board with Herm going young last year and now Pioli is doing a total 180 and bringing in golden era players. Vrabel, Engram, and now Zach Thomas. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!!

You just can't win in the NFL by running a bunch of rookies out there, no matter how talented they're supposed to be. You've gotta have some leadership, experience, etc. Those three players in particular bring a combination of personal accolades, playoff and Super Bowl experience, scheme versatility, etc. They're all on short deals and are generally in place to be coaches on the field. Engram will be the third/slot WR; not enough to take away from a guy like D-Bowe, but enough to show the lesser/younger guys how to run crisp routes, get seperation even if you're not as talented as the opposing CB, etc. Ditto Thomas and Vrabel in their respective tasks.

I would also think that the pressure to win soon with new coaches and front office may make a difference. IMO, we underestimate the pressure for the 2009 new coaches after the 2008 rookie coaches did so well (Harbaugh, Mike Smith, Sparano, and even Zorn had the Skins hot at the beginning of the season). This may cause teams to try to win more instead of going into full-blown rebuild mode as some have done in the past. There definitely seems to be less of a leash in recent years.