A.J. Hawk vs. Mario Williams (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

Great article here regarding the tough choice Green Bay might have -- Hawk vs. Williams.

Also found this while researching: The '99 scouting report on Andy Katzenmoyer.

Nobody has more ability at their position than "the big Kat". He is a rare combination of size, speed and athletic ability and this is a guy that loves to play the game. In fact, part of his problem is that football appears to be the only important thing in his life and as a result, he has struggled in the classroom and off the field. He dominated for the Buckeyes as a freshman and sophomore, but as a junior, for some strange reason, he did not seem to play up to his potential and make the big plays that he did earlier in this career. He is a "no nonsense" kind of player that flies to the football, certainly has range and has enough AA to drop into coverage and he should become an outstanding blitzer from his position. As good as he is, he doesn't appear to be a real instinctive or intelligent player and at times, he lets his emotions get the best of him. Even though he has taken a little bit of a dip in '98, there is a lot to love about this guy and he will test athletically as good as anybody every has at this position. When it is all said and done, if people are comfortable with Katzenmoyer as a person, he will be a high 1st round pick.

LINKMuch of that sounds like it could have been written about fellow Buckeye A.J. Hawk. Good thing for Hawk that he's not a total moron. Kat ended up being selected by New England at 1.28. That seemed to be a pretty big drop after his first two seasons at Ohio State. Brent Musburger, for instance, could not get Katzenmoyer's male appendage out of his mouth for three seasons at OSU. Kat's draft grade was a 7.35, which IINM falls into the "future Pro Bowl player" category. Obviously injuries derailed his career, but is Hawk THAT much more of a can't-miss prospect than Kat was?

 

[radballs.]

I'm not getting how you're drawing that conclusion although I haven't heard that much about Hawk off of the field. I'd be thrilled as a Raider fan if either Mario or AJ are there for us. I'll be pissed if we take VY which a lot of recent mocks are proposing. I don't want any Day 1 offensive players and if Vince Young is the BP available at our pick, we should trade down.

 

[Mr. Vegas]

I'm not getting how you're drawing that conclusion although I haven't heard that much about Hawk off of the field. I'd be thrilled as a Raider fan if either Mario or AJ are there for us. I'll be pissed if we take VY which a lot of recent mocks are proposing. I don't want any Day 1 offensive players and if Vince Young is the BP available at our pick, we should trade down.

Cutler.

 

[Raider Nation]

I'm not getting how you're drawing that conclusion although I haven't heard that much about Hawk off of the field. I'd be thrilled as a Raider fan if either Mario or AJ are there for us. I'll be pissed if we take VY which a lot of recent mocks are proposing. I don't want any Day 1 offensive players and if Vince Young is the BP available at our pick, we should trade down.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm making the comparisons regarding the glowing parts of Kat's scouting report. That's why I pointed out that it's a good thing Hawk isn't a moron (like Kat was, in other words)....I disagree about VY. While there's no question we need defensive help BADLY, Young has a chance to be a special player. At the very least, maybe he'll make the Raiders watchable again sometime in the near future.

 

[Kub]

I think the Raiders need to select Williams, Hawk, or Ngata, but I have to admit that deep down I would love to be able to root for VY as the Raider QB.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Not an Ohio State fan, but living in Ohio and watching some of their games, Katzenmoyer did not impress me like Hawk has as a player. Being in 2 IDP leagues, I wanted no part of Katzenmoyer, but am looking to get Hawk in the 1st round of my rookie drafts.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Vernon Davis to Green Bay.

 

[Raider Nation]

Vernon Davis to Green Bay.

That would certainly makes Favre's decision a little easier.They could probably also trade down 2 or 3 spots and still get that done.

 

[Donnybrook]

If the Jets can get this Abraham-Shaub trade done, will Green Bay even get the opportunity to make that choice? Jets could take Super Mario as Abraham’s replacement. No?

 

[Biabreakable]

I think Mario may be taken by the Saints with pick 2. That is who I would take over ANY of these other players. If I was the Texans too.

 

[Bojang0301]

Imagine Brian Urlacher with better ability to shed blockers and you have AJ Hawk. No way I would pass him up.

 

[-OZ-]

I think Mario may be taken by the Saints with pick 2. That is who I would take over ANY of these other players. If I was the Texans too.

Saints fans would love to see them take another DE.Both seem like the top prospect at their positions in recent years, almost "can't miss" type talent. If I'm Green Bay, I take Hawk just because their DEs aren't horrible right now.

The Jets would probably take Mario if they get Schaub/Abe done. That's probably a large part of their interest in that trade.

 

[Carnifex]

Imagine Brian Urlacher with better ability to shed blockers and you have AJ Hawk. No way I would pass him up.

You honestly think Urlacher is WORSE than some guy who hasn't played a down in the NFL?

 

[Bojang0301]

Imagine Brian Urlacher with better ability to shed blockers and you have AJ Hawk. No way I would pass him up.

You honestly think Urlacher is WORSE than some guy who hasn't played a down in the NFL?

I don't think I would dare say that but that is his ceiling, yes.

 

[sho nuff]

Vernon Davis to Green Bay.

Yeah...cause that is the need on the Packers...a TE. They have 3 currently on the roster. While I think Davis can be better than all three of them...it is simply not a position of need at this point.

 

[Pipes]

I don't get comparing Katz and Hawk anyway. Why, cause they went to the same school? That's just dumb. I used to hear that Penn State RB's stunk...then came Larry Johnson.

 

[Nihilist Pig]

I don't get comparing Katz and Hawk anyway. Why, cause they went to the same school? That's just dumb. I used to hear that Penn State RB's stunk...then came Larry Johnson.

Agreed. Katzenmoyer has no more to do with scouting Hawk than the college careers of Lawrence Taylor or Lavar Arrington do. AK and Hawk didn't even play in the same system. A shared uniform is not a genetic trait.

 

[saintfool]

I think Mario may be taken by the Saints with pick 2. That is who I would take over ANY of these other players. If I was the Texans too.

Why would he be taken by the Saints? They have two young, productive DE's in Will smith and Charles Grant. They combined for 11 sacks last season and plenty of tackles. They do not need another DE, having let Darren Howard leave is evidence of that. Hawk would be my first choice on the defensive side, if I were the Saints. If I decide to go with offense, it's D'Brick.

 

[cstu]

Great article here regarding the tough choice Green Bay might have -- Hawk vs. Williams.

Also found this while researching: The '99 scouting report on Andy Katzenmoyer.

Nobody has more ability at their position than "the big Kat". He is a rare combination of size, speed and athletic ability and this is a guy that loves to play the game. In fact, part of his problem is that football appears to be the only important thing in his life and as a result, he has struggled in the classroom and off the field. He dominated for the Buckeyes as a freshman and sophomore, but as a junior, for some strange reason, he did not seem to play up to his potential and make the big plays that he did earlier in this career. He is a "no nonsense" kind of player that flies to the football, certainly has range and has enough AA to drop into coverage and he should become an outstanding blitzer from his position. As good as he is, he doesn't appear to be a real instinctive or intelligent player and at times, he lets his emotions get the best of him. Even though he has taken a little bit of a dip in '98, there is a lot to love about this guy and he will test athletically as good as anybody every has at this position. When it is all said and done, if people are comfortable with Katzenmoyer as a person, he will be a high 1st round pick.

LINKMuch of that sounds like it could have been written about fellow Buckeye A.J. Hawk. Good thing for Hawk that he's not a total moron. Kat ended up being selected by New England at 1.28. That seemed to be a pretty big drop after his first two seasons at Ohio State. Brent Musburger, for instance, could not get Katzenmoyer's male appendage out of his mouth for three seasons at OSU. Kat's draft grade was a 7.35, which IINM falls into the "future Pro Bowl player" category. Obviously injuries derailed his career, but is Hawk THAT much more of a can't-miss prospect than Kat was?

Katzenmoyer did start his rookie year after Ted Johnson was hurt and had a decent year.Here's a quote from midway through his rookie year:

Pats inside linebacker Andy Katzenmoyer hasn't made anyone forget about Ted Johnson. Not yet, at least. Through seven games, Katzenmoyer has racked up 51 tackles, which is second to Lawyer Milloy (63).

And while the rookie hasn't exactly embarrassed himself, he's been starting to show up on the opposition's radar screen. Why? Katzenmoyer ranks near the top of the league in negative plays. He's made eight tackles that have gone for zero or negative yardage, to go along with 2.5 sacks (Johnson had two sacks last year in 13 games). Katzenmoyer's stats compare very favorably with those of several other high-profile inside linebackers. Through six games, the Dolphins' Zach Thomas has 50 tackles, one sack and five negative plays. The Ravens' Ray Lewis, through six games, leads the league with 76 tackles, two sacks and three negative plays. The Chargers' Junior Seau has 44 tackles, three sacks and 5.5 negative plays in the first six games. And, finally, the Steelers' Levon Kirkland has 46 tackles, one sack and 4.5 negative plays in seven games.

"I'm still learning every day and every time I watch film, I'm learning something new," said Katzenmoyer. "It's going to be a matter of time, but I'm still not happy with my play up until this point. The things I'm working on are coverage things, and sometimes I overcompensate. I try to do too much. If I screw up on the field, you'll know because you can tell by my emotions. I'll just put my head down, smacking my helmet ... something. I take it personally. I'm learning every week, every day.

"It was rough at first, but I'd rather be in there playing and learning."

The biggest problems with Katzenmoyer before he was drafted were his two (that I know of) DUI's in college and problems passing classes, even golf and music. Talent wasn't his problem, but he didn't have the head to be a MLB. His neck injuries ended his career or he would probably still be playing. I was a Patriots fan (Bledsoe) in those days and thought Katz was a steal. LB's usually take time to play well in the NFL but Katz stepped in a did a solid job, ending up with 3.5 sacks, 14 tackles for a loss and an INT.

 

[Rozelle]

Great article here regarding the tough choice Green Bay might have -- Hawk vs. Williams.

Also found this while researching: The '99 scouting report on Andy Katzenmoyer.

Nobody has more ability at their position than "the big Kat". He is a rare combination of size, speed and athletic ability and this is a guy that loves to play the game. In fact, part of his problem is that football appears to be the only important thing in his life and as a result, he has struggled in the classroom and off the field. He dominated for the Buckeyes as a freshman and sophomore, but as a junior, for some strange reason, he did not seem to play up to his potential and make the big plays that he did earlier in this career. He is a "no nonsense" kind of player that flies to the football, certainly has range and has enough AA to drop into coverage and he should become an outstanding blitzer from his position. As good as he is, he doesn't appear to be a real instinctive or intelligent player and at times, he lets his emotions get the best of him. Even though he has taken a little bit of a dip in '98, there is a lot to love about this guy and he will test athletically as good as anybody every has at this position. When it is all said and done, if people are comfortable with Katzenmoyer as a person, he will be a high 1st round pick.

LINKMuch of that sounds like it could have been written about fellow Buckeye A.J. Hawk. Good thing for Hawk that he's not a total moron. Kat ended up being selected by New England at 1.28. That seemed to be a pretty big drop after his first two seasons at Ohio State. Brent Musburger, for instance, could not get Katzenmoyer's male appendage out of his mouth for three seasons at OSU. Kat's draft grade was a 7.35, which IINM falls into the "future Pro Bowl player" category. Obviously injuries derailed his career, but is Hawk THAT much more of a can't-miss prospect than Kat was?

The big difference between the two are the instincts. From what I've seen of Hawk, he is very instinctive. Usually, and espcially at the LB position, good instincts can trump athletic ability and lack of size, (see Tatupu, the most recent example). From as FF perspective...I've been doing the IDP longer than most have been doing FF (23 years) BTW, I'm not claiming to be an expert or nothing like that, but from my experience, if you draft LB's with good / great instincts, your success rate with be much higher...trust me. And... if you can get a guy who has great instincts and is so-called athletic, then you have the possiblity of a Ray Lewis / Zach Thomas type. In 2004 Vilma fit the Lewis/Thomas profile. IMO Hawk also fits the bill.

 

[Men-in-Cleats]

Imagine Brian Urlacher with better ability to shed blockers and you have AJ Hawk. No way I would pass him up.

You honestly think Urlacher is WORSE than some guy who hasn't played a down in the NFL?

No, I think he's saying that Hawk has the POTENTIAL to be better than Urlacher. He didn't say which he'd rather have now.

 

[Raider Nation]

I don't get comparing Katz and Hawk anyway. Why, cause they went to the same school?

I didn't really compare their respective ability, FWIW. If you read the last line of my original post, I wondered if Hawk really is more of a can't-miss prospect than Kat.Evidently, he is.

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

The moves that are being made now are really clouding the situation. I'm wondering if Williams will even be on the board at 5? And, I'm not sure drafting a linebacker top five is wise? I'm leaning toward hoping for a trade down for Green Bay at this point.

 

[Tony Jabroni]

The moves that are being made now are really clouding the situation. I'm wondering if Williams will even be on the board at 5? And, I'm not sure drafting a linebacker top five is wise? I'm leaning toward hoping for a trade down for Green Bay at this point.

Obviously, the recent QB shake-up could potentially screw up the Pack's plans. BUT, if AJ Hawk is still on the board at 5 with Super Mario already gone, this is a no-brainer, IMO. The guy is a tank and has publically stated he would thoroughly love to play in GB.Barnett and Hawk is the start of one INTENSE LB corps.

 

[Kleck.]

The moves that are being made now are really clouding the situation. I'm wondering if Williams will even be on the board at 5? And, I'm not sure drafting a linebacker top five is wise? I'm leaning toward hoping for a trade down for Green Bay at this point.

Obviously, the recent QB shake-up could potentially screw up the Pack's plans. BUT, if AJ Hawk is still on the board at 5 with Super Mario already gone, this is a no-brainer, IMO. The guy is a tank and has publically stated he would thoroughly love to play in GB.Barnett and Hawk is the start of one INTENSE LB corps.

Agree with both. The situation definitely isn't as clear as it was earlier, but that could change again. And assuming Mario, DBrick, Bush, and Leinart are gone, Hawk would be the top on my list if they stay put. I wouldn't mind seeing them trade down, but moving out of the #5 where there some real elite talent better be a can't turn down kind of deal.

 

[cstu]

The moves that are being made now are really clouding the situation. I'm wondering if Williams will even be on the board at 5? And, I'm not sure drafting a linebacker top five is wise? I'm leaning toward hoping for a trade down for Green Bay at this point.

Not a lot of LB's have been picked in the top 5, but there's a decent track record on the first round LBs. The number just to the left of their name is where they were drafted overall.

2005	1	1	12  12  Shawne Merriman	Chargers	Maryland  2	1	15	15	Derrick O. Johnson	Chiefs	Texas2004	1	1	12	12	Jonathan Vilma	Jets	Miami (FL)  2	1	17	17	D.J. Williams	Broncos	Miami (FL)2003	1	1	29	29	Nick Barnett	Packers	Oregon State2002	1	1	23	23	Napoleon Harris	Raiders	Northwestern  2	1	31	31	Robert Thomas	Rams	UCLA2001	1	1	11	11	Dan Morgan	Panthers	Miami (FL)2000	1	1	2	2	LaVar Arrington	Redskins	Penn State  2	1	9	9	Brian Urlacher	Bears	New Mexico  3	1	13	13	John Abraham	Jets	South Carolina  4	1	16	16	Julian Peterson	49ers	Michigan State  5	1	28	28	Rob Morris	Colts	Brigham Young  6	1	30	30	Keith Bulluck	Titans	Syracuse1999	1	1	9	9	Chris Claiborne	Lions	USC  2	1	16	16	Jevon Kearse	Oilers	Florida  3	1	28	28	Andy Katzenmoyer	Patriots	Ohio State  4	1	31	31	Al Wilson	Broncos	Tennessee1998	1	1	12	12	Keith Brooking	Falcons	Georgia Tech  2	1	13	13	Takeo Spikes	Bengals	Auburn  3	1	15	15	Anthony Simmons	Seahawks	Clemson  4	1	17	17	Brian Simmons	Bengals	North Carolina1997	1	1	8	8	James Farrior	Jets	Virginia  2	1	20	20	Dwayne Rudd	Vikings	Alabama1996	1	1	2	2	Kevin Hardy	Jaguars	Illinois  2	1	15	15	John Mobley	Broncos	Kutztown (PA)  3	1	17	17	Reggie Brown	Lions	Texas A&M  4	1	26	26	Ray Lewis	Ravens	Miami (FL)

 

[Sabertooth]

The moves that are being made now are really clouding the situation. I'm wondering if Williams will even be on the board at 5? And, I'm not sure drafting a linebacker top five is wise? I'm leaning toward hoping for a trade down for Green Bay at this point.

Not a lot of LB's have been picked in the top 5, but there's a decent track record on the first round LBs. The number just to the left of their name is where they were drafted overall.

2005	1	1	12  12  Shawne Merriman	Chargers	Maryland  2	1	15	15	Derrick O. Johnson	Chiefs	Texas2004	1	1	12	12	Jonathan Vilma	Jets	Miami (FL)  2	1	17	17	D.J. Williams	Broncos	Miami (FL)2003	1	1	29	29	Nick Barnett	Packers	Oregon State2002	1	1	23	23	Napoleon Harris	Raiders	Northwestern  2	1	31	31	Robert Thomas	Rams	UCLA2001	1	1	11	11	Dan Morgan	Panthers	Miami (FL)2000	1	1	2	2	LaVar Arrington	Redskins	Penn State  2	1	9	9	Brian Urlacher	Bears	New Mexico  3	1	13	13	John Abraham	Jets	South Carolina  4	1	16	16	Julian Peterson	49ers	Michigan State  5	1	28	28	Rob Morris	Colts	Brigham Young  6	1	30	30	Keith Bulluck	Titans	Syracuse1999	1	1	9	9	Chris Claiborne	Lions	USC  2	1	16	16	Jevon Kearse	Oilers	Florida  3	1	28	28	Andy Katzenmoyer	Patriots	Ohio State  4	1	31	31	Al Wilson	Broncos	Tennessee1998	1	1	12	12	Keith Brooking	Falcons	Georgia Tech  2	1	13	13	Takeo Spikes	Bengals	Auburn  3	1	15	15	Anthony Simmons	Seahawks	Clemson  4	1	17	17	Brian Simmons	Bengals	North Carolina1997	1	1	8	8	James Farrior	Jets	Virginia  2	1	20	20	Dwayne Rudd	Vikings	Alabama1996	1	1	2	2	Kevin Hardy	Jaguars	Illinois  2	1	15	15	John Mobley	Broncos	Kutztown (PA)  3	1	17	17	Reggie Brown	Lions	Texas A&M  4	1	26	26	Ray Lewis	Ravens	Miami (FL)

Some impact type talent there. I wonder who would have a bigger impact for Green Bay, Mario or Hawk. Or even Vernon Davis for that matter. I doubt Green Bay goes TE, but Ted Thompson will draft the BPA regardless of offense or defense in my opinion. DeAngelo Williams might be a target as well, remember the Packers didn't exactly commit to Ahman Green and the only have Gado after him.

 

[crimsonrebel]

I've heard talk the saints will trade the #2 pick to the jets, and take Hawk at the #4 spot. anyone else heard this?

 

[Weiner Dog]

I've heard talk the saints will trade the #2 pick to the jets, and take Hawk at the #4 spot. anyone else heard this?

Nope, but makes complete sense. If the Jets really want Leinhart, they will need to leap-frog Norman Chow and the Titans.

 

[BlackHole]

I'm not getting how you're drawing that conclusion although I haven't heard that much about Hawk off of the field. I'd be thrilled as a Raider fan if either Mario or AJ are there for us. I'll be pissed if we take VY which a lot of recent mocks are proposing. I don't want any Day 1 offensive players and if Vince Young is the BP available at our pick, we should trade down.

I disagree. I'd love to see Leinart drafted by the Raiders, or Cutler. VY is going back up the draft boards now and I'd love to have him off the board before we pick, thus allowing a Cutler/Hawk/Leinart type to POSSIBLY drop to us. This being said, my first preference is Hawk. The comparisons to Urlacher is dead on IMO. The Raiders would be well served to have a true LB of this quality for 10+ years.

Basically, AJ, Leinart or Cutler and I am a happy man on draft day.

 

[sho nuff]

I've heard talk the saints will trade the #2 pick to the jets, and take Hawk at the #4 spot. anyone else heard this?

Nope, but makes complete sense. If the Jets really want Leinhart, they will need to leap-frog Norman Chow and the Titans.

After trading for Ramsey...not so sure they will want to give up more picks to move up again.And people...you are all making too much of a deal about Chow being from USC. He has no real power when it comes to the draft. It is the Reese show with some input from Fisher.

 

[Raider Nation]

I'm not getting how you're drawing that conclusion although I haven't heard that much about Hawk off of the field. I'd be thrilled as a Raider fan if either Mario or AJ are there for us. I'll be pissed if we take VY which a lot of recent mocks are proposing. I don't want any Day 1 offensive players and if Vince Young is the BP available at our pick, we should trade down.

I disagree. I'd love to see Leinart drafted by the Raiders, or Cutler. VY is going back up the draft boards now and I'd love to have him off the board before we pick, thus allowing a Cutler/Hawk/Leinart type to POSSIBLY drop to us. This being said, my first preference is Hawk. The comparisons to Urlacher is dead on IMO. The Raiders would be well served to have a true LB of this quality for 10+ years.

Basically, AJ, Leinart or Cutler and I am a happy man on draft day.

Leinart? Still on the board at 1.07???I'm on record as saying he'll be a subpar pro, but there's NO WAY he's there @ 7.

 

[saintfool]

I've heard talk the saints will trade the #2 pick to the jets, and take Hawk at the #4 spot. anyone else heard this?

Nope, but makes complete sense. If the Jets really want Leinhart, they will need to leap-frog Norman Chow and the Titans.

After trading for Ramsey...not so sure they will want to give up more picks to move up again.

the ramsey trade, to me, seems to quell any notion that the jets will try to make a play for the saints 1.2 spot. moreover, the simmons (LB) signing makes me think that the saints will not make a play for hawk now. they signed fujita last week and now simmons. my gut tells me d'brick is who they grab at 1.2, unless they get an offer from someone other than the jets.

 

[cosmonaut]

I think the Raiders need to select Williams, Hawk, or Ngata, but I have to admit that deep down I would love to be able to root for VY as the Raider QB.

As a Lions fan, deep down I want to root for VY as the Raiders QB, because if Al Davis doesn't take the best available athlete, then I know who might...

 

[Mad Cow]

The biggest problem with Kat, as has been said, is that he is a frigging MORON. My sister had a couple of classes with him in HS. He is about 4 IQ points shy of a McDonald's Double Cheeseburger.