A Parenting Conundrum (1 Viewer)

[mr. furley]

this comes up from time to time at the furley house

i'm a firm believer in fairness and letting the kids learn from their mistakes without blowing my top every time something happens. there are warnings and explanations of consequence if said bad behavior continues and the kids understand. they listen and are just good kids. however, if the same behavior is repeated over and over again there comes a point where a line is drawn.

mrs. furley on the other hand believes that incidents are not connected no matter their similarity. which means that either blowing one's top at EACH incident is required or never saying anything even if the same behavior has happened exactly the same way 10 days in a row. 

she likes to say "you can't keep bringing up the past"

what say you?

do you treat each incident as an isolated event and not look at past behavior?  or do you pay attention to the storyline and react accordingly?

 

[El Floppo]

both. sorry.

but if I see a pattern forming, I'll let the kid now it's not acceptable and why,  and then explain what's going to happen (consequence/punishment) the next time they do it.

blowing up at them is usually because of non-related (to them) internal pressures (of my own). I try not to get there- but it happens from time to time. 

 

[mr. furley]

both. sorry.

i'll bring lunch when i'm through in July.

sandwiches.

knuckle sandwiches

 

[El Floppo]

tbh, gb furls, I didn't read anything you wrote.

you know I've got your back here.

 

[Polish Hammer]

I believe in a blend.  Address the current issue.  However, if it is repetitive and has already been punished before, the punishment should increase each time it is the same infraction.  My opinion is that if they are consistently breaking the same rule then the previous punishment didn't create enough of a set of guardrails to diminish the desire for the behavior.  Raise the bar until they realize they simply can't do it anymore.

Having a kid with ADHD/Aspergers has taught me to be understanding and lenient, but also consistent and firm.  There may also be a point with a particular behavior where you have been raising the punishment bar higher and higher without a change in behavior.  Then you may need to pull back and reevaluate if there is some other underlying cause/behavior that is not allowing them to properly decide about this issue and address that greater concern.  Hope that makes sense.  

 

[Bull Dozier]

Age?  I think it depends on the age a lot.  The older the kid the more I would go for the "trend" strategy.  The younger the kid, the more I think you need to treat every instance the same, or similarly.

However, consistency is one of my bedrock principle's for effective parenting.  Not that I was always able to achieve it myself, but I sure tried.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Spare the rod spoil the child...

I had a student who was so smart but got in lots of trouble and when I spoke to mom she says "What would you have me do, beat him?" I just simply responded he has no worry about getting in trouble with mom n dad, some type of correction needs to happen. 

Now I don't know what happened actually but he was the most well behaved student for me the rest of the way.  

 

[Chadstroma]

Depends on the specifics.

What I mean by that is if my 5 year old daughter is handing my 6 month old son a bottle of glue to play with.... she is going to get in trouble right away without any priors.

If my soon to be 3 year old son is kicking my headrest into my head... I am going to gently ask him to stop and multiples of the same thing will either get a reminder or progressively more in trouble. How much of severity between 'reminder' and 'in trouble' depends on the length of time between transgressions and response. This most recent was in big trouble because he kept doing it essentially to show he was not happy.

Based on actual events this weekend. The names were withheld to protect the guilty parties.

 

[mr. furley]

If my soon to be 3 year old son is kicking my headrest into my head... I am going to scoop slam him on to the bed, put him in a sleeper hold and then make pancakes while we laugh about how i got lucky and next time he won't be taking any prisoners

ftfy

 

[cstu]

do you treat each incident as an isolated event and not look at past behavior?  or do you pay attention to the storyline and react accordingly?

If your goal is to change behavior then you punish each event separately.  Think about it - if you are not being punished until you reach a cumulative number of mistakes then what incentive is there for you to stop making any mistakes at all?

 

[Chadstroma]

ftfy

A little hard to do since the headrest is the one in the car.

 

[mr. furley]

A little hard to do since the headrest is the one in the car.

#triggered

my little ####s precious little angels do this to me sometimes. it's like a needle in the eyeball.

 

[mr. furley]

If your goal is to change behavior then you punish each event separately.  Think about it - if you are not being punished until you reach a cumulative number of mistakes then what incentive is there for you to stop making any mistakes at all?

if you never know what will get you punished since everything seemingly does without warning, why not just do what you want?

imo, kids understand boundary and expectations far more than they do getting "corrected" for everything they do

 

[RUSF18]

No kids here yet so you can tell me to GFM but I can't imagine a "one size fits all" approach ever works. 

 

[cstu]

which means that either blowing one's top at EACH incident is required

You can punish behavior without blowing your top.

 

[mr. furley]

No kids here yet so you can tell me to GFM but I can't imagine a "one size fits all" approach ever works. 

never. not ever.

 

[mr. furley]

You can punish behavior by not blowing your top.

can count on one finger the number of times i've ever lost my cool with my kids

even that might be one too many

eta:  my example in the OP is mrs. furley's reaction. realizing that YMMV.

 

[trogg78]

My 4 year old loves using the ipad.  It is a reward that she doesn't get when she doesn't follow the rules.  I'm not going to sit there and punish every single bad behavior because I know she's in a bad mood, but she will suffer the consequences for that bad behavior.  If she fixes the bad behavior she may get a reward, but it will certainly not involve a reward she had previously lost.  We focus on rewarding good behavior.  It's worked pretty darn good for us.

 

[mr. furley]

My 4 year old loves using the ipad.  It is a reward that she doesn't get when she doesn't follow the rules.  I'm not going to sit there and punish every single bad behavior because I know she's in a bad mood, but she will suffer the consequences for that bad behavior.  If she fixes the bad behavior she may get a reward, but it will certainly not involve a reward she had previously lost.  We focus on rewarding good behavior.  It's worked pretty darn good for us.

 

[MAC_32]

We believe in fairness, not equality.  We handle situations with our 6 year old completely differently than we do our 3 year old, and not just because of the age discrepancy.  Our 6 year old is sensitive (always has been), our 3 year old is a wildcard (also, always has been).  We let our 6 year old make mistakes, have the 'Full House' lesson talk, then we move on with our day.  If he does it again then we will raise our voice about it and consider punishing him, depending on what it is.  The 3 year old?  If we don't raise our voice and correct him the first time then he will do it again.  He probably will anyway, but he's less likely to do it if we get mad the first time.  Lesson talks don't work with him; he will always repeat it until he gets in trouble...he'll actually take it to the next level until he gets in trouble.  Hopefully it changes at some point, but we're taking the show me don't tell me route until he proves otherwise.

Generally speaking, we agree with your approach, but in all honesty - depends on the kid.

 

[saintfool]

I make my 6-yo run laps. 

 

[playin4beer]

I'm just trying to keep my four daughters from becoming strippers.  I figure if I do that, I've done my job according to Chris Rock.

 

[cstu]

if you never know what will get you punished since everything seemingly does without warning, why not just do what you want?

imo, kids understand boundary and expectations far more than they do getting "corrected" for everything they do

There needs to be clear expectations as well as consequences.  You need to follow through on those consequences every time.

I've found that positive reinforcement (rewarding good behavior) works much better for shaping behavior than punishment.  However, I also use negative punishment (taking away something preferred, like TV/computer) works well - usually the threat of it is enough to prevent a behavior.  The combination of positive reinforcement and negative punishment is powerful and if used consistently will achieve the behavior you want.

 

[cstu]

can count on one finger the number of times i've ever lost my cool with my kids

even that might be one too many

eta:  my example in the OP is mrs. furley's reaction. realizing that YMMV.

I'm no saint - it happens.

 

[Rick James]

it would help to have some examples

 

[Jayrod]

It depends on the behavior.

Anything that poses a serious threat to themselves or others is met with immediate punishment to stop the behavior immediately.  Activities that are simply annoying or a social faux pas will be met with conversations that slowly increase to punishment with repeated instances.

 

[Chadstroma]

What advice do you guys have on children that are super strong willed? I think in some ways that is a very good thing to have and I don't want to break their willpower but at times it is just freaking a lot to handle.

I read once back in the day that giving choices was a good way of handling a strong willed child. That worked with my daughter for the most part but my middle child son- he just shuts down. I give him choices and he just stares at me with this half pouty half you can't make me choose look and then I am back to square one again.

 

[mr. furley]

it would help to have some examples

well, it's not really relevant because anything can be explained away.. or rationalized.. depending on the individual respondent.

parenting is so individually specific that no one is going to agree on how to handle every situation.

this is more of a general guidelines type poll

 

[MAC_32]

What advice do you guys have on children that are super strong willed? I think in some ways that is a very good thing to have and I don't want to break their willpower but at times it is just freaking a lot to handle.

I read once back in the day that giving choices was a good way of handling a strong willed child. That worked with my daughter for the most part but my middle child son- he just shuts down. I give him choices and he just stares at me with this half pouty half you can't make me choose look and then I am back to square one again.

Set a good example.  All the time, or at least try to.  They're going to do what they want to do.  If they see mom, dad, and brother doing one thing they're more likely to do it too.  Not always, maybe not even frequently, but more often than they would otherwise.  I'll admit it's really...really tested my patience, of which there wasn't much in the first place.  Those times when I look up and see him bringing in his towel and trunks from swimming lessons once they're dried...or taking a break from playing in the yard and collecting sticks, putting them in the yard waste container...it's a good reminder that it's working.  Albeit, very slowly.

 

[cstu]

What advice do you guys have on children that are super strong willed? I think in some ways that is a very good thing to have and I don't want to break their willpower but at times it is just freaking a lot to handle.

I read once back in the day that giving choices was a good way of handling a strong willed child. That worked with my daughter for the most part but my middle child son- he just shuts down. I give him choices and he just stares at me with this half pouty half you can't make me choose look and then I am back to square one again.

Give me an example of the situation and the choices you are giving him.

 

[mr. furley]

Set a good example.  All the time, or at least try to.  They're going to do what they want to do.  If they see mom, dad, and brother doing one thing they're more likely to do it too.  Not always, maybe not even frequently, but more often than they would otherwise.  I'll admit it's really...really tested my patience, of which there wasn't much in the first place.  Those times when I look up and see him bringing in his towel and trunks from swimming lessons once they're dried...or taking a break from playing in the yard and collecting sticks, putting them in the yard waste container...it's a good reminder that it's working.  Albeit, very slowly.

this

and remember that they're young, still learning and testing boundaries

patience is key

 

[Chadstroma]

Give me an example of the situation and the choices you are giving him.

Here are a couple over the weekend....

Drive up: "Ok, daughter and son- what do you want?" daughter "corndog". "Ok, son, do you want a corndog?" "no." "Ok, son, you can get a corndog, chicken nuggets or grilled cheese. What do you want?"................... silence.............. I go over choices again and he says "no". So, I order nuggets (his normal favorite). Get home and he has a meltdown because he now wants a corndog.

Another, last night. He follows me into the room (which he was not suppose to be in because I had recently did a preventative spraying for lice on the bed after our daughter got some from school). I ask him to leave. He says no. I was wrapping up and heading out myself so I didn't push back, just finished what I was doing and headed to the door- with a ton of other stuff I have to do for making sure everything is washed or sprayed etc. I am going to leave and he is still standing there. "come on bud"... "no". "Ok, you have a choice. You can come with me or I am going to close the door because I am leaving." So.... I left and closed the door. He immediately cried and I open the door. He slowly goes out and immediately goes to my wife to report that Daddy closed the door on him.  

 

[General Malaise]

Spare the rod spoil the child...

I had a student who was so smart but got in lots of trouble and when I spoke to mom she says "What would you have me do, beat him?" I just simply responded he has no worry about getting in trouble with mom n dad, some type of correction needs to happen. 

Now I don't know what happened actually but he was the most well behaved student for me the rest of the way.  

Hey, get a hold of Annie Sullivan over here!

 

[mr. furley]

the tyranny of choice

we went through that with the youngest. learned that she doesn't deal well with choices. it overwhelms her. she needs direction. so if we give her a "choice" it's between two things and she now understands it's one, the other or nothing.  sometimes she chooses nothing but it's not because she's freaking out about choosing... it's because she doesn't want to eat.

i'll start the nitpicking on your "closed door" situation. your mistake was in going back and opening the door for him. he knows he can get you to do whatever he wants by crying. and then he ratted you out. 

your only choice there was to shiv him on the way to the yard when your wife had her back turned

 

[Funkley]

Accumulation....we have 11 and 16 year old boys and as much as they can (and do) piss me off over a given incident I get more bothered and less forgiving when they do something that they know damn well they shouldn't do and do it anyway. 

 

[Chadstroma]

the tyranny of choice

we went through that with the youngest. learned that she doesn't deal well with choices. it overwhelms her. she needs direction. so if we give her a "choice" it's between two things and she now understands it's one, the other or nothing.  sometimes she chooses nothing but it's not because she's freaking out about choosing... it's because she doesn't want to eat.

i'll start the nitpicking on your "closed door" situation. your mistake was in going back and opening the door for him. he knows he can get you to do whatever he wants by crying. and then he ratted you out. 

your only choice there was to shiv him on the way to the yard when your wife had her back turned

Yea.... I would have been inclined to just close the door and walked off in most times. But I did not want him in the room with the spray stuff still in the air and the chance he would go on the bed. Not sure if doing that would be the 'right choice' either. I just didn't have the time (and honestly) the patience to try to lure him out. If I had picked him up and moved him it would have been the same crying.

 

[mr. furley]

Yea.... I would have been inclined to just close the door and walked off in most times. But I did not want him in the room with the spray stuff still in the air and the chance he would go on the bed. Not sure if doing that would be the 'right choice' either. I just didn't have the time (and honestly) the patience to try to lure him out. If I had picked him up and moved him it would have been the same crying.

this is the thing about parenting. even when you're right, you're wrong.

 

[Rick James]

a smack on the behind wouldn't kill him....

 

[FUBAR]

this comes up from time to time at the furley house

i'm a firm believer in fairness and letting the kids learn from their mistakes without blowing my top every time something happens. there are warnings and explanations of consequence if said bad behavior continues and the kids understand. they listen and are just good kids. however, if the same behavior is repeated over and over again there comes a point where a line is drawn.

mrs. furley on the other hand believes that incidents are not connected no matter their similarity. which means that either blowing one's top at EACH incident is required or never saying anything even if the same behavior has happened exactly the same way 10 days in a row. 

she likes to say "you can't keep bringing up the past"

what say you?

do you treat each incident as an isolated event and not look at past behavior?  or do you pay attention to the storyline and react accordingly?

Both of these are fails IMO.  But I'm guessing she'd phrase things differently.

we reward and punish based in part on the kid's recent behavior.  And I treat each kid differently, but fairly.  My 13yo does something non-dangerous he shouldn't but isn't that big of a deal - we'll discuss the reason his behavior is a problem.  Usually that's enough with him.  my 11yo requires a little more of the rod (metaphorically) but generally he's a good kid so we're we don't go overboard.  My 8yo overreacts way too often and that needs to end, so we are quicker to discipline (quietly if we can, no getting into a shouting match with him).  My 5yo is usually good but way too quick to whine, cry and tattle on his brothers, so I usually just send him into timeout and ignore his pleas. 

IOW - assess your kid and find what works for the individual.  Past behavior is part of the assessment.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Hey, get a hold of Annie Sullivan over here!

G1 GM

 

[General Malaise]

G1 GM

Do me a solid, will you?  List all of your jobs you've held since 2000.  Even if for just a couple of weeks.  Got a wager on the side and want to see just how close I am.  Thx GB.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Do me a solid, will you?  List all of your jobs you've held since 2000.  Even if for just a couple of weeks.  Got a wager on the side and want to see just how close I am.  Thx GB.

I have had a lot, you're gonna win that bet in a landslide. There was Lehman Bros/BNC plus another broker shop that took up much of 2000-2007 about the time of the mortgage crunch. Florida has been a roller coaster but let's not forget I went back to school so if you want to hold managing a Whole Foods against me while finishing school then have at it. 

I had a moving company for 2-3 years before I started teaching, hard to get fired when you own the company but I did manage to get my partner to buy me out which is close to the same thing. 

Only reason I indulged any of this, likely not staying in teaching. Big surprise, right? 

 

[General Malaise]

I have had a lot, you're gonna win that bet in a landslide. There was Lehman Bros/BNC plus another broker shop that took up much of 2000-2007 about the time of the mortgage crunch. Florida has been a roller coaster but let's not forget I went back to school so if you want to hold managing a Whole Foods against me while finishing school then have at it. 

I had a moving company for 2-3 years before I started teaching, hard to get fired when you own the company but I did manage to get my partner to buy me out which is close to the same thing. 

Only reason I indulged any of this, likely not staying in teaching. Big surprise, right? 

Thought there were also some sales jobs in there too?  

You're really teaching?  Like, for real for real?  This isn't one of your made-up stories?  

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Thought there were also some sales jobs in there too?  

You're really teaching?  Like, for real for real?  This isn't one of your made-up stories?  

My 1st class was 48 kids because the school figured out a way to teach 24+24 in same class by having 2 teachers in 1 room, result was a nervous breakdown by 1 of them and another who was so flighty she gave tree hugging libs a bad name. I had just sold my moving company and a friend said we have an emergency situation and need you at the school...I said call 9-1-1.

You know some of my backstory, it was an opp for me to connect with someone I should have been connected with his entire life. I taught so I could understand better the relationships between youngsters and adults, it's been a real eye opener. Can we leave it at that GM?  

 

[General Malaise]

My 1st class was 48 kids because the school figured out a way to teach 24+24 in same class by having 2 teachers in 1 room, result was a nervous breakdown by 1 of them and another who was so flighty she gave tree hugging libs a bad name. I had just sold my moving company and a friend said we have an emergency situation and need you at the school...I said call 9-1-1.

You know some of my backstory, it was an opp for me to connect with someone I should have been connected with his entire life. I taught so I could understand better the relationships between youngsters and adults, it's been a real eye opener. Can we leave it at that GM?  

We can.  Good for you.  No offense, I'm still dubious about 90% of your claims, but if this is really real, good on you.

 

[bueno]

I am of the opinion that unpunished bad behavior gets repeated and rewarded bad behavior gets repeated more often.

 

[Chadstroma]

a smack on the behind wouldn't kill him....

He gets a smack on the behind at times but I try avoid that if it is just him being stubborn.

 

[mr. furley]

a smack on the behind wouldn't kill him....

upside here is you've left options on the table for later when you're really pissed

having a bad day and the little ******* doesn't want to listen?  you can just ####### punch him right in the face to establish your rightness

if that doesn't work, put a pistol in his mouth

escalate from there as needed

 

[Jayrod]

upside here is you've left options on the table for later when you're really pissed

having a bad day and the little ******* doesn't want to listen?  you can just ####### punch him right in the face to establish your rightness

if that doesn't work, put a pistol in his mouth

escalate from there as needed

He's Rick James, #####!!

 

[mr. furley]

He's Rick James, #####!!

assuming he has 5 fingers here, gb. otherwise how could they effectively communicate with the face?