A Question for the Tebow Haters (1 Viewer)

[moleculo]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

The Broncos are beating the bad teams, and this is good TV. They get Chicago at an opportune time... so lets measure him against NE in Denver next week. He will likely be put in a spot where he has to throw again here... has he learned from Detroit?

As it stands, there is no evidence to change my mind at this time. I'm sure I'll be lumped in with the haters, but it isn't the case - I've actually been routing for him, and have loved watching the games.

Tebow will never beat a good team. After all - if a team loses to Tebow, how could they possibly be any good?If mia, oak, kc, nyj, sd, and min had all beaten Den, their combined record would be 36-36.

If anyone is keeping score, the combined record of SF's opponents for games they won is 48-72. For NE, it's 46-62. For GB, it's 62-82.

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

This

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

The Broncos are beating the bad teams, and this is good TV. They get Chicago at an opportune time... so lets measure him against NE in Denver next week. He will likely be put in a spot where he has to throw again here... has he learned from Detroit?

As it stands, there is no evidence to change my mind at this time. I'm sure I'll be lumped in with the haters, but it isn't the case - I've actually been routing for him, and have loved watching the games.

Tebow will never beat a good team. After all - if a team loses to Tebow, how could they possibly be any good?If mia, oak, kc, nyj, sd, and min had all beaten Den, their combined record would be 36-36.

If anyone is keeping score, the combined record of SF's opponents for games they won is 48-72. For NE, it's 46-62. For GB, it's 62-82.

Matsuki just got Keep everything in perspective. Until Tebow took over they were considered one of the bottom 5 teams in the NFL. So after going on a good run and Tebow playing and learning on the job as a young QB think of what you are asking. The mentality has changed so much that you would say unless he beats the Patriots of the world then he has not progressed. You realize how silly that sounds right.

There is clearly some top tier teams in the NFL right now and Denver is not in that top tier (they could possibly upset the top teams) but that does not mean that Denver can't continue to grow and become a top tier team in the future with Tebow as their starter.

Even if Tebow goes 0 and 4 during the stretch run you can't overreact one way or the other. I personally think Tebow has an opportunity to be a very unique talent and very good starting QB in the NFL. He is just now getting his opportunity and has already made people believe enough that he should be beating the bottom teams of the NFL which is a long way from where Denver have come to start the year.

 

[Reepicheep]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

The Broncos are beating the bad teams, and this is good TV. They get Chicago at an opportune time... so lets measure him against NE in Denver next week. He will likely be put in a spot where he has to throw again here... has he learned from Detroit?

As it stands, there is no evidence to change my mind at this time. I'm sure I'll be lumped in with the haters, but it isn't the case - I've actually been routing for him, and have loved watching the games.

Tebow will never beat a good team. After all - if a team loses to Tebow, how could they possibly be any good?If mia, oak, kc, nyj, sd, and min had all beaten Den, their combined record would be 36-36.

If anyone is keeping score, the combined record of SF's opponents for games they won is 48-72. For NE, it's 46-62. For GB, it's 62-82.

If you want to compare winning records of various teams opponents the best thing to do is probably just not count the wins/losses that came against the team that is being measured. (i.e. Denver's opponents record against teams not named the Denver Broncos) Counting losses as wins doesn't make any sense, and is really silly when you compare the result to records that are not adjusted in such a fashion. But really the "opponents record" thing is not all that useful, by the end of the season the majority of teams have faced opponents whose combined record is within a few games of .500 anyways.

 

[killrobotkill]

Asking a Tebow hater at what point they would admit they were wrong is a bit like asking a Republican at what point would they admit they were wrong about Obama. They're too entrenched in their bias to accept and consider new evidence.

 

[Dizzy]

Asking a Tebow hater at what point they would admit they were wrong is a bit like asking a Republican at what point would they admit they were wrong about Obama. They're too entrenched in their bias to accept and consider new evidence.

LOT OF FOOTBALL to be played yet... hard to be wrong or right over what amounts to a "nice run" (at this point). The long line of cupcake match-ups goes away in January.If he just plays the position, and contributes to meaningful wins, all of this goes away.

If the Denver Broncos start out 2-4 in 2012 after "making" the play-offs the previous season (but facing a tougher schedule), this all comes roaring back.

 

[Chaka]

Past three games he has put up 150 yards passing/game, 1 passing TD/game, 49 yards rushing/game & .3 rush TDs. And a rushing two point conversion.

Good for 24th overall and 10th among QBs in ppg. Sure on any given week some WW player might outperform him but, unless you can accurately predict who those WW wonders are going to be, Tebow's consistency elevates him above those one hit wonders.

OK, so in my league... that stat line gets you 14 points - 1 pt 20yds passing - 3pt TD pass - 1pt 10yds rushing (we award 0 for rushing for a third of a TD).Unless it's a league where players are awarded a point for every time they answer a question with, "Well first off I'd like to thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ"... he's not exactly lighting it up.

No, he is exactly not lighting it up. Nobody said he has been. He's been consistently solid. Using standard scoring his finishes among QBs from week 7 to 13 are 7, 10, 3, 13, 18, 16, 13. He's a low-end #1 fantasy QB with a high floor and a high ceiling.

Agreed. The guy really hasn't had a bad game. His consistency has put him as the #4 QB in my league since he became the starter. I love the guaranteed points in the lineup.

 

[Chaka]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

 

[shnikies]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

Stewart and Williams are both much better than McGahee.

 

[Perfect Tommy]

Asking a Tebow hater at what point they would admit they were wrong is a bit like asking a Republican at what point would they admit they were wrong about Obama. They're too entrenched in their bias to accept and consider new evidence.

Notice that in your post you could replace the word "republican" with "democrat" and the word "Obama" with the word "Bush" and it would read exactly the same way just from the other side of the political aisle. This is exactly the kind of bigotry that I find so objectionable. Your hypocrisy is glaring.There are people who hate Tebow in the same way as you hate republicans and they can never change. But there are many people who are not impressed with him as an honest evaluation of his play. They are entitled to that opinion without being dismissed as haters. As Tebow continues to play they will continually reassess their opinion of Tebow and if Tebow is successful and builds his resume, some of them will evaluate him to be good. If he loses the rest of the games this year and can't make a roster next year reasonable Tebow fans will lower their evaluation of him as a QB. That is the way it should be.

 

[Dizzy]

Agreed. The guy really hasn't had a bad game. His consistency has put him as the #4 QB in my league since he became the starter. I love the guaranteed points in the lineup.

Care to share your scoring system? Just curious... I assume Cam, Rogers, Brees/Brady are 1,2,3 and Tebow bumps one of these guys?

 

[FavreCo]

Agreed. The guy really hasn't had a bad game. His consistency has put him as the #4 QB in my league since he became the starter. I love the guaranteed points in the lineup.

Care to share your scoring system? Just curious... I assume Cam, Rogers, Brees/Brady are 1,2,3 and Tebow bumps one of these guys?

That's quite the ####ed up scoring system. Gomer Manning is smoking Tebow in the leagues I'm in. In the 1 pt/20 passing, 6pts/TD league Gomer averages 5.2 points more that The Tebow over the last 6 weeks. Gomer's low is 19 and and has beat The Tebows average every other week.

 

[Chaka]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

Stewart and Williams are both much better than McGahee.

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

 

[shnikies]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

Stewart and Williams are both much better than McGahee.

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

It's a completely different situation. Speaking on talent alone, Stewart and Williams are much better. You put either of those guys in McGahee's situation and they would be over 5 a carry IMO.

 

[Warrior]

Agreed. The guy really hasn't had a bad game. His consistency has put him as the #4 QB in my league since he became the starter. I love the guaranteed points in the lineup.

Care to share your scoring system? Just curious... I assume Cam, Rogers, Brees/Brady are 1,2,3 and Tebow bumps one of these guys?

That's quite the ####ed up scoring system. Gomer Manning is smoking Tebow in the leagues I'm in. In the 1 pt/20 passing, 6pts/TD league Gomer averages 5.2 points more that The Tebow over the last 6 weeks. Gomer's low is 19 and and has beat The Tebows average every other week.

I'm sure it's 6pts/rushing TD, 4pts/passing TD. Is it that difficult for you to comprehend?

 

[PahtyTom]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

Stewart and Williams are both much better than McGahee.

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

for the sake of this argument, Stewart would be a much more dangerous weapon in the backfield with Tebow since he came out of the spread-option offense in Oregon

 

[Dizzy]

Agreed. The guy really hasn't had a bad game. His consistency has put him as the #4 QB in my league since he became the starter. I love the guaranteed points in the lineup.

Care to share your scoring system? Just curious... I assume Cam, Rogers, Brees/Brady are 1,2,3 and Tebow bumps one of these guys?

That's quite the ####ed up scoring system. Gomer Manning is smoking Tebow in the leagues I'm in. In the 1 pt/20 passing, 6pts/TD league Gomer averages 5.2 points more that The Tebow over the last 6 weeks. Gomer's low is 19 and and has beat The Tebows average every other week.

I'm sure it's 6pts/rushing TD, 4pts/passing TD. Is it that difficult for you to comprehend?

I don't think that gets it done... but as long as you're sure.Why don't we let the man answer the question.

 

[shnikies]

Agreed. The guy really hasn't had a bad game. His consistency has put him as the #4 QB in my league since he became the starter. I love the guaranteed points in the lineup.

Care to share your scoring system? Just curious... I assume Cam, Rogers, Brees/Brady are 1,2,3 and Tebow bumps one of these guys?

That's quite the ####ed up scoring system. Gomer Manning is smoking Tebow in the leagues I'm in. In the 1 pt/20 passing, 6pts/TD league Gomer averages 5.2 points more that The Tebow over the last 6 weeks. Gomer's low is 19 and and has beat The Tebows average every other week.

I'm sure it's 6pts/rushing TD, 4pts/passing TD and 2 points for Tebowing. Is it that difficult for you to comprehend?

Fixed.

 

[Dizzy]

I'm sure it's 6pts/rushing TD, 4pts/passing TD and 2 points for Tebowing. Is it that difficult for you to comprehend?

Fixed.

OK, now that makes sense.

I just rolled that scoring system into my league and now Tebow and Brian Dawkins are top-5 FF QB's

 

[moleculo]

Not that it matters, but Jim Trotter of CNNSI has Tebow @ QB5.

link

5. Tim Tebow, Broncos: He looked so completely lost as a passer after his first two starts this season, I put him 31st in my midseason rankings. But Tebow is a different QB today. He has flourished since the Broncos adjusted their offense to take advantage of his read-option skill set.

Overall, he is 6-1 as a starter, with 11 touchdowns (nine passing) and only two turnovers (one fumble, one INT). But his incredible rise up the rankings is due to him coming up biggest when games matter most: at the end. Review the Broncos' last six wins and you will see Tebow was an integral factor in the outcome, particularly down the stretch. Will it last? Who cares? The rankings are about today, not tomorrow.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/12/07/quarterback.ratings/index.html#ixzz1fzht6WWI

 

[shnikies]

Not that it matters, but Jim Trotter of CNNSI has Tebow @ QB5.

link

5. Tim Tebow, Broncos: He looked so completely lost as a passer after his first two starts this season, I put him 31st in my midseason rankings. But Tebow is a different QB today. He has flourished since the Broncos adjusted their offense to take advantage of his read-option skill set.

Overall, he is 6-1 as a starter, with 11 touchdowns (nine passing) and only two turnovers (one fumble, one INT). But his incredible rise up the rankings is due to him coming up biggest when games matter most: at the end. Review the Broncos' last six wins and you will see Tebow was an integral factor in the outcome, particularly down the stretch. Will it last? Who cares? The rankings are about today, not tomorrow.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/12/07/quarterback.ratings/index.html#ixzz1fzht6WWI

I like Tebow but that list is absurd from Tebow to bottom.

 

[cr8f]

are you willing to admit you were wrong? If he wins games? If he statistically out preforms what you had him at - pass percentage or other? If gets Denver to the playoffs starting this weekend? What do you need to see?

Has he won a superbowl? Has he even won a playoff game?I think he could very well set this team back years if this offense doesn't work long term. If they build the team around him and defenses find how to shut him down the team could suffer for along time.They seem to be putting all their eggs in the Tebow basket.My feeling about him is other players like him and he elevates their play, but will that succeed long term? He does look better as a pocket passer so maybe he will succeed there.t's too early to tell though.

 

[ZWK]

One simple way to evaluate a quarterback is to look at how good the team's offense is. That's a good approach to take with Tebow, since he plays such a large role in the offense even when he's handing off, which won't show up on his stat line.

So how good has Denver's offense been in Tebow's 7 starts? They've scored 21.6 points per game, versus a league average this season of 21.9 ppg, so they're about average there (they'd rank 20th). In yards per game they're at 323, versus a league average of 345, so they're a bit below average (also 20th). Points and yards aren't perfect stats, but they're pretty good measures of an offense, they're simple, and they tell a similar story here.

We can also look at the numbers from Advanced NFL Stats (move the slider to include only weeks 7-13), which do a better job of isolating the contribution of the offense (as explained here). The Broncos offense has -28.2 Expected Points Added over Tebow's 7 games (4 points per game below average), which is actually near the bottom of the league (it ranks 29th for that 7-game stretch). But in Win Probability Added, Denver's offense is at +0.37, which is slightly above average (ranking 16th).

There's some inconsistency between the different stats (since Win Probability Added gives them a ton of credit for game-winning touchdown drives, while Expected Points Added doesn't treat those drives as any different from any other touchdown drive), but on the whole the picture seems to be a slightly below average offense. Since the rest of their personnel isn't great, Tebow has probably been pretty close to average at QB over his 7 starts, although he's doing it in an unconventional way.

 

[Chaka]

Agreed. The guy really hasn't had a bad game. His consistency has put him as the #4 QB in my league since he became the starter. I love the guaranteed points in the lineup.

Care to share your scoring system? Just curious... I assume Cam, Rogers, Brees/Brady are 1,2,3 and Tebow bumps one of these guys?

That's quite the ####ed up scoring system. Gomer Manning is smoking Tebow in the leagues I'm in. In the 1 pt/20 passing, 6pts/TD league Gomer averages 5.2 points more that The Tebow over the last 6 weeks. Gomer's low is 19 and and has beat The Tebows average every other week.

I'm sure it's 6pts/rushing TD, 4pts/passing TD. Is it that difficult for you to comprehend?

I don't think that gets it done... but as long as you're sure.Why don't we let the man answer the question.

6pts/rushing TD, 4pts/passing TD

 

[Chaka]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

Stewart and Williams are both much better than McGahee.

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

It's a completely different situation. Speaking on talent alone, Stewart and Williams are much better. You put either of those guys in McGahee's situation and they would be over 5 a carry IMO.

That's nice but this year, on these teams, McGahee is performing as well, or better, than Stewart and Williams.

 

[Chaka]

are you willing to admit you were wrong? If he wins games? If he statistically out preforms what you had him at - pass percentage or other? If gets Denver to the playoffs starting this weekend? What do you need to see?

Has he won a superbowl? Has he even won a playoff game?I think he could very well set this team back years if this offense doesn't work long term. If they build the team around him and defenses find how to shut him down the team could suffer for along time.

They seem to be putting all their eggs in the Tebow basket.

My feeling about him is other players like him and he elevates their play, but will that succeed long term? He does look better as a pocket passer so maybe he will succeed there.

t's too early to tell though.

You can say that about every QB. Just like you could say that about a 3-4 defense that switches to a 4-3. Or an offensive line on a pass happy team that changes to a ground'n'pound philosophy And they do all those things pretty quickly and seamlessly in the NFL The Broncos switched gears on offense mid season to accommodate Tebow's skill set and it's working pretty well. I think they will be able to get back to a more traditional offense in a hurry if the need arises.

 

[Chaka]

I'll be honest, I really did not like Tebow in college. Jake Plummer's recent comments reflect my own feelings "Glad you're so holy and righteous Baby Jesus, but I really don't want to hear about it every single time someone sticks a microphone in your face. And I certainly don't want you pushing your agenda during Super Bowl commercials." But you know what? That commercial was quite respectful. In fact every time they stick a microphone in his mug he says things that are quite respectful.

He just seems like a very mature, good kid with his heart in the right place.

It really seems like people are just hoping he fails and looking for any little flaw to pounce upon. I don't think I have seen a more scrutinized player since Favre's second or third retirement tour and IMO Tebow is handling as well, or better, than Favre ever did.

 

[moleculo]

are you willing to admit you were wrong? If he wins games? If he statistically out preforms what you had him at - pass percentage or other? If gets Denver to the playoffs starting this weekend? What do you need to see?

Has he won a superbowl? Has he even won a playoff game?I think he could very well set this team back years if this offense doesn't work long term. If they build the team around him and defenses find how to shut him down the team could suffer for along time.

They seem to be putting all their eggs in the Tebow basket.

My feeling about him is other players like him and he elevates their play, but will that succeed long term? He does look better as a pocket passer so maybe he will succeed there.

t's too early to tell though.

You can say that about every QB. Just like you could say that about a 3-4 defense that switches to a 4-3. Or an offensive line on a pass happy team that changes to a ground'n'pound philosophy And they do all those things pretty quickly and seamlessly in the NFL The Broncos switched gears on offense mid season to accommodate Tebow's skill set and it's working pretty well. I think they will be able to get back to a more traditional offense in a hurry if the need arises.

Did you watch the Min game? There was not a single pitch option, very few read option playsand only one called QB keeper on the 2 point conversion. They aren't as exotic as some like to paint them... think of a standard offense playbook that has a few option plays added, and a HC that loves running the ball.

 

[shnikies]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

Stewart and Williams are both much better than McGahee.

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

It's a completely different situation. Speaking on talent alone, Stewart and Williams are much better. You put either of those guys in McGahee's situation and they would be over 5 a carry IMO.

That's nice but this year, on these teams, McGahee is performing as well, or better, than Stewart and Williams.

That's not really the point of the discussion. We're talking about talent, not stats.

 

[TimTebow]

I am worried, as much as I run the ball, savior jesus christ willing, that I don't get hurt.

Thank you lord christ above.

 

[DoubleG]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

I thought this issue was settled when the Broncos put up 38 against Oakland in Oakland and put to rest when he Minnesota posted 32 in Minny last week - and the Broncos played from behind the entire game - and won by posting 35. So he will be a "viable" starting QB when he can score 50+? I take it only Brees, Rodgers and Brady are viable then - because there aren't many teams who ask their QBs to score 45-50 points/game. Most of them just ask their QBs to help them win games.

 

[killrobotkill]

Asking a Tebow hater at what point they would admit they were wrong is a bit like asking a Republican at what point would they admit they were wrong about Obama. They're too entrenched in their bias to accept and consider new evidence.

Notice that in your post you could replace the word "republican" with "democrat" and the word "Obama" with the word "Bush" and it would read exactly the same way just from the other side of the political aisle. This is exactly the kind of bigotry that I find so objectionable. Your hypocrisy is glaring.There are people who hate Tebow in the same way as you hate republicans and they can never change. But there are many people who are not impressed with him as an honest evaluation of his play. They are entitled to that opinion without being dismissed as haters. As Tebow continues to play they will continually reassess their opinion of Tebow and if Tebow is successful and builds his resume, some of them will evaluate him to be good. If he loses the rest of the games this year and can't make a roster next year reasonable Tebow fans will lower their evaluation of him as a QB. That is the way it should be.

Of course you could make the analogy against the other party too - that's not the point. I'm not trying to make a political statement one way or another, but simply a point about confirmation bias.

 

[moleculo]

Asking a Tebow hater at what point they would admit they were wrong is a bit like asking a Republican at what point would they admit they were wrong about Obama. They're too entrenched in their bias to accept and consider new evidence.

Notice that in your post you could replace the word "republican" with "democrat" and the word "Obama" with the word "Bush" and it would read exactly the same way just from the other side of the political aisle. This is exactly the kind of bigotry that I find so objectionable. Your hypocrisy is glaring.There are people who hate Tebow in the same way as you hate republicans and they can never change. But there are many people who are not impressed with him as an honest evaluation of his play. They are entitled to that opinion without being dismissed as haters. As Tebow continues to play they will continually reassess their opinion of Tebow and if Tebow is successful and builds his resume, some of them will evaluate him to be good. If he loses the rest of the games this year and can't make a roster next year reasonable Tebow fans will lower their evaluation of him as a QB. That is the way it should be.

Of course you could make the analogy against the other party too - that's not the point. I'm not trying to make a political statement one way or another, but simply a point about confirmation bias.

Tebow is nothing than a giant pile of confirmation bias. If you are a fanboy, you point to the rushing stats and wins. If you are a hater, you cling to the throwing motion and the lack of attempts. What ever your pre-conceived notion was, chances are that notions has been reinforced.

 

[GeauxTigers]

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

And Willis didn't start putting up those numbers until Tebow became QB. Tebow being QB has had a direct effect on Willis numbers.

 

[matuski]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

The Broncos are beating the bad teams, and this is good TV. They get Chicago at an opportune time... so lets measure him against NE in Denver next week. He will likely be put in a spot where he has to throw again here... has he learned from Detroit?

As it stands, there is no evidence to change my mind at this time. I'm sure I'll be lumped in with the haters, but it isn't the case - I've actually been routing for him, and have loved watching the games.

Tebow will never beat a good team. After all - if a team loses to Tebow, how could they possibly be any good?If mia, oak, kc, nyj, sd, and min had all beaten Den, their combined record would be 36-36.

If anyone is keeping score, the combined record of SF's opponents for games they won is 48-72. For NE, it's 46-62. For GB, it's 62-82.

Matsuki just got Keep everything in perspective. Until Tebow took over they were considered one of the bottom 5 teams in the NFL. So after going on a good run and Tebow playing and learning on the job as a young QB think of what you are asking. The mentality has changed so much that you would say unless he beats the Patriots of the world then he has not progressed. You realize how silly that sounds right.

There is clearly some top tier teams in the NFL right now and Denver is not in that top tier (they could possibly upset the top teams) but that does not mean that Denver can't continue to grow and become a top tier team in the future with Tebow as their starter.

Even if Tebow goes 0 and 4 during the stretch run you can't overreact one way or the other. I personally think Tebow has an opportunity to be a very unique talent and very good starting QB in the NFL. He is just now getting his opportunity and has already made people believe enough that he should be beating the bottom teams of the NFL which is a long way from where Denver have come to start the year.

This is where you guys miss.

Somehow Tebow becomes a topic about owning someone versus discussion on his performance as a quarterback. You take my post as "hating". It wasn't. Sure he could grow and get better, but as I said - we have zero evidence that he is able to play the position as required when it must be with his arm. I repeat - I'm rooting for him.

Please don't bring two of the best QB's ever into a conversation about Tebow. Yikes.

Bringing in a what if scenario to make his opponents have a .500 record? I'm not sure what that adds to this conversation.

 

[cheese]

One simple way to evaluate a quarterback is to look at how good the team's offense is. That's a good approach to take with Tebow, since he plays such a large role in the offense even when he's handing off, which won't show up on his stat line.

So how good has Denver's offense been in Tebow's 7 starts? They've scored 21.6 points per game, versus a league average this season of 21.9 ppg, so they're about average there (they'd rank 20th). In yards per game they're at 323, versus a league average of 345, so they're a bit below average (also 20th). Points and yards aren't perfect stats, but they're pretty good measures of an offense, they're simple, and they tell a similar story here.

We can also look at the numbers from Advanced NFL Stats (move the slider to include only weeks 7-13), which do a better job of isolating the contribution of the offense (as explained here). The Broncos offense has -28.2 Expected Points Added over Tebow's 7 games (4 points per game below average), which is actually near the bottom of the league (it ranks 29th for that 7-game stretch). But in Win Probability Added, Denver's offense is at +0.37, which is slightly above average (ranking 16th).

There's some inconsistency between the different stats (since Win Probability Added gives them a ton of credit for game-winning touchdown drives, while Expected Points Added doesn't treat those drives as any different from any other touchdown drive), but on the whole the picture seems to be a slightly below average offense. Since the rest of their personnel isn't great, Tebow has probably been pretty close to average at QB over his 7 starts, although he's doing it in an unconventional way.

Do the advanced stats factor in that they are almost never turning the ball over? If my offense could promise me average results in Pts and yards without and TO's, I would take that in a heartbeat. If offered that as the coach of a terrible team with horrific offensive "weapons", I would be jumping for joy.

 

[matuski]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

I thought this issue was settled when the Broncos put up 38 against Oakland in Oakland and put to rest when he Minnesota posted 32 in Minny last week - and the Broncos played from behind the entire game - and won by posting 35. So he will be a "viable" starting QB when he can score 50+? I take it only Brees, Rodgers and Brady are viable then - because there aren't many teams who ask their QBs to score 45-50 points/game. Most of them just ask their QBs to help them win games.

Lots of posts bringing Brees Brady and Rodgers into an argument to support Tebow. I admit, I'm lost.

 

[matuski]

If mia, oak, kc, nyj, sd, and min had all beaten Den, their combined record would be 36-36.

Does Tebow being 0-7 versus hypothetical .500 combined record teams bolster your argument in a way I'm missing? I'd stick with the 6-1 versus bad teams here personally. But again this seems personal with many here... I'm a guy watchhing football.

 

[The_Man]

Not that it matters, but Jim Trotter of CNNSI has Tebow @ QB5.

link

5. Tim Tebow, Broncos: He looked so completely lost as a passer after his first two starts this season, I put him 31st in my midseason rankings. But Tebow is a different QB today. He has flourished since the Broncos adjusted their offense to take advantage of his read-option skill set.

Overall, he is 6-1 as a starter, with 11 touchdowns (nine passing) and only two turnovers (one fumble, one INT). But his incredible rise up the rankings is due to him coming up biggest when games matter most: at the end. Review the Broncos' last six wins and you will see Tebow was an integral factor in the outcome, particularly down the stretch. Will it last? Who cares? The rankings are about today, not tomorrow.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/12/07/quarterback.ratings/index.html#ixzz1fzht6WWI

I want you to review another team's last 5 wins and think about what that team's QB has done.In one game, he overcame a 24-3 deficit to earn a comeback 30-27 win.

In one game, he drove his team 92 yards down the field at Pittsburgh to score a winning TD with 8 seconds left.

In one game, he put up a 105.5 QB ranking in a game with first place in the division on the line in a 31-24 win.

In one game, he led his team on a 4th quarter TD drive to clinch a 16-6 victory against a 9-1 team that had the NFL's top-ranked defense.

Who is the author of these incredible late-game heroics? The #22 QB on that list, Joe Flacco. Why is it when Tebow wins, it's all about Tebow, but when other teams win, it's about a great team effort?

 

[Max Power]

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

And Willis didn't start putting up those numbers until Tebow became QB. Tebow being QB has had a direct effect on Willis numbers.

This just isn't true

 

[DoubleG]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

I thought this issue was settled when the Broncos put up 38 against Oakland in Oakland and put to rest when he Minnesota posted 32 in Minny last week - and the Broncos played from behind the entire game - and won by posting 35. So he will be a "viable" starting QB when he can score 50+? I take it only Brees, Rodgers and Brady are viable then - because there aren't many teams who ask their QBs to score 45-50 points/game. Most of them just ask their QBs to help them win games.

Lots of posts bringing Brees Brady and Rodgers into an argument to support Tebow. I admit, I'm lost.

The reason you are lost is because you are arguing a point that has already been disproven...twice. The comment about Brady, Brees and Rodgers was not a comparison to Tebow - merely a point that by your apparent definition of high scoring game (since 35-32 and 38-24 are apparently not within said definition) - those are the only 3 QBs that qualify as "viable". Incidentally, I think you are fully aware of that, but since there really is no intelligent argument to the contrary, you simply attempt to ignore the validity of the point, choosing instead to pretend to misunderstand and flip the discussion to the riduculous premise on which it was never based.

Keep up the fine work of throwing out non-sensical statements, then attempting to twist the responses out of context when confronted with actual facts that disprove or contradict your "point".

 

[TimTebow]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

I thought this issue was settled when the Broncos put up 38 against Oakland in Oakland and put to rest when he Minnesota posted 32 in Minny last week - and the Broncos played from behind the entire game - and won by posting 35. So he will be a "viable" starting QB when he can score 50+? I take it only Brees, Rodgers and Brady are viable then - because there aren't many teams who ask their QBs to score 45-50 points/game. Most of them just ask their QBs to help them win games.

I do thank the Lord Jesus above that my defense put up a score for us that game.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Bottom line: if the Broncos build the team with Tebow as their QB and play to his strengths, they'll get to the Super Bowl eventually. And when he wins his first, the Merril Hoges of the world will still call him a "team manager" that was the beneficiary of a great defense and surrounding cast.

Yea, no.He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

The Broncos are beating the bad teams, and this is good TV. They get Chicago at an opportune time... so lets measure him against NE in Denver next week. He will likely be put in a spot where he has to throw again here... has he learned from Detroit?

As it stands, there is no evidence to change my mind at this time. I'm sure I'll be lumped in with the haters, but it isn't the case - I've actually been routing for him, and have loved watching the games.

Tebow will never beat a good team. After all - if a team loses to Tebow, how could they possibly be any good?If mia, oak, kc, nyj, sd, and min had all beaten Den, their combined record would be 36-36.

If anyone is keeping score, the combined record of SF's opponents for games they won is 48-72. For NE, it's 46-62. For GB, it's 62-82.

Matsuki just got Keep everything in perspective. Until Tebow took over they were considered one of the bottom 5 teams in the NFL. So after going on a good run and Tebow playing and learning on the job as a young QB think of what you are asking. The mentality has changed so much that you would say unless he beats the Patriots of the world then he has not progressed. You realize how silly that sounds right.

There is clearly some top tier teams in the NFL right now and Denver is not in that top tier (they could possibly upset the top teams) but that does not mean that Denver can't continue to grow and become a top tier team in the future with Tebow as their starter.

Even if Tebow goes 0 and 4 during the stretch run you can't overreact one way or the other. I personally think Tebow has an opportunity to be a very unique talent and very good starting QB in the NFL. He is just now getting his opportunity and has already made people believe enough that he should be beating the bottom teams of the NFL which is a long way from where Denver have come to start the year.

This is where you guys miss.

Somehow Tebow becomes a topic about owning someone versus discussion on his performance as a quarterback. You take my post as "hating". It wasn't. Sure he could grow and get better, but as I said - we have zero evidence that he is able to play the position as required when it must be with his arm. I repeat - I'm rooting for him.

Please don't bring two of the best QB's ever into a conversation about Tebow. Yikes.

Bringing in a what if scenario to make his opponents have a .500 record? I'm not sure what that adds to this conversation.

You are contradicting yourself........You say.....

He has beaten KC, Min, Mia, SD, NYJ, Oak (sans dmf, palmer second game). Combined record, 30-42. Got smoked when he played an offense that forced him to actually play quarterback.

When he starts beating the good teams and/or can keep his team in a high scoring game, I'll change my opinion on his viability.

I am saying keep things in perspective. How many second year QB's that have single digit starts to their name would have to beat "the good" teams as you say to be considere viable?

The offense has progressed over the last few games and Tebow is and has looked more comfortable. The process of Tebow becoming better in the pocket will be an on going struggle with him but he has the work rate and talent to make it work. Therefore baby steps are significant in my opinion as he continues to grow. If Tebow falters this week is he not viable or is he a young QB that is still learning the NFL game?

Tebow was considered a project as is and already a kid with such limited playing experience and people have casted their vote one way or the other on the kid. To say you yourself are rooting for him yet saying he needs to beat the good teams to be considered viable as a young QB seems silly.

 

[The_Man]

I am not a Tebow "hater" in the least. I loved watching him lead that game-winning drive vs. the Jets, and the Vikings game was one of the most enjoyable of the year. I'm having a great time watching him do what he's doing. But I firmly believe it's not going to last. To be honest, I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it has. It reminds me so much of when the Wildcat was unstoppable. Defenses will figure out how to defend him, and that will be that -- I thought the Jets had it done, but then they blew it.

I still believe if he faces the Steelers or Ravens, they will make mincemeat of Denver's offense. Play very disciplined coverage in the secondary with 3 or 4 guys, and then totally shut down the run - be it McGahee or Tebow - with their front 7 or 8. We'll see - but if Denver ends up hosting whichever AFC North team doesn't win the division for the Wild Card game, I will be betting big on the road team.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I am not a Tebow "hater" in the least. I loved watching him lead that game-winning drive vs. the Jets, and the Vikings game was one of the most enjoyable of the year. I'm having a great time watching him do what he's doing. But I firmly believe it's not going to last. To be honest, I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it has. It reminds me so much of when the Wildcat was unstoppable. Defenses will figure out how to defend him, and that will be that -- I thought the Jets had it done, but then they blew it.I still believe if he faces the Steelers or Ravens, they will make mincemeat of Denver's offense. Play very disciplined coverage in the secondary with 3 or 4 guys, and then totally shut down the run - be it McGahee or Tebow - with their front 7 or 8. We'll see - but if Denver ends up hosting whichever AFC North team doesn't win the division for the Wild Card game, I will be betting big on the road team.

Really? This is the formula for stopping Tebow? You realize that stopping the run, and remaining disciplined in the secondary applies to winning against anyone right.It is well documented by Tebow believers that he needs to improve on passing in the NFL. But to simply say this is just like the wild cat is wrong.

 

[moleculo]

I am not a Tebow "hater" in the least. I loved watching him lead that game-winning drive vs. the Jets, and the Vikings game was one of the most enjoyable of the year. I'm having a great time watching him do what he's doing. But I firmly believe it's not going to last. To be honest, I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it has. It reminds me so much of when the Wildcat was unstoppable. Defenses will figure out how to defend him, and that will be that -- I thought the Jets had it done, but then they blew it.I still believe if he faces the Steelers or Ravens, they will make mincemeat of Denver's offense. Play very disciplined coverage in the secondary with 3 or 4 guys, and then totally shut down the run - be it McGahee or Tebow - with their front 7 or 8. We'll see - but if Denver ends up hosting whichever AFC North team doesn't win the division for the Wild Card game, I will be betting big on the road team.

How can you say you watched the Min game and say the offense reminds you of the Wildcat?

 

[cheese]

Not that it matters, but Jim Trotter of CNNSI has Tebow @ QB5.

link

5. Tim Tebow, Broncos: He looked so completely lost as a passer after his first two starts this season, I put him 31st in my midseason rankings. But Tebow is a different QB today. He has flourished since the Broncos adjusted their offense to take advantage of his read-option skill set.

Overall, he is 6-1 as a starter, with 11 touchdowns (nine passing) and only two turnovers (one fumble, one INT). But his incredible rise up the rankings is due to him coming up biggest when games matter most: at the end. Review the Broncos' last six wins and you will see Tebow was an integral factor in the outcome, particularly down the stretch. Will it last? Who cares? The rankings are about today, not tomorrow.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/12/07/quarterback.ratings/index.html#ixzz1fzht6WWI

I want you to review another team's last 5 wins and think about what that team's QB has done.In one game, he overcame a 24-3 deficit to earn a comeback 30-27 win.

In one game, he drove his team 92 yards down the field at Pittsburgh to score a winning TD with 8 seconds left.

In one game, he put up a 105.5 QB ranking in a game with first place in the division on the line in a 31-24 win.

In one game, he led his team on a 4th quarter TD drive to clinch a 16-6 victory against a 9-1 team that had the NFL's top-ranked defense.

Who is the author of these incredible late-game heroics? The #22 QB on that list, Joe Flacco. Why is it when Tebow wins, it's all about Tebow, but when other teams win, it's about a great team effort?

Not that I would rank Tebow that far above Flacco, but don't you see a difference between doing it on the Broncos vs doing it on the Ravens?

 

[Chaka]

are you willing to admit you were wrong? If he wins games? If he statistically out preforms what you had him at - pass percentage or other? If gets Denver to the playoffs starting this weekend? What do you need to see?

Has he won a superbowl? Has he even won a playoff game?I think he could very well set this team back years if this offense doesn't work long term. If they build the team around him and defenses find how to shut him down the team could suffer for along time.

They seem to be putting all their eggs in the Tebow basket.

My feeling about him is other players like him and he elevates their play, but will that succeed long term? He does look better as a pocket passer so maybe he will succeed there.

t's too early to tell though.

You can say that about every QB. Just like you could say that about a 3-4 defense that switches to a 4-3. Or an offensive line on a pass happy team that changes to a ground'n'pound philosophy And they do all those things pretty quickly and seamlessly in the NFL The Broncos switched gears on offense mid season to accommodate Tebow's skill set and it's working pretty well. I think they will be able to get back to a more traditional offense in a hurry if the need arises.

Did you watch the Min game? There was not a single pitch option, very few read option playsand only one called QB keeper on the 2 point conversion. They aren't as exotic as some like to paint them... think of a standard offense playbook that has a few option plays added, and a HC that loves running the ball.

Watched about three quarters of that game. The offense was more traditional but they still used the read option plenty, Tebow just didn't run out of it that much (4 carries iirc).

 

[Chaka]

And Tebow is doing this without the benefit of taking #1 QB reps until week five of the season.

...and without JStew/Dwill at RB, and Steve Smiff at WR.

To be fair McGahee has been pretty solid, but he clearly has no target even approaching Smith's talent or probably even Greg Olsen for that matter.

Stewart and Williams are both much better than McGahee.

Perhaps, but this year it's a push at best. Willis is putting up just shy of 4.9 ypc this year.

It's a completely different situation. Speaking on talent alone, Stewart and Williams are much better. You put either of those guys in McGahee's situation and they would be over 5 a carry IMO.

That's nice but this year, on these teams, McGahee is performing as well, or better, than Stewart and Williams.

That's not really the point of the discussion. We're talking about talent, not stats.

Production is a measure of talent, no?

 

[davidwb]

Some real data to help determine how good a FANTASY QB Tebow has been. I looked at the QB points scored for games 7-13 (all of the games after Tebow's bye week) for the top 15 QBs and determined their averages and standard deviations (after all, scoring 40 points one week and 0 the next gives you a high average, but a sure loss in the second week). I only looked at QBs who were starters over this entire seven game period.

Scoring is fairly standard: 0.04 pts/passing yard, 0.10 pts/rushing yard, 4 pts/passing TD, 6 points/rushing TD, -2 points/Int

Here is what the data show, ranked by average points (average/SD):

1) Rodgers: 27.1/4.4

2) Newton: 24.3/8.6 (tie)

2) Brees: 24.3/9.8 (tie)

4) Brady: 20.6/5.6

5) Manning: 18.5/4.6

6) TEBOW: 18.3/3.9

7) Ryan: 18.0/4.3

8) Stafford: 17.9/8.0

9) Romo: 17.3/5.0

10) Roethlisberger: 16.8/5.9

11) Rivers: 15.6/6.7

12) Sanchez: 14.7/6.1

13) Moore: 14.5/5.7

14) Dalton: 14.0/4.3

15) Flacco: 10.9/4.3

So, Tebow is ranked #6, just behind Eli. But Tebow has the smallest standard deviation of any of the QBs -- he clearly is the most consistent. And at a high, but not highest, level. Interestingly, the two QBs with the greatest standard deviation were Brees (by far) and Stafford. Of course, Brees performs at such a high level that even his bad games are OK.