Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
After School Satan Club denied by school board (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Amused to Death
- Start date
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you are not serious - but I'll play
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us
The Satanic Temple has become the primary religious Satanic organization in the world with congregations internationally, and a number of high-profile public campaigns designed to preserve and advance secularism and individual liberties. The rise of The Satanic Temple has been met with an increase in commentary regarding what Satanism is as media outlets struggle to grasp how this upstart religion has begun to shift religious liberty debates with claims of equal access.
nothing about Satan there huh ? I mean LOL .... they ARE Satan / Devil, fighting hard against God/Christ/Christianity ........... fun game here, but please ..... nobody in their right mind believes a Satan club has nothing to do with Satan
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
The bolded is their purpose. They're atheists. God and Satan are meaningless to atheists. Their name is parody. I've followed them for years. I've never once sacrificed a goat.
They are social provocateurs and they are winning some battles. My local talk radio station is going to look into the York story tomorrow and already they are in a lather that Satanists are trying to groom(yes they used that term) our young people to believe in the devil.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
But please, tell me I'm a Satanist.
Anyway, as has already been said you have your opinion and no facts will change it. Have a great day.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Love this part:
But is the Satanic Temple actually made up of Satanists? The Church of Satan, who claim they are the true Satanists, say no, proving that there is some controversy between self-proclaimed Satanists over what exactly a Satanist is.
David Harris, Magister at the Church of Satan, which was founded in 1966, told Oxygen.com that the Satanic Temple members are not true Satanists.
“They are a political organization that has appropriated the trappings of Satanism to advance their political agenda,” he said.
Harris claimed there is no real Satanic political agenda.
“The reason there is no Satanic political agenda is there is no unified Satanic political position because you couldn’t get two Satanists to agree on a political issue ever," he explained. "Satanism is a religion of the radical individual. What may be politically motivating and/or Satanic to one Satanist may stand in complete opposition to another.”
However, Harris clarified the Church of Satan, like the Satanic Temple, doesn’t believe in a literal Satan either. He said they are a group of atheists who follow the teachings of Anton Szandor LaVey’s “The Satanic Bible” published in 1969.
According to Greaves, the LaVey book has a Darwinist, selfish approach. Greaves told Oxygen.com LaVey labeled his brand of satanism as “Ayn Rand with ceremonial trappings.”
He explained the LaVey “philosophy is very secure in the idea that things like sympathy and compassion were weaknesses and that selfish goals would always win out and that individualistic behavior was kind of divorced, that others falling behind was the natural order of things.”
The Satanic Temple isn't really down with that. In fact, Greaves insisted science proves altruism is an important part of the well-developed mind.
“The Satanic temple is a lot different than that,” Greaves said. “We feel that science has disproved the social Darwinist assumptions and we embrace altruism and pro-social activities."
“It’s not a defect at all,” he said.
Another conflict between the Church of Satan, which claims they are the real Satanists, and the Satanic Temple is the Satanic Temple’s tax exempt status from the Internal Revenue Service. Greaves provided a copy of that status, which was approved in February. It means that the temple is exempt from federal income tax just like most churches.
Harris, however, said Satanists do not believe in tax exemption because they, the Church of Satan, firmly believe in the separation between church and state.
“We’ve been eligible for it since 1971 and we have turned it down,” he said. ‘Because we believe that churches should be taxed and taxed to the fullest. We have literally put our money where our mouth is, our entire existence, and paid our taxes.”
An article written earlier this year by Greaves states, "The Satanic Temple dismisses the Church of Satan as irrelevant and inactive."
"The Church of Satan dedicates a good deal of time offering disparaging commentary against The Satanic Temple’s activities on the assertion that 'true Satanism' is apolitical, and whether or not they agree with any of our positions, they object nonetheless to what they see as a misappropriation of Satanism," he wrote. "In doing so, they fail to delineate the clear philosophical differences between the two organizations, and many people are unaware that the beliefs of the two aren’t merely interchangeable."
Regardless of whether or not the Satanic Temple are considered “real Satanists,” this group of self-proclaimed Satanists, which currently has over 100,000 members, said they have more antics in store for America.
Greaves wouldn’t be specific, but he told Oxygen.com, “People can expect more of the same from us and a lot more of the same for some time.”
But is the Satanic Temple actually made up of Satanists? The Church of Satan, who claim they are the true Satanists, say no, proving that there is some controversy between self-proclaimed Satanists over what exactly a Satanist is.
David Harris, Magister at the Church of Satan, which was founded in 1966, told Oxygen.com that the Satanic Temple members are not true Satanists.
“They are a political organization that has appropriated the trappings of Satanism to advance their political agenda,” he said.
Harris claimed there is no real Satanic political agenda.
“The reason there is no Satanic political agenda is there is no unified Satanic political position because you couldn’t get two Satanists to agree on a political issue ever," he explained. "Satanism is a religion of the radical individual. What may be politically motivating and/or Satanic to one Satanist may stand in complete opposition to another.”
However, Harris clarified the Church of Satan, like the Satanic Temple, doesn’t believe in a literal Satan either. He said they are a group of atheists who follow the teachings of Anton Szandor LaVey’s “The Satanic Bible” published in 1969.
According to Greaves, the LaVey book has a Darwinist, selfish approach. Greaves told Oxygen.com LaVey labeled his brand of satanism as “Ayn Rand with ceremonial trappings.”
He explained the LaVey “philosophy is very secure in the idea that things like sympathy and compassion were weaknesses and that selfish goals would always win out and that individualistic behavior was kind of divorced, that others falling behind was the natural order of things.”
The Satanic Temple isn't really down with that. In fact, Greaves insisted science proves altruism is an important part of the well-developed mind.
“The Satanic temple is a lot different than that,” Greaves said. “We feel that science has disproved the social Darwinist assumptions and we embrace altruism and pro-social activities."
“It’s not a defect at all,” he said.
Another conflict between the Church of Satan, which claims they are the real Satanists, and the Satanic Temple is the Satanic Temple’s tax exempt status from the Internal Revenue Service. Greaves provided a copy of that status, which was approved in February. It means that the temple is exempt from federal income tax just like most churches.
Harris, however, said Satanists do not believe in tax exemption because they, the Church of Satan, firmly believe in the separation between church and state.
“We’ve been eligible for it since 1971 and we have turned it down,” he said. ‘Because we believe that churches should be taxed and taxed to the fullest. We have literally put our money where our mouth is, our entire existence, and paid our taxes.”
An article written earlier this year by Greaves states, "The Satanic Temple dismisses the Church of Satan as irrelevant and inactive."
"The Church of Satan dedicates a good deal of time offering disparaging commentary against The Satanic Temple’s activities on the assertion that 'true Satanism' is apolitical, and whether or not they agree with any of our positions, they object nonetheless to what they see as a misappropriation of Satanism," he wrote. "In doing so, they fail to delineate the clear philosophical differences between the two organizations, and many people are unaware that the beliefs of the two aren’t merely interchangeable."
Regardless of whether or not the Satanic Temple are considered “real Satanists,” this group of self-proclaimed Satanists, which currently has over 100,000 members, said they have more antics in store for America.
Greaves wouldn’t be specific, but he told Oxygen.com, “People can expect more of the same from us and a lot more of the same for some time.”
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Which is the whole point. Atheists view gods and satan as one in the same - imaginary, man-made constructs. If you don't fear the devil, you're free to mock the idea of a "devil".
The whole purpose of TST is to say, "oh, you want to promote Christianity on our public land? Great, now promote Satan too because we're a religion and you can't take sides".
Amused to Death
Footballguy
History of the groupoh sure, I believe them
The Satanic Temple was created in 2013 by two friends using the pseudonyms Malcolm Jarry and Lucien Greaves. Many members of The Satanic Temple use pseudonyms because of threats and hate mail that they receive.
How The Conversation is different: We explain without oversimplifying.
Learn more
Members of The Satanic Temple do not believe in God or the devil. Its beliefs are articulated in “the seven tenets.” These tenets emphasize reason and science as well as values such as compassion and justice.
The first tenet states, “One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.” Other tenets address bodily autonomy, the freedom to offend and taking responsibility for one’s mistakes.
It was a series of political actions invoking religious freedom that brought the group into the public eye. They demanded the same privileges for Satanists that many Christians take for granted, such as erecting religious monuments on government property and using government meetings to present sectarian prayers.
Today there are 24 official chapters of the group throughout North America and Europe, ranging in membership from a dozen to over 100 people. Chapters can be found in coastal cities but also in the South and the Midwest. Texas is home to four chapters, more than any other state.
There are also thousands of supporters with individual memberships or in unofficial chapters with names like “Friends of The Satanic Temple, Arkansas.”
Absolutely, and I wholeheartedly support the efforts to highlight hypocrisy via absurdity.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
OK, you want to open council meetings with a Christian prayer? SCOTUS says you can't discriminate so now you must open a meeting with one of our prayers.oh sure, I believe them
Prayer invocations
The trouble in Scottsdale, Arizona, began in 2014 when the Supreme Court ruled in Greece v. Galloway that city councils and other government bodies may begin meetings with “invocations” that involve sectarian prayers.
What this meant was that the government could invite a pastor to say, “We pray in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,” as long as they did not discriminate against religious groups who wanted to give the invocation.
The Satanic Temple took the Supreme Court at their word. In 2016 they asked Scottsdale to open a city council meeting with the following prayer:
“Let us stand now, unbowed and unfettered by arcane doctrines born of fearful minds in darkened times. Let us embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the Tree of Knowledge and dissipate our blissful and comforting delusions of old.
"Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations. Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true.
"Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of One or All. That which will not bend must break, and that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise. It is Done. Hail Satan.”
dgreen
Footballguy
But aren’t they admitting they aren’t actually a religion? And to be a school club you have to have students willing to be officers and members. Is that the case here? Or is this just an adult wanting to start a club at an elementary school despite no student interest?
I am honestly asking. I am confused by some of the details. If this is just a gotcha attempt at creating a club, then it makes sense to deny them.
Last edited by a moderator:
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I have not seen anything that addresses the student interest, but the school board shot it down on the basis of public outcry. TST does have several clubs in other states, so there is some interest.
I found this article from today:
After School Satan Club rejected by Northern York School Board vote
I found this quote interesting from a junior in the school.
“I am a religious person myself, however, I’ve often found myself at the teeth-end of Christian love,” the junior, who declined to give his full name, said. “I find they can be quite intolerant at times. They can push people away easily.”
The After School Satan Club could provide a place for kids who know they are different to go without being asked demeaning questions or having to explain themselves", the junior said.
I also found this interesting, which IMO speaks to selective Christian tolerance:
Weaver continued to read the seven tenets of The Satanic Temple:
1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one’s own.
5. Beliefs should conform to one’s best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one’s beliefs.
6. People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one’s best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
“What is objectionable about all that?” Weaver said.
“Everything!” the auditorium erupted in raucous comment. Weaver silently returned to her seat.
dozer
Footballguy
This topic was covered when I was in Grad School (Secondary School Administration), about 30 years ago…
I don’t remember the specific details, but the particular case we focused on in class was a KKK group that wanted to use a school district facility for a meeting place in the evenings.
The rationale was something along the lines of public facilities funded by taxpayers, and allowing other groups to also use the district facilities.
The bottom line legal solution was “allow one group then you must allow all.”
In my experience working in several different districts in two different states, districts typically ignored this legal reasoning and went ahead and allowed after school prayer groups and other Christian type groups to use the facilities, and just kind of hoped no one complained, which as far as I know, no one did.
One district even allowed a local church to use district facilities to hold regular Sunday service, for free, after a fire shut down the church for two years.
I don’t remember the specific details, but the particular case we focused on in class was a KKK group that wanted to use a school district facility for a meeting place in the evenings.
The rationale was something along the lines of public facilities funded by taxpayers, and allowing other groups to also use the district facilities.
The bottom line legal solution was “allow one group then you must allow all.”
In my experience working in several different districts in two different states, districts typically ignored this legal reasoning and went ahead and allowed after school prayer groups and other Christian type groups to use the facilities, and just kind of hoped no one complained, which as far as I know, no one did.
One district even allowed a local church to use district facilities to hold regular Sunday service, for free, after a fire shut down the church for two years.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
And to address this point (more in the link):
What is religion?
However, an important outcome of the case was that Campbell rejected Scottsdale’s claim that The Satanic Temple is not a “real religion” or seeks only to mock actual religions.
The debate over what constitutes religion is an old one. In 1961, the Supreme Court acknowledged in Torcaso v. Watkins that there are many religions like Buddhism, Confucianism and even expressions of Judaism that are just not interested in God. Torcaso v. Watkins did not define religion; it merely ruled that religion is not synonymous with theism.
Scholars of religion have suggested that religion is not reducible to theism or indeed any one element. They have noted that the word religion is used differently in different contexts.
For example, religion scholar Catherine Albanese, in her 1981 book “America: Religions and Religion,” presented religions as systems consisting of “four ‘c’s.” These include creed, or a set of beliefs; code, or rules; cultus, meaning rituals; and community. In other words, religion is much more than the sum of its parts.
Also, atheism has protected rights under the religious freedom clause.
Last edited by a moderator:
Amused to Death
Footballguy
More from today's article linked above:
“Look at the range of our students the children suffering from mental health issues, suicide, anxiety, depression all these things are off the chart and my heart goes out to these kids,” one resident at the meeting said. “More than ever we need a God in this world and this proposal in the opposite direction (of God).”
How arrogant of a statement is that? "MY god will save the children." Many people feel we NEED to move in the opposite direction from gods. "Gods" have caused a lot of suffering in this world and many of today's children would benefit from less "god". Maybe there are a number of children suffering from mental health issues, suicide, anxiety, depression BECAUSE of religion.
“Look at the range of our students the children suffering from mental health issues, suicide, anxiety, depression all these things are off the chart and my heart goes out to these kids,” one resident at the meeting said. “More than ever we need a God in this world and this proposal in the opposite direction (of God).”
How arrogant of a statement is that? "MY god will save the children." Many people feel we NEED to move in the opposite direction from gods. "Gods" have caused a lot of suffering in this world and many of today's children would benefit from less "god". Maybe there are a number of children suffering from mental health issues, suicide, anxiety, depression BECAUSE of religion.
dgreen
Footballguy
Thanks. I guess I'm still not convinced that TST considers themselves to be a religion other than to label themselves that way for the sole purpose of proving a point. I suppose this will continue to play out.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
If I understand it correctly, a religion can exist solely on the basis of an ideal. TST has an ideal that government funded institutions must adhere to the first amendment. Its not up to the courts (or school boards) to determine what religions they agree with, they just have to follow the law. And it has been determined that TST does qualify as a religion. Even if that religion exists solely to ensure equality for all.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
It becomes apparent the easiest solution is for all publicly funded institutions just stay out of religion, period. Which again, is what TST attempts to point out through their methods.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
nope, you'll not change my mind
Bassmasters believes in Bass
National Rifle Assoc believes in rifles
Assembly of God Church believes in God
Satanic Temple believe in ////////////// not Satan ?
yeah ... good luck with that ! Defend it hard I suppose but nobody, and I mean nobody , chooses specifically the name SATAN, uses the words Satan/Devil and has the statues etc ...... with no ties/affiliation with Satan/Devil
you'll never sell that man, ever
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I guess you need to lobby your organization for name change then.
If I told you I was a member of WSWP (white supremacy for white people) but we wasn't affiliated with white supremacy and didn't promote white anything that you'd say I was crazy and it didn't matter what I said or the web pages
You'd be right too
dgreen
Footballguy
I haven't done a good job of explaining my thought, so I'll try again.
I'm not arguing that religion has a narrow definition and has to be about theism. I'm not arguing that courts haven't ruled that TST qualifies as a religion. I'm saying that I'm not sure that TST even thinks they are a religion. Yes, I'm sure they claim religious status and have argued that in court. But maybe they do that, as you say, as a way to point out a Constitutional issue and not because they are actually arguing for their own religious freedom. Maybe calling themselves a religion is just a means to an end. That doesn't necessarily mean they actually think they are a religion.
The few minutes that I've been exposed to this issue, the religious self-labeling just feels disingenuous to me. I'm not saying their goal is disingenuous. I can buy that they are trying to accomplish what they say they are trying to accomplish. I'm just questioning whether they are, in essence, lying about being a religion in order to create change.
But maybe they do honestly see themselves as a religion. I can certainly be wrong about that. Or maybe it started off more like I'm envisioning but has changed into actually seeing themselves as a religion as they've grown.
I'm not arguing that religion has a narrow definition and has to be about theism. I'm not arguing that courts haven't ruled that TST qualifies as a religion. I'm saying that I'm not sure that TST even thinks they are a religion. Yes, I'm sure they claim religious status and have argued that in court. But maybe they do that, as you say, as a way to point out a Constitutional issue and not because they are actually arguing for their own religious freedom. Maybe calling themselves a religion is just a means to an end. That doesn't necessarily mean they actually think they are a religion.
The few minutes that I've been exposed to this issue, the religious self-labeling just feels disingenuous to me. I'm not saying their goal is disingenuous. I can buy that they are trying to accomplish what they say they are trying to accomplish. I'm just questioning whether they are, in essence, lying about being a religion in order to create change.
But maybe they do honestly see themselves as a religion. I can certainly be wrong about that. Or maybe it started off more like I'm envisioning but has changed into actually seeing themselves as a religion as they've grown.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Instead of thinking of them as a "religious" group in the traditional sense, think of them as an atheist group that enjoys the same protections as other religions. Atheists also receive protections under the Establishment Clause. So even if they were a group that openly worshiped Satan (they don't) they must be granted the same legal protections as a Christian group. Additionally as an atheist group, they also receive those same protections.
So their argument against the school board is they were discriminated against for not being Christian. Hopefully the school board will lose on appeal.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
If WSWP promoted white supremacy then I'd have an issue with them. Post any links to stories you find where TST promotes Satan worship. Look beyond the name. Or don't. I don't care what you think at this point.
dgreen
Footballguy
Either I'm still not being clear on my exact point or I'm just not understanding how your responses directly relate to what I'm saying. I can see the tangential relevance. Regardless, it's all good. I admit that I've formed an opinion without a ton of information and can easily be wrong. We'll see where this case goes. Thanks for posting this topic and discussing.
Boston
Footballguy
This reminds me of Native American names for sports teams...some people think it is a tribute and some think it is culturally wrong...if the Club would drop the word Satan from their name, I am sure many parents would not care about it after that...legal or illegal I do think it is pretty easy to see why parents are not comfortable with it.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Agreed, but abiding by the Constitution is not up to the parents. In fact, if you're truly a defender of free speech and religious freedom you HAVE to support TST's right to be included. Religious freedom doesn't mean freedom for the ones you agree with.
The better solution would be for public schools to not get involved with any religion.
Boston
Footballguy
It is real easy to talk about that from a big picture issue (especially if your kids don't go to that school)...I have zero issues with parents that are concerned that a Satan club is now happening in their school (I find it odd if you wouldn't be)...now whether it is legal or legal is another story and for the courts to decide but quite honestly it is creepy and at least the parents should be 100% informed of what exactly is going on.
Last edited by a moderator:
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Or, they could not promote any religious groups. Admit one, admit them all. Those parents and their kids don't have to be involved with a group they don't like. But if you advocate religious freedom, live it.
Boston
Footballguy
I agree with that...I want religion, political bias and sex talk that isn't basic sex ed stuff out of the public schools...keep it to reading, writing and arithmetic and no agendas.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
And to address the bolded, I certainly wouldn't be offended. Because to be offended you need to believe in Satan. As I've mentioned previously, I view Satan and God equally - man made and imaginary. I don't fear Satan, so I don't care.
dgreen
Footballguy
You don't have to believe in the existence of an object of worship to be concerned about what the worshipers of that object may or may not do. As you said, you don't believe God exists, yet you do seem concerned about what worshippers of God are doing (and for good reason in many instances).
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I only care to the extent that they're doing harm to others. They're the ones discriminating. If a Christian parent is concerned about a group, don't participate. Protest all they want and let their voices be heard. But the school board has to rule in favor of TST or they're infringing on their rights. No one's infringing on Christians' rights. They're the favored religion here. Public schools can't favor one religion over another. Even Satanists.
Otherwise we have no religious freedom or speech.
Last edited by a moderator:
Amused to Death
Footballguy
If I called for the exclusion of Christian groups from school programs, it would only be to uphold the Constitution. In this case, Christians are calling for the exclusion of TST so they can continue their favored status.
dgreen
Footballguy
I was addressing your comment: "...to be offended you need to believe in Satan." I don't agree with that.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I can accept that. What I should have said was "to be concerned". I was addressing the comment that it was unbelievable that I wouldn't be concerned over such a group. So to that I say no, I'm not concerned because Satan isn't a threat to me.
Boston
Footballguy
I guess I have watched too many movies but when I think of the words Satan Club I think of either a badass bike gang or a group of people doing creepy things...due to that I would be very concerned if my kids were potentially near that...on the surface I don't think of a peaceful religious group and I think that is pretty much the point of calling it that.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Then you need to become more familiar with TST and what they promote. Their Seven Fundamental Tenets are posted in this thread.
Personally, I find them much more relevant to today's society than the Ten Commandments. I would have no problem if my kids lived their life according to them.
Boston
Footballguy
Looks like we will agree on keeping religion out but not about why calling it a Satan Club is concerning so we can move on.
Herb
Footballguy
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley
Seems like the bolded above and the quote I added aren't far off base from the implied current GOP/Trumpian philosophy of "I want what I want; your safety, beliefs, and institutions mean nothing to me."
Quite the pickle an Evangelical Christian would find themselves in these days if they were prone to introspection or self awareness. I find the whole thing ironically humorous in a dark, twisted way. La Vey and Crowley would also, I suspect.
Van Dyman
Footballguy
Sure, the TST could be named something else but then it might be less effective. If you look at their tenets, they're probably required to pick whatever name they feel would be most effective.
Last edited by a moderator:
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
If they want an A. S. S. Club at school let'em have one.
Last edited by a moderator:
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Not today, Satan.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Why did Satan build a gym in Hell?
To exercise the demons
To exercise the demons
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Not until the lawsuit, which will probably end up costing taxpayers millions in legal fees.
Similar threads
