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After today's performance I'm convinced: (1 Viewer)

lastresort66

Crude Noisemaker
After watching him throw two incompletions with 2nd and 2, approx 40 secs remaining, and TWO timeouts, I'm convinced that Peyton Manning is the second coming of Dan Marino:He'll pile up Hall of Fame stats, but he'll never win the big one. Never.Other comparisons: Elway, John and White, Danny (aka Danny Choke)

 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
Give Marino this D and running game, and he gets the job done. The result may be the same, but Peyton Manning wishes he could be Dan Marino.

 

Warsteinner

Footballguy
Other comparisons: Elway, John
If elway couldn't win the big game, how did he lead Denver to back-to-back Super Bowl victories?
Elway needed a few upgrades in talent. Where is there room for Manning to have more upgrades, taking the cap into consideration?
 

railman305

Footballguy
i think this game sheds alot of light on the situation and how manning SHOULD NOT be grouped light years ahead of the likes of mcnabb, hasselbeck, palmer, brees. THe only thing that counts is the playoffs, at least mcnabb, and delhomme got there teams to the big deal, and didnt crack under the pressure.That first half after he took a few hits, you could see him rush the ball so he wouldnt get killed by the uncoming rush, then after the game he says they have proctection problems (disgrace) If he was on any other teams with an average OLine he would be exposed a bit more I think, whenever there is pressure he just crumble, I never see so many balls throw not within 5 yards of a WR,enough of this manning praising, I'd take at least 5 guys over him in the playoffs the only thing that countsmannings and choking under pressure, it seems like it runs in the familyI dont mean to be so brutal, but I hate it when people say manning is so great when he does zero in the only part of the season that means something

 

sts911911

Footballguy
i think this game sheds alot of light on the situation and how manning SHOULD NOT be grouped light years ahead of the likes of mcnabb, hasselbeck, palmer, brees.

THe only thing that counts is the playoffs, at least mcnabb, and delhomme got there teams to the big deal, and didnt crack under the pressure.

That first half after he took a few hits, you could see him rush the ball so he wouldnt get killed by the uncoming rush, then after the game he says they have proctection problems (disgrace) If he was on any other teams with an average OLine he would be exposed a bit more I think, whenever there is pressure he just crumble, I never see so many balls throw not within 5 yards of a WR,

enough of this manning praising, I'd take at least 5 guys over him in the playoffs the only thing that counts

mannings and choking under pressure, it seems like it runs in the family

I dont mean to be so brutal, but I hate it when people say manning is so great when he does zero in the only part of the season that means something
If playoffs are the only thing that matters in evaluating a QB where do you rank someone like Terry Bradshaw? 4 Super Bowl rings, he got the job done, must be the number one QB of all time...right??
 

tdoss

Footballguy
Give Marino this D and running game, and he gets the job done. The result may be the same, but Peyton Manning wishes he could be Dan Marino.
I'd be willing to bet that if you just gave him Edge alone...he'd have won at least two...
 

David Yudkin

Footballguy
Other comparisons: Elway, John
If elway couldn't win the big game, how did he lead Denver to back-to-back Super Bowl victories?
By lead, I assume you mean hand off to TD?
In the second win, he went 18 for 29 for 336 yards with a passing touchdown and added a rushing touchdown as well. That's two more touchdowns than Davis had in that game.
 

Jimmy James

Footballguy
Give Marino this D and running game, and he gets the job done. The result may be the same, but Peyton Manning wishes he could be Dan Marino.
I'd be willing to bet that if you just gave him Edge alone...he'd have won at least two...
I agree. To be clear, when I wrote "the result may be the same", I mean that Manning may never win one like Marino did, not that Marino would have trouble winning if he had the type of team around him that Manning does.
 

boubucarow

Footballguy
Peyton is a tremendous quarterback. However, starting at Tennessee vs Florida, he has never proven capable of winning the big game. He had equal teams vs Florida and couldn't win. His matchups vs the Pats may not have been equal but he never had a Manning-like performance with plenty of offensive weapons against them in the playoffs. Against Pit, He was on fire in the 4th quarter and led his team to a game tieing situation. However, he was suffering for three quarters, threw a bad interception to Polumalu that would have ended the rally if not wrongly overturned, and he only got the last chance because of the Bettis fumble.I have said since he was drafted that he would never win the Super Bowl. He didn't have the team to do it until this year and with the best team, he laid an egg for 45 minutes. Until Brady proved he couldn't always come threw when it really mattered, I assumed he would. Until Mannings proves he can come threw when it really matters, I assume he won't.

 

TME

Footballguy
It's a little ironic (or something) how close we would be to talking about how great Manning is, to instead talking about how terrible he is in the clutch game. Give some credit to Pitt's D, they gave the OL and protection schemes fits today. But, Manning almost lead an incredible comeback against a team that you simply cannot come back on...ever. If Vandy makes the kick, Indy has all the momentum.

To be fair, how many clutch Vineteri kicks have helped solidify Brady's greatness? Manning only needed the same kind of kicking help today that has so often been provided to Brady.

 

iSnitch

Footballguy
Tom Moore and Dungy give Manning just enough rope to hang himself.It's great he's talented enough to call his own plays but perhaps if he had less to worry about he could simply do what he's supposed to?

 

obxlegends

Footballguy
I agree. To be clear, when I wrote "the result may be the same", I mean that Manning may never win one like Marino did, not that Marino would have trouble winning if he had the type of team around him that Manning does.
Marino won one what? Obviously not a Super Bowl. :P I believe the Manning comparison may lead more towards Dan Fouts than anything else. Just my .02.

 
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BeTheMatch

Let it burn!
It's a little ironic (or something) how close we would be to talking about how great Manning is, to instead talking about how terrible he is in the clutch game. Give some credit to Pitt's D, they gave the OL and protection schemes fits today. But, Manning almost lead an incredible comeback against a team that you simply cannot come back on...ever. If Vandy makes the kick, Indy has all the momentum.

To be fair, how many clutch Vineteri kicks have helped solidify Brady's greatness? Manning only needed the same kind of kicking help today that has so often been provided to Brady.
:goodposting:
 

Victualler

Footballguy
One does have to wonder.... if Manning can'g even get to the AFC Championship game with the team they had this year, then what does it take? Maybe it takes the same thing it took for Bledsoe to get his SB ring.

 

Bob Henry

Footballguy
As a long-time (suffering) Oilers fan, I think a more appropriate comparison is Warren Moon.Look, Moon, Marino and Manning will all rub elbows in Canton some day, but Manning and the Colts collectively came up short, again.At least they didn't flame out after leading 38-3 in the 3rd quarter.

 

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
I agree, Manning just can`t get his team over the hump. I think I like Marino better if I had to pick the better loser.

 

Airbus79

Footballguy
I think everyone is missing the fact that Marino did take Miami to the Super Bowl once. Peyton haven't won enough to take Indy to the Super Bowl.

This playoff loss has to be the biggest choke job by Peyton. :yucky: He gobbled up a significant chunk of Indy's salary cap and here is the outcome of paying 25% plus of salary cap to one player.

I agree, Manning just can`t get his team over the hump. I think I like Marino better if I had to pick the better loser.
 

harrycarey

Footballguy
It's a little ironic (or something) how close we would be to talking about how great Manning is, to instead talking about how terrible he is in the clutch game. Give some credit to Pitt's D, they gave the OL and protection schemes fits today. But, Manning almost lead an incredible comeback against a team that you simply cannot come back on...ever. If Vandy makes the kick, Indy has all the momentum.

To be fair, how many clutch Vineteri kicks have helped solidify Brady's greatness? Manning only needed the same kind of kicking help today that has so often been provided to Brady.
:goodposting:
Yep.. Vandy also missed a woulda-been game winner against Miami when Peyton made his first or second trip to the playoffs. The Colts ended up losing in OT in a game where Lamar Smith put up 200 rushing yards for the phins
 

Airbus79

Footballguy
How can you say that it was "an incredible comeback"??? The last drive wasn't a real comback with most of yardage coming from Harper's fumble return.

If it has to be classified as a comeback, it sure was an ugly one. Why would they throw with 2nd and 2 yards to go and 2 timeouts left??? Run and get some yardage to put a better field position for an easy field goal. Instead, they threw 2 incompletions and left Vanderjagt with a long field goal.

It's a little ironic (or something) how close we would be to talking about how great Manning is, to instead talking about how terrible he is in the clutch game.  Give some credit to Pitt's D, they gave the OL and protection schemes fits today.  But, Manning almost lead an incredible comeback against a team that you simply cannot come back on...ever.  If Vandy makes the kick, Indy has all the momentum.

To be fair, how many clutch Vineteri kicks have helped solidify Brady's greatness?  Manning only needed the same kind of kicking help today that has so often been provided to Brady.
:goodposting:
Yep.. Vandy also missed a woulda-been game winner against Miami when Peyton made his first or second trip to the playoffs. The Colts ended up losing in OT in a game where Lamar Smith put up 200 rushing yards for the phins
 

nygiants56

Footballguy
After watching him throw two incompletions with 2nd and 2, approx 40 secs remaining, and TWO timeouts, I'm convinced that Peyton Manning is the second coming of Dan Marino:

He'll pile up Hall of Fame stats, but he'll never win the big one. Never.

Other comparisons: Elway, John and White, Danny (aka Danny Choke)
he isn't on Marino's level..don't insult Dan Marino like that!the truth is,he is more like Dan Fouts! lol..Manning has a lifetime 3-6 post season record, with 2 HOF'ers playing alongside him, Harrison and Edge!!

At least Marino played in a SB, and did MORE with less talent than any other HOF QB..Clayton and Duper are NOT Wayne and Harrison, and he never had a HOF rb like Edgerrin James, either..

Manning never has won the big one, and probably never will..then again , neither will overhyped,overrated Tony Dungy, the worst postseason coach NOT named Marty Shottenheimer.

 

harrycarey

Footballguy
How can you say that it was "an incredible comeback"??? The last drive wasn't a real comback with most of yardage coming from Harper's fumble return.

If it has to be classified as a comeback, it sure was an ugly one. Why would they throw with 2nd and 2 yards to go and 2 timeouts left??? Run and get some yardage to put a better field position for an easy field goal. Instead, they threw 2 incompletions and left Vanderjagt with a long field goal.

It's a little ironic (or something) how close we would be to talking about how great Manning is, to instead talking about how terrible he is in the clutch game. Give some credit to Pitt's D, they gave the OL and protection schemes fits today. But, Manning almost lead an incredible comeback against a team that you simply cannot come back on...ever. If Vandy makes the kick, Indy has all the momentum.

To be fair, how many clutch Vineteri kicks have helped solidify Brady's greatness? Manning only needed the same kind of kicking help today that has so often been provided to Brady.

the 2nd and 2 pass took a great play from a rookie corner to not get called for interference and to break it up and there's no guarantee Edge woulda done anything.. remember him getting stuffed on 3rd and goal from the 3 in the first half?
:goodposting:
Yep.. Vandy also missed a woulda-been game winner against Miami when Peyton made his first or second trip to the playoffs. The Colts ended up losing in OT in a game where Lamar Smith put up 200 rushing yards for the phins
the 2nd and 2 pass took a great play to not get interference and to break it up and Edge wasn't guaranteed to get anything.. remember him getting stuffed on 3rd and goal from the 3 in the first half?
 
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Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
How can you say that it was "an incredible comeback"??? The last drive wasn't a real comback with most of yardage coming from Harper's fumble return.

If it has to be classified as a comeback, it sure was an ugly one. Why would they throw with 2nd and 2 yards to go and 2 timeouts left??? Run and get some yardage to put a better field position for an easy field goal. Instead, they threw 2 incompletions and left Vanderjagt with a long field goal.

It's a little ironic (or something) how close we would be to talking about how great Manning is, to instead talking about how terrible he is in the clutch game.  Give some credit to Pitt's D, they gave the OL and protection schemes fits today.  But, Manning almost lead an incredible comeback against a team that you simply cannot come back on...ever.  If Vandy makes the kick, Indy has all the momentum.

To be fair, how many clutch Vineteri kicks have helped solidify Brady's greatness?  Manning only needed the same kind of kicking help today that has so often been provided to Brady.

It was not a comeback at all! A botched INT call and a fumble return.
:goodposting:
Yep.. Vandy also missed a woulda-been game winner against Miami when Peyton made his first or second trip to the playoffs. The Colts ended up losing in OT in a game where Lamar Smith put up 200 rushing yards for the phins
 

Nihilist Pig

Footballguy
As a long-time (suffering) Oilers fan, I think a more appropriate comparison is Warren Moon.

Look, Moon, Marino and Manning will all rub elbows in Canton some day, but Manning and the Colts collectively came up short, again.

At least they didn't flame out after leading 38-3 in the 3rd quarter.
I agree with this. The great tragedy of Marino's career isn't that he couldn't get it done. It's that he was cursed with such horrible general management that the talent never got put into place to even see if he had what it takes. Getting as far as he did with that '84 team was amazing in its own right.There are better comparisons for Manning out there, with QB's from teams that were loaded for bear in stat-friendly offenses with weapons at every position, yet couldn't get over the hump anyway. Fouts and Moon are the first couple to come to mind. Great QB's, but unlike with Marino, most of the questions were answered with these guys.

That's why I rate Marino over those guys, even though they were all no-title stat compilers in certain respects. Because Marino still has the question, "What if he'd been surrounded by talent?"

Fouts doesn't.

Moon doesn't.

Manning doesn't.

Manning still has time, however.

 
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Carnifex

Footballguy
Too much of the blame is being placed on Manning and not where it should be, with Tony Dungy. He gets outcoached every year in the playoffs. Manning will never win a big game with Dungy at the helm, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he will never win one; he will probably will outlast Dungy.

 
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Fumbleweed

Footballguy
One does have to wonder.... if Manning can'g even get to the AFC Championship game with the team they had this year, then what does it take? Maybe it takes the same thing it took for Bledsoe to get his SB ring.
Again, football is the ultimate team sport. The Colts couldn't get to the AFC title game, not Manning alone. Bledsoe earned his SB ring with a solid AFC title game performance.

The Steelers are a very good team. 29-7 over the last two seasons. Maybe the reason Manning and the Colts couldn't make the AFC title game is that they were playing a team that was equally good/great.

 

harrycarey

Footballguy
I never saw Marino blame his bad game on teammates.
He didn't blame the game on his teammates.. the reporters kept asking about the sacks and protection and peyton tried to put it as nice as he could and said they had some problems with protection. It's not like he said "If the oline woulda done their job we would've won" He also told them he was sorry later and this isn't something he has done before.
 

Boltman

Footballguy
Too much of the blame is being placed on Manning and not where it should be, with Tony Dungy. He gets outcoached every year in the playoffs. Manning will never win a big game with Dungy at the helm, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he will never win one; he will probably will outlast Dungy.
I was wondering when someone would say this. This board is filled with posters who seem to despise Marty Schottenhiemer for not winning the big one and consider him a bad coach. Noone ever seems to question Dungy's ability, even though he has had extremely talented teams that could never get to the big one. Don't get me wrong, I think both of these guys are great coaches just like I think Manning is a great QB, it just seems odd we label one person unable to win the big one (manning, marino, marty) and others don't get this title (dungy, reid, mcnabb, anyone named mora, etc)
 

gman8343

What would Lemmy do?
Too much of the blame is being placed on Manning and not where it should be, with Tony Dungy. He gets outcoached every year in the playoffs. Manning will never win a big game with Dungy at the helm, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he will never win one; he will probably will outlast Dungy.
I was wondering when someone would say this. This board is filled with posters who seem to despise Marty Schottenhiemer for not winning the big one and consider him a bad coach. Noone ever seems to question Dungy's ability, even though he has had extremely talented teams that could never get to the big one. Don't get me wrong, I think both of these guys are great coaches just like I think Manning is a great QB, it just seems odd we label one person unable to win the big one (manning, marino, marty) and others don't get this title (dungy, reid, mcnabb, anyone named mora, etc)
That's basically what Colin Cowherd is saying this morning. PS Marino >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manning! ;)

 

lastresort66

Crude Noisemaker
Too much of the blame is being placed on Manning and not where it should be, with Tony Dungy. He gets outcoached every year in the playoffs. Manning will never win a big game with Dungy at the helm, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he will never win one; he will probably will outlast Dungy.
And I guess Dungy is to blame for giving Peyton waaaay too much freedom to call his own plays. But I think we should be thankful Dungy isn't calling offensive plays in the first place.Tom Moore needs to put a leash on Peyton.

 

Marc Levin

Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Give Marino this D and running game, and he gets the job done. The result may be the same, but Peyton Manning wishes he could be Dan Marino.
I'd be willing to bet that if you just gave him Edge alone...he'd have won at least two...
That was always the problem - Marino was always able to move th eoffense enough to compensate for the lack of D - even in the playoffs (exclusive of the JJ years) - but he never had a running game that could protect the leads they'd build.Marino was fully able to score enough on his own - but he always left too much time on the clock. Especially against Buffalo in the playoffs, Dan Marino was a friggin' hero. The rest of the team? Not so much.

 

BlueOnion

Footballguy
That was always the problem - Marino was always able to move th eoffense enough to compensate for the lack of D - even in the playoffs (exclusive of the JJ years) - but he never had a running game that could protect the leads they'd build.

Marino was fully able to score enough on his own - but he always left too much time on the clock. Especially against Buffalo in the playoffs, Dan Marino was a friggin' hero. The rest of the team? Not so much.
Possibly. But I don't think Marino's ego would allow for this. However, any quarterback who thinks they can continually pass the ball to move an offense are destined to lose more than they win.
 

Marc Levin

Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
That was always the problem - Marino was always able to move th eoffense enough to compensate for the lack of D - even in the playoffs (exclusive of the JJ years) - but he never had a running game that could protect the leads they'd build.

Marino was fully able to score enough on his own - but he always left too much time on the clock. Especially against Buffalo in the playoffs, Dan Marino was a friggin' hero. The rest of the team? Not so much.
Possibly. But I don't think Marino's ego would allow for this. However, any quarterback who thinks they can continually pass the ball to move an offense are destined to lose more than they win.
???You don't know Marino at all if you trhink he would not be content to hand the ball off with a 14 pont lead in the fourth q. - it simply was not an option. During the "clock killing" portions of games, it was often 1st and 10 going to 2nd and 9 and then 3rd and 8 and Marino hitting Clayton or Duper for a 20+ yard play or an incomplete pass and th eother team got th eball back.

Marino would have won at least three playoff games that I can think of off hand - and one AFC Champ game (I think the 2nd to last Buffalo S.B. year was as phin-bills AFC champ game) if he had Edge to kill the clock in the fourth.

 

Marc Levin

Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
I don't think so - I see the direct analogy between Manning and Marino as players - especially reading defenses, identifying blitzers, scooting around in the pocket, and making passes that are "perfect" (can't be intercepted b/c they are darts that are perfectly placed). Also, how hard they are to sack while staying in the pocket the entire game. And Manning is the only QB whose delivery is almost as fast Dan's was. Marino was much more successful at closing out his fourth Q. comebacks into wins.By his second year in the league, I was calling him the second coming of Marnio and I am about as huge a 'phin/Marino fan as you'll find

 
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kingmalaki

Footballguy
As a long-time (suffering) Oilers fan, I think a more appropriate comparison is Warren Moon.

Look, Moon, Marino and Manning will all rub elbows in Canton some day, but Manning and the Colts collectively came up short, again.

At least they didn't flame out after leading 38-3 in the 3rd quarter.
Building your team a 38-3 lead is flaming out (without a stud RB or WR by the way)? Moon never win the big one, but I never recall him having Manning-like happy feet in the pocket...and he took A LOT of hits in the no fullback or TE run and shoot.
 

kingmalaki

Footballguy
As a long-time (suffering) Oilers fan, I think a more appropriate comparison is Warren Moon.

Look, Moon, Marino and Manning will all rub elbows in Canton some day, but Manning and the Colts collectively came up short, again.

At least they didn't flame out after leading 38-3 in the 3rd quarter.
I agree with this. The great tragedy of Marino's career isn't that he couldn't get it done. It's that he was cursed with such horrible general management that the talent never got put into place to even see if he had what it takes. Getting as far as he did with that '84 team was amazing in its own right.There are better comparisons for Manning out there, with QB's from teams that were loaded for bear in stat-friendly offenses with weapons at every position, yet couldn't get over the hump anyway. Fouts and Moon are the first couple to come to mind. Great QB's, but unlike with Marino, most of the questions were answered with these guys.

That's why I rate Marino over those guys, even though they were all no-title stat compilers in certain respects. Because Marino still has the question, "What if he'd been surrounded by talent?"

Fouts doesn't.

Moon doesn't.

Manning doesn't.

Manning still has time, however.
Yes, Moon had a boatload of offensive talent. Drew Hill, Jeffries, Givens, White. :thumbdown: He did have a solid defense though...so solid that they blew a 35 point lead!!!!

 

Marc Levin

Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
As a long-time (suffering) Oilers fan, I think a more appropriate comparison is Warren Moon.

Look, Moon, Marino and Manning will all rub elbows in Canton some day, but Manning and the Colts collectively came up short, again.

At least they didn't flame out after leading 38-3 in the 3rd quarter.
Building your team a 38-3 lead is flaming out (without a stud RB or WR by the way)? Moon never win the big one, but I never recall him having Manning-like happy feet in the pocket...and he took A LOT of hits in the no fullback or TE run and shoot.
I agree Moon is a better comparison - Marino actually went to the Super Bowl once.
 

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