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All-Time NFL Best (1 Viewer)

Reservoir Dog

Footballguy
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........

QB's

1. John Elway -"The Natural". Rocket-arm, extremely mobile in the pocket, & a field general in the huddle. Most wins of any QB all-time.

2. Joe Montana -Was blessed to have WCO architect Bill Walsh, and an abundance of talent around him. But, he was definitely Mr. Clutch.

3. Peyton Manning -In a couple of years, he will own every record that exists for a QB....and he finally got his championship.

4. Dan Marino -Threw the most beautiful ball I ever seen, but never won a Super Bowl. Dan's immobility usually cost him against great D's.

5. Johnny Unitas -One of the toughest to ever play the position, and a genius on the field. He could beat you in many ways.

6. Steve Young -He was an unstoppable force from 1991-97, incredible athlete (ran a 4.4). Would probably be #2 had he played longer.

7. Brett Favre -Toughest to ever play the position. Terrific ironman, but had a penchant for throwing untimely interceptions.

8. Fran Tarkenton -The Purple People Eater....always underrated, could pass and run with the best of them.

9. Tom Brady -Brady is the modern day Johnny U, and if he wins another championship I'll have to rank him in my top 5.

10. Jim Kelly -I hated him, but he was a great QB. He called all the plays, so you know Marv Levy trusted him. However, never won a Super Bowl.

Hon. mentions -Joe Namath, Otto Graham, Warren Moon, Sammy Baugh, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms

RB's

1. Barry Sanders -Has no equal, he would own every record had he not retired so early.

2. Jim Brown -In all the film I've watched of him, he looked like a man among boys. Still has the highest ypc all-time, but he opted for early retirement, and a career in Hollywood. However, the only good movie he made was "The Dirty Dozen".

3. Walter Payton -Sweetness was fun to watch, and very hard to tackle.

4. Emmitt Smith -Incredibly durable, Emmitt was the best player on a team laden with hall of famers.

5. Eric Dickerson -The goggled one was a terrific workhorse. No one exploded through a hole like E.D.

6. Marshall Faulk -God I hated him, but he was the epitome of the all-purpose RB. Best pass catching RB I ever seen.

7. Tony Dorsett -Great all around RB, had a great spin move, and outstanding balance/vision.

8. Curtis Martin -The quintessential workhorse RB. Tough as nails, played his last few years with no cartilage in his knee caps.

9. Ladainian Tomlinson -Incredible specimen, and still going strong. Undoubtedly headed for my all-time top 5.

10. O.J. Simpson -Long before he sliced his wife's head off, O.J. was one of the all-time great runners.

Hon. mentions -Marcus Allen, John Riggins, Earl Campbell, Jerome Bettis, Thurman Thomas, Shaun Alexander, Gale Sayers, Priest Holmes, T.D., Eddie George

WR's

1. Jerry Rice -Simply the greatest, no WR will ever come close to his numbers.

2. Don Hutson -Dominated in an era before the passing game became sophisticated.

3. Cris Carter -Incredible hands, and he did alot more than "just catch touchdowns". No one worked the sideline stripe like Carter did.

4. Marvin Harrison -Seems like he's been playing forever, but still one of the best route runners in the league.

5. Tim Brown -A great all around WR, he did everything well....and even returned kicks in the early part of his career.

6. Randy Moss -The most physically gifted WR I've ever seen. Now has a chance to pad his hall of fame stats in NE.

7. Steve Largent -Outstanding route runner, and he rarely dropped a catchable pass.

8. Terrell Owens -One of the best touchdown scoring WR's of all-time, and he still has some good years left.

9. Andre Reed -Put up some awesome years playing in Buffalo's spread offense.

10. Tory Holt -"Big Game" is on pace to pass Cris Carter for 2nd place in most of the major WR records.

Hon. mentions -Henry Ellard, Art Monk, Irving Fryar, Isaac Bruce, Raymond Berry, Sterling Sharpe, Rod Smith, James Lofton, Hines Ward, Jimmy Smith, Charlie Joiner, Don Maynard

TE's

1. Shannon Sharpe

2. Kellen Winslow

3. Ozzie Newsome

4. Tony Gonzalez

5. Mike Ditka

6. Charlie Sanders

7. Dave Casper

8. John Mackey

9. Ben Coates

10. Jay Novacek

Hon. mention -Antonio Gates

K's

1. Morten Anderson

2. Gary Anderson

3. George Blanda

4. Jan Stenerud

5. Nick Lowery

6. Al Del Greco

7. Jason Elam

8. Eddie Murray

9. Norm Johnson

10. John Carney

Hon. mention -Lou Groza

Who is in your top 10's?

 
I'm always curious why Ditka is so high for TE rankings. After his first four seasons, he was terrible. If Ditka makes the list, so should Gale Sayers.

 
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This is just my opinion, nothing more....honestly I never seen Ditka play, just seen the old footage in the nfl classic videos......but my dad still claims he was the best ever.

 
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........ QB'sHon. mentions -Joe Namath, Otto Graham, Warren Moon, Sammy Baugh, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms
I would've mentionioned one more...Not a spectacular leader, but one of the most entertaining and had some dominating statistical seasons ever for a QB...infact, I'll just let you figure it out...6 single seasons he was one of the top 3 fantasy QBsFrom what I found on Profootballreference.com... he had the 2nd most valuable single statistical season for a QB (2nd only to Marino's 5,000 yd, 48 TD season) :thumbup: by the way
 
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For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........ QB'sHon. mentions -Joe Namath, Otto Graham, Warren Moon, Sammy Baugh, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms
I would've mentionioned one more...Not a spectacular leader, but one of the most entertaining and had some dominating statistical seasons ever for a QB...infact, I'll just let you figure it out...6 times was one of the top 3 fantasy QBsFrom what I found on Profootballreference.com... he had the 2nd most valuable single statistical season for a QB (2nd only to Marino's 5,000 yd, 48 TD season)
Randall Cunningham?? :thumbup:
 
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........ QB's1. John Elway -"The Natural". Rocket-arm, extremely mobile in the pocket, & a field general in the huddle. Most wins of any QB all-time.7. Brett Favre -Toughest to ever play the position. Terrific ironman, but had a penchant for throwing untimely interceptions.
I stopped reading here. Favre will break Elway's compiled-wins record this year, and is much better than Elway in TD/INT ratio and pretty much every other passing statistic. Elway wasn't even the #1 QB in his own draft.
 
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........ QB'sHon. mentions -Joe Namath, Otto Graham, Warren Moon, Sammy Baugh, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms
I would've mentionioned one more...Not a spectacular leader, but one of the most entertaining and had some dominating statistical seasons ever for a QB...infact, I'll just let you figure it out...6 times was one of the top 3 fantasy QBsFrom what I found on Profootballreference.com... he had the 2nd most valuable single statistical season for a QB (2nd only to Marino's 5,000 yd, 48 TD season)
Randall Cunningham?? :thumbup:
yup... 1990: nearly 3500 pass yds, 30 pass TDs, 1000 Rush Yds and 5 more Rush TDsGranted he doesn't doesn't really warrant top 10 consideration, just thought he deserved a mention.
 
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........

QB's

Hon. mentions -Joe Namath, Otto Graham, Warren Moon, Sammy Baugh, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms
I would've mentionioned one more...Not a spectacular leader, but one of the most entertaining and had some dominating statistical seasons ever for a QB...infact, I'll just let you figure it out...

6 times was one of the top 3 fantasy QBs

From what I found on Profootballreference.com... he had the 2nd most valuable single statistical season for a QB (2nd only to Marino's 5,000 yd, 48 TD season)
Randall Cunningham?? :thumbup:
yup... 1990: nearly 3500 pass yds, 30 pass TDs, 1000 Rush Yds and 5 more Rush TDsGranted he doesn't doesn't really warrant top 10 consideration, just thought he deserved a mention.
Ask Carl Banks
 
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........ QB's1. John Elway -"The Natural". Rocket-arm, extremely mobile in the pocket, & a field general in the huddle. Most wins of any QB all-time.7. Brett Favre -Toughest to ever play the position. Terrific ironman, but had a penchant for throwing untimely interceptions.
I stopped reading here. Favre will break Elway's compiled-wins record this year, and is much better than Elway in TD/INT ratio and pretty much every other passing statistic. Elway wasn't even the #1 QB in his own draft.
Right... he was just the #1 PLAYER in his own draft. Favre can't hold Elway's jockstrap.
 
Elway had WAY too many meltdowns in big games. You can't excuse his awful play in 3 different super bowls. Not even top 10.

 
CalBear said:
Reservoir Dog said:
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........ QB's1. John Elway -"The Natural". Rocket-arm, extremely mobile in the pocket, & a field general in the huddle. Most wins of any QB all-time.7. Brett Favre -Toughest to ever play the position. Terrific ironman, but had a penchant for throwing untimely interceptions.
I stopped reading here. Favre will break Elway's compiled-wins record this year, and is much better than Elway in TD/INT ratio and pretty much every other passing statistic. Elway wasn't even the #1 QB in his own draft.
And despite playing for a long time in the weakest division of the weakest conference, Favre has struggled to do anything at all in the postseason outside of his two-year run.Elway's brilliance always came from the fact that he did the most with the least. Even if Favre passes Elway's total wins, he's not going to pass Elway's winning percentage, and Elway put up all those wins despite averaging about half as many pro bowl teammates per season as all the other HoF QBs (about a third as many as Jim Kelly, and with a mere fraction of the offensive help that Dan Marino had).Elway made more SBs than any other QB in his draft class. He finished with more wins than any other QB in his draft class. He also played with far less surrounding talent than any other QB in his draft class. He played in the league for a decade before he had his first Pro Bowl WR. If you exclude the final 3 years of his career (which everyone thinks are the reason he was a HoFer, when in reality the stuff that made him so great all happened in the late 80s/early 90s), then he had about a third as many pro-bowl offensive linemen as Dan Marino. If you take out the QB rushing numbers, Elway's Superbowl Denver Broncos rushed for about as much per season as Dan Marino's "What Would He Be If He Only Had an RB" Dolphins. Despite this, he finished with more wins, comparable stats per pass attempt, and *WAY BETTER* rushing numbers. He was, in fact, the best QB in his own draft class.
Elway had WAY too many meltdowns in big games. You can't excuse his awful play in 3 different super bowls. Not even top 10.
First off, Elway holds the NFL record for most Conference Championship Game wins (5-1 in the AFCCG, which is freaking phenominal)... so what you really mean when you say "meltdowns in big games" is "meltdowns in superbowls"... because I would certainly call the AFC Championship Game a pretty unbelievably big game, and I'd hardly call "The Drive" a meltdown.Second off, Elway didn't play awful in three different Super Bowls. He was 22-37 for 304 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT in his first SB appearance (that's a solid 8.2 yards per attempt, and a QB rating of 83.6- hardly a "meltdown" or "awful"). So, looking at it, Elway played in 5 superbowls and played solid-or-better in three of the five. He also appeared in 6 AFCCGs and played phenominally in 4 of them, mediocre in a fifth, and poorly in a sixth. That's 11 "big games" here, and Elway was good or better in 7 of them (and only really "bad" in 3). Oh yeah, that's a solid history of melting down in big games. :bye: Third off, have you ever noticed that Denver never won a game in the playoffs when Elway played poorly? You know why that was? Because the TEAM AROUND HIM WAS MEDIOCRE, and that's being generous. I'd rather have a QB who is so phenominal that he wills a mediocre team to a superbowl and then chokes it away than a QB who can't get an above-average team out of the first round of the playoffs (Brett Favre, I'm looking at you).You're a Browns fan, right BGP? I'm not surprised that you're grasping at any possible excuse (however ludicrous) to exclude Elway from the top 10, but I'm really surprised that you seem to think he plays poorly in big games. In his three games against the Browns in the AFCCG, he went 20/35 for 385 and 3/0, 14/26 for 281 and 3/1, and in the third he engineered "The Drive". In other words, two games with 10+ yards per attempt and 3 TDs, and a third game with the most clutch, fundamentally sound, biggest drive in the history of the NFL. I suppose you've just forgotten all about that (blocked it from your memory is more likely)- or maybe you're like the rest of the league and you don't consider any game against the Cleveland Browns to be a "big game"? :cry: Oh, and before someone comes forward and tries to tell me that Elway stunk in the AFCCG against the Jets and I'm being generous by just calling it mediocre, here's a little comparison for you. Elway's AFCCG against the Jets- 13/34 for 173 and 1/0 (with 13 yards rushing). Tom Brady's "MVP Performance" against the Rams- 16/27 for 145 and 1/0 (with 3 yards rushing). I'm just sayin'.
 
YES!!!!!!!! Thank you, SSOG!

If these guys really believe any of their Elway bashing, then they are either:

a.) Browns fans (as you pointed out) or

b.) 15 years old or

c.) don't watch football

 
if not already mentioned, Ill do it, but leaving Adam Vinatieri off a top 10 list of all-timers at his position is almost like leaving hotdog and hamburger off a top 10 of all-time most popular american foods. the guy has 4 rings, and had alot to do with each one of them. otherwise, nice lists....always tough to rank all-timers. good job.

 
How there's absolutely no mention of Bo Jackson is beyond me.
Meh, Bo Jackson was a flash in the pan. If he'd stayed healthy, he might merit the list. As it stands, Terrell Davis was a far brighter flash in the pan, and a far more productive flash in the pan, and he barely gets honorable mention status.Edit: actually, I'll break it down better for you. Here is a link to Bo's PFR page. Allow me to highlight part of that page-

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1987 rai | 7 | 81 554 6.8 4 | 16 136 8.5 2 |

| 1988 rai | 10 | 136 580 4.3 3 | 9 79 8.8 0 |

| 1989 rai | 11 | 173 950 5.5 4 | 9 69 7.7 0 |

| 1990 rai | 10 | 125 698 5.6 5 | 6 68 11.3 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 38 | 515 2782 5.4 16 | 40 352 8.8 2 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Bo Jackson never finished in the top 10 in any major category.

Bo Jackson is not in the all-time top 50 in any major category.

We clear on this now?

 
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Elway had WAY too many meltdowns in big games. You can't excuse his awful play in 3 different super bowls. Not even top 10.
Was "The Drive" a meltdown?Edit: Should have known SSOG would beat me to it. :D
 
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CalBear said:
Reservoir Dog said:
For your amusement, here are my all-time NFL top 10's (offensive skill position)........ QB's1. John Elway -"The Natural". Rocket-arm, extremely mobile in the pocket, & a field general in the huddle. Most wins of any QB all-time.7. Brett Favre -Toughest to ever play the position. Terrific ironman, but had a penchant for throwing untimely interceptions.
I stopped reading here. Favre will break Elway's compiled-wins record this year, and is much better than Elway in TD/INT ratio and pretty much every other passing statistic. Elway wasn't even the #1 QB in his own draft.
And despite playing for a long time in the weakest division of the weakest conference, Favre has struggled to do anything at all in the postseason outside of his two-year run.Elway's brilliance always came from the fact that he did the most with the least. Even if Favre passes Elway's total wins, he's not going to pass Elway's winning percentage, and Elway put up all those wins despite averaging about half as many pro bowl teammates per season as all the other HoF QBs (about a third as many as Jim Kelly, and with a mere fraction of the offensive help that Dan Marino had).Elway made more SBs than any other QB in his draft class. He finished with more wins than any other QB in his draft class. He also played with far less surrounding talent than any other QB in his draft class. He played in the league for a decade before he had his first Pro Bowl WR. If you exclude the final 3 years of his career (which everyone thinks are the reason he was a HoFer, when in reality the stuff that made him so great all happened in the late 80s/early 90s), then he had about a third as many pro-bowl offensive linemen as Dan Marino. If you take out the QB rushing numbers, Elway's Superbowl Denver Broncos rushed for about as much per season as Dan Marino's "What Would He Be If He Only Had an RB" Dolphins. Despite this, he finished with more wins, comparable stats per pass attempt, and *WAY BETTER* rushing numbers. He was, in fact, the best QB in his own draft class.
Elway had WAY too many meltdowns in big games. You can't excuse his awful play in 3 different super bowls. Not even top 10.
First off, Elway holds the NFL record for most Conference Championship Game wins (5-1 in the AFCCG, which is freaking phenominal)... so what you really mean when you say "meltdowns in big games" is "meltdowns in superbowls"... because I would certainly call the AFC Championship Game a pretty unbelievably big game, and I'd hardly call "The Drive" a meltdown.Second off, Elway didn't play awful in three different Super Bowls. He was 22-37 for 304 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT in his first SB appearance (that's a solid 8.2 yards per attempt, and a QB rating of 83.6- hardly a "meltdown" or "awful"). So, looking at it, Elway played in 5 superbowls and played solid-or-better in three of the five. He also appeared in 6 AFCCGs and played phenominally in 4 of them, mediocre in a fifth, and poorly in a sixth. That's 11 "big games" here, and Elway was good or better in 7 of them (and only really "bad" in 3). Oh yeah, that's a solid history of melting down in big games. :yes: Third off, have you ever noticed that Denver never won a game in the playoffs when Elway played poorly? You know why that was? Because the TEAM AROUND HIM WAS MEDIOCRE, and that's being generous. I'd rather have a QB who is so phenominal that he wills a mediocre team to a superbowl and then chokes it away than a QB who can't get an above-average team out of the first round of the playoffs (Brett Favre, I'm looking at you).You're a Browns fan, right BGP? I'm not surprised that you're grasping at any possible excuse (however ludicrous) to exclude Elway from the top 10, but I'm really surprised that you seem to think he plays poorly in big games. In his three games against the Browns in the AFCCG, he went 20/35 for 385 and 3/0, 14/26 for 281 and 3/1, and in the third he engineered "The Drive". In other words, two games with 10+ yards per attempt and 3 TDs, and a third game with the most clutch, fundamentally sound, biggest drive in the history of the NFL. I suppose you've just forgotten all about that (blocked it from your memory is more likely)- or maybe you're like the rest of the league and you don't consider any game against the Cleveland Browns to be a "big game"? :thumbdown: Oh, and before someone comes forward and tries to tell me that Elway stunk in the AFCCG against the Jets and I'm being generous by just calling it mediocre, here's a little comparison for you. Elway's AFCCG against the Jets- 13/34 for 173 and 1/0 (with 13 yards rushing). Tom Brady's "MVP Performance" against the Rams- 16/27 for 145 and 1/0 (with 3 yards rushing). I'm just sayin'.
Wins are a team stat, not a QB stat, so any mention of QB wins is totally invalid to me. John Elway was surrounded by extremely strong talent his entire career, in particular several good to elite defenses. They even posted the #1 defense in 1989. Elway sucked in his second, third, and fourth super bowls. If you recall the Broncos-Packers super bowl, the Broncos were beating the Packers thru Terrell Davis. TD leaves the game with a migraine, and the Packers start eating Elway alive. Let's also not forget that once the Broncos got in position to win the game, Elway tried to give the game right back to the Pack with a dumb pick down at the goalline. He even did his classic "brain-cramp" clutch-at-the-helmet pose he so often did when he made bad throws.Elway built his rep on beating soft-prevent defenses. Everyone knows this. That is what he beat in the 1986 game. Have you watched the 1987 AFCC game? I did. The Broncos constructed a 21-3 lead off of turnovers forced by their defense and their running game. The opened the game with lots of running plays on offense. Then, after they had 21-3 lead, they gave the ball to Elway and he started stinking up the joint in the first half. he made terrible throws, killing drives, and let the Browns get back in the game.I could go on, the bottom line is you can't tell me Elway is the #1 QB of all time when he stinks in 3/5 super bowls. That's just not gonna work.
 
The homerism charge is BS as well. It makes me sick to see Bill Belichick succeed in New England when I know he should be winning in Cleveland. But that doesn't stop me from praising his effort - he's truly an all-time head coach.

 
And despite playing for a long time in the weakest division of the weakest conference, Favre has struggled to do anything at all in the postseason outside of his two-year run.
Are you going to try to claim that the AFC was the better conference when Elway made his first 3 Super Bowls? At best it was a transition time when he won his 2.
Elway's brilliance always came from the fact that he did the most with the least. Even if Favre passes Elway's total wins, he's not going to pass Elway's winning percentage, and Elway put up all those wins despite averaging about half as many pro bowl teammates per season as all the other HoF QBs (about a third as many as Jim Kelly, and with a mere fraction of the offensive help that Dan Marino had).
You don't think Marino's amazing ability had anything to do with raising the level of play of those around him to pro bowl status? Also, maybe it was because the conference itself was a shadow of the NFC, so it was easier to win with less talent as there were no great teams in the 80s.
Elway made more SBs than any other QB in his draft class. He finished with more wins than any other QB in his draft class. He also played with far less surrounding talent than any other QB in his draft class. He played in the league for a decade before he had his first Pro Bowl WR. If you exclude the final 3 years of his career (which everyone thinks are the reason he was a HoFer, when in reality the stuff that made him so great all happened in the late 80s/early 90s), then he had about a third as many pro-bowl offensive linemen as Dan Marino. If you take out the QB rushing numbers, Elway's Superbowl Denver Broncos rushed for about as much per season as Dan Marino's "What Would He Be If He Only Had an RB" Dolphins. Despite this, he finished with more wins, comparable stats per pass attempt, and *WAY BETTER* rushing numbers. He was, in fact, the best QB in his own draft class.
Marino had *WAY BETTER* passing numbers, and lets not get carried away with the wins statistic. First off thats largely a team thing. Second, Marino had 147 to Elways 148. And they both have a similar winning percentage with Dan having started 9 more games.
...Second off, Elway didn't play awful in three different Super Bowls. He was 22-37 for 304 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT in his first SB appearance (that's a solid 8.2 yards per attempt, and a QB rating of 83.6- hardly a "meltdown" or "awful").
Thats just cherry picking. He did not play well in that Super Bowl. He started well and ended well and completely sucked in the middle, including surrendering a safety. They scored 10 meaningful points and 10 garbage time points. Pretty much they were completely ineffective on offense in the second and third quarters. Now, some of this is because the Giants were the far superior team, but he hardly played well in that game. A meaningless 47 yard TD pass with 2 minutes left certainly pads his stats considerably.
Third off, have you ever noticed that Denver never won a game in the playoffs when Elway played poorly? You know why that was? Because the TEAM AROUND HIM WAS MEDIOCRE, and that's being generous. I'd rather have a QB who is so phenominal that he wills a mediocre team to a superbowl and then chokes it away than a QB who can't get an above-average team out of the first round of the playoffs (Brett Favre, I'm looking at you).
Ever notice that his entire conference was mediocre?
You're a Browns fan, right BGP? I'm not surprised that you're grasping at any possible excuse (however ludicrous) to exclude Elway from the top 10, but I'm really surprised that you seem to think he plays poorly in big games. In his three games against the Browns in the AFCCG, he went 20/35 for 385 and 3/0, 14/26 for 281 and 3/1, and in the third he engineered "The Drive". In other words, two games with 10+ yards per attempt and 3 TDs, and a third game with the most clutch, fundamentally sound, biggest drive in the history of the NFL. I suppose you've just forgotten all about that (blocked it from your memory is more likely)- or maybe you're like the rest of the league and you don't consider any game against the Cleveland Browns to be a "big game"? :P
Wow, he was able to lift them past another mediocre team. Great drive and all, but don't act like it was against the 85 Bears defense or even the 86 Giants.
Oh, and before someone comes forward and tries to tell me that Elway stunk in the AFCCG against the Jets and I'm being generous by just calling it mediocre, here's a little comparison for you. Elway's AFCCG against the Jets- 13/34 for 173 and 1/0 (with 13 yards rushing). Tom Brady's "MVP Performance" against the Rams- 16/27 for 145 and 1/0 (with 3 yards rushing). I'm just sayin'.
Im glad we can agree Brady in no way shape or form deserved that MVP.While I agree with Elway in the top 10, I just cant agree with him as #1, maybe top 5. Fact is, if Peyton wins one more Super Bowl, it won't even be a discussion in about 5-10 years unless you're one of the idiots that ranks QBs only by SB wins.
 
While I agree with Elway in the top 10, I just cant agree with him as #1, maybe top 5. Fact is, if Peyton wins one more Super Bowl, it won't even be a discussion in about 5-10 years unless you're one of the idiots that ranks QBs only by SB wins.
Playoff stats mean a lot to me. I put Joe Montana far ahead of anyone else due to his playoffs stats:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MontJo01.htm

In postseason play he threw 45 TD to only 21 INTs. That's better than a 2:1 ratio - against the top teams in those given seasons. That's unbelievable. Peyton Manning himself is only at 18 TDs to 15 INTs in the playoffs. Tom Brady is way up there at 20 TDs to 9 INTs in the postseason.

So Montana is #1 to me and the only guy who might eclipse him is Tom Brady. Right now I have Brady at #2. Brady went thru the entire 2004 playoffs and super bowl, won it all and never threw one pick. Now that's what I'm talking about!

 
I guess you could say I view the NFL playoffs is a "league" unto itself. Its a higher level of play than the NFL regular season. So it becomes a question of who puts up the best stats in the best league. And that's Joe Montana.

 
While I agree with Elway in the top 10, I just cant agree with him as #1, maybe top 5. Fact is, if Peyton wins one more Super Bowl, it won't even be a discussion in about 5-10 years unless you're one of the idiots that ranks QBs only by SB wins.
Playoff stats mean a lot to me. I put Joe Montana far ahead of anyone else due to his playoffs stats:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MontJo01.htm

In postseason play he threw 45 TD to only 21 INTs. That's better than a 2:1 ratio - against the top teams in those given seasons. That's unbelievable. Peyton Manning himself is only at 18 TDs to 15 INTs in the playoffs. Tom Brady is way up there at 20 TDs to 9 INTs in the postseason.

So Montana is #1 to me and the only guy who might eclipse him is Tom Brady. Right now I have Brady at #2. Brady went thru the entire 2004 playoffs and super bowl, won it all and never threw one pick. Now that's what I'm talking about!
So instead of SB wins you base it off TD:int ratio? Not all ints are created equal. For instance I can think of 2 or 3 Manning ints this past playoffs that were essentially punts and did not hurt the team. Meanwhile a pick 6 or red zone pick is very detrimental to the team. Meanwhile, there can be any number of reasons for zero picks in a game. Anywhere from safe playcalling to good play to just small sample size. Then consider that one horrid game or playing beyond your prime can severely effect those stats. Plus, you discount at least 80% of a players games as meaningless. Anything other than looking at the totality of a player's career to determine the number 1 player of all time is just an attempt to simplify things to make it easier on you - not to get an accurate result.
 
if not already mentioned, Ill do it, but leaving Adam Vinatieri off a top 10 list of all-timers at his position is almost like leaving hotdog and hamburger off a top 10 of all-time most popular american foods. the guy has 4 rings, and had alot to do with each one of them. otherwise, nice lists....always tough to rank all-timers. good job.
:banned: Thanks for sticking your neck out there. :bag: These lists are easy to ridicule, not so easy to make up your own.
 
Wins are a team stat, not a QB stat, so any mention of QB wins is totally invalid to me. John Elway was surrounded by extremely strong talent his entire career, in particular several good to elite defenses. They even posted the #1 defense in 1989. Elway sucked in his second, third, and fourth super bowls. If you recall the Broncos-Packers super bowl, the Broncos were beating the Packers thru Terrell Davis. TD leaves the game with a migraine, and the Packers start eating Elway alive. Let's also not forget that once the Broncos got in position to win the game, Elway tried to give the game right back to the Pack with a dumb pick down at the goalline. He even did his classic "brain-cramp" clutch-at-the-helmet pose he so often did when he made bad throws.

Elway built his rep on beating soft-prevent defenses. Everyone knows this. That is what he beat in the 1986 game. Have you watched the 1987 AFCC game? I did. The Broncos constructed a 21-3 lead off of turnovers forced by their defense and their running game. The opened the game with lots of running plays on offense. Then, after they had 21-3 lead, they gave the ball to Elway and he started stinking up the joint in the first half. he made terrible throws, killing drives, and let the Browns get back in the game.

I could go on, the bottom line is you can't tell me Elway is the #1 QB of all time when he stinks in 3/5 super bowls. That's just not gonna work.
Again, why not? Even if you do say he stunk in 3 superbowls, that's cherry picking an awfully small sample size, isn't it? Elway played in 11 "championship games", and rocked the house in at least 6 of them (depending on what games you define as solid). That's more good games than bad games, no matter how you slice it, and is hardly the stuff that "chokers" are made of. He was 5-1 in the AFC Championship game. That's an NFL record. He appeared in 5 Superbowls. That's another NFL record for quarterbacks. He must have been doing something right.Seriously, are you trying to suggest that you would consider a QB who went 1-0 in Superbowls to be superior to a QB who went 2-3 in superbowls? In the end, something has to be said about a player's ability to make the big game in the first place. In almost a third of Elway's seasons, he was in the superbowl. That's unreal.

Now, you want to talk about the "extremely strong talent" that John Elway was surrounded by in his career. You mention the 1989 franchise. Oh yeah, that was an elite team. According to ESPN, it was the 58th best superbowl team in history. Of course, that's leaps and bounds better than the other two 80's superbowl teams, which checked in at 64th and 75th. The Broncos made the superbowl with two of the worst SB franchises in NFL history, as well as a third franchise that was merely well below average. The common denominator? John Elway, that guy you claim was surrounded by so much talent.

Seriously, take Elway off those teams, and where do you think they would have been ranked in that list? I'll tell you where- 80th and 79th, and maybe 65th or so for the 1989 franchise.

Are you going to try to claim that the AFC was the better conference when Elway made his first 3 Super Bowls? At best it was a transition time when he won his 2.
Look at head-to-head conference records before you start declaring the NFC the superior conference.
You don't think Marino's amazing ability had anything to do with raising the level of play of those around him to pro bowl status? Also, maybe it was because the conference itself was a shadow of the NFC, so it was easier to win with less talent as there were no great teams in the 80s.
No, I don't think it's a question of Marino elevating everyone's play. I mean, Rod Smith looked like a stud with Elway at the helm, didn't he? What, did Elway just learn the art of elevating his teammates play in 1996, and he was incapable of it before that?No, I tend to believe that Mark Clayton and Mark Duper were simply drastically superior to any WRs that Elway had lining up with him until the very twilight of his career, and guys like Ray Foster and Dwight Stephenson were simply drastically superior to any OLinemen Elway had lining up in front of him until the twilight of his career.

Im glad we can agree Brady in no way shape or form deserved that MVP.

While I agree with Elway in the top 10, I just cant agree with him as #1, maybe top 5. Fact is, if Peyton wins one more Super Bowl, it won't even be a discussion in about 5-10 years unless you're one of the idiots that ranks QBs only by SB wins.
I have no problem with someone who says that Elway wasn't #1. I only have a problem with someone who suggests that Elway wasn't even in the top 10. That person has clearly never watched football before.I also have a problem with anyone who doesn't acknowledge how impressive Elway was in the late 80s/early 90s. For all the talk about how the Dolphins didn't get Marino this or that, no QB in the league has ever been as much of a one-man show as Elway was during that span. During his first ten years in the league, Elway played two seasons with a pro bowl OL and none with a pro bowl WR. Dan Marino beat that in his rookie season alone, playing on a team with 3 pro bowl linemen and 1 pro bowl WR. Think about that- Marino had more pro bowl help on offense in his rookie year than Elway did in his first decade with the Broncos (yet Elway still made three SBs during that span). And try looking at Elway's passing numbers when he finally DID get the talent around him. Even those he was well past his peak, compare his numbers to Marino's numbers in his prime sometime. Yards per attempt, completion percentage, TDs per attempt... all of these numbers were superior to the numbers Marino put up with comparable surrounding talent, *AND* Elway had the rushing numbers and superbowl wins going for him, *AND* this was after Elway was clearly past his peak. Surround him with as many studs as Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, or Dan Marino had on offense, and Elway would own all of the records today, not Marino.

 
Reservoir Dog said:
QB's

1. John Elway -"The Natural". Rocket-arm, extremely mobile in the pocket, & a field general in the huddle. Most wins of any QB all-time.

2. Joe Montana -Was blessed to have WCO architect Bill Walsh, and an abundance of talent around him. But, he was definitely Mr. Clutch.

3. Peyton Manning -In a couple of years, he will own every record that exists for a QB....and he finally got his championship.

4. Dan Marino -Threw the most beautiful ball I ever seen, but never won a Super Bowl. Dan's immobility usually cost him against great D's.

5. Johnny Unitas -One of the toughest to ever play the position, and a genius on the field. He could beat you in many ways.

6. Steve Young -He was an unstoppable force from 1991-97, incredible athlete (ran a 4.4). Would probably be #2 had he played longer.

7. Brett Favre -Toughest to ever play the position. Terrific ironman, but had a penchant for throwing untimely interceptions.

8. Fran Tarkenton -The Purple People Eater....always underrated, could pass and run with the best of them.

9. Tom Brady -Brady is the modern day Johnny U, and if he wins another championship I'll have to rank him in my top 5.

10. Jim Kelly -I hated him, but he was a great QB. He called all the plays, so you know Marv Levy trusted him. However, never won a Super Bowl.

Hon. mentions -Joe Namath, Otto Graham, Warren Moon, Sammy Baugh, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms
I'm not sure if they were intentionally omitted or not, but personally, I'd take Roger Staubach and Sonny Jurgensen over at least Namath, Moon, Fouts, Layne, Aikman and Simms. I'd probably even take Len Dawson above that group, as well.My personal top 10:

1. Joe Montana

2. Johnny Unitas

3. Dan Marino

4. Sonny Jurgenson

5. Brett Favre

6. John Elway

7. Fran Tarkenton

8. Bart Starr

9. Otto Graham

10. Steve Young

After 1-3, about the only thing that separates 4-10 is personal preference (i.e. you can rank them any way you want and I wouldn't complain).

Hon. Men. (in no particular order) - Peyton Manning, Sammy Baugh, George Blanda, Roger Staubach, Len Dawson, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman

Any of those guys could be included in the bottom half of a top 10 and would get no argument from me. (ETA - by the time Manning's career is over he will almost have certainly cracked my top 7 and maybe even my top 5)

 
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Again, why not? Even if you do say he stunk in 3 superbowls, that's cherry picking an awfully small sample size, isn't it? Elway played in 11 "championship games", and rocked the house in at least 6 of them (depending on what games you define as solid). That's more good games than bad games, no matter how you slice it, and is hardly the stuff that "chokers" are made of.
The question isn't whether Elway is better than Elvis Grbac. The question is whether he's better than QBs who are better in every passing statistic, and have no record of choking in Super Bowls, such as Joe Montana.
 
SSOG, you are the Man.

I also don't have a problem with someone arguing Elway is not the #1 QB of all time. But there's no way he's out of the top 5 and there's no way Favre ranks higher.

As far as the Super Bowl losses/performances, that argument doesn't hold much water with me. If you recall the NFC's 13-game Super Bowl win streak, that run was mostly characterized by dominant teams, where you could pretty much tell by the end of the season who was going to take it all. The 1986 Giants were one of those teams. There was no way on earth that they were going to lose that game. In 1989 the Broncos played the greatest franchise of the decade (Montana's 49'ers) who were one Mike Cofer missed extra-point away from playing probably the most perfect game in NFL history. Elway and the Broncos get a free pass in those two games. The only one that was really disappointing was the 1987 season against the Redskins.

Regardless, as SSOG pointed out, Elway led his team to a record 6 AFC Championship games and a record 5 Super Bowls.

 
CalBear and BGP systematically attack any Elway praise in any of these all time great threads. Logic is useless here, because they are so blinded by an emotional hatred.

I know why BGP hates Elway - I've never met a Brown fan who doesn't hate Elway with all his heart and soul, and I understand why. I'm assuming CalBear's bias stems from a Stanford/Cal thing, but i'm not sure.

 
During his first ten years in the league, Elway played two seasons with a pro bowl OL and none with a pro bowl WR. Dan Marino beat that in his rookie season alone, playing on a team with 3 pro bowl linemen and 1 pro bowl WR. Think about that- Marino had more pro bowl help on offense in his rookie year than Elway did in his first decade with the Broncos (yet Elway still made three SBs during that span).
Seems like you are lending an AWFUL amount of weight to the credibility of Pro Bowlers. Is this always your measuring stick for quality NFL players, or just in this one instance?
 
During his first ten years in the league, Elway played two seasons with a pro bowl OL and none with a pro bowl WR. Dan Marino beat that in his rookie season alone, playing on a team with 3 pro bowl linemen and 1 pro bowl WR. Think about that- Marino had more pro bowl help on offense in his rookie year than Elway did in his first decade with the Broncos (yet Elway still made three SBs during that span).
Seems like you are lending an AWFUL amount of weight to the credibility of Pro Bowlers. Is this always your measuring stick for quality NFL players, or just in this one instance?
would you prefer to look at numbers:Bronco WR corps in 80's SB years:

1986:

Mark Jackson | 16 | 2 6 3.0 0 | 38 738 19.4 1 |

| Vance Johnson | 12 | 5 15 3.0 0 | 31 363 11.7 2 |

| Clint Sampson | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 21 259 12.3 0 |

| Steve Watson | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 45 699 15.5 3 |

1987:

| Sam Graddy | 1 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

| Mark Jackson | 12 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 26 436 16.8 2 |

| Vance Johnson | 11 | 1 -8 -8.0 0 | 42 684 16.3 7 |

| Ricky Nattiel | 12 | 2 13 6.5 0 | 31 630 20.3 2 |

| Steve Watson | 5 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 11 167 15.2 1

1989:

| Mark Jackson | 16 | 5 13 2.6 0 | 28 446 15.9 2 |

| Vance Johnson | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 76 1095 14.4 7 |

| Ricky Nattiel | 8 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 10 183 18.3 1 |

| Mike Young | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 22 402 18.3 2

so - how fair is it to compare Elways passing stats when the best WR he had to work with in his prime was Vance Johnson - career high = 76 catches for 1095 yards?

Maybe the Broncos were a run-centric team. Should be a 1000 yard back somewhere, no?

:shrug: In 1986, Broncos were 20th in rushing yards. In 1987, they were 12, and in 1989, they were 6th (bobby humphrey was Elways first 1K yard back).

Measuring the OL: I don't know of a better way to judge who had the better supporting cast other than pro-bowl.

 
How there's absolutely no mention of Bo Jackson is beyond me.
Meh, Bo Jackson was a flash in the pan. If he'd stayed healthy, he might merit the list. As it stands, Terrell Davis was a far brighter flash in the pan, and a far more productive flash in the pan, and he barely gets honorable mention status.Edit: actually, I'll break it down better for you. Here is a link to Bo's PFR page. Allow me to highlight part of that page-

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1987 rai | 7 | 81 554 6.8 4 | 16 136 8.5 2 |

| 1988 rai | 10 | 136 580 4.3 3 | 9 79 8.8 0 |

| 1989 rai | 11 | 173 950 5.5 4 | 9 69 7.7 0 |

| 1990 rai | 10 | 125 698 5.6 5 | 6 68 11.3 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 38 | 515 2782 5.4 16 | 40 352 8.8 2 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Bo Jackson never finished in the top 10 in any major category.

Bo Jackson is not in the all-time top 50 in any major category.

We clear on this now?
Everybody knows this. He should be HM for his ability alone.
 
Look at head-to-head conference records before you start declaring the NFC the superior conference.....And try looking at Elway's passing numbers when he finally DID get the talent around him. Even those he was well past his peak, compare his numbers to Marino's numbers in his prime sometime. Yards per attempt, completion percentage, TDs per attempt... all of these numbers were superior to the numbers Marino put up with comparable surrounding talent, *AND* Elway had the rushing numbers and superbowl wins going for him, *AND* this was after Elway was clearly past his peak. Surround him with as many studs as Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, or Dan Marino had on offense, and Elway would own all of the records today, not Marino.
Sorry, but conference records really aren't that meaningful when there were no more than 5 teams any given year that could win the SB, and they were all in the NFC. If it wasn't the Skins year, it was the Giants or the 49ers or even the Bears. There wasn't parity so conference records mean just about squat. ....I think you're really underestimating Marino here. During his prime his passing skills were unmatched. Atleast with Elway you had to worry about him running, with Marino you knew it was all on his arm. He's still got the best release I've ever seen.
 
Elway would own all of the records today, not Marino.
I think you're really underestimating Marino here. During his prime his passing skills were unmatched. Atleast with Elway you had to worry about him running, with Marino you knew it was all on his arm. He's still got the best release I've ever seen.
1) SSOG: Favre will break the major records Marino has this season, he already holds the completion mark on fewer attempts than Marino, too.2) dparker: To your point, with a mere 89 career rush yards, Marino was a liability to the offense because he posed zero threat to leave the pocket. Part of being a QB is the ability to make things happen with your feet, Marino could not. Evaluation of the position can't simply be limited to passing numbers.Favre should be on a par with Elway and well ahead of Marino in all time rankings.
 
Reservoir Dog said:
QB's

1. John Elway -"The Natural". Rocket-arm, extremely mobile in the pocket, & a field general in the huddle. Most wins of any QB all-time.

2. Joe Montana -Was blessed to have WCO architect Bill Walsh, and an abundance of talent around him. But, he was definitely Mr. Clutch.

3. Peyton Manning -In a couple of years, he will own every record that exists for a QB....and he finally got his championship.

4. Dan Marino -Threw the most beautiful ball I ever seen, but never won a Super Bowl. Dan's immobility usually cost him against great D's.

5. Johnny Unitas -One of the toughest to ever play the position, and a genius on the field. He could beat you in many ways.

6. Steve Young -He was an unstoppable force from 1991-97, incredible athlete (ran a 4.4). Would probably be #2 had he played longer.

7. Brett Favre -Toughest to ever play the position. Terrific ironman, but had a penchant for throwing untimely interceptions.

8. Fran Tarkenton -The Purple People Eater....always underrated, could pass and run with the best of them.

9. Tom Brady -Brady is the modern day Johnny U, and if he wins another championship I'll have to rank him in my top 5.

10. Jim Kelly -I hated him, but he was a great QB. He called all the plays, so you know Marv Levy trusted him. However, never won a Super Bowl.

Hon. mentions -Joe Namath, Otto Graham, Warren Moon, Sammy Baugh, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Bobby Layne, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms
I'm not sure if they were intentionally omitted or not, but personally, I'd take Roger Staubach and Sonny Jurgensen over at least Namath, Moon, Fouts, Layne, Aikman and Simms. I'd probably even take Len Dawson above that group, as well.My personal top 10:

1. Joe Montana

2. Johnny Unitas

3. Dan Marino

4. Sonny Jurgenson

5. Brett Favre

6. John Elway

7. Fran Tarkenton

8. Bart Starr

9. Otto Graham

10. Steve Young

After 1-3, about the only thing that separates 4-10 is personal preference (i.e. you can rank them any way you want and I wouldn't complain).

Hon. Men. (in no particular order) - Peyton Manning, Sammy Baugh, George Blanda, Roger Staubach, Len Dawson, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman

Any of those guys could be included in the bottom half of a top 10 and would get no argument from me. (ETA - by the time Manning's career is over he will almost have certainly cracked my top 7 and maybe even my top 5)
"Hi, I'm one of those people who can't stop living in the past. Check out my list of all-time great quarterbacks that includes a handful of guys that, while good in their era, couldn't carry Manning or Brady's jock."
 
Elway would own all of the records today, not Marino.
I think you're really underestimating Marino here. During his prime his passing skills were unmatched. Atleast with Elway you had to worry about him running, with Marino you knew it was all on his arm. He's still got the best release I've ever seen.
1) SSOG: Favre will break the major records Marino has this season, he already holds the completion mark on fewer attempts than Marino, too.2) dparker: To your point, with a mere 89 career rush yards, Marino was a liability to the offense because he posed zero threat to leave the pocket. Part of being a QB is the ability to make things happen with your feet, Marino could not. Evaluation of the position can't simply be limited to passing numbers.

Favre should be on a par with Elway and well ahead of Marino in all time rankings.
Thats just not true. Marino's feet bought him time in the pocket which led to better passing stats. Are you going to say that because he would make a pass for 10 yards with that extra time it was better/worse than Elway running to 10 yards?
 
Elway would own all of the records today, not Marino.
I think you're really underestimating Marino here. During his prime his passing skills were unmatched. Atleast with Elway you had to worry about him running, with Marino you knew it was all on his arm. He's still got the best release I've ever seen.
1) SSOG: Favre will break the major records Marino has this season, he already holds the completion mark on fewer attempts than Marino, too.2) dparker: To your point, with a mere 89 career rush yards, Marino was a liability to the offense because he posed zero threat to leave the pocket. Part of being a QB is the ability to make things happen with your feet, Marino could not. Evaluation of the position can't simply be limited to passing numbers.

Favre should be on a par with Elway and well ahead of Marino in all time rankings.
Thats just not true. Marino's feet bought him time in the pocket which led to better passing stats. Are you going to say that because he would make a pass for 10 yards with that extra time it was better/worse than Elway running to 10 yards?
Sidestepping and a quick release were Marino's defense against the rush, but that doesn't make him a threat with his feet. He adapted to his gifts and faults, but it still left him one dimensional. The defense knowing any QB will not leave the pocket or scramble pass the LOS gives them an advantage. Marino eclipsed 30 TD passes 3 times in his first four seasons, then only did it once more in his final 13. The league learned how to defend him, so his stats and team success suffered.
 
Elway would own all of the records today, not Marino.
I think you're really underestimating Marino here. During his prime his passing skills were unmatched. Atleast with Elway you had to worry about him running, with Marino you knew it was all on his arm. He's still got the best release I've ever seen.
1) SSOG: Favre will break the major records Marino has this season, he already holds the completion mark on fewer attempts than Marino, too.2) dparker: To your point, with a mere 89 career rush yards, Marino was a liability to the offense because he posed zero threat to leave the pocket. Part of being a QB is the ability to make things happen with your feet, Marino could not. Evaluation of the position can't simply be limited to passing numbers.

Favre should be on a par with Elway and well ahead of Marino in all time rankings.
Thats just not true. Marino's feet bought him time in the pocket which led to better passing stats. Are you going to say that because he would make a pass for 10 yards with that extra time it was better/worse than Elway running to 10 yards?
Sidestepping and a quick release were Marino's defense against the rush, but that doesn't make him a threat with his feet. He adapted to his gifts and faults, but it still left him one dimensional. The defense knowing any QB will not leave the pocket or scramble pass the LOS gives them an advantage. Marino eclipsed 30 TD passes 3 times in his first four seasons, then only did it once more in his final 13. The league learned how to defend him, so his stats and team success suffered.
You really think Favre's 7.3 rushing ypg were a threat? What about Montana's 8.7 ypg? Elway only averaged 14.5 ypg. His legs allowed him to buy time, and if all else failed he ran. While that extra time was highly valuable, dont act like he was running roughshod over the league. He topped 300 yards in a season once. Make no mistake about it, people didn't fear Elway running, it was what he'd do while on the run.
 
During his first ten years in the league, Elway played two seasons with a pro bowl OL and none with a pro bowl WR. Dan Marino beat that in his rookie season alone, playing on a team with 3 pro bowl linemen and 1 pro bowl WR. Think about that- Marino had more pro bowl help on offense in his rookie year than Elway did in his first decade with the Broncos (yet Elway still made three SBs during that span).
Seems like you are lending an AWFUL amount of weight to the credibility of Pro Bowlers. Is this always your measuring stick for quality NFL players, or just in this one instance?
No, generally I go into much more in-depth statistics (I'm a huge fan of www.footballoutsiders.com), it's just that good data is hard to come by for the 1980s and early 1990s. In the absence of really good data, (such as All Pro lists, or even better, some type of advanced statistical analysis like the guys at FO do), I will revert to flawed statistics such as Pro Bowlers, because it's better than no data at all.Besides, while a single Pro Bowl doesn't mean much, you can usually say with certainty that multiple pro-bowl players were pretty darn good, and for the most part, if a player never made a single pro bowl, he usually wasn't anything but "pretty good".
:goodposting: In 1986, Broncos were 20th in rushing yards. In 1987, they were 12, and in 1989, they were 6th (bobby humphrey was Elways first 1K yard back).Measuring the OL: I don't know of a better way to judge who had the better supporting cast other than pro-bowl.
It's actually worse than moleculo portrays it as. These rankings include Elway's own contributions to the running game. If you take out Elway's rushing totals, Denver would have been the 27th ranked rushing team in 1986 (second to last in the league), and they would have been 22nd in 1987.
Sorry, but conference records really aren't that meaningful when there were no more than 5 teams any given year that could win the SB, and they were all in the NFC. If it wasn't the Skins year, it was the Giants or the 49ers or even the Bears. There wasn't parity so conference records mean just about squat.
Let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Let's say that the #1 team in the entire NFL resided in the NFC... and the #2-#17 teams all resided in the AFC (meaning the #18-#32 teams were all NFC teams). Lets say things remained this way for 13 straight years. The NFC would win 13 straight Superbowls, but would anyone in their right mind say that they were the better conference?The only way to measure the strength of the conferences against each other is their head-to-head records, which take into account not only how good the top teams are, but also how bad the bottom teams are. In terms of head-to-head performance, the AFC actually posted a winning record against the NFC in the 1980s. The top teams might have been in the NFC, but the AFC was way deeper.
"Hi, I'm one of those people who can't stop living in the past. Check out my list of all-time great quarterbacks that includes a handful of guys that, while good in their era, couldn't carry Manning or Brady's jock."
"Hi, I'm one of those people who believes that, if I didn't see him play, he must not have been any good, and honestly thinks we should simply discard all statistics that are more than 10 years old because... you know... I have the attention span of a goldfish. Ooh, look, pretty colors."
Thats just not true. Marino's feet bought him time in the pocket which led to better passing stats. Are you going to say that because he would make a pass for 10 yards with that extra time it was better/worse than Elway running to 10 yards?
Actually, Elway running for 10 yards would be better than Marino buying time and passing for 10 yards. Why? Both plays help the team exactly the same amount RIGHT AWAY, but running for 10 yards would have a bigger long-term impact on the game. On subsequent plays, teams wouldn't defend Marino any differently- they'd call the exact same passrushes and the exact same coverages, and they'd just emphasize to their DLs to wrap up better and not overpursue. On the other hand, after Elway ran for 10 yards, the defense would be forced to start bringing its LBs up closer to the line of scrimmage and telling the DEs to stay at home more instead of crashing the pocket. As a result, Elway would get some more time in the pocket than he was getting previously, and on future snaps he'd be more likely to complete a long pass, since the defense wasn't playing the deep ball, whereas Marino wouldn't be any more likely to complete anything.And then if Elway starts completing the deep ball, teams would be forced to start telling their DEs to get upfield, containment-be-damned, at which point Denver could start rolling Elway outside of the pocket in various bootlegs which would likely result in man coverage deep down the field (often a WR vs. a Safety). If the defense starts double-covering, then that leaves a single LB responsible for stopping the underneath pass to the TE (who is sitting in a hole in the zone about 10-12 yards down field) *AS WELL AS* responsible for preventing Elway from taking off with the ball. If the LB drops back to cover the TE, Elway gets 6 yards easy as pie, steps out of bounds, and lines up in the huddle again. If the LB comes up to keep Elway contained, Elway lofts a pass over his head and gets a 12 yard completion to the TE, easy as pie. If the team reacts by starting to bring a Safety down to cover the TE, Elway goes deep (he was the master of the 40-yard across-the-body bootleg throw). When the defense starts disciplining its DEs to keep containment again, Denver starts running all of that 1-cut stuff that drives defensive linemen crazy, and without backside pursuit (because the ends are all staying home), the backs start eating huge chunks of yards from the middle of the field. So the ends are forced to start pursuing again and Elway starts rolling out again. It's that type of double-threat, pick-your-poison scenario that Denver's famous bootleg offense was based around, and when it was working well, it was essentially unstoppable by any defensive scheme in the entire NFL. Meanwhile, Marino's pocket presence was nice, but teams could still just defend him straight up with vanilla defenses and achieve reasonable success. Marino might put up better numbers because he could pass for 10 yards instead of running for 10 yards, but his entire offense suffered as a result.
 
so - how fair is it to compare Elways passing stats when the best WR he had to work with in his prime was Vance Johnson - career high = 76 catches for 1095 yards?
The reverse could also be argued. How fair is it to blame any of those receivers for those three years when the best that the guy throwing to them could manage was 54.5% and only 5 more TDs than INTs. The quarterback has a lot more to do with the success of his receivers than the other way around. Saying he had crappy receivers just makes Elway look worse.
 
You really think Favre's 7.3 rushing ypg were a threat? What about Montana's 8.7 ypg? Elway only averaged 14.5 ypg. His legs allowed him to buy time, and if all else failed he ran. While that extra time was highly valuable, dont act like he was running roughshod over the league. He topped 300 yards in a season once. Make no mistake about it, people didn't fear Elway running, it was what he'd do while on the run.
Read SSOG's above post. He summed it up nicely.
 

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