Allowing HS Athletes to Play Outside School for Sanctioned Sports (1 Viewer)

[Chadstroma]

With my daughter playing volleyball (first game yesterday) I am not sure how you could play both club and school volleyball at the same time. She practices 3 hours a day Mon-Sat except game days. Club games are weekends but when would they practice? I suppose they could go straight from school practice to club practice but dang that would be a lot of practice in one day.

I think we've discussed this before, but doing this* is a CIF violation in California and would result in the player being suspended and the program likely forfeiting any games that they were rostered for.

*"doing this" means participating in the same sport during the high school season. This can include just about anything from organized practices, scrimmages, games, leagues, etc. Playing "pick-up" games is allowed, such as if you are down at the park playing basketball during basketball season, but participating in a club team practice or playing in a game as part of a league or AAU tournament is not allowed.


(Wrote this and didn't submit, now see you basically posted the same thing regarding the IHSA rules)

From what I gather that is the case for most if not all states. The big argument was exposure for recruitment as the tournaments attract the college coaches more than HS games. The belief is that for sports like soccer and volleyball- school athletes may lose out on recruiting and then if you have to choose between playing club and school- more will choose club for the recruiting benefits. The Illinois lawmakers proposed a law change which led to some involvement with IHSA for them to make rule changes. Not sure how far that will go.

It seems from most of what I read on recruiting (albeit not for volleyball or soccer) is that off season tournaments are where recruiting happens most because most coaches are coaching during season and don't have the time to do scouting on recruits at that time. So saying that HS players are missing out on recruiting opps because they aren't playing club seems incorrect. They can still play club out of HS season which is where most recruiting happens (from what I read).

That makes sense but also for volleyball why the little time that coaches have to recruit they spend at a club tournament (numerous teams and games) versus a HS match which is just the two teams. My daughter will start club right when school season ends. It is her freshman year so recruiting is just now a thing to start thinking about.

I don't know much about soccer but the star athlete in my daughters class that went to her school is not playing any school sports and just focusing on club soccer. She could easily play and star in flag football, volleyball, basketball and more but will not even play school soccer. I don't know all the ends and outs of that decision but I do know the big two sports brought up about this and pushed about the recruiting angle was volleyball and soccer. In some discussions here (other threads) I have the impression that soccer has left HS sports behind. I think volleyball HS is still strong but I wonder if this rule change would actually help HS sports over hurting them.

 

[Chadstroma]

My biggest gripe with club sports is that it has essentially eliminated kids' opportunities based on socioeconomic status. Poorer families cannot afford to pay for club sports.

Easily the biggest problem sport, IMO, is volleyball. In my kids' school, if you don't play club volleyball from like 6th grade on, you have almost no shot at making your HS volleyball team. For reference, my son's graduating class last year had 502 students and our district is firmly middle class and above. Some of the rural schools it doesn't matter due to the lack of sheer numbers but at the bigger schools, without the year round skills development and the strategic baseline of understanding, you won't even make the 7th or 8th grade team much less JV or Varsity.

It is also compounded by absurd off-season and pre-season training schedules. My daughter has had like 10am, 2pm and 4pm practice drop-off or pickup times this past Summer. How does a family with 2 working parents (or a single working parent) make that happen for a 9th or 10th grader that doesn't drive? Or a 11th/12th grader that doesn't own their own car?

Again, another socioeconomic barrier to participation. I wish some parent would sue the school district and get these insane Summer and pre-season practice times and workouts changed. There was even a team camp that required us to cough up $250 dollars for our daughter to participate. If you can't afford it are you just SOL come "tryouts"?

This is supposed to be public school, taxpayer funded extra-curricular activities. I can afford it, but I get pissed off for the families that can't. Well, I actually get pissed off that I have to take long lunch breaks or take off work early to get my daughter to the bare minimum of activities so she can still make the team, but you know what I mean.

It sucks for me and I'm not even poor. Can't imagine a single mom or a poor family who just has to throw their hands up and tell their kid "sorry, we can't afford for you to play volleyball". I don't know anyone who that happened to, but I'd imagine the number is greater than zero over the last few years at my kids' school. HS sports used to be a place you could try and learn about a sport and get the training needed to see if you were good at it. Now it is a proving ground for college sports and the real "tryout" phase is essentially eliminated.

Girls volleyball is super competitive. It is basically girls version of boys basketball where to get past freshman basketball it is rare if you haven't been playing competitive basketball since you were in 3rd grade.

In our parts, you have to be a rare athlete to have any shot of making a public school team freshman team if you haven't been playing club volleyball for the last 5 years. My daughter has played club and school volleyball since 4th grade and this summer beach volleyball. She made the local public school HS volleyball team A team. One of her Jr High classmates who played just school volleyball from 4th on did not make the cut. She told me and how upset she was and my immediate reaction was "How much was she really into volleyball? She didn't play club." Now that was not a economical decision as her father is a Doctor and they are well off but it was pretty self evident that if you were not playing that much volleyball then the chances are you are not going to be playing HS volleyball.

My experience over the last four years with my wife fighting cancer has made me live that life in certain ways. First, for long stretches it has taken her out as part of the picture in terms of the kids transportation and the like so it was all on me for the three kids who are all very active. Now, the one big difference for me is that my schedule is pretty flexible being a mortgage broker so I am not tied to having to be at a desk at a certain time period for the most part. But even so, I definitely had to ask for help to pick up/drop off here and there when the kids times conflicted. I have wondered how single parents make having multiple kids work and even more so if you have a 9-5. Heck, I have wondered how you make it work if both parents have a 9-5. I know a lot of families in our sphere of school sports do lean on each other and many have grandparents or other family that chip in heavily.

Money wise, again, after 4 years of cancer fighting... our finances are not pretty. Over the summers, specially since we haven't been taking vacations, the focus was to keep the kids active and busy in camps. So most of the summer they do various sports camps. In the past years, I just continued to make it work (debt basically) as my highest priority after my wife was to keep my kids lives as normal as possible. This summer, I reached out to the camps and explained the situation and asked for assistance. All the schools that I reached out to basically said "yes, don't worry about the fee, we want them here. You are signed up as of now." that included the JV summer league and several camps for basketball and the flag football and volleyball camps for the public school my daughter is attending. It was upwards of $500 that it saved me (for her). My guess is that they would be similarly flexible for kids in other financial issues situations. Here at least, my understanding, is that for the camps and stuff the fees go directly to the coaches for their time they are putting in on the camps.

 

[Navin Johnson]

My biggest gripe with club sports is that it has essentially eliminated kids' opportunities based on socioeconomic status. Poorer families cannot afford to pay for club sports.

Easily the biggest problem sport, IMO, is volleyball. In my kids' school, if you don't play club volleyball from like 6th grade on, you have almost no shot at making your HS volleyball team. For reference, my son's graduating class last year had 502 students and our district is firmly middle class and above. Some of the rural schools it doesn't matter due to the lack of sheer numbers but at the bigger schools, without the year round skills development and the strategic baseline of understanding, you won't even make the 7th or 8th grade team much less JV or Varsity.

It is also compounded by absurd off-season and pre-season training schedules. My daughter has had like 10am, 2pm and 4pm practice drop-off or pickup times this past Summer. How does a family with 2 working parents (or a single working parent) make that happen for a 9th or 10th grader that doesn't drive? Or a 11th/12th grader that doesn't own their own car?

Again, another socioeconomic barrier to participation. I wish some parent would sue the school district and get these insane Summer and pre-season practice times and workouts changed. There was even a team camp that required us to cough up $250 dollars for our daughter to participate. If you can't afford it are you just SOL come "tryouts"?

This is supposed to be public school, taxpayer funded extra-curricular activities. I can afford it, but I get pissed off for the families that can't. Well, I actually get pissed off that I have to take long lunch breaks or take off work early to get my daughter to the bare minimum of activities so she can still make the team, but you know what I mean.

It sucks for me and I'm not even poor. Can't imagine a single mom or a poor family who just has to throw their hands up and tell their kid "sorry, we can't afford for you to play volleyball". I don't know anyone who that happened to, but I'd imagine the number is greater than zero over the last few years at my kids' school. HS sports used to be a place you could try and learn about a sport and get the training needed to see if you were good at it. Now it is a proving ground for college sports and the real "tryout" phase is essentially eliminated.

I left CA in 2008 and even back then, HS were becoming pay for play to some degree. I don't think HS was ever the place to try out a sport to see if you liked it. At that point the weeding out process was almost complete.

We started our own "club" for off season competition. OUr better players were free to play with morecompetitive, established clubs

 

[mdstarnes]

With my daughter playing volleyball (first game yesterday) I am not sure how you could play both club and school volleyball at the same time. She practices 3 hours a day Mon-Sat except game days. Club games are weekends but when would they practice? I suppose they could go straight from school practice to club practice but dang that would be a lot of practice in one day.

I think we've discussed this before, but doing this* is a CIF violation in California and would result in the player being suspended and the program likely forfeiting any games that they were rostered for.

*"doing this" means participating in the same sport during the high school season. This can include just about anything from organized practices, scrimmages, games, leagues, etc. Playing "pick-up" games is allowed, such as if you are down at the park playing basketball during basketball season, but participating in a club team practice or playing in a game as part of a league or AAU tournament is not allowed.


(Wrote this and didn't submit, now see you basically posted the same thing regarding the IHSA rules)

From what I gather that is the case for most if not all states. The big argument was exposure for recruitment as the tournaments attract the college coaches more than HS games. The belief is that for sports like soccer and volleyball- school athletes may lose out on recruiting and then if you have to choose between playing club and school- more will choose club for the recruiting benefits. The Illinois lawmakers proposed a law change which led to some involvement with IHSA for them to make rule changes. Not sure how far that will go.

It seems from most of what I read on recruiting (albeit not for volleyball or soccer) is that off season tournaments are where recruiting happens most because most coaches are coaching during season and don't have the time to do scouting on recruits at that time. So saying that HS players are missing out on recruiting opps because they aren't playing club seems incorrect. They can still play club out of HS season which is where most recruiting happens (from what I read).

I can really only speak on behalf of girl's soccer, but this whole thing started in Illinois with a girls soccer player who plays for the same club as my daughter. Collegiate women's soccer is played in the fall, and high school girls soccer is played in the Spring. There are several big, important recruiting showcases that take place in the late winter/early spring time because college coaches are done with their actual season. Those events (ECNL and Girls Academy) sometimes overlapped with the start of the high school season. So, a girl would have to make a decision...attend the recruiting events and lose high school eligibility, or skip the events and play high school.

To me, it's a no brainier to let the kids play the random one-off showcase events and still play high school soccer. That's an example of the IHSA missing the forest for the trees. High school soccer around here is dying because the club kids are opting out of high school seasons. It's a slippery slope because that lowers the level of play, so more club kids don't play, which lowers it even more, etc. That being said, trying to work practices and other club games around a full high school schedule seems like a recipe for disaster for the kid, though. Players need recovery time, etc.

 

[Gally]

To me, it's a no brainier to let the kids play the random one-off showcase events and still play high school soccer. That's an example of the IHSA missing the forest for the trees.

But that is not what would happen. If you open the crack the flood gates will go and kids will now be playing both all season long. Common sense says that a single showcase weekend shouldn't prohibit eligibility but by allowing that it will go further and further and further. Seems like a simple solution but it adds complexity that people will abuse and it would be near impossible to govern allowing only one showcase appearance. It likely has to be all or nothing in order to monitor it.

High school soccer around here is dying because the club kids are opting out of high school seasons. It's a slippery slope because that lowers the level of play, so more club kids don't play, which lowers it even more, etc.

Welcome to travel baseball. Local rec leagues have died in many places for this exact reason. In addition "travel ball" has become so diluted because everybody starts a travel team. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I am not sure if there is solution to the direction this tidal wave is going. I think it may be too late which is really sad. But that is a discussion for a different thread.

 

[acarey50]

With my daughter playing volleyball (first game yesterday) I am not sure how you could play both club and school volleyball at the same time. She practices 3 hours a day Mon-Sat except game days. Club games are weekends but when would they practice? I suppose they could go straight from school practice to club practice but dang that would be a lot of practice in one day.

I think we've discussed this before, but doing this* is a CIF violation in California and would result in the player being suspended and the program likely forfeiting any games that they were rostered for.

*"doing this" means participating in the same sport during the high school season. This can include just about anything from organized practices, scrimmages, games, leagues, etc. Playing "pick-up" games is allowed, such as if you are down at the park playing basketball during basketball season, but participating in a club team practice or playing in a game as part of a league or AAU tournament is not allowed.


(Wrote this and didn't submit, now see you basically posted the same thing regarding the IHSA rules)

From what I gather that is the case for most if not all states. The big argument was exposure for recruitment as the tournaments attract the college coaches more than HS games. The belief is that for sports like soccer and volleyball- school athletes may lose out on recruiting and then if you have to choose between playing club and school- more will choose club for the recruiting benefits. The Illinois lawmakers proposed a law change which led to some involvement with IHSA for them to make rule changes. Not sure how far that will go.

It seems from most of what I read on recruiting (albeit not for volleyball or soccer) is that off season tournaments are where recruiting happens most because most coaches are coaching during season and don't have the time to do scouting on recruits at that time. So saying that HS players are missing out on recruiting opps because they aren't playing club seems incorrect. They can still play club out of HS season which is where most recruiting happens (from what I read).

I can really only speak on behalf of girl's soccer, but this whole thing started in Illinois with a girls soccer player who plays for the same club as my daughter. Collegiate women's soccer is played in the fall, and high school girls soccer is played in the Spring. There are several big, important recruiting showcases that take place in the late winter/early spring time because college coaches are done with their actual season. Those events (ECNL and Girls Academy) sometimes overlapped with the start of the high school season. So, a girl would have to make a decision...attend the recruiting events and lose high school eligibility, or skip the events and play high school.

To me, it's a no brainier to let the kids play the random one-off showcase events and still play high school soccer. That's an example of the IHSA missing the forest for the trees. High school soccer around here is dying because the club kids are opting out of high school seasons. It's a slippery slope because that lowers the level of play, so more club kids don't play, which lowers it even more, etc. That being said, trying to work practices and other club games around a full high school schedule seems like a recipe for disaster for the kid, though. Players need recovery time, etc.

In California (soccer is a winter sport), kids can go play in the ECNL/EA/pick your acronym showcases, but they can not participate in competition with their high school team until they are completely done with club. It's usually about a 2-3 week overlap where we have a few kids sitting out the high school games early on in the season and coming back usually in the first week of December.

The more competitive high school teams that have several high level club players will backload their schedules to account for this.