Sabertooth
Footballguy
Trent was a sure thing as well.
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Amari Cooper v Kevin White - Dynasty (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Soulfly3
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Footballguy
Serious question. Are you expecting Kevin White to have his way with Richard Sherman?I watched his tape. Sherman would destroy this guy. Even Patrick Peterson would give him a run for his money.I remember when I had never seen Cooper play, too!
cstu
Footballguy
Don't like the Crabtree comp due to his lack of speed, but Cooper reminds me of Blackmon.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
See, I wasn't really that impressed with Parker when I saw him on film (which is the best part about film study: 2 people can have different opinions and see the same thing). I liked his route running, awareness, and after the catch play, but he was horrible at using his body. High-pointing the ball, being aggressive ("my-ball" mentality), etc. were lacking when I watched him. In other words, he played small, negating the fact that he's huge. When I saw his statistics, I assumed I was going to be watching a guy who could take over games and win in the red-zone. What I saw was a 6'3" receiver who played like he was 6 foot flat.Don't want to answer this yet...
Ive said multiple times I need to watch more of Parker before I put him in this category... He didnt play a ton last season, and I remember him being good 2 yrs back.. But I need to watch more tape before I give him more love.
But, I will say, the more I watch, the more impressed I am
Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
Didn't know he would have to play the two top rated CBs for 16 games a season....I watched his tape. Sherman would destroy this guy. Even Patrick Peterson would give him a run for his money.I remember when I had never seen Cooper play, too!
And really, the Crabtree correlation is a real stretch of the imagination.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
tape = youtubeDidn't know he would have to play the two top rated CBs for 16 games a season....I watched his tape. Sherman would destroy this guy. Even Patrick Peterson would give him a run for his money.I remember when I had never seen Cooper play, too!
And really, the Crabtree correlation is a real stretch of the imagination.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Are you sure you were watching Parker? High-pointing the ball and jumping out of the building is kind of his thing.See, I wasn't really that impressed with Parker when I saw him on film (which is the best part about film study: 2 people can have different opinions and see the same thing). I liked his route running, awareness, and after the catch play, but he was horrible at using his body. High-pointing the ball, being aggressive ("my-ball" mentality), etc. were lacking when I watched him. In other words, he played small, negating the fact that he's huge. When I saw his statistics, I assumed I was going to be watching a guy who could take over games and win in the red-zone. What I saw was a 6'3" receiver who played like he was 6 foot flat.Don't want to answer this yet...
Ive said multiple times I need to watch more of Parker before I put him in this category... He didnt play a ton last season, and I remember him being good 2 yrs back.. But I need to watch more tape before I give him more love.
But, I will say, the more I watch, the more impressed I am
massraider
Footballguy
Potential vs. production is such a common fallacy, because it implies they are exclusive.
Cooper has potential as well as production, it's like being a great route runner already somehow limits his ceiling. He's not Crabtree, his game has so much more speed than Crabs.
Cooper has potential as well as production, it's like being a great route runner already somehow limits his ceiling. He's not Crabtree, his game has so much more speed than Crabs.
I watched all of his videos that were on Draft Breakdown and it looks like he only jumps out of the building in shorts. Numerous times he just lets the ball come down to him in a 50/50 situation. I'm not saying he never does it, but not often enough where it looks instinctive. Many of his touchdowns were just long catch and run plays or busted coverage. Rarely does he win in the red zone with his size.Are you sure you were watching Parker? High-pointing the ball and jumping out of the building is kind of his thing.See, I wasn't really that impressed with Parker when I saw him on film (which is the best part about film study: 2 people can have different opinions and see the same thing). I liked his route running, awareness, and after the catch play, but he was horrible at using his body. High-pointing the ball, being aggressive ("my-ball" mentality), etc. were lacking when I watched him. In other words, he played small, negating the fact that he's huge. When I saw his statistics, I assumed I was going to be watching a guy who could take over games and win in the red-zone. What I saw was a 6'3" receiver who played like he was 6 foot flat.Don't want to answer this yet...
Ive said multiple times I need to watch more of Parker before I put him in this category... He didnt play a ton last season, and I remember him being good 2 yrs back.. But I need to watch more tape before I give him more love.
But, I will say, the more I watch, the more impressed I am
And this isn't to say that he can't still be good, he just wasn't what I expected to see. Like I said, the route running, awareness, and after the catch-ability are all excellent, and you can make a great career out of those things (the player I compare him to is Boldin). But to be next level he is going to have to do those "big receiver things". Takes him out of the conversation at the top imo is all.
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jurb26
Footballguy
Yup. I don't like the corrolation at all.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Cooper seems to have a clearly higher floor, and arguably as high a ceiling (if he has some similar traits to the likes of Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Isaac Bruce, but bigger and maybe faster than them, with as good a work ethic). Which is why I'd take him if I was OAK, and probably will in fantasy. Not to mention, he has a longer track record, against superior level of competition. Seems like a no brainer, but than there are independent scouts like Jeremiah, who I respect, stating White is his #2 prospect overall in the draft. Mayock grades him higher, too.
All these draftniks are human just like the rest of us. They wouldn't be the first to be in awe of a big guy's combine performance and forget the last 3 years of college football.
Xue
Footballguy
If you only watched Davante Adams in his Rookie year and didn't watch him in college, you'd probably think he played "short" as well. It's called recency bias.How often does Josh Gordon win jumpballs? Does he play "tall"?See, I wasn't really that impressed with Parker when I saw him on film (which is the best part about film study: 2 people can have different opinions and see the same thing). I liked his route running, awareness, and after the catch play, but he was horrible at using his body. High-pointing the ball, being aggressive ("my-ball" mentality), etc. were lacking when I watched him. In other words, he played small, negating the fact that he's huge. When I saw his statistics, I assumed I was going to be watching a guy who could take over games and win in the red-zone. What I saw was a 6'3" receiver who played like he was 6 foot flat.Don't want to answer this yet...
Ive said multiple times I need to watch more of Parker before I put him in this category... He didnt play a ton last season, and I remember him being good 2 yrs back.. But I need to watch more tape before I give him more love.
But, I will say, the more I watch, the more impressed I am
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massraider
Footballguy
He had several this year, as a junior. Great season.
Imagine if as a freshman, if he had gone 5 for 109 and a TD in the SEC championship, then gone 8 for 128 with two TDs in the national title game. Because that's what Cooper did.
Cooper had more TDs as a freshman that White did as a senior (on about half the catches). He's a year younger, but White has the higher upside? Really doesn't make sense.
Xue
Footballguy
jurb26
Footballguy
It's funny that for years many said Cooper had to stay healthy and put it altogether. The potential to be a stud was apparent from day one but certain elements derailed it from truly showing up. He doesn't just that last, puts nearly evey question to rest and yet people still detract. Odd.
Don't we have to evaluate these players based on what they can and can't do? Josh Gordon wins jumpballs given the opportunity. The fact that he is often running by guys is completely exclusive to the skill that it takes to win jump balls. DaVante Adams played tall in college, and that was well documented as a prospect. Again, lack of opportunity to document that as a pro is exclusive to the skill he possesses.If you only watched Davante Adams in his Rookie year and didn't watch him in college, you'd probably think he played "short" as well. It's called recency bias.How often does Josh Gordon win jumpballs? Does he play "tall"?See, I wasn't really that impressed with Parker when I saw him on film (which is the best part about film study: 2 people can have different opinions and see the same thing). I liked his route running, awareness, and after the catch play, but he was horrible at using his body. High-pointing the ball, being aggressive ("my-ball" mentality), etc. were lacking when I watched him. In other words, he played small, negating the fact that he's huge. When I saw his statistics, I assumed I was going to be watching a guy who could take over games and win in the red-zone. What I saw was a 6'3" receiver who played like he was 6 foot flat.Don't want to answer this yet...
Ive said multiple times I need to watch more of Parker before I put him in this category... He didnt play a ton last season, and I remember him being good 2 yrs back.. But I need to watch more tape before I give him more love.
But, I will say, the more I watch, the more impressed I am
What I'm saying is that Parker does NOT win jump balls given the opportunity, at least not at a high enough rate. Now perhaps you see the film and disagree with that statement, that's fine and your prerogative. One of the biggest problems with film evaluation is that it is very inconsistent. Even just looking at how different "experts" view the same player paints entirely different pictures at times. So to me, you're talking about apples and oranges when you bring up Adams and Gordon with respect to Parker. Again, we don't have to agree.
Also, I never said Parker won't be good or can't have a great career, as I articulated in a later post. I just think Parker is closer to Strong/Perriman than Cooper in terms of rankings.
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massraider
Footballguy
Gandalf
Footballguy
Just watched a bunch of clips on Cooper. He looks amazing too. Catches with his hands, high points the ball, great routes, seemed very open against very big competition who clearly were trying to not let that happen and is quick. I like both. If I had to draft today without knowing either player's landing spot, I would go Cooper but I do like both. Another question I have is whether Cooper or White are better than Melvin Gordon? Probably also depends on landing spot but I'm starting to think yes. Cooper/White might be my 1.2 and 1.3 in a rookie draft.
Nero
Footballguy
Jimmy Smith is the best Cooper comp I can think of.I remember when I had never seen Cooper play, too!
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
That would be an auspicious comp in some ways. Similar size, high second round pick, 5 X Pro Bowler.Jimmy Smith is the best Cooper comp I can think of.I remember when I had never seen Cooper play, too!
Not sure what Smith's 40 time was, lower level of competition and development at a comparable stage, coming from Jackson St., and maybe partly for that reason, took three years to really get untracked. Cooper seems to be universally acknowledged as the most polished route runner and pro-ready WR prospect in the draft (similar to what some scouts were saying about OBJ this time last year).
Xue
Footballguy
Gordon actually isn't very good at jumpballs. I recently re-watched a lot of his 2013 season and he loses more jumpballs than what's perceived. AJ Green loses quite a few jumpballs as well.Don't we have to evaluate these players based on what they can and can't do? Josh Gordon wins jumpballs given the opportunity. The fact that he is often running by guys is completely exclusive to the skill that it takes to win jump balls. DaVante Adams played tall in college, and that was well documented as a prospect. Again, lack of opportunity to document that as a pro is exclusive to the skill he possesses.If you only watched Davante Adams in his Rookie year and didn't watch him in college, you'd probably think he played "short" as well. It's called recency bias.How often does Josh Gordon win jumpballs? Does he play "tall"?See, I wasn't really that impressed with Parker when I saw him on film (which is the best part about film study: 2 people can have different opinions and see the same thing). I liked his route running, awareness, and after the catch play, but he was horrible at using his body. High-pointing the ball, being aggressive ("my-ball" mentality), etc. were lacking when I watched him. In other words, he played small, negating the fact that he's huge. When I saw his statistics, I assumed I was going to be watching a guy who could take over games and win in the red-zone. What I saw was a 6'3" receiver who played like he was 6 foot flat.Don't want to answer this yet...
Ive said multiple times I need to watch more of Parker before I put him in this category... He didnt play a ton last season, and I remember him being good 2 yrs back.. But I need to watch more tape before I give him more love.
But, I will say, the more I watch, the more impressed I am
What I'm saying is that Parker does NOT win jump balls given the opportunity, at least not at a high enough rate. Now perhaps you see the film and disagree with that statement, that's fine and your prerogative. One of the biggest problems with film evaluation is that it is very inconsistent. Even just looking at how different "experts" view the same player paints entirely different pictures at times. So to me, you're talking about apples and oranges when you bring up Adams and Gordon with respect to Parker. Again, we don't have to agree.
Also, I never said Parker won't be good or can't have a great career, as I articulated in a later post. I just think Parker is closer to Strong/Perriman than Cooper in terms of rankings.
Film evaluation is inconsistent because the evaluator might not have seen everything or enough on a prospect. They also don't give context to what they're watching, like Parker coming off a foot injury as to a reason why he didn't attempt to jump for some balls in his first few games back.
Why does the fact that Parker supposedly doesn't win jump balls puts him farther away from Cooper? Is that your reasoning?
Xue
Footballguy
Here is his sister wishing him happy 21st birthday in 2013: https://twitter.com/white10_k/status/349525006398652418
That puts his birth year in 1992.
I suppose I should clarify. I think that Cooper is one of, if not the, best prospects in years at the receiver position. My feelings on Parker with respect to Cooper and the rest of the WR group are off of cumulative data, not just the one item. Right now I'm having a hard time delineating receivers 2-6, but Amari is a clear first. I would say Parker shows more actively elite skills than a DGB and honestly perhaps even a White. I feel the same about Perriman, and need to watch more Strong. This is getting a little disjointed so I'll stop here, but I hope that clears things up a little.Gordon actually isn't very good at jumpballs. I recently re-watched a lot of his 2013 season and he loses more jumpballs than what's perceived. AJ Green loses quite a few jumpballs as well.Don't we have to evaluate these players based on what they can and can't do? Josh Gordon wins jumpballs given the opportunity. The fact that he is often running by guys is completely exclusive to the skill that it takes to win jump balls. DaVante Adams played tall in college, and that was well documented as a prospect. Again, lack of opportunity to document that as a pro is exclusive to the skill he possesses.If you only watched Davante Adams in his Rookie year and didn't watch him in college, you'd probably think he played "short" as well. It's called recency bias.How often does Josh Gordon win jumpballs? Does he play "tall"?See, I wasn't really that impressed with Parker when I saw him on film (which is the best part about film study: 2 people can have different opinions and see the same thing). I liked his route running, awareness, and after the catch play, but he was horrible at using his body. High-pointing the ball, being aggressive ("my-ball" mentality), etc. were lacking when I watched him. In other words, he played small, negating the fact that he's huge. When I saw his statistics, I assumed I was going to be watching a guy who could take over games and win in the red-zone. What I saw was a 6'3" receiver who played like he was 6 foot flat.Don't want to answer this yet...
Ive said multiple times I need to watch more of Parker before I put him in this category... He didnt play a ton last season, and I remember him being good 2 yrs back.. But I need to watch more tape before I give him more love.
But, I will say, the more I watch, the more impressed I am
What I'm saying is that Parker does NOT win jump balls given the opportunity, at least not at a high enough rate. Now perhaps you see the film and disagree with that statement, that's fine and your prerogative. One of the biggest problems with film evaluation is that it is very inconsistent. Even just looking at how different "experts" view the same player paints entirely different pictures at times. So to me, you're talking about apples and oranges when you bring up Adams and Gordon with respect to Parker. Again, we don't have to agree.
Also, I never said Parker won't be good or can't have a great career, as I articulated in a later post. I just think Parker is closer to Strong/Perriman than Cooper in terms of rankings.
Film evaluation is inconsistent because the evaluator might not have seen everything or enough on a prospect. They also don't give context to what they're watching, like Parker coming off a foot injury as to a reason why he didn't attempt to jump for some balls in his first few games back.
Why does the fact that Parker supposedly doesn't win jump balls puts him farther away from Cooper? Is that your reasoning?
DocHolliday
Footballguy
If I am a NFL GM, I take Cooper. He not only seems like the safe pick but also a great talent. He may not be "big" and dominant with his size but he is quick and runs great routes. He is not small by any means. We would not be having this discussion if he was 5'9" and 180 pounds.
Running great routes is hugely important in the NFL. The windows are small and not open for long for QBs. The WR has to be there.
White should be a great WR due to his size and athletic ability. He is exposive. He has great football speed. He does need to work on his routes like most college WRs do when they transition to the NFL.
The 2 WRs are different in how they play the game but are both going to be WR1s immediately.
Running great routes is hugely important in the NFL. The windows are small and not open for long for QBs. The WR has to be there.
White should be a great WR due to his size and athletic ability. He is exposive. He has great football speed. He does need to work on his routes like most college WRs do when they transition to the NFL.
The 2 WRs are different in how they play the game but are both going to be WR1s immediately.
They lost me when predicting Cooper to have 600 yards receiving as a rookie and White just 400. So dumb.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
We got absolutely spoiled last year....
Predicting these numbers prior to last year's rookies would have been a no brainer. But now, seems like rookies can blow up
I'd be curious to see historical yardage numbers for WR's drafted in the top 10, where Cooper/White appear likely to go. Even prior to last year, I'd be shocked if 400 or 600 yards weren't on the lowest side of the outcomes.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
depends on land spot and opportunity. Like Soulfly said last year had some outstanding rookie WR performances. When traditionally rookie WR cant be counted on for much
Regardless of landing spot, it'll be mind blowing if these two guys only average 40 yards receiving per game (640 yards).
Since 2000 (including this past season), there have been 23 WR drafted in the top 10 of the NFL Draft. Of those 23, only 9 (39%) have exceeded the 640 yard mark. If I shorten the time frame to just the last 5 seasons, that number jumps to 83% (5 out of 6). So it is possible that NFL teams are getting better at drafting receivers and tend to use these receivers more as rookies. It is also possible that over a short period of time, the receiving prospects have just been that good.I will be interesting to see if this is a growing trend.
Chaka
Footballguy
I am guessing that rules changes have made the NFL more passer friendly over the past 15 years also rookies have more opportunity to practice with teams with so many OTAs prior to the start of training camp than they did back in 2000.
The rule that still needs to be eliminated is the one that prevents rookies from beginning practicing with teams until after their college class graduates. That one is just silly.
Chaka
Footballguy
Despite White's size (height) advantage Cooper has bigger hands (10" vs 9 1/4"). Cooper also had the best combine results for WRs in the 20 yard shuttle and the 3-cone drill, both of which I consider more important than the 40 (where Cooper was only 8 hundredths of a second slower than White). White is definitely a better leaper but I am not sure something like that comes into play often enough to be overly concerned about it.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I own the 4 pick in both my dynasty league (a superflex and a 2QB). No way one of these cats slips past me, even in the 2QB league. Right now they are so close I don't care. This seems almost like the Green/Jones debate from a few year back.
I think draft position is going to dictate it for me. If the both go top 5 like Jones and Green did, the value of the 3 and 4 picks is going to skyrocket. Get those picks now, they are going to increase in value exponentially in the next 60 days. I am currently offering Kelvin Benjamin for Marquise Lee and the 1.05 and he's interested. They way drafts always unfold so unpredictably, I am hoping to get White or Cooper with that pick. Lee is just gravy.
I think draft position is going to dictate it for me. If the both go top 5 like Jones and Green did, the value of the 3 and 4 picks is going to skyrocket. Get those picks now, they are going to increase in value exponentially in the next 60 days. I am currently offering Kelvin Benjamin for Marquise Lee and the 1.05 and he's interested. They way drafts always unfold so unpredictably, I am hoping to get White or Cooper with that pick. Lee is just gravy.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
What makes you think the 1.4 will guarantee you one of Cooper or White? I can see both going in the top 3 and Gordon dropping to 1.4.
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FUBAR
Footballguy
Blackmon minus the off field issues and with allegedly one of the best work ethics is a receiver I'm happy to take #1
2QB league? Yeah, it's entirely possible the WRs and Gurley go first but usually someone grabs a QB early. Especially if a QB goes #1 in the real thing.
Have to admit, I'm slightly tempted to trade back from 1.01 and walk away with any of these 3 as they seem roughly equal.
jurb26
Footballguy
Agreed. I fully expect Gurley, White and Cooper to go 1 - 3.
That_Guy_Will
Footballguy
I think Amari Cooper is the best WR in the 2015 draft, but if he goes to the Rams, it will push him down.the list of impactful rookie WRs. Nick Foles isnt a big post route guy and thats where Cooper flourishes. On the other hand Foles likes to throw to the corner and Cooper has struggled turning and getting his shoulders in front of defenders in that route. couple that with Coopers propensity to adjust mid route leaving his QB vulnerable in pressure and Nick Foles high INT rate and you could have a some problems. especially in the beginning of the season.
id say Kevin White as Derek Carrs #1 WR being a pretty solid choice. OR Devante Parker in New Orleans. hell id even look at Dorial Green-Beckham if he was catching bombs from Joe Flacco.
id say Kevin White as Derek Carrs #1 WR being a pretty solid choice. OR Devante Parker in New Orleans. hell id even look at Dorial Green-Beckham if he was catching bombs from Joe Flacco.
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