America is the best country on Earth, and there is no second. (1 Viewer)

[FairWarning]

Watching news from around the world, we really are blessed.

 

[timschochet]

Here’s a good historical perspective of slavery.  It’s been around for thousands of years, still exists today and prospered in many civilizations, countries etc.  please stop promoting this false fallacy that slavery only really worked in American south as it’s completely a false narrative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

 

[FairWarning]

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

It was?

I know, let’s give the land back to the dinosaurs.  Problem solved.  Let’s pay reparations to the alligators and lizards .

 

[BladeRunner]

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

Yeah, okay Tim.  What a bunch of balony. 

"Slavery was pretty nice in those other spots, but in the US it was awful." 

I'm not sure if this post or the one where you posted "if I was a black man..." in another thread is worse.  Holy cow.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

This is wholeheartedly wrong and misinformed.   Just is, end of statement.  Breathtakingly so. 

 

[The Big Donkey]

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

In Senegambia, between 1300 and 1900, close to one-third of the population was enslaved. In early Islamic states of the Western Sudan, including Ghana (750–1076), Mali (1235–1645), Segou (1712–1861), and Songhai (1275–1591), about a third of the population was enslaved. The earliest Akanstate of Bonoman which had third of its population being enslaved in the 17th century. In Sierra Leone in the 19th century about half of the population consisted of slaves. In the 19th century at least half the population was enslaved among the Duala of the Cameroon, the Igbo and other peoples of the lower Niger, the Kongo, and the Kasanje kingdom and Chokwe of Angola. Among the Ashanti and Yoruba a third of the population consisted of slaves as well as Bono.The population of the Kanem was about a third slave. It was perhaps 40% in Bornu.  Between 1750 and 1900 from one- to two-thirds of the entire population of the Fulani jihad states consisted of slaves. The population of the Sokoto caliphate formed by Hausas in northern Nigeria and Cameroon was half-slave in the 19th century. It is estimated that up to 90% of the population of Arab-Swahili Zanzibar was enslaved. Roughly half the population of Madagascar was enslaved. link    

it's hard to take you seriously with statements like that.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

As one example look up galley slaves.

 

[BladeRunner]

...it's hard to take you seriously with statements like that.

White Liberal GuiltTM is a helluva drug. 

 

[stlrams]

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

Completely false again.  So you saying the slaves in the Roman Empire were treated better than American slaves?  Did you ever see the movie gladiator?   I can come up with countless other examples.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Completely false again.  So you saying the slaves in the Roman Empire were treated better than American slaves?  Did you ever see the movie gladiator?   I can come up with countless other examples.  

Sorry, but I had to  at this part.   

 

[quick-hands]

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

How about the males and females  of today being held as sex slaves?   Do they have it better?

 

[BladeRunner]

How about the males and females  of today being held as sex slaves?   Do they have it better?

Yes.  As you know, American slavery was uniquely evil.  Those sex slaves have it pretty good nowadays so they should stop complaining.

 

[timschochet]

I will try to respond to every objection to my statement in the same post. What makes American slavery uniquely evil is that it was carried out by religious Christians who accepted the moral principles of the Enlightenment. Basically I can sum up this argument in a single sentence: they knew better. 
I am an western civilization exceptionalist. I think as a whole we of the west are far better than the savages that came before us, and even those cultures from non-western countries that came after us who do not celebrate individual rights and morality the way that we do. We are better than they are, morally superior, and therefore when we do wrong it’s worse than when they do wrong. 
In the film Judgment at Nuremberg, Spencer Tracy tells Burt Lancaster, the most liberal of the judges who served under the Nazis, “your guilt is greater than the rest of them because you knew what you were doing was wrong. You understood the implications. They (the other judges) believed in Nazism, you did not. You knew what you were doing.” That in essence is my opinion of American slavery. 

 

[stlrams]

Sorry, but I had to  at this part.   

We have to interject more humor here imho.  It’s all in good fun because I know people have hit me with good zingers.  

 

[BladeRunner]

I will try to respond to every objection to my statement in the same post. What makes American slavery uniquely evil is that it was carried out by religious Christians who accepted the moral principles of the Enlightenment. Basically I can sum up this argument in a single sentence: they knew better. 
I am an western civilization exceptionalist. I think as a whole we of the west are far better than the savages that came before us, and even those cultures from non-western countries that came after us who do not celebrate individual rights and morality the way that we do. We are better than they are, morally superior, and therefore when we do wrong it’s worse than when they do wrong. 
In the film Judgment at Nuremberg, Spencer Tracy tells Burt Lancaster, the most liberal of the judges who served under the Nazis, “your guilt is greater than the rest of them because you knew what you were doing was wrong. You understood the implications. They (the other judges) believed in Nazism, you did not. You knew what you were doing.” That in essence is my opinion of American slavery. 

So, what you're saying is that throughout the entirety of human history, ONLY the US Christians knew it was evil and did it anyways?

So you've doubled-down on your ridiculous statement AND not only got your shot in at the US, but Christians as well.  That's like a liberal double-bullseye!  How many virtue points did you get?

You keep adding to the absurdity with even more absurdity. Aburdity 2.0.

 

[sho nuff]

Sorry, but I had to  at this part.   

Joey, you like movies about gladiators?

 

[timschochet]

So, what you're saying is that throughout the entirety of human history, ONLY the US Christians knew it was evil and did it anyways?

So you've doubled-down on your ridiculous statement AND not only got your shot in at the US, but Christians as well.  That's like a liberal double-bullseye!  How many virtue points did you get?

You keep adding to the absurdity with even more absurdity. Aburdity 2.0.

Actually what I wrote is a compliment to Christians. Christians know right from wrong. It was Christianity that ultimately ended American slavery- the abolitionist movement was largely a Christian movement. But it was also Christianity that perpetuated American slavery. And because Christians should know better, that made it worse than other slavery. 
 

The history of the United States  is complex and filled with contradictions. It doesn’t fit into the  simplistic “You either love America or you hate it” meme that set up this thread. 

 

[Insein]

You can’t compare any of the other situations to American slavery. American slavery was uniquely evil, far worse than any other slavery that preceded it or followed it (with the possible exception of Nazi and Soviet slave labor.) 

There it is. The single worst post these boards have ever seen or will ever see. Well done. 

 

[dkp993]

There it is. The single worst post these boards have ever seen or will ever see. Well done. 

While I won’t weigh in on where said post lands on the list, in all fairness Tim does have about 30% of all the posts ever here so the odds are heavily in favor of it being one of his.  It’s just math.  

 

[Insein]

While I won’t weigh in on where said post lands on the list, in all fairness Tim does have about 30% of all the posts ever here so the odd are heavily in favor of it being one of his.  It’s just math.  

He certainly was a heavy favorite. But chalk does come through some times. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

I will try to respond to every objection to my statement in the same post. What makes American slavery uniquely evil is that it was carried out by religious Christians who accepted the moral principles of the Enlightenment. Basically I can sum up this argument in a single sentence: they knew better. 
I am an western civilization exceptionalist. I think as a whole we of the west are far better than the savages that came before us, and even those cultures from non-western countries that came after us who do not celebrate individual rights and morality the way that we do. We are better than they are, morally superior, and therefore when we do wrong it’s worse than when they do wrong. 
In the film Judgment at Nuremberg, Spencer Tracy tells Burt Lancaster, the most liberal of the judges who served under the Nazis, “your guilt is greater than the rest of them because you knew what you were doing was wrong. You understood the implications. They (the other judges) believed in Nazism, you did not. You knew what you were doing.” That in essence is my opinion of American slavery. 

Your average American slaveholder was probably quite ignorant about the moral principles of the Enlightenment, right? I’m assuming only a rudimentary education.  Obviously there were exceptions. 
 

Regardless, though, this is a weird thing to debate. It’s like calling different forms of murder better or worse. It’s all murder!

 

[timschochet]

There it is. The single worst post these boards have ever seen or will ever see. Well done. 

I love ALL of the responses but this is the best one. 

 

[djmich]

Oh great, slavery Olympics.  Maybe we can do some brackets.  Juneteenth Madness.

 

[squistion]

I love ALL of the responses but this is the best one. 

It ranks up there with the one where RA said my post broke the internet. 

 

[Da Guru]

While I won’t weigh in on where said post lands on the list, in all fairness Tim does have about 30% of all the posts ever here so the odds are heavily in favor of it being one of his.  It’s just math.  

So basically one out every three posts is from Tim?    Wowza thats a lot of posting.

 

[BladeRunner]

So basically one out every three posts is from Tim?    Wowza thats a lot of posting.

1 in 3?  There is no way that's possible.  Did Tim take a couple of days off?  It's probably closer to 50%.

 

[timschochet]

1 in 3?  There is no way that's possible.  Did Tim take a couple of days off?  It's probably closer to 50%.

It never occurred to me before that I post too much. I appreciate the constructive criticism. 

 

[Manster]

Actually what I wrote is a compliment to Christians. Christians know right from wrong. It was Christianity that ultimately ended American slavery- the abolitionist movement was largely a Christian movement. But it was also Christianity that perpetuated American slavery. And because Christians should know better, that made it worse than other slavery. 
 

The history of the United States  is complex and filled with contradictions. It doesn’t fit into the  simplistic “You either love America or you hate it” meme that set up this thread. 

So Christians are only religious group "who knew better?"  That is a ridiculous assumption. 

 

[timschochet]

So Christians are only religious group "who knew better?"  That is a ridiculous assumption. 

Not the only group. But the post Enlightenment Christians (please note the EXACT distinction here, I am not speaking of pre-Enlightenment Christians or anyone else) had a much better sense of right and wrong, with regards to both slavery and any other issue involving individualism and the concept of freedom, than did any group that existed before them, and many non-western groups that existed after them. 
Sometimes I don’t think the modern American, or westerner, realizes just how novel and rare in human society the whole idea of the individual really is. In ancient times leading into the Middle Ages, individuals did not exist as a concept. Everything was in terms of collectives: the church, the state, the rich, the poor, the slaves, etc. Only after the Enlightenment did society begin to think in terms of “I”, and even then mainly in the west. In much of Africa and Asia, the Middle East, India, China, Japan, etc. the concept of “I” and the rights of the individual are still very very new and not yet always  taken hold. In a society that thinks in collective terms, slavery is simply a status and not thought of in terms of right and wrong, good or bad. 

 

[djmich]

Actually what I wrote is a compliment to Christians. Christians know right from wrong. It was Christianity that ultimately ended American slavery- the abolitionist movement was largely a Christian movement. But it was also Christianity that perpetuated American slavery. And because Christians should know better, that made it worse than other slavery. 

Dude the mental gymnastics you create to justify a belief is a testament to the power of the mind.  I know use of the word power sounds positive, but his really shouldn't be interpreted as a compliment.

 

[timschochet]

Dude the mental gymnastics you create to justify a belief is a testament to the power of the mind.  I know use of the word power sounds positive, but his really shouldn't be interpreted as a compliment.

Dude they aren’t mental gymnastics. I wish I could take credit for these ideas, I would be a lot brighter than I am. But I didn’t originate them. These are long held concepts. 

 

[djmich]

Dude they aren’t mental gymnastics. I wish I could take credit for these ideas, I would be a lot brighter than I am. But I didn’t originate them. These are long held concepts. 

They idea that christians should know better so anything they did is therefore worse than say what a muslim did or anyone else is silly and a mental gymnastic to support an illogical conclusion.

There was a long held concept that one race of people were inferior to another...the vintage of dumb ideas is a terrible defense of dumb ideas.

 

[timschochet]

They idea that christians should know better so anything they did is therefore worse than say what a muslim did or anyone else is silly and a mental gymnastic to support an illogical conclusion.

There was a long held concept that one race of people were inferior to another...the vintage of dumb ideas is a terrible defense of dumb ideas.

I don’t expect you to agree with me that American slavery was worse than the others. But I’d really like you to acknowledge that it was horrific, evil, with repercussions that exist into the present day, and acknowledge this without any caveats or buts or discussions about other bad acts by other countries. Are you willing to do this? If you are I’ll be satisfied. 

 

[Manster]

Not the only group. But the post Enlightenment Christians (please note the EXACT distinction here, I am not speaking of pre-Enlightenment Christians or anyone else) had a much better sense of right and wrong, with regards to both slavery and any other issue involving individualism and the concept of freedom, than did any group that existed before them, and many non-western groups that existed after them. 
Sometimes I don’t think the modern American, or westerner, realizes just how novel and rare in human society the whole idea of the individual really is. In ancient times leading into the Middle Ages, individuals did not exist as a concept. Everything was in terms of collectives: the church, the state, the rich, the poor, the slaves, etc. Only after the Enlightenment did society begin to think in terms of “I”, and even then mainly in the west. In much of Africa and Asia, the Middle East, India, China, Japan, etc. the concept of “I” and the rights of the individual are still very very new and not yet always  taken hold. In a society that thinks in collective terms, slavery is simply a status and not thought of in terms of right and wrong, good or bad. 

It's almost as if a country that bridges the gap could exist.....maybe struggle with the old ways initially, break free, and continue to improve.

It's unfortunate that the current narrative is that we are no better than where we started....that we were formed on white supremacy, and that it's so ingrained that the current setup must be blown up. 

 

[djmich]

I don’t expect you to agree with me that American slavery was worse than the others. But I’d really like you to acknowledge that it was horrific, evil, with repercussions that exist into the present day, and acknowledge this without any caveats or buts or discussions about other bad acts by other countries. Are you willing to do this? If you are I’ll be satisfied. 

Of course.  Honestly the question itself is indicative of how much you have twisted the "other side" in you head into something that you think you need to fight. You will never be satisfied Tim.

Can you seriously find one single post that even remotely posits from me any of the above.

Can you remind me who actually introduced the caveat that has become the focus of the discussion...that American slavery is worse than any other slavery.

 

[timschochet]

Of course.  Honestly the question itself is indicative of how much you have twisted the "other side" in you head into something that you think you need to fight. You will never be satisfied Tim.

Can you seriously find one single post that even remotely posits from me any of the above.

Can you remind me who actually introduced the caveat that has become the focus of the discussion...that American slavery is worse than any other slavery.

There’s been one post after another in this thread and other threads about how American slavery should be compared to other forms of slavery. I’m not accusing you of writing any of those posts but you didn’t disapprove of them. You disapproved of my post which argued things in the other direction. 

 

[timschochet]

It's almost as if a country that bridges the gap could exist.....maybe struggle with the old ways initially, break free, and continue to improve.

It's unfortunate that the current narrative is that we are no better than where we started....that we were formed on white supremacy, and that it's so ingrained that the current setup must be blown up. 

We are a million times better than where we started. But we’re not where we need to be. And we don’t have to blow anything up to get there. We need a few very moderate changes within the current system. 

 

[Herb]

Sheesh. I've been here a long time and seen lots of good threads devolve into an unreadable quagmire,  but this is an HOF-level example. I agree with Tim more often than I would ever publicly admit, but this is just a bad, bad take.

@Summer WheatI really like the sentiment behind this thread, and while I do my share of complaining, it's good to be reminded of the positive. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Manster]

We are a million times better than where we started. But we’re not where we need to be. And we don’t have to blow anything up to get there. We need a few very moderate changes within the current system. 

I agree 100%.  The problem is this is not what our children are being taught.

 

[djmich]

There’s been one post after another in this thread and other threads about how American slavery should be compared to other forms of slavery. I’m not accusing you of writing any of those posts but you didn’t disapprove of them. You disapproved of my post which argued things in the other direction. 

The fact that you can't see what the original post was about, in terms of the perspectives on the USA (gasp...positive) from Ethiopian immigrants and how you with literally the first reply in this thread made it about the need to discuss the negatives...which then devolved into a slavery competition...just suggesting maybe look at your approach.

My first post in this thread was not a reply to anyone (ie not to Tim) but to comment on the absurdity of "slavery Olympics".

I disapproved with your post because it was absurd.  If there is post that argues American slavery was "better" then link it for me and if I disapprove of it I will. 

Honestly it is all irrelevant but the only things that I think could even remotely be argued on this front in terms of the "quality" of slavery would be the documented treatment of slaves and any perspective on the historical length of slavery.   This is where you get into a bunch of "buts" and "caveats" which you seem to disapprove of unless it is buts or caveats you are interjecting.

Can you at least acknowledge that slavery committed by countries and peoples not America is bad?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Can you at least acknowledge that slavery committed by countries and peoples not America is bad?

I can. 
 

But it’s not really a competition. 

 

[timschochet]

Sheesh. I've been here a long time and seen lots of good threads devolve into an unreadable quagmire,  but this is an HOF-level example. I agree with Tim more often than I would ever publicly admit, but this is just a bad, bad take.

@Summer WheatI really like the sentiment behind this thread, and while I do my share of complaining, it's good to be reminded of the positive. Thanks for sharing.

I respect your comments. Perhaps I went too far expressing my opinion in this thread (though it is honest). I will drop it. 

 

[timschochet]

The fact that you can't see what the original post was about, in terms of the perspectives on the USA (gasp...positive) from Ethiopian immigrants and how you with literally the first reply in this thread made it about the need to discuss the negatives...which then devolved into a slavery competition...just suggesting maybe look at your approach.

My first post in this thread was not a reply to anyone (ie not to Tim) but to comment on the absurdity of "slavery Olympics".

I disapproved with your post because it was absurd.  If there is post that argues American slavery was "better" then link it for me and if I disapprove of it I will. 

Honestly it is all irrelevant but the only things that I think could even remotely be argued on this front in terms of the "quality" of slavery would be the documented treatment of slaves and any perspective on the historical length of slavery.   This is where you get into a bunch of "buts" and "caveats" which you seem to disapprove of unless it is buts or caveats you are interjecting.

Can you at least acknowledge that slavery committed by countries and peoples not America is bad?

Yes. And now let’s drop the subject. 

 

[timschochet]

I agree 100%.  The problem is this is not what our children are being taught.

I think you misunderstand the other side’s intentions. @djmichargues that I misunderstand the other side’s intentions. 
Perhaps we’re closer than we think and our disagreements are mostly about false assumptions we consistently make about the other side. I’m open to that idea even if I don’t always show it. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I agree 100%.  The problem is this is not what our children are being taught.

what do you think our kids are being taught? 

 

[Manster]

I think you misunderstand the other side’s intentions. @djmichargues that I misunderstand the other side’s intentions. 
Perhaps we’re closer than we think and our disagreements are mostly about false assumptions we consistently make about the other side. I’m open to that idea even if I don’t always show it. 

I only go by my own observations, and how it lines up with my world view.  I don't like the direction of the leftists in our country, period.  The left wants to silence people like me or marginalize whatever you wanna call it.  Identity politics are used to keep the young generations living in the past, and pissed off at the white oppressors.......it's a losing approach, imo

 

[Manster]

what do you think our kids are being taught? 

To be victims......to identify as whatever you feel like that day......a lack of self control.....and CRT is working it's way in there.....I could go on and on.  Essentially, like I've said in the past, it's just a different world view.  I don't line up with the leftist world view......and in this climate, I'm the bad guy.

 

[KarmaPolice]

To be victims......to identify as whatever you feel like that day......a lack of self control.....and CRT is working it's way in there.....I could go on and on.  Essentially, like I've said in the past, it's just a different world view.  I don't line up with the leftist world view......and in this climate, I'm the bad guy.

Vastly different school systems in WI, I guess? 

 

[Manster]

Vastly different school systems in WI, I guess? 

Yea maybe so......I live in a very liberal area in Oregon....it's pretty crazy

 

[KarmaPolice]

Yea maybe so......I live in a very liberal area in Oregon....it's pretty crazy

I still doubt those things are being taught at any significant %, if at all.  Kinda goes back to the crt thread and very little actual examples of those things.