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Andre Johnson vs Kevin Jones - Dyno League (1 Viewer)

Who would you rather have on your dynasty team for 2k6 and beyond?

  • WR Andre Johnson (HOU)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • RB Kevin Jones (DET)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

sib

Footballguy
I say Kevin Jones. While AJ is supremely talented, he is stuck in neutral behind a suspect QB who cannot stay upright. Kevin Jones struggled in year 2, but he is a very talented RB (and RBs are more value in a dyno league IMO) and now has a offensive coordinator who knows what to do on offense.

 
I say Kevin Jones. While AJ is supremely talented, he is stuck in neutral behind a suspect QB who cannot stay upright. Kevin Jones struggled in year 2, but he is a very talented RB (and RBs are more value in a dyno league IMO) and now has a offensive coordinator who knows what to do on offense.
:wall: I say Andre Johnson. KJ is constanty injured even when he is used only part time. He is soft. He has also had two years to fail miserably in the NFL. RBs generally don't come back from that. They start fast, and either do well or dont. He is a bust.

Andre is a proven playmaker. The entire HOU offense sucked wind this year, but that is no measure of his individual talent. HOU was mired by terrible playcalling and a bad coach. Kubiak will fix that. AJ was the toast of the town under that very same "neutral QB who can't stay upright".

Lastly, RBs are not necessarily more valuable in a Dyno league. Blasphemy you say? Nonesense. See, if you start 3 WRs and 2 RBs, you want to put more top players in. In '05, unless you had one of the top 5 RBs, they were all the same. You can probably get by with outstanding WR talent and avg RB talent in that format. If your RBs = WRs (starting slots), then yeah.....nuthing beats an RB.

 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.

 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
yes, its a PPR league. good question.
 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
A guy by the name of MArshall Faulk put up some pretty good numbers in a Martz' offense.
 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
yes, its a PPR league. good question.
I think AJ is a top ten receiver in PPR. Just my opinion of course but I won 13 games in my PPR dynasty with nothing at RB (Julius Jones and Priest Holmes). I had strong receivers. AJ will be much better and I expect his numbers to continue to increase over the next few years with Kubiak running the show. If they end up landing Sherman, you HAVE to keep him. Sherman wasn't a great HC but he is a good O-coordinator and Kubiak will find a way to make Carr into a solid QB. I don't think KJ will ever live up to the hype. He gets injured every ten minutes.

 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
A guy by the name of MArshall Faulk put up some pretty good numbers in a Martz' offense.
Plese tell me you aren't comparing Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk..... not even a close comparison. :no: Faulk had one good season under Martz as the head coach.

 
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Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
A guy by the name of MArshall Faulk put up some pretty good numbers in a Martz' offense.
Plese tell me you aren't comparing Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk..... not even a close comparison. :no: Faulk had one good season under Martz as the head coach.
Your comment was that Jones' value was going down because Martz was a pass happy coach. My comment was that one of the biggest fantasy studs of all time came from a Martz system. I guess in that fact and that fact alone, I am comparing Faulk and Jones. I find it hard to believe that you would argue that fact.I do not recall saying that Jones had as good of vision as Faulk, or that he was as good of a cutback runner as Faulk, or pass catcher as Faulk.

Simply that this system produced one of the biggest stud RBs of all time. Why are you so sure of the fact that this system will not help Jones to elevate his game?

edited to say that MArtz is not the head coach here, just the coordinator

 
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Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
A guy by the name of MArshall Faulk put up some pretty good numbers in a Martz' offense.
Plese tell me you aren't comparing Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk..... not even a close comparison. :no: Faulk had one good season under Martz as the head coach.
Your comment was that Jones' value was going down because Martz was a pass happy coach. My comment was that one of the biggest fantasy studs of all time came from a Martz system. I guess in that fact and that fact alone, I am comparing Faulk and Jones. I find it hard to believe that you would argue that fact.I do not recall saying that Jones had as good of vision as Faulk, or that he was as good of a cutback runner as Faulk, or pass catcher as Faulk.

Simply that this system produced one of the biggest stud RBs of all time. Why are you so sure of the fact that this system will not help Jones to elevate his game?

edited to say that MArtz is not the head coach here, just the coordinator
Yeah that is a valid point. I just dont have much faith in Kevin Jones I guess. I don't thing he compares to Faulk in any capacity. Faulk was an unbeleivable receiving threat as well, I dont see Jones being comparable there for sure.
 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
A guy by the name of MArshall Faulk put up some pretty good numbers in a Martz' offense.
Plese tell me you aren't comparing Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk..... not even a close comparison. :no: Faulk had one good season under Martz as the head coach.
Your comment was that Jones' value was going down because Martz was a pass happy coach. My comment was that one of the biggest fantasy studs of all time came from a Martz system. I guess in that fact and that fact alone, I am comparing Faulk and Jones. I find it hard to believe that you would argue that fact.I do not recall saying that Jones had as good of vision as Faulk, or that he was as good of a cutback runner as Faulk, or pass catcher as Faulk.

Simply that this system produced one of the biggest stud RBs of all time. Why are you so sure of the fact that this system will not help Jones to elevate his game?

edited to say that MArtz is not the head coach here, just the coordinator
Yeah that is a valid point. I just dont have much faith in Kevin Jones I guess. I don't thing he compares to Faulk in any capacity. Faulk was an unbeleivable receiving threat as well, I dont see Jones being comparable there for sure.
I'm not completely sold on Kevin Jones either but I think he will improve upon last year's numbers, not that that is saying much....Martz is a good coordinator and works wonders with QBs. With the talent the Lions have at WR, MArtz will use the pass to set up the run. I think you will see Jones get a Faulk-like number of touches each game. About 15 rushing attempts and 2 or 3 receptions. Hopefully, being used this way will decrease his injury risk. The real question here is if Jones can produce enough 20 yard+ carries/rec to make him worthwhile.

 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
A guy by the name of MArshall Faulk put up some pretty good numbers in a Martz' offense.
Plese tell me you aren't comparing Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk..... not even a close comparison. :no: Faulk had one good season under Martz as the head coach.
Your comment was that Jones' value was going down because Martz was a pass happy coach. My comment was that one of the biggest fantasy studs of all time came from a Martz system. I guess in that fact and that fact alone, I am comparing Faulk and Jones. I find it hard to believe that you would argue that fact.I do not recall saying that Jones had as good of vision as Faulk, or that he was as good of a cutback runner as Faulk, or pass catcher as Faulk.

Simply that this system produced one of the biggest stud RBs of all time. Why are you so sure of the fact that this system will not help Jones to elevate his game?

edited to say that MArtz is not the head coach here, just the coordinator
Yeah that is a valid point. I just dont have much faith in Kevin Jones I guess. I don't thing he compares to Faulk in any capacity. Faulk was an unbeleivable receiving threat as well, I dont see Jones being comparable there for sure.
I'm not completely sold on Kevin Jones either but I think he will improve upon last year's numbers, not that that is saying much....Martz is a good coordinator and works wonders with QBs. With the talent the Lions have at WR, MArtz will use the pass to set up the run. I think you will see Jones get a Faulk-like number of touches each game. About 15 rushing attempts and 2 or 3 receptions. Hopefully, being used this way will decrease his injury risk. The real question here is if Jones can produce enough 20 yard+ carries/rec to make him worthwhile.
True. I actually do have a lot of stock in what Martz will do with the passing game there. It might end up keeping KJ healthy in the end. I really think harrington is going to make some serious strides this season, I know I am probably in the minority though.....
 
Is this a points per reception league? If so, i think you have to hold on to Johnson. He is still a number 1 guy and he showed he can put up solid numbners towards the end of the season when he was healthy.

KJ's value isn't going to go up with Mr. Pass happy Martz in my opinion.
A guy by the name of MArshall Faulk put up some pretty good numbers in a Martz' offense.
Plese tell me you aren't comparing Kevin Jones to Marshall Faulk..... not even a close comparison. :no: Faulk had one good season under Martz as the head coach.
Your comment was that Jones' value was going down because Martz was a pass happy coach. My comment was that one of the biggest fantasy studs of all time came from a Martz system. I guess in that fact and that fact alone, I am comparing Faulk and Jones. I find it hard to believe that you would argue that fact.I do not recall saying that Jones had as good of vision as Faulk, or that he was as good of a cutback runner as Faulk, or pass catcher as Faulk.

Simply that this system produced one of the biggest stud RBs of all time. Why are you so sure of the fact that this system will not help Jones to elevate his game?

edited to say that MArtz is not the head coach here, just the coordinator
Yeah that is a valid point. I just dont have much faith in Kevin Jones I guess. I don't thing he compares to Faulk in any capacity. Faulk was an unbeleivable receiving threat as well, I dont see Jones being comparable there for sure.
I'm not completely sold on Kevin Jones either but I think he will improve upon last year's numbers, not that that is saying much....Martz is a good coordinator and works wonders with QBs. With the talent the Lions have at WR, MArtz will use the pass to set up the run. I think you will see Jones get a Faulk-like number of touches each game. About 15 rushing attempts and 2 or 3 receptions. Hopefully, being used this way will decrease his injury risk. The real question here is if Jones can produce enough 20 yard+ carries/rec to make him worthwhile.
True. I actually do have a lot of stock in what Martz will do with the passing game there. It might end up keeping KJ healthy in the end. I really think harrington is going to make some serious strides this season, I know I am probably in the minority though.....
You may be right about Harrington. The thing about MArtz' system, for better or for worse, is that he takes alot of the guesswork out of the QB's hands. NO audibles, just make your read and throw the ball there. We will see if this helps Harrington. Afterall, it did make an MVP out of a supermarket bag boy.
 
Easy on the "DET WR talent". lets get serious here......

There is Roy Williams, who has skillls............and then there is who?

Charles Rogers who is one drug suspension away from missing a year, and who, if he wasn't so damn cheap on the cap, would be released outright.....

and Mike Williams, a guy who played just like his TE size dictated........slow....

...I'm sorry...who else is in that WR talent again? I gotta hear this!

Roy is a one man show...........with no supporting cast. Andre has a better team around him.

Free yourself from the hype.

One last thought...Martz success is built on SPEED.

Roy has it. No one else even comes close.

 
i disagree with Andre Johnson as a top 10 WR in PPR league. While I do like AJ, I cannot see him surpassing the following guys in no particular order:

Steve Smith, Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, Chad Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Santana Moss, Plaxico Burress, Hines Ward, and Terrell Owens.

These guys all have the advantages over AJ that makes them much better for top 10 status.

1/All guys have had seasons of more than 80 catches (with the exception of Plax)..AJ has none

2/These guys have either better QB play than AJ or a better supporting cast around them than AJ, or are on better teams.

I'm not even including proven guys like Darrell Jackson who if u extrapolate the games he did play (4, 5 reg season games + 3 playoff games) is easily a top 10 WR or Randy Moss is also a threat to be a top 10 WR. Also leaving off up and comers like TJ Houshmandzadeh, Roy Williams, and Reggie Wayne who either hit paydirt more than AJ or have better teams around them.

 
Yeah good point.

I do think he could be right up there with some of those guys though. I could see him getting 70-80 receptions for over 1,000 yards and 5-10 TD. That isn't completely out of the question. He had 79 receptions for 1142 and 6 TD in 2004. That would put him at 11 based on this seasons leaders, just below Marvin Harrison. Here is the top ten from last season in terms of receiving. Are you telling me Joey galloway, Donald Driver, and Terry Glenn are that much better than Johnson?

1 Steve Smith WR, CAR 103 1563 15.2 97.7 80 12 1 0

2 Santana Moss WR, WAS 84 1483 17.7 92.7 78 9 2 1

3 Chad Johnson WR, CIN 97 1432 14.8 89.5 70 9 1 0

4 L. Fitzgerald WR, ARI 103 1409 13.7 88.1 47 10 0 0

5 Anquan Boldin WR, ARI 102 1402 13.7 100.1 54 7 2 1

6 Torry Holt WR, STL 102 1331 13.0 95.1 44 9 2 1

7 Joey Galloway WR, TAM 83 1287 15.5 80.4 80 10 0 0

8 Donald Driver WR, GNB 86 1221 14.2 76.3 59 5 0 0

9 P. Burress WR, NYG 76 1214 16.0 75.9 78 7 1 1

10 M. Harrison WR, IND 82 1146

 
I say Kevin Jones. While AJ is supremely talented, he is stuck in neutral behind a suspect QB who cannot stay upright. Kevin Jones struggled in year 2, but he is a very talented RB (and RBs are more value in a dyno league IMO) and now has a offensive coordinator who knows what to do on offense.
I don't care about your team.
 
Yeah good point.

I do think he could be right up there with some of those guys though. I could see him getting 70-80 receptions for over 1,000 yards and 5-10 TD. That isn't completely out of the question. He had 79 receptions for 1142 and 6 TD in 2004. That would put him at 11 based on this seasons leaders, just below Marvin Harrison. Here is the top ten from last season in terms of receiving. Are you telling me Joey galloway, Donald Driver, and Terry Glenn are that much better than Johnson?

1 Steve Smith WR, CAR 103 1563 15.2 97.7 80 12 1 0

2 Santana Moss WR, WAS 84 1483 17.7 92.7 78 9 2 1

3 Chad Johnson WR, CIN 97 1432 14.8 89.5 70 9 1 0

4 L. Fitzgerald WR, ARI 103 1409 13.7 88.1 47 10 0 0

5 Anquan Boldin WR, ARI 102 1402 13.7 100.1 54 7 2 1

6 Torry Holt WR, STL 102 1331 13.0 95.1 44 9 2 1

7 Joey Galloway WR, TAM 83 1287 15.5 80.4 80 10 0 0

8 Donald Driver WR, GNB 86 1221 14.2 76.3 59 5 0 0

9 P. Burress WR, NYG 76 1214 16.0 75.9 78 7 1 1

10 M. Harrison WR, IND 82 1146
Yard Receptions FF Points1 Smith S, CAR 1563 103 337.8

2 Fitzgerald L, ARI 1409 103 308

3 Johnson C, CIN 1432 97 297.5

4 Boldin A, ARI 1398 102 288.3

4 Holt T, STL 1331 102 287.3

6 Moss S, WAS 1483 84 284

7 Galloway J, TB 1287 83 272.1

8 Harrison M, IND 1146 82 268.6

9 Chambers C, MIA 1118 82 265

10 Driver D, GB 1221 86 239

Johnson, A HOU 668 63 142

Here are the standings from a PPR league. AJ is pretty close to being here with his stats from 2004 when he completed an entire season. Last season he missed 3 games and wasn't 100% in a few of them.

 
Yeah good point.

I do think he could be right up there with some of those guys though. I could see him getting 70-80 receptions for over 1,000 yards and 5-10 TD. That isn't completely out of the question. He had 79 receptions for 1142 and 6 TD in 2004. That would put him at 11 based on this seasons leaders, just below Marvin Harrison. Here is the top ten from last season in terms of receiving. Are you telling me Joey galloway, Donald Driver, and Terry Glenn are that much better than Johnson?

1 Steve Smith WR, CAR 103 1563 15.2 97.7 80 12 1 0

2 Santana Moss WR, WAS 84 1483 17.7 92.7 78 9 2 1

3 Chad Johnson WR, CIN 97 1432 14.8 89.5 70 9 1 0

4 L. Fitzgerald WR, ARI 103 1409 13.7 88.1 47 10 0 0

5 Anquan Boldin WR, ARI 102 1402 13.7 100.1 54 7 2 1

6 Torry Holt WR, STL 102 1331 13.0 95.1 44 9 2 1

7 Joey Galloway WR, TAM 83 1287 15.5 80.4 80 10 0 0

8 Donald Driver WR, GNB 86 1221 14.2 76.3 59 5 0 0

9 P. Burress WR, NYG 76 1214 16.0 75.9 78 7 1 1

10 M. Harrison WR, IND 82 1146
I don't think any of those guys (galloway, driver, glenn) are better than AJ in pure talent. But keep in mind you are comparing AJ's career best to the guys above. But I really don't think AJ can outproduce a healthy Randy Moss, a healthy DJax, or 16 games from TO or even Javon Walker (with Favre) The other stat that is missing is TDs. All those guys above were pretty reliable for TDs. AJ for a #1 WR doesn't get many TDs (12 TDs in 3 yrs)

 
Well, I guess it is a tough decision either way. IF you keep AJ, Jones will probably go off. If you keep KJ, AJ will probably go off. Always works that way.

I just think a #1 WR in a PPR league is golden. Can you trade one of them away?

 
point made, but this is about KJ vs AJ and KJ just doesn't measure up!

go ahead and extrapolate his numbers.......if u can turn in 6 no shows and 10 performances where he was out by halftime into a "what if" scenario for 16 games!

hehe

KJ is a bust. A monumental bust.

Last year, it was "Mooch will make him better"

"He'll get more carries"

"The lions O' has to improve, right?"

And dudes drafted him in the 2nd and 3rd round last year.

History tells the tale. Don't make that same mistake again!

 
point made, but this is about KJ vs AJ and KJ just doesn't measure up!

go ahead and extrapolate his numbers.......if u can turn in 6 no shows and 10 performances where he was out by halftime into a "what if" scenario for 16 games!

hehe

KJ is a bust. A monumental bust.

Last year, it was "Mooch will make him better"

"He'll get more carries"

"The lions O' has to improve, right?"

And dudes drafted him in the 2nd and 3rd round last year.

History tells the tale. Don't make that same mistake again!
A guy in my dynasty league draftd him #4 OVER ALL! No BS! He went in the first round in a couple of leagues and no later than 2nd round in any draft I was in!
 
let him do it again! your fantasy team will be much stronger for it!!

...and if Andre Johsnon drops and becomes my #3 WR, and i get him in 5th round......Im championship bound!

:lmao:

 
I still say AJ. They are relatively the same age. RB dont play for that long anyway and he is always hurt to being with.

 
i agree, but the poll suggests there will be plenty of suckers taking KJ high again in redraft leagues, so lets take advantage!

Sib, the thread owner, owns KJ in our Dyno league, and I own AJ.

He contends KJ is a solid 1 for 1 trade offer!! No matter what the poll results, or what is said on this forum, that deal will never happen with me. This was how this thread was born.

What do you think?

 
I voted for KJ. I own KJ and have an offer on the table to acquire AJ that I will likely accept. I voted for who I would prefer in my league. (14-team, no PPR).

I think AJ may be the better long term prospect and KJ's career to date concerns me but running backs that aren't in RBBC and are guaranteed to be the starter if they're healthy are still rare. Especially in larger leagues. There isn't 28 of them.

In a smaller league or a PPR league, I might have reversed my vote.

 
i agree, but the poll suggests there will be plenty of suckers taking KJ high again in redraft leagues, so lets take advantage!

Sib, the thread owner, owns KJ in our Dyno league, and I own AJ.

He contends KJ is a solid 1 for 1 trade offer!! No matter what the poll results, or what is said on this forum, that deal will never happen with me. This was how this thread was born.

What do you think?
So the thread starter offered you KJ for AJ, yet he said he'd rather have KJ in his initial post?I'm not following, why would he offer you that trade if he liked Jones better. :confused:

 
I'd go with AJ.

I don't have the data in front of me, but I believe that ALL of KJ's good games, dating back to his rookie year, came against weak defenses. His rookie year he played Arizona, Minnesota twice, and a few other weak defenses which made him look awesome. That's why he was drafted so high last year. While there probably were some mitigating factors leading to his terrible season, he needs to shoulder a fair amount of the blame. It reminds me statistically of what happened to William Green who gave everyone a head fake at the end of his rookie year as well.

 
thanks Barracuda, You're right.

Further, its interesting that another guy with only 1 year in the league, JJ Arrington, is being thrown down the stairs with just as many "contributing factors".

In fact, the thread owner see "no value" in JJ...and since he got burned by him this year, I can't blame him for the sour grapes...but..

KJ broke only few runs against bad D's that got fantasy owners' blood pumping..and found himself as an alternate to the probowl in 05....JJ didn't do that, he split time with the veteren and struggled through 12 different offensive lines in AZ, but he played much better in his last 6 avg 3.6 YPC which is solid for a rook. Meanwhile, KJ has done zero in his 2nd year with more weapons, hype etc.

Yeah, one guy said "RBs not in RBBC are rare..etc." But KJ WAS in an RBBC.

This example IS a PPR (and thread owner should have made that clear in poll),

and RBs just don't struggle for 2 years as first rounders and end up starters later....unless ur name is Thomas Jones...he is only guy I can think of that struggled for his first 2 years and then turned it around....TJ struggled for 5 years, and 3 teams before finally putting a decent year together....

I'll wait for KJ to be released or traded and re-evaluate him then. for now, he is still a bust.

 
And to further your point, Thomas Jones, had a breathing issue that was corrected after a few years in the league, so there was an additional reason why he rebounded.

 
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thanks Barracuda, You're right.

Further, its interesting that another guy with only 1 year in the league, JJ Arrington, is being thrown down the stairs with just as many "contributing factors".

In fact, the thread owner see "no value" in JJ...and since he got burned by him this year, I can't blame him for the sour grapes...but..

KJ broke only few runs against bad D's that got fantasy owners' blood pumping..and found himself as an alternate to the probowl in 05....JJ didn't do that, he split time with the veteren and struggled through 12 different offensive lines in AZ, but he played much better in his last 6 avg 3.6 YPC which is solid for a rook. Meanwhile, KJ has done zero in his 2nd year with more weapons, hype etc.

Yeah, one guy said "RBs not in RBBC are rare..etc." But KJ WAS in an RBBC.

This example IS a PPR (and thread owner should have made that clear in poll),

and RBs just don't struggle for 2 years as first rounders and end up starters later....unless ur name is Thomas Jones...he is only guy I can think of that struggled for his first 2 years and then turned it around....TJ struggled for 5 years, and 3 teams before finally putting a decent year together....

I'll wait for KJ to be released or traded and re-evaluate him then. for now, he is still a bust.
KJ has had 2 seasons of NFL experience. Year 1 - 1,133 yds and 5 tds

Year 2 - 664 yds and 5 tds

To me that is one pretty good year and one mediore season. If both years is considered "struggling", then it's fair to say Andre Johnson has struggled every year in the league.

Andre Johnson:

Year 1: 66 catches, 976 yds and 4 tds

Year 2: 79 catches 1142 and 6 tds

Year 3: 63 catches and 688 yds and 2tds

 
thanks Barracuda, You're right.

Further, its interesting that another guy with only 1 year in the league, JJ Arrington, is being thrown down the stairs with just as many "contributing factors".

In fact, the thread owner see "no value" in JJ...and since he got burned by him this year, I can't blame him for the sour grapes...but..

KJ broke only few runs against bad D's that got fantasy owners' blood pumping..and found himself as an alternate to the probowl in 05....JJ didn't do that, he split time with the veteren and struggled through 12 different offensive lines in AZ, but he played much better in his last 6 avg 3.6 YPC which is solid for a rook. Meanwhile, KJ has done zero in his 2nd year with more weapons, hype etc.

Yeah, one guy said "RBs not in RBBC are rare..etc." But KJ WAS in an RBBC.

This example IS a PPR (and thread owner should have made that clear in poll),

and RBs just don't struggle for 2 years as first rounders and end up starters later....unless ur name is Thomas Jones...he is only guy I can think of that struggled for his first 2 years and then turned it around....TJ struggled for 5 years, and 3 teams before finally putting a decent year together....

I'll wait for KJ to be released or traded and re-evaluate him then. for now, he is still a bust.
KJ has had 2 seasons of NFL experience. Year 1 - 1,133 yds and 5 tds

Year 2 - 664 yds and 5 tds

To me that is one pretty good year and one mediore season. If both years is considered "struggling", then it's fair to say Andre Johnson has struggled every year in the league.

Andre Johnson:

Year 1: 66 catches, 976 yds and 4 tds

Year 2: 79 catches 1142 and 6 tds

Year 3: 63 catches and 688 yds and 2tds
Then why did you want to offer Jones for Johnson when you like Jones more???
 
if AJ was an RB, ur logic would follow, but he is a WR.

WRs usually need 3 years to break into the league, unless they are special (see AJ, Roy, Larry Fitz, Anquan, etc).

there is a distinct difference in development. GMs expect RBs to produce in year one at a very high level. They dont have that expectation from WRs (or QBs)...

Someitmes they get lucky..........but 95% of time......its takes WRs more time to develop.

KJ has had his time.

Andre has had his.

Andre has exceeded expectations until 2005

KJ never has.

:boxing:

 
thanks Barracuda, You're right.

Further, its interesting that another guy with only 1 year in the league, JJ Arrington, is being thrown down the stairs with just as many "contributing factors".

In fact, the thread owner see "no value" in JJ...and since he got burned by him this year, I can't blame him for the sour grapes...but..

KJ broke only few runs against bad D's that got fantasy owners' blood pumping..and found himself as an alternate to the probowl in 05....JJ didn't do that, he split time with the veteren and struggled through 12 different offensive lines in AZ, but he played much better in his last 6 avg 3.6 YPC which is solid for a rook.  Meanwhile, KJ has done zero in his 2nd year with more weapons, hype etc.

Yeah, one guy said "RBs not in RBBC are rare..etc."  But KJ WAS in an RBBC.

This example IS a PPR (and thread owner should have made that clear in poll),

and RBs just don't struggle for 2 years as first rounders and end up starters later....unless ur name is Thomas Jones...he is only guy I can think of that struggled for his first 2 years and then turned it around....TJ struggled for 5 years, and 3 teams before finally putting a decent year together....

I'll wait for KJ to be released or traded and re-evaluate him then.  for now, he is still a bust.
KJ has had 2 seasons of NFL experience. Year 1 - 1,133 yds and 5 tds

Year 2 - 664 yds and 5 tds

To me that is one pretty good year and one mediore season. If both years is considered "struggling", then it's fair to say Andre Johnson has struggled every year in the league.

Andre Johnson:

Year 1: 66 catches, 976 yds and 4 tds

Year 2: 79 catches 1142 and 6 tds

Year 3: 63 catches and 688 yds and 2tds
Then why did you want to offer Jones for Johnson when you like Jones more???
Dyno league. aside from K Jones, I got Larry Johnson, Julius Jones, Frank gore, samkon gado. i think i am pretty good shape in RB and would like to upgrade my WR corps. I feel I have a bigger hole at WR than RB.If the needs were equal between WR/RB on my team, I would keep K Jones

 
How quickly we forget Andre's two very good seasons after one bad one.
Seems you've forgotten about KJ's good 04 season after one bad one. Why should this surprise you?
 
if AJ was an RB, ur logic would follow, but he is a WR.

WRs usually need 3 years to break into the league, unless they are special (see AJ, Roy, Larry Fitz, Anquan, etc).

there is a distinct difference in development. GMs expect RBs to produce in year one at a very high level. They dont have that expectation from WRs (or QBs)...

Someitmes they get lucky..........but 95% of time......its takes WRs more time to develop.

KJ has had his time.

Andre has had his.

Andre has exceeded expectations until 2005

KJ never has.

:boxing:
Maybe they don't expect the WR's to produce at a stud level in year 1, but by year 2 and beyond they should be.Larry Fitzgerald broke out in year 2.

Boldin broke out in year 1.

Holt broke out in year 2.

Boston broke out in year 2.

Moss broke out in year 1.

Chad Johnson broke out in the 2nd half of year 2.

Koren Robinson broke out in the 2nd half of year 2.

These are off the top of my head, there are plenty more examples.

The fact that Andre Johnson still isn't living up to expectations after 3 years makes him just as much of a bust as you want to consider KJ.

 
if AJ was an RB, ur logic would follow, but he is a WR.

WRs usually need 3 years to break into the league, unless they are special (see AJ, Roy, Larry Fitz, Anquan, etc).

there is a distinct difference in development.  GMs expect RBs to produce in year one at a very high level.  They dont have that expectation from WRs (or QBs)...

Someitmes they get lucky..........but 95% of time......its takes WRs more time to develop.

KJ has had his time.

Andre has had his.

Andre has exceeded expectations until 2005

KJ never has.

:boxing:
Boston broke out in year 2.
BOSTON :lmao:
 
if AJ was an RB, ur logic would follow, but he is a WR.

WRs usually need 3 years to break into the league, unless they are special (see AJ, Roy, Larry Fitz, Anquan, etc).

there is a distinct difference in development.  GMs expect RBs to produce in year one at a very high level.  They dont have that expectation from WRs (or QBs)...

Someitmes they get lucky..........but 95% of time......its takes WRs more time to develop.

KJ has had his time.

Andre has had his.

Andre has exceeded expectations until 2005

KJ never has.

:boxing:
Boston broke out in year 2.
BOSTON :lmao:
Laugh all you want, but he only got about 1000 more yards in his 3rd season than AJ did last year. With Plummer at QB on the worst franchise in the NFL's history no less. So spare me the "AJ is in a bad situation" stuff...Anyone that wants to call Boston a bust should be calling AJ the supreme WR bust of all time....

 
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yes, he had a good SECOND half of a season against bad defenses.

KJ has never put a full season together.

Ur move DrJ :ph34r:
you can use that same argument against Andre Johnson. Andre Johnson hasn't put a good season together either. 2004 was Andre Johnson's best year in the league :no: (79 receptions, 1142 yards, and 6 tds). In the first 8 games of 2004 he had 45 receptions, 693 yds, and 4 tds. In the latter 8 games of 2004 he had 34 receptions, 449 yds and 2 tds. That downward spiral continued in 2005 as Carr couldn't get AJ the ball and defenses could throw all types of exotic coverage at him due to no other threats around him.
 
I'd say Marshall Faulk actually wouldn't be a terrible comparison to KJ at this point either - for those that want to say a RB is great in years 1 and 2 or not at all.

Marshall came out with a darned good rookie campaign.

His year 2 numbers took a pretty sizable dip. His total yardage wasn't terrible, but wasn't great either as he barely cracked 1K rushing. His 3.7 YPC sure didn't look too spectacular.

By then end of year 3 though, it sure didn't look like this guy was the #2 overall pick and destined for HOF consideration. He played in 13 games, and only managed 587 yards rushing with a 3.0 YPC average. Even with his 428 receiving, he still just broke 1K total yards and his career YPC dipped down to 3.68.

It wasn't until Manning came along that this guy started to resemble a guy that was drafted 2 overall. From that point forward, he was a fantasy force.

Tiki Barber's draft position is pretty close to KJ's. He was 2.06, KJ was a late 1st in a deeper draft (more teams). Barber wasn't really a viable fantasy starter until year 3 in the league and still was merely above average until the past 2 monstrous years.

RB's can and do improve. Especially ones like KJ and Faulk, that have to wallow on complete crap teams early in their career.

 
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If you ever saw Marshall Faulk and Kevin Jones play, you would take that statement back. Faulk is a sure fire hall of famer, and not because of, but in spite, of Martz. Kevin Jones was successful for half a season against bad defenses. That's like comparing Rick Mirer to Joe Montana. I'll give you the chance now. Take it back!

 
DRJ....RBs who improve as they get older are EXTREMELY Rare.....and only improve based on system, not skill.

Tiki is the only one who I think his skills actually improved...especially ball control.

This is extremely rare becuase when ur an RB, you have already come to the NFL dance with the skills you have and instinct. The position skill set is smaller, and technique means less with RUN skills, which is our discussion point here (not pass blocking). In contrast, OL almost always build thier technique becasue their position requires more technique and less instinct.....which is why its not a "skill" position. I digress.....anyway...

TJones had health issues and was miscast in the wrong system in AZ. So was Marshall in IND before he was traded to STL in the Edge deal (drafted from MIA, FL). MF nearly caught as many balls as he carried in STL, and like LT2, his fantasy value wasn't from rushing...it was receiving that made him elite.

Can KJ turn around? sure its possible, but not probable. He is also miscast, and would thrive better in DEN, BAL*, or ATl. Zone schemes where RBs are asked to hit a specific hole, and make one cut....this system does not require highly gifted (skilled) RBs with great vision (think Barry, LT2, Dunn when u think vision).

I think KJ is the same type of runner as Kevan Barlow. A hard runner with limited creativity and wriggle. For example, KJ always spins after contact in same direction. It worked great (late '04) till teams had film on him (2005). Both have a running style that looks to run over defenders rather than run by, and their body type doesn't match that, thus injuries. What body type do you need? Think Mike Anderson, TDavis, EDickerson. KJ and KB are tough, but not tough enough to overcome the hits they take because they are not big enough or fast enough or elusive enough.

Both of these guys are best used as backups if not in a zone blocking scheme (which lessens their wear, and maximizes their limited skill). They are good, but not great backs. Fantasy owners have given both of them extra love in preaseason due to being starters, and that love is undeserved.

As for your Faulk-Manning story, its sadly misleading. :no: Those boys played one year together, Peyton's rookie year. Faulk had to run more to save Manning's bacon. Manning was not the pro he is now, nor was he remotely respected by 1998 defenses. Faulk blossomed the next year under Vermeil in STL, a coach who notoriously perfers quicker, undersized backs like Faulk, Preist, Westbrook, but who are extremely versitile, but weak inside (due to size).

Now, if you want to jump the shark with KJ, you probably already have and voted for him (and owned him in 2005). For dynasty, you'll stubbornly chase KJ just like many did with Barlow. There are few who still believe in Kevan, but they're out there! ..and they prefer to stay quiet. You'll join that army with ur love for KJ. :X

Andre Johnson had a horrible year. But so did every HOU player not named DDavis that mattered. Is he on a decline, not at all. Capers always builds a franchise, then falls apart in year 3-4. This is his MO and his doing, and got him fired again. Kubiak made Plummer look great. Think about what I just said and let it sink in....the work Plummer and Great in the same sentence....but its true.

For DRJ's sake I'll list some true WR busts as he seems unsure of what that really means. For the sake of time and gigabites of space, I'll stick with just first round busts from 1997 thru 2004. To not be a bust, they have to be a consistent, proven starter for 3 years. If its obvious they'll be a starter and are only in their 2nd year, I gave them benefit of doubt (see Fitzgerald, McGahee, LJ). A consistent #3 Wr on their team does not qualify, nor do journeymen.:

TOTAL BUSTS: (20):

Charles Rogers, Reggie Williams, Freddie Mitchell, Rashaun Woods, Bryant Johnson, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Rod Gardner, Peter Warrick, Travis Taylor, Sylvester Morris, R J Soward, David Boston, Troy Edwards, Kevin Dyson, Marcus Nash, Ike Hilliard, Yatiel Green, Reidel Anthony, Rae Carruth

JURY STILL OUT: (7):

Donte Stallworth*, Ashley Lelie*, Jevon Walker*, Michael Jenkins, Lee Evans, Roy Williams*, Michael Clayton, TAM

* 2005 was only time Donte broke 800 yds. in 4 years.

* 2004 was only yr Ashley broke 800yds. in 4 years.

* 2004 was only yr Jevon broke 800yds. in 4 years. If Favre goes, will he bust?

* 2004 rookie year was only time Roy broke 800 yds, very fragile.

ESTABLISHED STARTERS: (7):

Andre Johnson#, Santana Moss#, Plexico Burress#, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald#

# 2005 was only time in 3 years Andre didn't pass 800 or 900 yd markers.

# Santana didn't produce anything till 3rd year.

# Plex has been very inconsistent.

# Fitzy didn't break 800 yds last year, but broke out in his 2nd year. Unproven over time, but very promising, and will be starter for coming years.

It should be noted that Roy Williams gets more hype than Andre as does Jevon and others in the "Jury Still Out" category.

WRs are VERY hard to pan, and take more time, and I encourage DRJ to read up or ask a GM to validate. Further, here is the RB pic in the same time frame:

TOTAL BUSTS: (9):

Curtis Enis, Robert Edwards, John Avery, Ron Dayne, Trung Canidate,

Michael Bennett, William Green, TJ Duckett, Thomas Jones*

* TJones is on his 3rd team and probably won't hold off Benson in 06. Look at his numbers, but he is the lone example of improvement after first 3 years.

JURY STILL OUT: (3):

Steven Jackson, Chris Perry, Kevin Jones

ESTABLISHED STARTERS: (11):

Warrick Dunn, Antowain Smith, Fred Taylor, Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams,

Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Deuce McAllister,

Willis McGahee, Larry Johnson.

Wow. Lesson learned for DRJ. RBs are far more successful and sooner. I only used first rounders because they have the best shot by NFL pro consensus, which is why they went in the first round!

Game. Set. Match. :football:

 
DRJ....RBs who improve as they get older are EXTREMELY Rare.....and only improve based on system, not skill.

Tiki is the only one who I think his skills actually improved...especially ball control.

This is extremely rare becuase when ur an RB, you have already come to the NFL dance with the skills you have and instinct. The position skill set is smaller, and technique means less with RUN skills, which is our discussion point here (not pass blocking). In contrast, OL almost always build thier technique becasue their position requires more technique and less instinct.....which is why its not a "skill" position. I digress.....anyway...

TJones had health issues and was miscast in the wrong system in AZ. So was Marshall in IND before he was traded to STL in the Edge deal (drafted from MIA, FL). MF nearly caught as many balls as he carried in STL, and like LT2, his fantasy value wasn't from rushing...it was receiving that made him elite.

Can KJ turn around? sure its possible, but not probable. He is also miscast, and would thrive better in DEN, BAL*, or ATl. Zone schemes where RBs are asked to hit a specific hole, and make one cut....this system does not require highly gifted (skilled) RBs with great vision (think Barry, LT2, Dunn when u think vision).

I think KJ is the same type of runner as Kevan Barlow. A hard runner with limited creativity and wriggle. For example, KJ always spins after contact in same direction. It worked great (late '04) till teams had film on him (2005). Both have a running style that looks to run over defenders rather than run by, and their body type doesn't match that, thus injuries. What body type do you need? Think Mike Anderson, TDavis, EDickerson. KJ and KB are tough, but not tough enough to overcome the hits they take because they are not big enough or fast enough or elusive enough.

Both of these guys are best used as backups if not in a zone blocking scheme (which lessens their wear, and maximizes their limited skill). They are good, but not great backs. Fantasy owners have given both of them extra love in preaseason due to being starters, and that love is undeserved.

As for your Faulk-Manning story, its sadly misleading. :no: Those boys played one year together, Peyton's rookie year. Faulk had to run more to save Manning's bacon. Manning was not the pro he is now, nor was he remotely respected by 1998 defenses. Faulk blossomed the next year under Vermeil in STL, a coach who notoriously perfers quicker, undersized backs like Faulk, Preist, Westbrook, but who are extremely versitile, but weak inside (due to size).

Now, if you want to jump the shark with KJ, you probably already have and voted for him (and owned him in 2005). For dynasty, you'll stubbornly chase KJ just like many did with Barlow. There are few who still believe in Kevan, but they're out there! ..and they prefer to stay quiet. You'll join that army with ur love for KJ. :X

Andre Johnson had a horrible year. But so did every HOU player not named DDavis that mattered. Is he on a decline, not at all. Capers always builds a franchise, then falls apart in year 3-4. This is his MO and his doing, and got him fired again. Kubiak made Plummer look great. Think about what I just said and let it sink in....the work Plummer and Great in the same sentence....but its true.

For DRJ's sake I'll list some true WR busts as he seems unsure of what that really means. For the sake of time and gigabites of space, I'll stick with just first round busts from 1997 thru 2004. To not be a bust, they have to be a consistent, proven starter for 3 years. If its obvious they'll be a starter and are only in their 2nd year, I gave them benefit of doubt (see Fitzgerald, McGahee, LJ). A consistent #3 Wr on their team does not qualify, nor do journeymen.:

TOTAL BUSTS: (20):

Charles Rogers, Reggie Williams, Freddie Mitchell, Rashaun Woods, Bryant Johnson, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Rod Gardner, Peter Warrick, Travis Taylor, Sylvester Morris, R J Soward, David Boston, Troy Edwards, Kevin Dyson, Marcus Nash, Ike Hilliard, Yatiel Green, Reidel Anthony, Rae Carruth

JURY STILL OUT: (7):

Donte Stallworth*, Ashley Lelie*, Jevon Walker*, Michael Jenkins, Lee Evans, Roy Williams*, Michael Clayton, TAM

* 2005 was only time Donte broke 800 yds. in 4 years.

* 2004 was only yr Ashley broke 800yds. in 4 years.

* 2004 was only yr Jevon broke 800yds. in 4 years. If Favre goes, will he bust?

* 2004 rookie year was only time Roy broke 800 yds, very fragile.

ESTABLISHED STARTERS: (7):

Andre Johnson#, Santana Moss#, Plexico Burress#, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald#

# 2005 was only time in 3 years Andre didn't pass 800 or 900 yd markers.

# Santana didn't produce anything till 3rd year.

# Plex has been very inconsistent.

# Fitzy didn't break 800 yds last year, but broke out in his 2nd year. Unproven over time, but very promising, and will be starter for coming years.

It should be noted that Roy Williams gets more hype than Andre as does Jevon and others in the "Jury Still Out" category.

WRs are VERY hard to pan, and take more time, and I encourage DRJ to read up or ask a GM to validate. Further, here is the RB pic in the same time frame:

TOTAL BUSTS: (9):

Curtis Enis, Robert Edwards, John Avery, Ron Dayne, Trung Canidate,

Michael Bennett, William Green, TJ Duckett, Thomas Jones*

* TJones is on his 3rd team and probably won't hold off Benson in 06. Look at his numbers, but he is the lone example of improvement after first 3 years.

JURY STILL OUT: (3):

Steven Jackson, Chris Perry, Kevin Jones

ESTABLISHED STARTERS: (11):

Warrick Dunn, Antowain Smith, Fred Taylor, Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams,

Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Deuce McAllister,

Willis McGahee, Larry Johnson.

Wow. Lesson learned for DRJ. RBs are far more successful and sooner. I only used first rounders because they have the best shot by NFL pro consensus, which is why they went in the first round!

Game. Set. Match. :football:
Not really sure of the point you are trying to make. If you're point is that RBs are more successful than WR in general..then you should be on the Kevin Jones bandwagon. If the concern is that very few good RBs regress after early success that isn't necessarily true. Check out the career numbers of Marshall Faulk, Jerome Bettis, Priest Holmes, Edgerrin James, John Riggins...they all stumbled early or some point in their careers to post huge numbers later on. You're reasoning and data behind the success of 1st round RBs in particular proves the point on why KJ is a better long-term dynasty prospect over Andre Johnson. Thanks for doing the legwork! :thumbup:
 
DRJ....RBs who improve as they get older are EXTREMELY Rare.....and only improve based on system, not skill.

Tiki is the only one who I think his skills actually improved...especially ball control.

This is extremely rare becuase when ur an RB, you have already come to the NFL dance with the skills you have and instinct.  The position skill set is smaller, and technique means less with RUN skills, which is our discussion point here (not pass blocking).  In contrast, OL almost always build thier technique becasue their position requires more technique and less instinct.....which is why its not a "skill" position.  I digress.....anyway...

TJones had health issues and was miscast in the wrong system in AZ.  So was Marshall in IND before he was traded to STL in the Edge deal (drafted from MIA, FL).  MF nearly caught as many balls as he carried in STL, and like LT2, his fantasy value wasn't from rushing...it was receiving that made him elite.

Can KJ turn around?  sure its possible, but not probable.  He is also miscast, and would thrive better in DEN, BAL*, or ATl.  Zone schemes where RBs are asked to hit a specific hole, and make one cut....this system does not require highly gifted (skilled) RBs with great vision (think Barry, LT2, Dunn when u think vision).

I think KJ is the same type of runner as Kevan Barlow.  A hard runner with limited creativity and wriggle.  For example, KJ always spins after contact in same direction.  It worked great (late '04) till teams had film on him (2005).  Both have a running style that looks to run over defenders rather than run by, and their body type doesn't match that, thus injuries.  What body type do you need?  Think Mike Anderson, TDavis, EDickerson.  KJ and KB are tough, but not tough enough to overcome the hits they take because they are not big enough or fast enough or elusive enough.

Both of these guys are best used as backups if not in a zone blocking scheme (which lessens their wear, and maximizes their limited skill).  They are good, but not great backs.  Fantasy owners have given both of them extra love in preaseason due to being starters, and that love is undeserved.

As for your Faulk-Manning story, its sadly misleading.  :no:   Those boys played one year together, Peyton's rookie year.  Faulk had to run more to save Manning's bacon.  Manning was not the pro he is now, nor was he remotely respected by 1998 defenses.  Faulk blossomed the next year under Vermeil in STL, a coach who notoriously perfers quicker, undersized backs like Faulk, Preist, Westbrook, but who are extremely versitile, but weak inside (due to size).

Now, if you want to jump the shark with KJ, you probably already have and voted for him (and owned him in 2005).  For dynasty, you'll stubbornly chase KJ just like many did with Barlow.  There are few who still believe in Kevan, but they're out there!  ..and they prefer to stay quiet.  You'll join that army with ur love for KJ.   :X

Andre Johnson had a horrible year.  But so did every HOU player not named DDavis that mattered.  Is he on a decline, not at all.  Capers always builds a franchise, then falls apart in year 3-4.  This is his MO and his doing, and got him fired again.  Kubiak made Plummer look great.  Think about what I just said and let it sink in....the work Plummer and Great in the same sentence....but its true.

For DRJ's sake I'll list some true WR busts as he seems unsure of what that really means.  For the sake of time and gigabites of space, I'll stick with just first round busts from 1997 thru 2004.  To not be a bust, they have to be a consistent, proven starter for 3 years.  If its obvious they'll be a starter and are only in their 2nd year, I gave them benefit of doubt (see Fitzgerald, McGahee, LJ). A consistent #3 Wr on their team does not qualify, nor do journeymen.:

TOTAL BUSTS: (20):

Charles Rogers, Reggie Williams, Freddie Mitchell, Rashaun Woods, Bryant Johnson, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Rod Gardner, Peter Warrick, Travis Taylor, Sylvester Morris, R J Soward, David Boston, Troy Edwards, Kevin Dyson, Marcus Nash, Ike Hilliard, Yatiel Green, Reidel Anthony, Rae Carruth

JURY STILL OUT: (7):

Donte Stallworth*, Ashley Lelie*, Jevon Walker*, Michael Jenkins, Lee Evans, Roy Williams*, Michael Clayton, TAM

* 2005 was only time Donte broke 800 yds. in 4 years.

* 2004 was only yr Ashley broke 800yds. in 4 years.

* 2004 was only yr Jevon broke 800yds. in 4 years. If Favre goes, will he bust?

* 2004 rookie year was only time Roy broke 800 yds,  very fragile.

ESTABLISHED STARTERS: (7):

Andre Johnson#, Santana Moss#, Plexico Burress#, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald#

# 2005 was only time in 3 years Andre didn't pass 800 or 900 yd markers.

# Santana didn't produce anything till 3rd year.

# Plex has been very inconsistent.

# Fitzy didn't break 800 yds last year, but broke out in his 2nd year.  Unproven over time, but very promising, and will be starter for coming years.

It should be noted that Roy Williams gets more hype than Andre as does Jevon and others in the "Jury Still Out" category.

WRs are VERY hard to pan, and take more time, and I encourage DRJ to read up or ask a GM to validate.  Further, here is the RB pic in the same time frame:

TOTAL BUSTS: (9):

Curtis Enis, Robert Edwards, John Avery, Ron Dayne, Trung Canidate,

Michael Bennett, William Green, TJ Duckett, Thomas Jones*

* TJones is on his 3rd team and probably won't hold off Benson in 06.  Look at his numbers, but he is the lone example of improvement after first 3 years.

JURY STILL OUT: (3):

Steven Jackson, Chris Perry, Kevin Jones

ESTABLISHED STARTERS: (11):

Warrick Dunn, Antowain Smith, Fred Taylor, Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams,

Jamal Lewis, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Deuce McAllister,

Willis McGahee, Larry Johnson.

Wow.  Lesson learned for DRJ.  RBs are far more successful and sooner.  I only used first rounders because they have the best shot by NFL pro consensus, which is why they went in the first round!

Game.  Set.  Match.   :football:
Not really sure of the point you are trying to make. If you're point is that RBs are more successful than WR in general..then you should be on the Kevin Jones bandwagon. If the concern is that very few good RBs regress after early success that isn't necessarily true. Check out the career numbers of Marshall Faulk, Jerome Bettis, Priest Holmes, Edgerrin James, John Riggins...they all stumbled early or some point in their careers to post huge numbers later on. You're reasoning and data behind the success of 1st round RBs in particular proves the point on why KJ is a better long-term dynasty prospect over Andre Johnson. Thanks for doing the legwork! :thumbup:
Exactly - and the only guys on that list that have been consistently great are Holt and Moss. Both of whom went off early in their career and it was obvious they were special.The rest of the "proven" starters, Andre included, have been wildly inconsistent throughout their careers. Mostly because he's using liberal criteria just so that he can get Andre on the list - criteria that would consider Koren Robinson and David Boston as "proven starters" 3 years into their careers. It would also have Hilliard as a "jury still out" in year 3 and a proven starter in year 4.

Basically, Andre has had plenty of time to prove he isn't a special WR. Even if KJ isn't special, a starting RB with some upside is worth more than that.

 
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Also, for all of those that want to pick and choose which statistic "count" for KJ, since he had a weak rush schedule at the end of 04, let's look at some of AJ's 04 stats under a microscope.

In 04, he had 6 games in which he got 80 yards or more. Let's see who those games were against. Detroit, KC, Oakland, Minnesota, Green Bay, NY Jets.

Where did those teams rank in defense? 20, 32, 30, 29, 25, and 14.

A bunch of bunk pass defenses.

He did catch a TD in 2 other games, but had 34 and 46 yards only in those games. Who were they? Tennessee and Jacksonville. Ranked 26 and 16 respectively.

I guess he doesn't do much against anything but bad teams either, eh?

 
Not really sure of the point you are trying to make. If you're point is that RBs are more successful than WR in general..then you should be on the Kevin Jones bandwagon. If the concern is that very few good RBs regress after early success that isn't necessarily true. Check out the career numbers of Marshall Faulk, Jerome Bettis, Priest Holmes, Edgerrin James, John Riggins...they all stumbled early or some point in their careers to post huge numbers later on. You're reasoning and data behind the success of 1st round RBs in particular proves the point on why KJ is a better long-term dynasty prospect over Andre Johnson. Thanks for doing the legwork! :thumbup:
wow. well, sib missed the point entirely. priest was undrafted, bettis changed teams but did well in STL and LA but was miscast, Edge never struggled, Riggins was in RBBC......know ur history!My proof was that KJ's time has most likely past, just like Kevan Barlow's has.

Andre will last longer, and has shown he BELONGS in the NFL as a starter, KJ has not.

I do submit, that DRJ's numbers have value, but do not change the validity of my arguement.

Hell...for the record, I own sib in our Dyno league two years running...hehe :yawn:

so...sorry to bring that hammer down, but my case is made, and history will prove me right, as I THREE-PEAT!!!!

 
Not really sure of the point you are trying to make. If you're point is that RBs are more successful than WR in general..then you should be on the Kevin Jones bandwagon. If the concern is that very few good RBs regress after early success that isn't necessarily true. Check out the career numbers of Marshall Faulk, Jerome Bettis, Priest Holmes, Edgerrin James, John Riggins...they all stumbled early or some point in their careers to post huge numbers later on.  You're reasoning and data behind the success of 1st round RBs in particular proves the point on why KJ is a better long-term dynasty prospect over Andre Johnson. Thanks for doing the legwork!  :thumbup:
wow. well, sib missed the point entirely. priest was undrafted, bettis changed teams but did well in STL and LA but was miscast, Edge never struggled, Riggins was in RBBC......know ur history!My proof was that KJ's time has most likely past, just like Kevan Barlow's has.

Andre will last longer, and has shown he BELONGS in the NFL as a starter, KJ has not.

I do submit, that DRJ's numbers have value, but do not change the validity of my arguement.

Hell...for the record, I own sib in our Dyno league two years running...hehe :yawn:

so...sorry to bring that hammer down, but my case is made, and history will prove me right, as I THREE-PEAT!!!!
I just don't think that you can discount KJ's rookie numbers. We can discount away the numbers of half of the players in the league if we want to play that game.He was one of the top RB's over the 2nd half of the season and proved that he can play at a high level in this league.

Last year, between getting dinged up a quite a bit, playing poorly, and having a coach that refused to feature him other than a couple of games he struggled. But you just can't close the door on this guy entirely. The fact that he's a very young RB with some good upside still makes him worth more than AJ by default in about 90% of the formats out there.

 
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Im not discounting 2004 as much as I am counting 2005........and especially the WAY he ran. I watched, and I thought he was tentitive and soft. Not a good sign in year 2.

Barracuda had more to say about 2004, but 2005 is where the train left the rails.

That is why there is a poll, we can agree to disagree.

 

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