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Another "Stand Your Ground" Case in FL...it's a tough one. Your thoughts? (1 Viewer)

eoMMan

Footballguy
I can see both sides in this one but I think the shooter should be charged with manslaughter.  Right before he shoots the guy, the guy (who was definitely wrong to push the shooter to the ground) started to turn away from the shooter.  At that point, he wasn't much of a threat to the shooter.  Also, he had no weapon on him.

http://abc13.com/florida-man-shot-and-killed-over-parking-spot/3800933/

(with video of shooting)

What are your thoughts on this one?

 
I don't fully understand the law but it doesn't look tough to me. The victim was moving away from the shooter before he was shot. Also, not sure how true it is (sometimes the initial story isn't totally accurate) but the report is that the shooter was verball assaulting the victims girlfriend and that caused the shove. So the shove might have been totally deserved. 

 
The second time this guy got into an argument over a handicapped spot? Yea, there's something off there - it seems like the shooter took it upon himself to be the handicapped parking police? 

 
From the story it seems an unnecessary confrontation and then an unnecessary escalation to deadly force. 

What I am gathering here is that the shooter is a bit of a self-appointed handicap parking enforcer.  Seems he may have confronted a woman in an angry manner.  The woman's boyfriend comes to her aid.  He was defending another, which is often allowed under the law.  Perhaps he went too far in laying his hands upon someone and shoving that person to the ground, even if that person was an obnoxious and offensive idiot, but a shove to the ground is not, generally, deadly force. ( I know, someone will show an example or two where it was, but as a general rule, no.)  To escalate that to a shooting, well this is not what the law was designed for.  A shield is now being used as a sword by someone purposely misusing the law.  I do not approve.

Now all of the foregoing is speculation based upon inferences from the story as written.  Facts may emerge to suggest otherwise.  I am commenting on the present scenario, the general concept of stand your ground, not insisting that this matter occurred as currently suggested.

 
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The second time this guy got into an argument over a handicapped spot? Yea, there's something off there - it seems like the shooter took it upon himself to be the handicapped parking police? 
While I do think we need more handicapped parking police, I don't endorse the death penalty for violations.

 
Does any of the videos have audio? I saw the one showing the shover backing away and getting shot, but without any audio context to help decide, it makes the shooter look much worse.

Having watched enough world star videos to say that the situation rarely seems to end with a simple shoving of someone.

 
Same race shooting...nobody cares.
I would.  Public executions precipitated by the shooter's own actions concern me, greatly, regardless of race.  Misuse of the law to justify executions without due process concern me.  Idiots, confrontational idiots with firearms concern me.

 
I would.  Public executions precipitated by the shooter's own actions concern me, greatly, regardless of race.  Misuse of the law to justify executions without due process concern me.  Idiots, confrontational idiots with firearms concern me.
So would I.  Meant this does not fit the criteria to be a big national news story.

 
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This isn't tough and this guy isn't even going to be charged.  I mentioned it in the PF.  What's not been mentioned by many is that this guy has been escorted off the premises by the police several times for harassing people.  Til this point, they just ignored him.  There's no question he was looking for the smallest window to be able to shoot someone IMO.  It's disgusting.

 
This isn't tough and this guy isn't even going to be charged.  I mentioned it in the PF.  What's not been mentioned by many is that this guy has been escorted off the premises by the police several times for harassing people.  Til this point, they just ignored him.  There's no question he was looking for the smallest window to be able to shoot someone IMO.  It's disgusting.
He may still get charged (i hope anyway) - that video doesn't show much self defense.

Hopefully, the civil suit ruins him. 

 
I would.  Public executions precipitated by the shooter's own actions concern me, greatly, regardless of race.  Misuse of the law to justify executions without due process concern me.  Idiots, confrontational idiots with firearms concern me.


This isn't tough and this guy isn't even going to be charged.  I mentioned it in the PF.  What's not been mentioned by many is that this guy has been escorted off the premises by the police several times for harassing people.  Til this point, they just ignored him.  There's no question he was looking for the smallest window to be able to shoot someone IMO.  It's disgusting.
Sure seems that way to me. They should press charges. That is ridiculous.

 
He may still get charged (i hope anyway) - that video doesn't show much self defense.

Hopefully, the civil suit ruins him. 
This is the angle being encouraged down here at the moment.  I don't know if it will fly, but there's hope.  Getting him on obvious murder 1 isn't going to happen even though it's plain as day.  Guy knew exactly what he was doing and exactly what the law would allow.  I might have a different view on this if I didn't know that he'd been removed from the premises several times for harassing others

 
I believe this D.A. or A.G. as the case may be owes the public an explanation of their decision.  Have they given one?

Actually the story says the non-charging decision lays with the County Sheriff.  My bad.  Poor reading comprehension by me.

 
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I don't think it's a "tough one" at all.  It's disgusting and he should definitely be charged.  They can then decide whether or not he's innocent or guilty.

 
LawyerGuys question: Is this grounds for 1st degree murder? I once saw on 20/20 or Dateline a case where a guy brought a gun to a confrontation he created "just in case" it was needed.  He ended up shooting and killing the guy when the guy he confronted got physical.  The prosecution claimed that because the gunman initiated the confrontation, he also premeditated that he would shoot to kill should this scenario play out as it did.

 
LawyerGuys question: Is this grounds for 1st degree murder? I once saw on 20/20 or Dateline a case where a guy brought a gun to a confrontation he created "just in case" it was needed.  He ended up shooting and killing the guy when the guy he confronted got physical.  The prosecution claimed that because the gunman initiated the confrontation, he also premeditated that he would shoot to kill should this scenario play out as it did.
There is case law that says premeditation can occur in the blink of an eye.  Now not always, but it can.

 
I believe this D.A. or A.G. as the case may be owes the public an explanation of their decision.  Have they given one?
It’s in the hands of the State Attorney’s Office now and I don’t think they’ve yet to make a decision.  The County Sheriff’s office declined to be the one to charge and pass it off to the state.  I think there’s a bit of gun shyness on the part of local PDs to go after this law and they’d rather the state take the heat 

 
####### wild wild west in our state.

Absolutely crazy he is not being charged with manslaughter. 

 
So he just camps a handicapped parking spot and waits to get in faces of violators?  Isn't that some pre meditation?

 
True. This is just the most extreme example I've seen. It looks like this dude has been planning this for awhile now. 
Zimmerman case wasn't all that different honestly there just wasn't any video.

ETA:  That didn't come out correctly...obviously video is a big deal.  From a social perspective they don't seem to be all that different

 
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LawyerGuys question: Is this grounds for 1st degree murder? I once saw on 20/20 or Dateline a case where a guy brought a gun to a confrontation he created "just in case" it was needed.  He ended up shooting and killing the guy when the guy he confronted got physical.  The prosecution claimed that because the gunman initiated the confrontation, he also premeditated that he would shoot to kill should this scenario play out as it did.
I think the argument would be that he did not initiate the confrontation.

 
I think there are guys who just want to get into a confrontation for the opportunity to shoot (or really scare the #### out of someone by pulling a gun out) someone.  I think this guy might be one of those type guys.  That being said....just from the video.....I kind of think the guy is, if the laws state that he has the right, in the right on this.  

ETA:  It's obviously horribly tragic and a real shame...and I'm not trying to be a gun rights "HE  GOT WHAT HE DESERVED FOR SHOVING HIM!!!" hardcase.

 
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if you read the florida statute, it has both a deadly and non deadly force provision.

here is the key;

If a defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law.

It is almost impossible to know what someone reasonably believes and for this reason, charging this individual with a crime may be a fruitless endeavor.  He will get on the stand and claim that he wasn't physical and was assaulted and was scared.  Seeing a video is one thing, knowing what he thought in that instance is another.

 
if you read the florida statute, it has both a deadly and non deadly force provision.

here is the key;

If a defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law.

It is almost impossible to know what someone reasonably believes and for this reason, charging this individual with a crime may be a fruitless endeavor.  He will get on the stand and claim that he wasn't physical and was assaulted and was scared.  Seeing a video is one thing, knowing what he thought in that instance is another.
Yes we can't know what he believed, but what he said he believed still has to be viewed as being reasonable by the rest of society.

There seems to me enough reason to think belief of deadly force wasn't reasonable here to let a jury decide the matter.

 
It’s in the hands of the State Attorney’s Office now and I don’t think they’ve yet to make a decision.  The County Sheriff’s office declined to be the one to charge and pass it off to the state.  I think there’s a bit of gun shyness on the part of local PDs to go after this law and they’d rather the state take the heat 
Excellent point. Let the State fight this. I believe he should be and will be charged. Let the jury decide. 

He pushed him down and backed up. The victim didn’t push him down and pounce or go in for an attack. 

If the assailant shuts his mouth then the victim likely walks away. I don’t believe the shooter had a reasonable expectation that his life was in danger. 

 
From the story it seems an unnecessary confrontation and then an unnecessary escalation to deadly force. 

What I am gathering here is that the shooter is a bit of a self-appointed handicap parking enforcer.  Seems he may have confronted a woman in an angry manner.  The woman's boyfriend comes to her aid.  He was defending another, which is often allowed under the law.  Perhaps he went too far in laying his hands upon someone and shoving that person to the ground, even if that person was an obnoxious and offensive idiot, but a shove to the ground is not, generally, deadly force. ( I know, someone will show an example or two where it was, but as a general rule, no.)  To escalate that to a shooting, well this is not what the law was designed for.  A shield is now being used as a sword by someone purposely misusing the law.  I do not approve.

Now all of the foregoing is speculation based upon inferences from the story as written.  Facts may emerge to suggest otherwise.  I am commenting on the present scenario, the general concept of stand your ground, not insisting that this matter occurred as currently suggested.
You sound like a prosecutor. 

 
I had forgotten this incident but the name made it come flooding back.
This case was a major focus in my crim law class in law school.  I left with the impression that it was an aberration/jury nullification. 

As a defense attorney, while I don't practice Florida law, I'd be nervous about taking this case to try and would conclude that the state could at least prove probable cause to obtain an indictment. 

 
Excellent point. Let the State fight this. I believe he should be and will be charged. Let the jury decide. 

He pushed him down and backed up. The victim didn’t push him down and pounce or go in for an attack. 

If the assailant shuts his mouth then the victim likely walks away. I don’t believe the shooter had a reasonable expectation that his life was in danger. 
I re-read the article.  The author, not intentionally, likely got this wrong by saying the Sheriff's Office declined charges.  Generally, whether to bring a case would normally/generally be up to the prosecutor agency such as a county attorney's or district attorney's office.  The state's attorney general could probably "pick them up" as well. 

I say this because I find it's incredibly unlikely the sheriff wouldn't have, at the very least, "referred" the case to the assigned prosecuting agency for a review.  In other words, it's a very easy and legitimate buck to pass here and the sheriff shouldn't look bad at all since the matter was caught on video and presumably they did at least a half-decent job interviewing witnesses and documenting those interviews. 

 
http://www.kvoa.com/story/38711830/florida-man-could-avoid-charges-in-fatal-shooting-because-of-stand-your-ground-law

The law's been changed recently.

(CNN) - Florida's "stand your ground" law could save a man from prosecution after he fatally shot another man following a heated argument over a parking space at a convenience store.

The shooting took place Thursday after Britany Jacobs, 24, parked in a handicapped-accessible spot at the Circle A Food Store in Clearwater, according to a news release from the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office.

Sheriff's detectives said Michael Drejka, 47, approached Jacobs while her boyfriend Markeis McGlockton, and the couple's 5-year-old son, Markeis Jr., went into the store. Drejka and Jacobs began arguing about her parking in the handicapped parking space.

Witnesses told police that McGlockton came outside, walked over to Drejka while he was arguing and "forcibly pushed" Drejka, causing him to fall.

"This is a violent push, this wasn't a shove, this wasn't just a tap," Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri said during a Friday press conference.

In response, the news release stated, Drejka pulled out a handgun while he was on the ground and shot McGlockton in the chest.

"Witnesses say McGlockton walked back into the convenient store where he collapsed," the release stated. He was taken to a hospital where he died.

Drejka was cooperative with deputies, the release said. He had a valid Florida concealed weapons license, it added. The statement did not indicate whether Jacobs' car had a handicapped sticker.

Sheriff Gualtieri said the only relevant issue is whether Drejka was in fear of further bodily harm from McGlockton.

"He felt, after being slammed to the ground, that the next thing was that he was going to be further attacked by McGlockton," Gualtieri said, adding that the time between Drejka hitting the ground and shooting was about four to five seconds.

Efforts by CNN over two days to contact Drejka were not successful.

A change in the law

The framework of Florida's 'stand your ground' law was changed this year, Gualtieri said. Before, the defendant/shooter used "stand your ground" as a defense and had to prove they were in fear of further body harm, the law now says the state attorney has to provide "clear and convincing evidence" that the defendant/shooter is not entitled to "stand your ground" immunities.

"Nowhere else is there anything like this in criminal law where somebody asserts something and the burden then shifts to the other person," Gualtieri said. "That's a very heavy standard and it puts the burden on the state."

Gualtieri said the case will go to the state attorney. Meanwhile, "Drejka will not be charged, will not be arrested by us ... either (the state attorney) will concur or not and if he concurs, there will be no arrest."

A spokeswoman for the Florida state attorney in Clearwater told CNN Monday that the office had not yet gotten the case from the sheriff's department but would investigate the shooting once the case is received.

In his remarks Friday, the sheriff added that while others can debate the law as it applies in this incident, "I just ask everybody to understand ... I don't make the law. But I will enforce the law and I will enforce it fairly as the legislature has directed that it be enforced. And under these circumstances, this fits within the framework that the Florida Legislature has crafted."

'It shouldn't be right'

But Jacobs, McGlockton's girlfriend, told CNN affiliate WFLA-TV she thought Drejka was wrong.

"It shouldn't be right because he came approaching me and all Markeis did was try to protect us and protect this family and it's wrong because he shot fire in front of my son," she said.

Gualtieri says there's no evidence that Drejka posed a threat to McGlockton's family, it was strictly a verbal argument, but McGlockton did engage in unlawful conduct when he pushed Drejka.

"Markeis wouldn't be dead if Markeis didn't slam this guy to the ground," Gualtieri said.
I'm not a fan of this Gualtieri guy, but the law is the law. I'm guessing no arrest coming.

 
Was the shooter white? That last interview points to yes. If so, the shooter is even more likely to get off with a slap on the wrist at most. 

 
Before the recent change, this guy gets charged and convicted, IMO.  With the new law (the law now says the state attorney has to provide "clear and convincing evidence" that the defendant/shooter is not entitled to "stand your ground" immunities) it makes it questionable.  Although the video is pretty clear that the guy was not in any further danger, it will be hard to get all 12 jurors on that same page, so I would guess a hung jury as the most likely outcome.  Unlike Zimmerman which was railroaded by the media and the feds, this case should go to court based on this video evidence.   

 
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Was the shooter white? That last interview points to yes. If so, the shooter is even more likely to get off with a slap on the wrist at most. 
Well if the shooter were black ... you know they'd be riots in the streets of Aspen right now for not placing him under arrest.

Seems to me the shooter made the guy pay for hurting his feelings.

I bet the pusher (now dead guy) didn't expect the gun guy to fall over. Was a "get the f out of here" type of shove.

The fatty with the gun made it seem a lot worse than it was by being extraordinarily top heavy and having zero balance. 

Shooter sat on the ground, butt hurt, and took out his frustrations. "That'll teach him. Bet he'll think twice before shoving somebody next time ... from the grave."

Maybe the shooter can help raise the 5 year old boy that watched his father die on the floor of the store. Or at least start a "go fund me" to buy the kid some therapy.

 
Thunderlips said:
I think there are guys who just want to get into a confrontation for the opportunity to shoot (or really scare the #### out of someone by pulling a gun out) someone.  I think this guy might be one of those type guys.  That being said....just from the video.....I kind of think the guy is, if the laws state that he has the right, in the right on this.  

ETA:  It's obviously horribly tragic and a real shame...and I'm not trying to be a gun rights "HE  GOT WHAT HE DESERVED FOR SHOVING HIM!!!" hardcase.
You're spot on.  What happened is exactly allowed by the laws here.  There is some commentary to be had around the guy and his actions, but the main focus here should be the ###### up laws that enable jackholes like this POS.  It is really disgusting to hear the politicians down here defending what happened.  It makes me want to go to Tallahassee and punch them all in the neck.

 
The shove was not needed there &, obviously, neither was the other guy drawing his weapon, forget about pulling the trigger. More idiots

 

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