Anyone Hearing From Fantasy Jungle Contest?

[Team Legacy]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

Joe, I disagree. This is why gaming, lottery, prize and sweepstakes etc, have such HUGE restrictions placed on their business models. For some reason, Fantasy Football is not in this category, yet we can agree that they're very similar in nature. They all use PRIZES as the carrot. When you don't deliver on the prize, this is a TOTALLY different ballpark than the scenario you proposed and subject to strict consequences by State Attorney Generals.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

 

[CBower4545]

I've sent an email to the fantasy jungle guys. Hopefully they'll respond.

And to be consistent, this thread won't stay in the Shark Pool for long. Just like the AFFL thread, the SP is for NFL news and opinions. Not to vent complaints about other companies. It'll move to another forum on the Footballguys board soon as we did the AFFL thread.

Hopefully we'll hear something soon. Does indeed suck to win and not get paid.

J

Joe,I have to disagree with you again on this as I did in the AFFL thread. Burying this thread in a forum that receives very little traffic does a disservice to the fantasy community.

-Ken

Thanks for the feedback. We had that discussion on the AFFL and I'm exactly where I was then. Just as it was with the AFFL thread, the Shark Pool isn't a forum to complain about bad experiences with companies. Whether it's an online league hosting that goes down. Or bad draft software or whatever. Never has been and never will. It's a very tight focus of NFL News and Opinion and Fantasy Football strategy. As I said, I've sent messages to the fantasy jungle owners. This thread can stay here for a bit but it will move just like the AFFL thread to a forum where it doesn't go against the pretty narrow focus of what the forum is. That is not "burying" anything. That's allowing Shark Pool topics to stay in the Shark Pool. And removing ones that are not Shark Pool topics. I understand you disagree.J

I agree with Ken. Moving it a forum that the vast majority of the fantasy football community here is not going to see is burying it, regardless of the definitions of what belong in each forum. The greater community is served more by the threads being in the Shark Pool.

Letting fantasy owners know situation like these will help FBG members save money and enjoy fantasy football more. I certainly appreciate some of the threads on these matters that have been dug out by other members.

 

[aerolaw]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

One other footnote that i think should be added...the Fantasy Jungle owners played in at least 2 high stakes contests themselves, that i know of...WCOFF and FFPC. I guess they didnt win the grand prize!

 

[Team Legacy]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

One other footnote that i think should be added...the Fantasy Jungle owners played in at least 2 high stakes contests themselves, that i know of...WCOFF and FFPC. I guess they didnt win the grand prize!

No but apparently, their way into those contests was paid and paved on the backs of the winners not paid.NO EXCUSE for this behavior, not one. I hope they get this message loud and clear and forever stay out of this business.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Actually, I see the Circuit City analogy. It's like I bought a gift card knowing I had $X of money to spend and then they go out of business and my card is no good. They weren't running a scam or stealing my money, but the end result of their business failings is my money is in jeopardy. So I'm very glad I got to see this in the Shark Pool, because I probably would have missed it anywhere else.

I visit some message boards where people search for sales and deals at various stores and sites. Even though it's not exactly in line with the board's purpose, I'd definitely appreciate a thread warning me about buying Circuit City gift cards or relating that my gift cards might not be honored now, and how we have to be careful about buying gift cards in general because you might lose that money.

So again, I'm glad it was allowed to be here for awhile. Hope everyone who has something coming to them gets it.

 

[Team Legacy]

Actually, I see the Circuit City analogy. It's like I bought a gift card knowing I had $X of money to spend and then they go out of business and my card is no good.

Neil, it's MORE akin to this:You're approached by a charity that helps terminally ill kids, like Make a Wish. They tell you the funds will sit in a gift fund and then allocated to the children. They even tell you who your money will help. Little Johnny, who was born with a rare brain disorder, all he's ever wanted was to meet his hero, The Rock. You're so moved to participate, you give $1,500 and the prize is so gratifying. You helped where others ignored.They grab your check, deposit it gleefully, and you wait to hear back. Lil Johnny sits and waits to meet the Rock. 6 months pass and the visit with the Rock is almost here. The phone rings. "Yes, hi, yes, you gave us the $1,500 so Little Johnny could meet his hero The Rock? Yes, I'm sorry, we can't help Little Johnny's dream come true." You can't? Okay, just give me my money back, I'll help another way. "Sir, we're bankrupt." Bankrupt? What did you do with my money? "Sir, we spent it on other stuff, I'm very sorry. We're going bankrupt." Well, what about Little Johnny? "I'm sorry sir. He gets nothing. You can sue us if you want, but we've spent all the money, I promise we have." You have? "Yes, I promise I didn't give it to some software guy in a back-handed shady transaction where it's covered up in the books. It's legit, see here."There are laws that govern fundraising as well as contests. It's not justified and the money was irresponsibly spent and should never have been touched in the first place. ETHICS is the first word that comes to mind.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me. The one thing I'm certain of is that a business that fails trying to run their business in an honest way is vastly different from a business that sets out to scam people. Seeing people instantly jump to the conclusion that any business is scamming when in reality they've just failed as a business is something I try to be very careful with.And again, as far as any "service" goes, there is none here. These people are not open for business. Nobody will save any money by reading a thread here and not paying them as they aren't taking any money. In reality, this is a thread to vent and to pile on. Again, we have other forums where that works better.J

 

[Joe Bryant]

There are laws that govern fundraising as well as contests.

Exactly. And if it comes to that, those laws will I'm sure be used. That's pretty much what they're for.J

 

[Dreamer]

I think threads like these should be pinned in the FFA. For the greater good.

 

[Team Legacy]

I think threads like these should be pinned in the FFA. For the greater good.

Agreed. Those that play for Fantasy XYZ, may never hear about this type of thing buried in the Looking for Leagues, because they're not LOOKING for leagues. They're happy with the one they have, until Fantasy XYZ tries to pull a fiasco like this. Then, they'd wish they had heard about this so they could begin to question what Fantasy XYZ is doing to combat this scenario.I think from Joe's perspective, and I haven't heard him say this, but if I were Joe, I'd be slightly concerned that this isn't good for fantasy business in general. It sure can't help his business, from a marketing perspective, unless of course, he felt very strongly about it, left it in the public limelight here in the FFA, and felt that by providing the information, people would deem FBG so valuable, they couldn't live without it. Hey, that sounds like good marketing to me!

 

[Team Legacy]

As a side note: I think this discussion definitely falls into the Fantasy Football Strategy discussion. It is poor strategy to play in events that don't pay and to look for characteristics in contests that fall into this same category, ie: paying late for one. I know that was the big indicator for AFFL the year they went under, their payments the previous year were months behind deadline.

 

[phillyphan07]

I think the difference between the circuit city/fantasy jungle scenarios is simple.

Circuit city is a middle man between Sony and Consumers. There are a lot of things beyond Circuit City's control that effect how well they can deliver TVs to consumers and money to Sony. In this system all the money is made (by markup) or lost (by overhead) in the middle man step.

Sony knows exactly how much the TVs cost to make and ship and therefore they know exactly how much to charge.

The consumers know what they're getting (a nice TV) and what they're giving up for it (cash).

Circuit City doesn't know exactly how much their overhead is going to be, so they have to guess how much they should sell that TV for. If they sell the TVs quickly (i.e. they don't have to pay to store the TV for months on end and they don't have to pay salespeople even though they aren't selling anything... etc...) they make a lot of money. If the TVs sit there, they lose money.

Well for a fantasy football contest there should only be two people in the supply and demand chain. Fantasy Jungle should know exactly what they are paying out and how much that is going to cost. Therefore they should know exactly how much to charge.

The cosumers know exactly what they are paying for (the contest) and exactly what they are getting back (a chance to win money).

There are basically two ways Fantasy Jungle could have messed this up.

They miscalculated how much to charge (so they're incompetent)

or

They put a middle man in there. Maybe they put the money in the stock market or some other investment. Maybe they used it for another reason and thought they would be able to pay it back.

Either way, they violated the original idea. There is no way they are a victim here. They messed up and they're probably going to get away with it. I'm kind of amazed that people think their local district attorney is going to run after these guys. First of all, a few grand is nothing for a white collar, non-violent crime. Second of all, just proving this case is within their jurisdiction would be tough (is Fantasy Jungle incorporated somewhere? if so, is it even in the U.S.?)

I feel bad for guys that lost money here, but maybe the lesson is that you shouldnt be sending money to anyone over the internet....

 

[bentley]

Joe,

I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.

J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.

J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me.

The one thing I'm certain of is that a business that fails trying to run their business in an honest way is vastly different from a business that sets out to scam people. Seeing people instantly jump to the conclusion that any business is scamming when in reality they've just failed as a business is something I try to be very careful with.

And again, as far as any "service" goes, there is none here. These people are not open for business. Nobody will save any money by reading a thread here and not paying them as they aren't taking any money. In reality, this is a thread to vent and to pile on. Again, we have other forums where that works better.

J

Here's the problem. It's entirely possible, like the AFFL mess, that the contest name or these guys will be back in the summer selling a football contest. And the community should know that something fishy has happened before. In a perfect world, this thread would be informational and there would be a separate FFA thread debating bad business vs. stealing. Of course, that's likely impossible so you'll have to do what you have to do. Which is unfortunate.

 

[Ozymandias]

I think the difference between the circuit city/fantasy jungle scenarios is simple.

Circuit city is a middle man between Sony and Consumers. There are a lot of things beyond Circuit City's control that effect how well they can deliver TVs to consumers and money to Sony. In this system all the money is made (by markup) or lost (by overhead) in the middle man step.

Sony knows exactly how much the TVs cost to make and ship and therefore they know exactly how much to charge.

The consumers know what they're getting (a nice TV) and what they're giving up for it (cash).

Circuit City doesn't know exactly how much their overhead is going to be, so they have to guess how much they should sell that TV for. If they sell the TVs quickly (i.e. they don't have to pay to store the TV for months on end and they don't have to pay salespeople even though they aren't selling anything... etc...) they make a lot of money. If the TVs sit there, they lose money.

Well for a fantasy football contest there should only be two people in the supply and demand chain. Fantasy Jungle should know exactly what they are paying out and how much that is going to cost. Therefore they should know exactly how much to charge.

The cosumers know exactly what they are paying for (the contest) and exactly what they are getting back (a chance to win money).

There are basically two ways Fantasy Jungle could have messed this up.

They miscalculated how much to charge (so they're incompetent)

or

They put a middle man in there. Maybe they put the money in the stock market or some other investment. Maybe they used it for another reason and thought they would be able to pay it back.

It wouldn't be the first time that someone saw a pile of cash and decided to make an investment, assuming that the investment would give them a nice return, and then they could release the cash; bingo! free money.

 

[Tirnan]

I seem to be the voice of dissent. I'm with Joe on moving this after a bit. I agree with everyone that it is an important and relevant FFL news blurb, but its not the cut and dried football info I come to the Shark Pool for. The FFA seems like a better long term host for the thread or the join a league forums.

I am sympathetic to those who lost and agree that the word should get out. I just want my Shark Pool to stay clean enough that I can mine out the data I am looking for. Now if these guys start selling contests again before they clean up this mess, then I have no heartburn with a well intended warning placed in the Shark Pool again for a few days or a few weeks.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Leroy's Aces]

After what occurred last year with the Neil Wickham and the "contest that shall not be named" ponzi-scheming $475,000 of their customers' money, myself and a number of fellow high stakes players called upon other high stakes contests to escrow their prize funds and PROVE that they had the prize money allocated properly and it was safe. Not a single one listened or directly responded even to the repeated requests. In large part due to this, the Fantasy Football Players Championship was formed last year. We are the only contest that escrows our prize money. I am not here to pimp our contest, but instead to comment on how it does a real disservice to players is that no one else does it. I find what has happened in the past with Neil and his fiasco and untruths with $800K in "programming" expenses to be deplorable, and the ultimate breech of player trust.

In my opinion, until the fantasy contest pays their winners, the fantasy contest HAS NOT ACTUALLY PROVIDED THE PRODUCT. I am still owed money by a prominent national contest BY THE WAY (it is not the NFFC - they promptly paid every penny owed) Some bogus excuse 2 weeks ago about not having the proper forms, which I had personally faxed over in early January. It is March freaking 10th.

I am not sure I agree with Joe's assertion that a failed Circuit City and a failed fantasy contest are the same. There are similarities, but a contest knows EXACTLY what it's revenue and future payout liabilities are PRIOR to the contest actually beginning in week 1. If you do not have the cash or entrants to pay the guaranteed prizes, cancel the contest and refund the money. A contest has a firm knowledge of what 98% of revenues are going to be by September 5th and a firm knowledge of what 100% of liabilities to prize winners are going to be, too. The prize money should NEVER be used for operating expenses. It is so ridiculously easy to know precisely what is going to be owed to prize winners at the end of the year.

It is also my understanding from a significant number of fantasy players that Mike and Scott at the Jungle are straight up guys (unlike Neil and the contest that shall not be named), and I truly wish them the best in resolving the current issues they are having with payouts.

It is actually great for us as fantasy players to have a company like Football Guys that you can tell has players' interests in mind. They are not just out to make money, but want to grow their site and fantasy football as a whole, and continue to provide a superior product and this outstanding message board community. Whether it is the correct forum or not, people are being made aware of these issues thanks to the community that Joe Bryant, David Dodds and the rest of the staff have assembled throughout the years. (full disclosure: we advertised with FBG last year)

David Gerczak

Co-Founder

The Fantasy Football Players Championship

 

[BassNBrew]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me. The one thing I'm certain of is that a business that fails trying to run their business in an honest way is vastly different from a business that sets out to scam people. Seeing people instantly jump to the conclusion that any business is scamming when in reality they've just failed as a business is something I try to be very careful with.And again, as far as any "service" goes, there is none here. These people are not open for business. Nobody will save any money by reading a thread here and not paying them as they aren't taking any money. In reality, this is a thread to vent and to pile on. Again, we have other forums where that works better.J

J, nothing personal because you guys have always run a first class operation, but this makes me leary of any long term comittment with any fantasy football site. With the economy tanking, one must ask themselves if a business selling 3 year memberships is using the money to cover this year's expenses in hopes of growing a base that will cover expenses in years two and three. Personally I think FBG should be a strong voice in the industry leading the way in exposing frauds when they come to light and using it's voice in the industry to imporve contests. Like it or not, you have a vested interest in people playing in and trusting their money in these types of contests as well as this hobby not becoming tarnished. Similiar to great atheletes, you may not want the title of role model, but sometimes that comes along with the recognition of being the leader in an industry.

 

[Winston Wolfe]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me. The one thing I'm certain of is that a business that fails trying to run their business in an honest way is vastly different from a business that sets out to scam people. Seeing people instantly jump to the conclusion that any business is scamming when in reality they've just failed as a business is something I try to be very careful with.And again, as far as any "service" goes, there is none here. These people are not open for business. Nobody will save any money by reading a thread here and not paying them as they aren't taking any money. In reality, this is a thread to vent and to pile on. Again, we have other forums where that works better.J

J, nothing personal because you guys have always run a first class operation, but this makes me leary of any long term comittment with any fantasy football site. With the economy tanking, one must ask themselves if a business selling 3 year memberships is using the money to cover this year's expenses in hopes of growing a base that will cover expenses in years two and three. Personally I think FBG should be a strong voice in the industry leading the way in exposing frauds when they come to light and using it's voice in the industry to imporve contests. Like it or not, you have a vested interest in people playing in and trusting their money in these types of contests as well as this hobby not becoming tarnished. Similiar to great atheletes, you may not want the title of role model, but sometimes that comes along with the recognition of being the leader in an industry.

Bass,As a former staff member, I can say without hesitation that Joe and David have a very firm grasp of how to run a successful and profitable business and were never in this to make a quick score. David is a gunslinger and likes to shoot from the hip. Joe will not make a decision without first beating it like a dead horse. Neither of them will make a decision without the other approving. They are a very good pairing. Unless things have changed in the past four years, you can rest assured that FBGs is around for the long haul.-Ken

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

It is also my understanding from a significant number of fantasy players that Mike and Scott at the Jungle are straight up guys (unlike Neil and the contest that shall not be named), and I truly wish them the best in resolving the current issues they are having with payouts.

How can they be considered "straight up guys" if they use prize money for operating expenses? That money wasn't theirs to use any way other than paying out winners. People shouldn't start a business without appropriate capital, meaning having their own cash, not mine.

 

[fatness]

Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.

A top-down picture like that isn't comparable. Here's one that's more comparable.Customer: I want to buy that refrigerator in blue.

Lowes: We can order the blue one for you. It'll be here in 2 weeks.

Customer: OK, here is my money.

** 4 weeks later **

Customer: Where is my refrigerator?

Lowes: We don't have it.

Customer: OK, give me my money back.

Lowes: We don't have it.

Companies like Sony do not not invest in playing fantasy football. Fantasy football players are individual and are more akin to Lowe's customers. If they're getting ripped off they'll look for consumer sites on which to discuss the problem and looks for solutions other consumers might have to getting their money back, warning others, etc. This is a consumer site.

As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this.

Guessing at intentions really does not matter since they cannot be known. What is known is that customers paid money, and what was promised was not delivered. The customers are also customers of this site, which features discussion of fantasy football.



"Looking For Leagues

League openings and people looking for leagues. "

That description does not fit the situation. Customers are losing thousands of dollars. Giving the business owners the benefit of the doubt and putting the topic in that forum does a disservice to the fantasy football customers who come here, many of whom will never see the topic and will miss being warned and miss people finding successful ways to recoup their losses. There are no bad intentions on your part, but putting topics like this (this will not be the last fantasy league to fold and take people's money in this economy) in an obscure forum is a bad business decision for your customers. Think bottom-up.

 

[aerolaw]

It is also my understanding from a significant number of fantasy players that Mike and Scott at the Jungle are straight up guys (unlike Neil and the contest that shall not be named), and I truly wish them the best in resolving the current issues they are having with payouts.

How can they be considered "straight up guys" if they use prize money for operating expenses? That money wasn't theirs to use any way other than paying out winners. People shouldn't start a business without appropriate capital, meaning having their own cash, not mine.

UPDATE-their whole website is down now. Sorry to be repetitive, but running 2 postseason contests and playing in at least 2 high stakes leagues themselves (i think their WCOFF team was even named FaantasyJungle.com) just makes me nauseous. Their college bowl contest had 160 entries at $50 an entry, and only had a prize pool of $3000, and they cant even pay that, and take their $5000 profit.This really proves that no matter how honorable a business has been in the past, there is no guarantee of future performance. I wouldnt even trust WCOFF now despite their track record. You have to be nuts to play any high stakes contest without proven escrowed funds.

 

[Fighting Noles]

Joe & Others - I really feel that the Shark Pool is EXACTLY the place for this kind of topic to be posted. As a long time participant in High Stakes Leagues, this is precisely the kind of information I feel only Football Guys (by virtue of the sheer traffic volume in the Shark Pool) is able to provide me & quite honestly one of the main reasons I've continued to Subscribe to the Site. The Shark Pool gets most Fantasy Football News out faster than anywhere else & I DEFINITELY feel a High Stakes FF Contest closing/not paying its customers ( I was lucky enough to cash in the Jungle in 2007 & drafted against them in the NFFC in 2007 also), is EXTREMELY news worthy of THIS forum. Quite honestly, I would have never seen this in another forum & you guys may have just saved me a bunch of money in the future, thereby earning even more loyalty from me as a paying subscriber (as well as more "good word of mouth" PR for FG).

I really hope that you would just "weed out" what you may consider "excessive" bashing/whining in a post like this but PLEASE leave these types of posts in the Shark Pool. I know I for one REALLY appreciate it....

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me. The one thing I'm certain of is that a business that fails trying to run their business in an honest way is vastly different from a business that sets out to scam people. Seeing people instantly jump to the conclusion that any business is scamming when in reality they've just failed as a business is something I try to be very careful with.And again, as far as any "service" goes, there is none here. These people are not open for business. Nobody will save any money by reading a thread here and not paying them as they aren't taking any money. In reality, this is a thread to vent and to pile on. Again, we have other forums where that works better.J

J, nothing personal because you guys have always run a first class operation, but this makes me leary of any long term comittment with any fantasy football site. With the economy tanking, one must ask themselves if a business selling 3 year memberships is using the money to cover this year's expenses in hopes of growing a base that will cover expenses in years two and three. Personally I think FBG should be a strong voice in the industry leading the way in exposing frauds when they come to light and using it's voice in the industry to imporve contests. Like it or not, you have a vested interest in people playing in and trusting their money in these types of contests as well as this hobby not becoming tarnished. Similiar to great atheletes, you may not want the title of role model, but sometimes that comes along with the recognition of being the leader in an industry.

Bass,As a former staff member, I can say without hesitation that Joe and David have a very firm grasp of how to run a successful and profitable business and were never in this to make a quick score. David is a gunslinger and likes to shoot from the hip. Joe will not make a decision without first beating it like a dead horse. Neither of them will make a decision without the other approving. They are a very good pairing. Unless things have changed in the past four years, you can rest assured that FBGs is around for the long haul.-Ken

Thanks for the kind words Ken. Not much has changed there in how David and I operate. And Bass, I do think I fully understand our role there. As I said, that's why this thread has stayed in a forum where it doesn't belong for this long. This forum is clearly about NFL News and Strategy. Always has been. Not piling on businesses that have failed or websites that aren't living up to promises. We have forums for that but long term, the Shark Pool is not that. Sorry. I'm OK with letting folks vent here for a while on it. But I wanted to give people the headsup that this one doesn't fit into the Shark Pool parameters. I've had a thousand discussions over the years with people angry that their non NFL News / Strategy thread was moved. We struggle enough with inconsistencies as it is. I don't need to start doign things that I know are inconsistent like changing the rules for what we allow here.J

 

[renesauz]

Joe,

I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.

J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.

J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me.

J

Sorry Joe...your analogy is failing. If the TV's are unsold...they can go back! I can't see contests like this as equivalent to a store. There are differant types of businesses, those that provide goods, and those that provide services. Those that provide (short-term) services should never be in position of potential default.Folks who sent money were paying for a service. Sony was a business partner when they sent the TV's. Sony also has some direct means to recoup at least part of thier losses should the business fail (take the TV's back and sell them elsewhere.)

FWIW...I also believe exceptions should be made to keep threads like this in the SP. Something like this has the potential to have a far-reaching effect on the hobby we all love.

 

[Genester]

Joe & Others - I really feel that the Shark Pool is EXACTLY the place for this kind of topic to be posted. I know I for one REALLY appreciate it....

Ditto. This belongs in the SharkPool.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me. J

Sorry Joe...your analogy is failing. If the TV's are unsold...they can go back!

Of course. I'm talking about TVs that are sold by CC but then not paid for.J

 

[PatsWillWin]

Joe,I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me. J

Sorry Joe...your analogy is failing. If the TV's are unsold...they can go back!

Of course. I'm talking about TVs that are sold by CC but then not paid for.J

So just to be clear, you think it's expected and okay that these companies use the tournament money to pay for other business expenses?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm open to listening to the people that want this in the Shark Pool. I'd ask though where is the line?

Are threads talking about CBS Sportsline's live scoring being down Shark Pool material? How about the commissioner of my league won't pay out the prize money? How about brand X website's projections suck and cost me the game? None of those are remotely close to what we've done with the SP forever. The SP is a place to discuss NFL News and FF Strategy.

If you want to make this a public service forum, are you ok with people posting their charity event stuff? Is it ok to fill the Shark Pool with threads about bad experiences you've had buying football tickets on Ebay? If so, how about bad experiences buying music concert tickets on Ebay? Bad experiences buying jerseys from the sporting goods store in your town? Where is the line?

Is there a line to how many people must be affected before it's ok here? We've said repeatedly that Fantasy Jungle is closed and is not taking any new customers. There is no one reading this that will be saved from spending any money. This is purely a venting thread. Mostly by people who lost no money at all in the deal. It's the classic "pile on". We have the same exact threads in the FFA railing on whoever is the chosen company / person to rail on for the day. But that's sort of what the FFA does. That's never been what the Shark Pool does.

I'm willing to listen to arguments about why a company that appears to be out of business should have their own thread in a forum with a very narrow focus of NFL News and Strategy. But I'd like to hear where you guys see the line being.

J

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe,

I agree that discussion of sites people are "unhappy with" should be beyond the bounds. But I think "stolen from" is a bit different (as it relates to AFFL and what may or may not have happened here).

I think one has to be very careful in accusing a business of "stealing". A creditor that is unpaid by an honest business that fails and goes out is very different than a scam business that steals. Circuit City I'm sure has creditors they owe. It sucks big time to be one of those creditors. But I'm hesitant to say Circuit City stole from them.

J

I'm not sure these situations are comparable. I think creditors, while they certainly expect to be repaid, understand the situation - CC will pay them back with revenue they get from selling their products. There's an inherent, and understood, risk in that and I don't think these fantasy sites are in the same boat. They are supposed to use the money that goes into the pool for anything except paying off the winners of that pool. I could be wrong though, I've never played on any of these sites...but generally, isn't the money to run their business supposed to come from the fees? The money for the pool should go into the pool, and that's it. Using the pool money on other things, hoping that they'll have more money from other pools in the future to pay it back just sounds like a scam imo.

I really think that the situations are the same. Sony sends 10,000 TVs to a Circuit City store and they have the same expectaion of being paid for those TVs as someone does who sends a contest money and expects to be paid when they win. They're both businesses. And the harsh fact is that lots of businesses are failing right now and unable to meet the obligations they owe.As I said, I don't know these folks at all and I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt but from what little I know, it doesn't at all appear to be a scam situation. It appears to be a business that is struggling. They stand to lose a ton on this. If they don't pay, they'll be sued I'm sure. They lose big time in that. The last thing they want is for it go down that road. It seems to me that they want nothing more than to pay everyone and resolve this. That's not what a scam business does. Again, I don't know them and I could be reading it wrong, but that's what it appears like to me.

J

These participants aren't creditors. They aren't capital investors. They are paying for a service, and part of that service is to gather and hold tournament money, and release it after the tournament is over.I guess it comes down to this: either you think it's okay for them to use the prize money for other business expesnes and just cross their fingers that you get enough money from the next tournament to pay off the winners of the one before, or you don't. Personally, I don't, but maybe that's how these things operate. If it is, I can't see how this kind of business, FJC, AFFL, or otherwise can survive...if participants in a tournament are only going to get paid for their tournament if entrees for the NEXT tournament are good, you'd have to be a complete moron to sign up.

This is exactly why this should be a FFA or Assitant Coach discussion. We're onto debating the definition of creditors and ethics of bankrupt businesses. That's a VERY worthwhile discussion to have. But it's far from what we've said the topics in the Shark Pool will be.But on that point, we can just disagree. People paid money with expectation they'd be paid if they won. That's the reason they sent money. Sony sent TVs with the expectation they'd be paid for the TVs. That's the reason they sent them. I'm sure that may not wash through a legal class. But it seems pretty clear to me.

J

Sorry Joe...your analogy is failing. If the TV's are unsold...they can go back!

Of course. I'm talking about TVs that are sold by CC but then not paid for.J

So just to be clear, you think it's expected and okay that these companies use the tournament money to pay for other business expenses?

Why would you ever think that's "expected" or "okay"? I think it's a very similar thing to Circuit City selling TVs retail and not paying the debt they owe to the TV manufacturer. I don't know anyone who would think that either one of those are "expected" or "okay".J

 

[Fighting Noles]

I'm open to listening to the people that want this in the Shark Pool. I'd ask though where is the line? Are threads talking about CBS Sportsline's live scoring being down Shark Pool material? How about the commissioner of my league won't pay out the prize money? How about brand X website's projections suck and cost me the game? None of those are remotely close to what we've done with the SP forever. The SP is a place to discuss NFL News and FF Strategy. If you want to make this a public service forum, are you ok with people posting their charity event stuff? Is it ok to fill the Shark Pool with threads about bad experiences you've had buying football tickets on Ebay? If so, how about bad experiences buying music concert tickets on Ebay? Bad experiences buying jerseys from the sporting goods store in your town? Where is the line?Is there a line to how many people must be affected before it's ok here? We've said repeatedly that Fantasy Jungle is closed and is not taking any new customers. There is no one reading this that will be saved from spending any money. This is purely a venting thread. Mostly by people who lost no money at all in the deal. It's the classic "pile on". We have the same exact threads in the FFA railing on whoever is the chosen company / person to rail on for the day. But that's sort of what the FFA does. That's never been what the Shark Pool does.I'm willing to listen to arguments about why a company that appears to be out of business should have their own thread in a forum with a very narrow focus of NFL News and Strategy. But I'd like to hear where you guys see the line being.J

Joe - You clearly feel strongly about this and while I definitely respect your opinion (especially considering how you've built this site and THIS FORUM) and obviously know you are the final answer on this, I really don't see the similarities between the examples you've listed above and the possible closing of a High Stakes FANTASY FOOTBALL contest. Someones' local commish not paying is not the equal of a National Contest not paying its contestants (many of whom I know are members here). Although, a question regarding other players past handling of a commish not paying their local is more relevant than some of the posts I've seen here. The E-Bay music tickets (or Football) or "charity event" or Jerseys AREN'T FANTASY FOOTBALL related, so its an Apples/Oranges comparison. Plus, the statement that "noone reading this thread will be saved any future money" is something that is impossible for you (or anyone) to know at this time. MANY times, companies (same/similar owners) REOPEN under a different name or Corp.(or Similar Name, slightly different format or partner with another contest) and without this info. there is no way we'd know anything had gone wrong in the past. Lastly, often people may be on vacation or "swamped" at work and unable to read/see a thread that only appears in the SPool for a few days before it is moved. I haven't really noticed a "piling on" here - mainly its been posters responding to your posts - but as I stated before, if you feel any post is just unnecessay whining/bashing BY ALL MEANS remove that post, NOT the entire thread though IMO.I appreciate you asking for feedback from us on this issue since I'm pretty sure many of us feel as strongly in our opinions value in regards to this as you do in yours....There is a "line" for SP posts but I really don't feel this crosses it at all.

 

[Fighting Noles]

Also, Joe I really feel that the SPool has become known as THE place to come for FF NEWS. That is no small accomplishment on you guys part & something that shouldn't be overlooked in this discussion. I highly doubt that there is anywhere else on the net that this issue is being addressed right now (unless someone saw it here first and then posted it elsewhere) and that alone gives the issue more merit. Not nearly as many posters see the other forums and I think this kind of info. being "taken away" would lessen the overall servicegoodwill in the FF community you guys have worked so hard to build up over the years....

Thanks again for listening.

 

[pizzatyme]

Joe,

I don't know where a thread like this belongs, but I can tell you that I frequent the FFA seldomly. If not for this forum, I would miss tons of information. I consider this thread fantasy football information. Maybe you can just pin a FF Industry Information thread? This way, there is one place to go for industry information.

Full disclosure: I happened to write for the Jungle last year. I did their Bi-weekly Matchups and also had a blog. I also played in a satellite league which I won and am now owed a $500 entry into 2009's Main Event. I talked to Mike several times last season and he is a good guy. I feel like crap about what is going on. I am miffed that it appears I am one of the unfortunate ones to get left out in the cold here.

You guys have a terrific site. Unfortunately for me, it is more than I can possibly consume. Therefore, having an Industry "News" or "Information" thread in the SP is very helpful to me.

 

[fatness]

I'm open to listening to the people that want this in the Shark Pool. I'd ask though where is the line?

Are threads talking about CBS Sportsline's live scoring being down Shark Pool material? no

How about the commissioner of my league won't pay out the prize money? How about brand X website's projections suck and cost me the game? no

None of those are remotely close to what we've done with the SP forever. The SP is a place to discuss NFL News and FF Strategy.

If you want to make this a public service forum, are you ok with people posting their charity event stuff? no

Is it ok to fill the Shark Pool with threads about bad experiences you've had buying football tickets on Ebay? no

If so, how about bad experiences buying music concert tickets on Ebay? no, and that's silly

Bad experiences buying jerseys from the sporting goods store in your town? no

Where is the line? When multiple people are ripped off by a fantasy football site. Fantasy football sites are only used by people who care about NFL News and FF Strategy

Is there a line to how many people must be affected before it's ok here? When multiple people are ripped off by a fantasy football site.

Suggested answers in bold.And to the best of my recollection (which isn't the greatest so I could be wrong), those suggestions would have been responsible so far for 2 threads in the Shark Pool, which in no way overruns it or defeats or dilutes its purpose.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm open to listening to the people that want this in the Shark Pool. I'd ask though where is the line?

Are threads talking about CBS Sportsline's live scoring being down Shark Pool material? no

How about the commissioner of my league won't pay out the prize money? How about brand X website's projections suck and cost me the game? no

None of those are remotely close to what we've done with the SP forever. The SP is a place to discuss NFL News and FF Strategy.

If you want to make this a public service forum, are you ok with people posting their charity event stuff? no

Is it ok to fill the Shark Pool with threads about bad experiences you've had buying football tickets on Ebay? no

If so, how about bad experiences buying music concert tickets on Ebay? no, and that's silly

Bad experiences buying jerseys from the sporting goods store in your town? no

Where is the line? When multiple people are ripped off by a fantasy football site. Fantasy football sites are only used by people who care about NFL News and FF Strategy

Is there a line to how many people must be affected before it's ok here? When multiple people are ripped off by a fantasy football site.

Suggested answers in bold.And to the best of my recollection (which isn't the greatest so I could be wrong), those suggestions would have been responsible so far for 2 threads in the Shark Pool, which in no way overruns it or defeats or dilutes its purpose.

How many people need to be affected for this to be Shark Pool worthy in your opinion? What if an online league management company has a credit card dispute and 2 people feel they have a greivance?

What if the WCOFF has a dispute and a guy feels he should have won $500 but instead finished out of the money? Do we have his Assistant Coach topic here in the Shark Pool?

What if the business is now gone? For instance, what if someone wants to bring up a thread next season about what scumbags company x were that didn't pay their guys after the 2008 season?

Again, I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to see how far you guys think the rules need to change.

J

 

[identikit]

How about pinning a thread since there is some serious financial ramifications to many of the FBG's here?

Even if it was pinned in another forum, there would be at least some visibility (though I believe it best belongs in the SP).

It could be a general thread about this sort of thing, because (sadly) with the economic times like they are, there's bound to be more of these kind of issues.

Just my

 

[pizzatyme]

How about pinning a thread since there is some serious financial ramifications to many of the FBG's here?Even if it was pinned in another forum, there would be at least some visibility (though I believe it best belongs in the SP).It could be a general thread about this sort of thing, because (sadly) with the economic times like they are, there's bound to be more of these kind of issues.Just my

What I said only clearer.

 

[identikit]

How about pinning a thread since there is some serious financial ramifications to many of the FBG's here?Even if it was pinned in another forum, there would be at least some visibility (though I believe it best belongs in the SP).It could be a general thread about this sort of thing, because (sadly) with the economic times like they are, there's bound to be more of these kind of issues.Just my

What I said only clearer.

 

[Mystery Achiever]

I'm open to listening to the people that want this in the Shark Pool. I'd ask though where is the line? Are threads talking about CBS Sportsline's live scoring being down Shark Pool material? How about the commissioner of my league won't pay out the prize money? How about brand X website's projections suck and cost me the game? None of those are remotely close to what we've done with the SP forever. The SP is a place to discuss NFL News and FF Strategy.

I think the line should be drawn based on whether a thread can help a decent number of people here play fantasy football. Issues with a website where many people run leagues seems reasonable to include-- for diagnostic purposes, not just to complain it is down. Soliciting advice on dealing with a league commissioner seems a fair question for the site if seeking advice vs. venting, but violates the "help a decent number" rule -- Maybe expand ACF to include indvidual questions on your team OR your league? That would have the bonus effect of increasing traffic over there.Based on that line, this thread would belong if they were still running contests. Since they're not, longer-term, it wouldn't be helping anyone play fantasy football (or avoid losing money on it).

 

[BassNBrew]

I'm open to listening to the people that want this in the Shark Pool. I'd ask though where is the line? Are threads talking about CBS Sportsline's live scoring being down Shark Pool material? How about the commissioner of my league won't pay out the prize money? How about brand X website's projections suck and cost me the game? None of those are remotely close to what we've done with the SP forever. The SP is a place to discuss NFL News and FF Strategy. If you want to make this a public service forum, are you ok with people posting their charity event stuff? Is it ok to fill the Shark Pool with threads about bad experiences you've had buying football tickets on Ebay? If so, how about bad experiences buying music concert tickets on Ebay? Bad experiences buying jerseys from the sporting goods store in your town? Where is the line?Is there a line to how many people must be affected before it's ok here? We've said repeatedly that Fantasy Jungle is closed and is not taking any new customers. There is no one reading this that will be saved from spending any money. This is purely a venting thread. Mostly by people who lost no money at all in the deal. It's the classic "pile on". We have the same exact threads in the FFA railing on whoever is the chosen company / person to rail on for the day. But that's sort of what the FFA does. That's never been what the Shark Pool does.I'm willing to listen to arguments about why a company that appears to be out of business should have their own thread in a forum with a very narrow focus of NFL News and Strategy. But I'd like to hear where you guys see the line being.J

I believe one of your mods started a thread in the beginning of last year looking to get information about high stakes league options as an information thread for fantasy players. There has definately been threads about high stakes league strategy. If discussing high stakes leagues is deemed useful shark pool material at the beginning of the year then I would think discussing the payout histories on the back end would be appropriate. Several here have posted about finding contests with escrowed prize funds. I think that's valuable information and if it's discussed enough, it could possibly become a trend that would better the industry.Personally I don't see an issue with discussing the job performance of provides like CBS or MFL. Those of us commishing want to know who the best provider is for the money and this community is a great place to acquire that information.I realize you don't want to clutter up the Shark Pool or detract from the NFL discussion. Maybe it would be possible to have one thread for High Stakes League discussion and another for League Management discussion. It wouldn't be hard to merge new threads into those broader threads since you would already be deleting them. I believe there is already a thread that discussing ideas for local league rules.

 

[bentley]

Joe - You clearly feel strongly about this and while I definitely respect your opinion (especially considering how you've built this site and THIS FORUM) and obviously know you are the final answer on this, I really don't see the similarities between the examples you've listed above and the possible closing of a High Stakes FANTASY FOOTBALL contest. Someones' local commish not paying is not the equal of a National Contest not paying its contestants (many of whom I know are members here). Although, a question regarding other players past handling of a commish not paying their local is more relevant than some of the posts I've seen here. The E-Bay music tickets (or Football) or "charity event" or Jerseys AREN'T FANTASY FOOTBALL related, so its an Apples/Oranges comparison. Plus, the statement that "noone reading this thread will be saved any future money" is something that is impossible for you (or anyone) to know at this time. MANY times, companies (same/similar owners) REOPEN under a different name or Corp.(or Similar Name, slightly different format or partner with another contest) and without this info. there is no way we'd know anything had gone wrong in the past. Lastly, often people may be on vacation or "swamped" at work and unable to read/see a thread that only appears in the SPool for a few days before it is moved. I haven't really noticed a "piling on" here - mainly its been posters responding to your posts - but as I stated before, if you feel any post is just unnecessay whining/bashing BY ALL MEANS remove that post, NOT the entire thread though IMO.I appreciate you asking for feedback from us on this issue since I'm pretty sure many of us feel as strongly in our opinions value in regards to this as you do in yours....There is a "line" for SP posts but I really don't feel this crosses it at all.

I pretty much agree completely with this guy. And reading through all the thread forum titles, you don't have any forum that this (or any other fantasy football discussion fits under). IMO, this issue fits more into the Shark Pool than any other forum. As Bass noted, these topics have been discussed in this forum in the past. And there's usually a few threads asking for recommendations on league management software or auction rules or something else on the first page or two, especially during the summer. None of these fit into the "NFL discussion" title in the Shark Pool. But they're topics that are of interest to Shark Poolers. And they're topics that are more valuable to a bunch of us than many of the other threads here.

 

[HeirCoryell]

Maybe we could have a stickied poll up for a week or two to help settle the debate on whether this topic is SP worthy?

 

[BassNBrew]

Maybe we could have a stickied poll up for a week or two to help settle the debate on whether this topic is SP worthy?

It's not a democracy and J won't govern by polls. The owner has asked for opinions and feedback to weigh into his decision or change his opinion. If the issue matters to you, present your own thoughts pro or con for him to consider. From there he'll make a decision he feels is in the best interest of his business and the health of the shark pool. We can't ask much more than that from the guy footing the bill for us to discuss football.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

just when I thought you were a renegade...

 

[Real Man of Genius]

IMO, if this thread weren't "Shark Pool Material", you'd see a lot more people in here saying such. The fact that such a high percentage of the respondents feel it should stay here seems to indicate that it should.

 

[fourd]

It is also my understanding from a significant number of fantasy players that Mike and Scott at the Jungle are straight up guys (unlike Neil and the contest that shall not be named), and I truly wish them the best in resolving the current issues they are having with payouts.

How can they be considered "straight up guys" if they use prize money for operating expenses? That money wasn't theirs to use any way other than paying out winners. People shouldn't start a business without appropriate capital, meaning having their own cash, not mine.

UPDATE-their whole website is down now. Sorry to be repetitive, but running 2 postseason contests and playing in at least 2 high stakes leagues themselves (i think their WCOFF team was even named FaantasyJungle.com) just makes me nauseous. Their college bowl contest had 160 entries at $50 an entry, and only had a prize pool of $3000, and they cant even pay that, and take their $5000 profit.This really proves that no matter how honorable a business has been in the past, there is no guarantee of future performance. I wouldnt even trust WCOFF now despite their track record. You have to be nuts to play any high stakes contest without proven escrowed funds.

No matter where this thread ends up or what else comes out of it, going forward this should be the most important point to take away. I don't care about track records or who owns the company or what their intentions are or any of that. It's happened more than once already and the current economy isn't exactly business-friendly. None of the contests that failed to pay, from what I can see, started out with the intent to leave their winners high and dry. But it's business and people can do funny things. I'm not interested in becoming an unsecured creditor of a business gone bad if I can help it. Making sure that the prize funds are escrowed is the only way to guarantee winners get paid. Promises don't cut it any more. Size doesn't cut it any more. Always paying in the past doesn't cut it any more. What's the saying? Fool me once... No escrow, no entry fee.

 

[HeirCoryell]

Maybe we could have a stickied poll up for a week or two to help settle the debate on whether this topic is SP worthy?

It's not a democracy and J won't govern by polls. The owner has asked for opinions and feedback to weigh into his decision or change his opinion. If the issue matters to you, present your own thoughts pro or con for him to consider. From there he'll make a decision he feels is in the best interest of his business and the health of the shark pool. We can't ask much more than that from the guy footing the bill for us to discuss football.

I think that there have been plenty of points on both side of the issue already. I would just be rewording what has already been said by others. A poll would just make it easier to express an opinion without having to waste time. I realize that Joe is the owner and has final say as to what happens here but, he is also a businessman and as the old saying goes, the customer is (almost) always right. If the vast majority of SP members think that this is a valid and important topic wouldn't it be in Joe's best interest to take that into account?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thanks to everyone that provided feedback. This can stay in the Shark Pool for now. I'll revisit later when things start getting really busy here.

J

 

[Fighting Noles]

THANK YOU JOE....That is another thing I really like about the SPool - You guys are always willing to dialogue with the membership when things are presented in a courteous back & forth manner. Major props to you on this IMO!

 

[renesauz]

Thanks to everyone that provided feedback. This can stay in the Shark Pool for now. I'll revisit later when things start getting really busy here.J