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Apple v. US Government (1 Viewer)

S

Sinn Fein

Footballguy
I am sure there is a thread on cyber security and whether tech companies should provide a backdoor to encrypted data, but Apple has now been ordered by a court to provide the FBI with a hack to the San Bernardino killer's iphone.

Here is Apple's Response

So where do we come down on the balance between privacy rights and government's interests to investigate crimes?

I tend to side with Apple on this, but can understand why people want the government to have the right to access data on smartphones.

 
I support Apple on this one. The FBI needs to find other sources for information in this case. I liken this to the 20 years ago where a suspect would simply shred or burn papers to keep information from being discovered.

 
Not sure on this one.  My understanding is that Apple would have to actually create something in order to break into this phone vs just give the government access.  If it was something Apple could already do I would be 100% behind the government, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Is it legal for a company in the digital age to create software that can't be responsive to a subpoena?   

 
I tried to drive a thread on these issues a while back but there seemed to be little interest. People seem hardly aware of free speech or how important it is and one day people will show up at the barricades and it will already be down.

Having said that it's incredibly frustrating that the government can't decrypt the Farooks' phones. It's crazy. 

However IMO a court cannot order anyone to create anything. But really I think Apple should do this voluntarily but keep the design to themselves. All they have to do is release the data in a criminal investigation. But I don't think they should hand the keys themselves to the government.

 
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Unfortunately (as in it sucks to not be able to get into the phone to potentially find more helpful info, i.e. other people, etc.), I agree with Apple in this case. That said, I wonder if there are other ways around it. Couldn't they just use the dead attacker's finger print?

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I tried to drive a thread on these issues a while back but there seemed to be little interest. People seem hardly aware of free speech or how important it is and one day people will show up at the barricades and it will already be down.

Having said that it's incredibly frustrating that the government can't decrypt the Farooks' phones. It's crazy. 

However IMO a court cannot order anyone to create anything. But really I think Apple should do this voluntarily but keep the design to themselves. All they have to do is release the data in a criminal investigation. But I don't think they should hand the keys themselves to the government.
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Maybe there is an Apple agreeable solution if they just give them the unlocked data. They just don't want to create a version that could get out. That said, if you saw the 60 minutes piece, they are pretty anal about security of new designs/etc., so you would think they could contain it and say it cannot get out of Apple, they have to do the decryption in house.

 
I think Cook's position on this is right - if Apple builds it for this one-time only use - its already too late.  That master key will get out, and that compromises the data security on all iphones.

And, from a business perspective, the industry is clearly moving towards smart-phones replacing almost everything - certainly credit cards and the like.  

 
Jobber said:
I support Apple on this one. The FBI needs to find other sources for information in this case. I liken this to the 20 years ago where a suspect would simply shred or burn papers to keep information from being discovered.
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Problem is the papers aren't burned or shredded, they were terrorists and Apple is protecting them if they can readily access the data, which IMO they can. I have very little faith that any non open source software or OS is free from backdoors.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I think Cook's position on this is right - if Apple builds it for this one-time only use - its already too late.  That master key will get out, and that compromises the data security on all iphones.

And, from a business perspective, the industry is clearly moving towards smart-phones replacing almost everything - certainly credit cards and the like.  
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Look I'm extremely pro free speech, but technologically I'm not sure I get this. If Apple unlocks the data themselves and hands that over to the USG, they don't have to hand over their method for doing so do they? To the extent the judge demands that yeah I think that's wrong.

 
Why is the gov't even going this route and asking Apple?  Just hack it yourselves.  If you can get into China's stuff, you can get into an OSX device.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Look I'm extremely pro free speech, but technologically I'm not sure I get this. If Apple unlocks the data themselves and hands that over to the USG, they don't have to hand over their method for doing so do they? To the extent the judge demands that yeah I think that's wrong.
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The hack does not currently exist.  Someone has to create it - and when they do, it is unlikely to be contained - even within the hermetically sealed walls at Apple.

 
The Commish said:
Why is the gov't even going this route and asking Apple?  Just hack it yourselves.  If you can get into China's stuff, you can get into an OSX device.
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This part is really shocking.

Otoh I could see how China could then demand that Apple turn it over to them if they created it as a condition of doing business there.

 
Hawks64 said:
Problem is the papers aren't burned or shredded, they were terrorists and Apple is protecting them if they can readily access the data, which IMO they can. I have very little faith that any non open source software or OS is free from backdoors.
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Apple is also protecting you, and any confidential data you have on your phone, like contacts, pictures, banking info, etc....

Apple has turned over everything it has from the icloud account - the guy simply turned off that feature about 6 weeks prior to the shootings.  So, anything left is physically on the phone, and not currently recoverable.

 
Sinn Fein said:
The hack does not currently exist.  Someone has to create it - and when they do, it is unlikely to be contained - even within the hermetically sealed walls at Apple.
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It sounds like an almost CDC situation.

Also like I said above I could see how foreign governments could then demand it which itself could then endanger lives, including American ones.

 
Sinn Fein said:
The hack does not currently exist.  Someone has to create it - and when they do, it is unlikely to be contained - even within the hermetically sealed walls at Apple.
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This is where you're naive IMO. I don't buy for one single moment that Apple doesn't have a backdoor in iOS, like I said the only software I trust to be back door free is open source as the community would be very readily aware of it.

 
Hawks64 said:
This is where you're naive IMO. I don't buy for one single moment that Apple doesn't have a backdoor in iOS, like I said the only software I trust to be back door free is open source as the community would be very readily aware of it.
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Maybe.  But given that Apple has cooperated on everything else in the case, I think they would have worked out a deal with the government to secretly give the data to the government.  Obviously, it would be a PR hit if the public knew Apple could get your information off your iphone, but I imagine they could have negotiated some way of ensuring that it was never disclosed that Apple provided the data.

 
I think Apple needs to fight this battle even if it means Cook is found to be in contempt of court. Sometimes you have to do what's right and I strongly believe this is one of those times in history. 

 
johnnyrock62000 said:
I think Apple needs to fight this battle even if it means Cook is found to be in contempt of court. Sometimes you have to do what's right and I strongly believe this is one of those times in history. 
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I agree. The government is asking for a new version of the OS with the 10 guess encryption feature disabled. If that gets out, or the government gets a hold of it, that's very bad news. 

 
If the government can't hack into it then that's their problem.  They shouldn't be able to force a company to develop software that is of no benefit to them and could be a detriment.

 
Jobber said:
I agree. The government is asking for a new version of the OS with the 10 guess encryption feature disabled. If that gets out, or the government gets a hold of it, that's very bad news. 
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Isn't that how all the nudie pics of the celebrities came out?  Someone just brute forced their way into their phones and got the pictures?

 
The thing is that they surely can get access to the memory by cracking the phone open.  I have to assume all the encryption is on the back end and the front end physical memory is just some nickle part that you could singulate and dump.  There might not be a front end software solution at all.   

I used to work at a DRAM reliability facility.  One time someone sent us a super secret part and wanted to see if I could dump the contents.  I didn't know what it was.  They said they wanted only the first 64 Bytes, but they meant bits.  So I crafted a way to dump the contents of the memory by bit banging the buss one by one and dumped all 64 bytes put it in an excel sheet and sent it to the customer.

I only found out later that I sent the encryption key for the first version of DRM.  

 
matttyl said:
Isn't that how all the nudie pics of the celebrities came out?  Someone just brute forced their way into their phones and got the pictures?
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I think they hacked the icloud accounts, not the phones themselves.

 
Even if it was agreed that Apple would only have to create the hack and release the data, once it was known that Apple had that tool, they would be ordered to turn it over in the future.

 
The Commish said:
I was talking more about China's defense systems, gov't networks etc.  
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I agree, that's what I meant. But apparently that's the case. It's pretty well known the Feds have not been able to penetrate the Farooks' phone data.

 
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I agree with Apple's position on this issue.  But I also believe that Apple is doing this to protect its own bottom line - because sales of Apple products will decline if the public knows that Apple's security system was easily defeated by a backdoor program created by Apple for use by law enforcement or anybody else who gets their hands on it.

 
Awful.  This is exactly the reason I hope Obama makes a libertarian minded nomination for SCOTUS, although I assume he won't.

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
I really hope Apple holds strong here.
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Their business model depends on how effectively they can thwart the government here.  They want to tun the iphone into the only device you need - holding credit card info, health info etc.  All of that goes out the window without the appearance of a secure system - with no back-door access.

 
culdeus said:
The thing is that they surely can get access to the memory by cracking the phone open.  I have to assume all the encryption is on the back end and the front end physical memory is just some nickle part that you could singulate and dump.  There might not be a front end software solution at all.   

I used to work at a DRAM reliability facility.  One time someone sent us a super secret part and wanted to see if I could dump the contents.  I didn't know what it was.  They said they wanted only the first 64 Bytes, but they meant bits.  So I crafted a way to dump the contents of the memory by bit banging the buss one by one and dumped all 64 bytes put it in an excel sheet and sent it to the customer.

I only found out later that I sent the encryption key for the first version of DRM.  
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:jawdrop:  WOW!

No idea what that means...

 
Apple needs to hold tough here.  The gov't is hoping that the populous will put pressure on Apple to create the hack just for this special occasion of trying to catch terrorist.  It would be stunning how swiftly the lowering of bar for the gov't to get personal information for just about any reason.

 
seems like good pub for apple if the govt cant figure out a way to hack their stuff.

i'm with them.

 
Hawks64 said:
This is where you're naive IMO. I don't buy for one single moment that Apple doesn't have a backdoor in iOS, like I said the only software I trust to be back door free is open source as the community would be very readily aware of it.
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You're the naive one, if you don't think the government has already cracked Apple's encryption and this whole thing is just a show to trick other terrorists into using Apple products because they think it's secure.

:tinfoilhat:

 
joffer said:
seems like good pub for apple if the govt cant figure out a way to hack their stuff.

i'm with them.
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I agree. And really bad pub for the US law enforcement capabilities. How are these guys going to stop cyber terrorists if they can't get into an iphone?

 
Bogeys said:
Not sure on this one.  My understanding is that Apple would have to actually create something in order to break into this phone vs just give the government access.  If it was something Apple could already do I would be 100% behind the government, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Is it legal for a company in the digital age to create software that can't be responsive to a subpoena?   
Click to expand...
I don't see how the fact that they might have to create something really impacts this.  The government creates regulations/legal requirements on businesses/industries that are not prepared for them all the time.  It is up to the companies to adapt and come into compliance.

This is going to be a difficult fight for Apple.  Standing up and delaying it will help their image to an extent, but I don't believe it's a war they can win long-term.

 
jonessed said:
I don't see how the fact that they might have to create something really impacts this.  The government creates regulations/legal requirements on businesses/industries that are not prepared for them all the time.  It is up to the companies to adapt and come into compliance.

This is going to be a difficult fight for Apple.  Standing up and delaying it will help their image to an extent, but I don't believe it's a war they can win long-term.
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The difference to me is that if you have a subpoena it is to produce specific documents or something already in your possession.  This is more of a create this program for the government so we can undermine a selling point of your product.

I am torn on this one honestly and can see both sides.  Security vs Privacy is usually more clear cut to me, but not this time.

 
What if it's simply true that this feature can't be hacked?  I mean there simply might not be a backdoor thru software.  Then what?

 
culdeus said:
What if it's simply true that this feature can't be hacked?  I mean there simply might not be a backdoor thru software.  Then what?
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I think thats why they are asking apple to create a new OS to install on the phone to enable it to be brute-force hacked.

 
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