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Are Plants Entering the Realm of the Sentient?- Now EXPANDED to include "Consciousness/Sentience" in general (1 Viewer)

OK, with some of the recent discussion here in regards to AI, emergent consciousness and the potential risk of such a phenomenon, I was reminded of a less covered, yet similar, issue.

Are Plants Entering the Realm of the Sentient?

Are Plants Entering the Realm of the Sentient?

Astounding findings are emerging about plant awareness and intelligence.
Posted Dec 31, 2014

In 1900 the Bengali biophysicist and botanist Jagdish Chandra Bose taught that plants are not merely passive organisms lacking sense. Instead, they explore their environments and can learn and change their behavior with purpose. Plants have an electrical nervous system, he claimed, that allows them to transmit information among their roots, stems, leaves, and other parts.

In the last couple of decades botany has begun to catch up with Bose’s ideas, leading scientists to some amazing questions: Are plants conscious? Do they have knowledge? Can they feel pain?

In 1992 researchers discovered that tomato plants will produce certain proteins throughout their bodies when they’re wounded. The speed of the response precludes the possibility of chemical signals; the plants are producing electrical signals to direct change to occur more quickly within more distant parts of the plant.

Slow yet Smart

We tend to look at plants as dumb and nearly inert. They’re anchored in place and seem to bend passively with the breeze and grow gradually to capture sunlight. With rare exceptions such as the Venus flytrap, they move only very slowly, such as when a vine seeks an object to attach to. With time-lapse photography, scientists have begun to capture plant movements that seem sensible and intelligent. Under time-lapse, the seedling of a Cuscuta (dodder) vine seems to search for a host by sniffing the air. It then lunges toward its new host when it finds one, resembling snake movements.

When plants seem to be behaving like animals, we must reconsider whether intelligence truly is an exclusively animal trait. Watch a Dodder vine sniff out its prey: http://video.pbs.org/viralplayer/2341198769

Scientists are indeed questioning whether this distinction is as clear-cut as modern science has previously assumed. In 2005 researchers founded the Society for Plant Neurobiology to advance in this debate. A founder of the organization, the Italian scientist Stefano Mancuso, argues that we should stop assuming that a brain is needed for intelligence. Even without neurons and a brain, plants can acquire, process, and integrate information to shape their behavior in a way that could be called intelligent.

Locating Intelligence

As reported in a recent article in the magazine New Scientist,2 the apparent magic of consciousness in plants seems to depend on several physiological features, particularly those of their root systems. Plant roots include various “zones,” including a “transition zone,” which is electrically active and seems analogous to the animal brain—it contains a mechanism similar to neurotransmitters. Another part of the root, the root cap, can sense various physical properties “such as gravity, humidity, light, oxygen, and nutrients.”3 Most cells in plants can make and transmit neuron-like activity. In roots every cell can do so.

Mancuso says, “If we need to find an integrative processing part of the plant, we need to look at the roots.”4

Plants also produce serotonin, GABA, and melatonin, which act as hormones and neurotransmitters in animal brains, though it’s not yet known what they do in plants. Intriguingly, drugs such as Prozac, Ritalin, and methamphetamines can disrupt these “neurotransmitters” in plants.

Vital Capacities

Plants sense light, but they also communicate with one another using chemicals. They “know” when they’re being touched. They integrate all of this information without the kind of neural system that animals have.

And they have memory—the ability to store and recall an event at a later time. A Venus flytrap, for instance, doesn’t chomp down when it receives its first sensation of a fly; it only closes if the hairs in its trap sense another contact within a half minute or so. It “remembers” the first touch.

More surprising is the result of an experiment that Mancuso carried out with Mimosa pudica, the “touch-me-not” plant. He and colleagues dropped potted mimosas repeatedly onto foam from 15 centimeters (about 6 inches) above. The plants closed their leaves in response to the fall initially, but stopped doing so after four to six drops. It seems that they “learned” that there was no danger. It’s not that they were no longer able to close their leaves—they still would do so in response to touch. They retained this ability to discriminate between the harmless fall and the potentially harmful (about to be eaten) touch after a month.

Source: By Lalithamba from India (Mimosa pudica L. (Touch me not plant)) [CC BY 2.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0)], via Wikimedia Commons
Consciousness?

Frantisek Baluska at the University of Bonn, Germany, has pushed further into the question of consciousness by suggesting that plants may even experience pain. They release the chemical ethylene when stressed—when being eaten, attacked, or cut. Nearby plants can sense the ethylene. One researcher equated this release of ethylene with a scream. Since plants also produce the chemical in large quantities when their fruit are ready to be eaten, there’s conjecture that they’re using ethylene as an anesthetic (animals can also be knocked out with ethylene, an anesthetic).

Psychologists and philosophers will likely debate the precise definition of intelligence until the end of time. It may in truth blend into the whole continuum of biological capacities—faculties of various kinds, particularly sensation and memory, that seem to exist throughout the animal world. But as we realize that plants have significant abilities in sensation, awareness, integration of information, long-term memory, and adaptive learning, we must at least leave open the possibility that intelligence is certainly not unique to humans and probably not even to animals.

What It Means for Us

Admitting the possibility that plants may be intelligent—and perhaps conscious—not only brings up many questions about our instrumental (what’s in it for me?) relationship with the rest of nature. It also gives us fodder to rethink the human place in the natural world. I wrote previously that it’s long overdue for us to stop thinking of humans as the only conscious animals. If powerful capabilities long thought unique to humans exist not only in other animals but in plants as well, we must truly begin to see greater continuity between ourselves and the rest of nature.

Check out my book: Invisible Nature

Follow me: Twitter or Facebook

Read more of my posts: The Green Mind

1. Anil Anathaswamy, “Roots of Consciousness,” New Scientist, 6 December 2014, pp. 34–37.

2. Anil Anathaswamy, “Roots of Consciousness,” New Scientist, 6 December 2014, pp. 34–37.

3. Anil Anathaswamy, “Roots of Consciousness,” New Scientist, 6 December 2014, p. 36.

4. Anil Anathaswamy, “Roots of Consciousness,” New Scientist, 6 December 2014, p. 36.
 
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Should we be watching our house plants more closely?

There is a lot more speculation on this, but I thought this was a good, simple beginning.

Also, if any of this holds any weight, does it make any difference in regards to those who eat plant products while avoiding eating meat for ethical reasons?

EDIT: Shtick is very welcome here.

 
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Going to be hard for all those organic vegans to switch to an entirely synthetic diet.

But that would be the principled thing to do if one's belief system precludes eating sentient beings.

 
Going to be hard for all those organic vegans to switch to an entirely synthetic diet.

But that would be the principled thing to do if one's belief system precludes eating sentient beings.
I like the thought.

However, what about fruit, nuts and other edibles that can be harvested without killing the plant? 

 
Will our superior mobility and technological advantage allow us to survive against the ubiquitousness of the botanical hive mind, or we will eventually find ourselves hemmed in and farmed for nutrients?

 
Plants are not self-aware.  They do not have a nervous system, so any concept of what we understand as "pain" is unlikely to exist.  

So, no.

(says the vegetarian, of course)

 
Plants are not self-aware.  They do not have a nervous system, so any concept of what we understand as "pain" is unlikely to exist.  

So, no.

(says the vegetarian, of course)
Very good. Thnx.

Now, as I mentioned above, I am agnostic on this, but I am going to play Devil's Advocate.

1) By using this same line of reasoning, would you also contend that AI will never be self-aware as it does not have and will not have an animal nervous system?

2) What exactly do we understand of pain?

My belief (very summarized), is that we understand it as negative feedback via electrochemical mechanisms that alerts us (ouch) to respond to injuries and threats to our well being. It varies in intensity based upon either the magnitude of the stimuli or the location/density of the sensors. It has a cycle of phases that correspond to the progression of the threat and/or injury....or time. In our own consciousness, it registers as an extremely subjective experience  (e.g. pain tolerance scales and testing).

Would you disagree with my brief description? If so, help me improve it. :)

 
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I like the thought.

However, what about fruit, nuts and other edibles that can be harvested without killing the plant? 
That would seem somewhat analogous to what separates vegetarians and vegans today. If eggs, dairy, and honey aren't okay with vegans now, I could see how fruit, nuts, etc would be problematic then.

 
That would seem somewhat analogous to what separates vegetarians and vegans today. If eggs, dairy, and honey aren't okay with vegans now, I could see how fruit, nuts, etc would be problematic then.
Great info jhib, thanks.

I am not very well informed on this aspect of my topic. :(

As a full bore carnivore...eh...omnivore, I have never really studied the fine distinctions involved with meat/animal-product avoiding diets.

 
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Will our superior mobility and technological advantage allow us to survive against the ubiquitousness of the botanical hive mind, or we will eventually find ourselves hemmed in and farmed for nutrients?
:lol:

Good one.

Also, after thinking on the matter for a while, "hive mind" is very good analogy in some cases. I don't have any of the good info on this at hand right now, but I will try to find something on it soon.

Thnx.

 
Very good. Thnx.

Now, as I mentioned above, I am agnostic on this, but I am going to play Devil's Advocate.

1) By using this same line of reasoning, would you also contend that AI will never be self-aware as it does not have and will not have an animal nervous system?

2) What exactly do we understand of pain?

My belief (very summarized), is that we understand it as negative feedback via electrochemical mechanisms that alerts us (ouch) to respond to injuries and threats to our well being. It varies in intensity based upon either the magnitude of the stimuli or the location/density of the sensors. It has a cycle of phases that correspond to the progression of the threat and/or injury....or time. In our own consciousness, it registers as an extremely subjective experience  (e.g. pain tolerance scales and testing).

Would you disagree with my brief description? If so, help me improve it. :)
Enjoyable topic...I'll engage seriously with it, as well as continuing the silliness as we laugh in the face of impending botanical doom!

1) AI are substituting artificial structures for natural ones, but the networking in an AI is not dissimilar to that of an organic brain.  In fact researchers have used nervous systems as models for designing their self-learning systems, so I think if we look strictly at architecture, AI computers would be classified among the lower animals at the moment.

2) If pain is just a stimulus-avoidance response, that's too general to be useful.  One could look at ions repelled by a membrane of opposite charge and define them as experiencing pain, which would lead to nonsense like salt water solutions being potentially sentient.

This in my view is the real weakness in the "plants might be sentient" argument.  Response to stimulus in and of itself isnt a mark of intelligence.  Opposite charges attract, all over the universe, without requiring a directed intelligence.  If we're looking for evidence of sentience, we really need to be looking for "self awareness" rather than just "response to environment" which even minerals will demonstrate.  (Water flowing down hill follows an irregular, branching path that could be mistaken for sentient choicemaking if not explainable by basic physics.  Plants may just be biochemistry manifesting itself in like fashion.)

3) There is a clear distinction between sensations and response to wounding on the part of an advanced animal, compared to that of a plant.  And it isnt entirely clear that even animals are truly sentient.  (I suppose the same could be asked of man.  Are we truly self-aware, or just manifesting an odd outcome set of biochemical interactions?  For me, the fact that philosophers have been arguing about this for centuries argues in favor of true awareness.)

4) I am going to continue to enjoy a good balanced meal of meats and vegetables while we sort this out.  But those who are concerned should question the ethics even of fruits and vegetables.  How would you like to be kept involuntarily confined and have your regenerative organs harvested repeatedly for use by another?

 
In the end, we all end up plant food.  
That's a...terrifying thought.

What if we're the ones living with only the illusion of control, and the plants have been orchestrating our population growth punctuated by our genocidal conflicts, just to ensure a steady supply of fertilizer?

 
I like the thought.

However, what about fruit, nuts and other edibles that can be harvested without killing the plant? 
There will have to be some severe cognitive dissonance on that one if it is somehow proven that plants are sentient. See, they won't eat dairy when milking the cow does not kill the cow. Not sure about how they feel about honey. It's made by an animal. Bee vomit is that OK?

 
I was watching Steel Magnolias once and i swear my ficus was crying right along with me. My cleaning lady was there earlier so it could be from the products or her spraying the plants like she does, but i prefer to think Frank (ficus) teared up. So what if plants are sentimental, i say.

 
What if we're the ones living with only the illusion of control, and the plants have been orchestrating our population growth punctuated by our genocidal conflicts, just to ensure a steady supply of fertilizer?
The calls are coming from inside the greenhouse.

 
So now I've got to be worried about what my weed thinks of me?

puff puff, what are you looking at, pass 

:paranoid: 

 
Just like the oxygen/nitrogen cycle, plants using animal waste and decomposition for fertilizer while we eat the plants is a symbiotic relationship.  We need the life and death of one another for ultimate survival.

 
Enjoyable topic...I'll engage seriously with it, as well as continuing the silliness as we laugh in the face of impending botanical doom!

1) AI are substituting artificial structures for natural ones, but the networking in an AI is not dissimilar to that of an organic brain.  In fact researchers have used nervous systems as models for designing their self-learning systems, so I think if we look strictly at architecture, AI computers would be classified among the lower animals at the moment.

2) If pain is just a stimulus-avoidance response, that's too general to be useful.  One could look at ions repelled by a membrane of opposite charge and define them as experiencing pain, which would lead to nonsense like salt water solutions being potentially sentient.

This in my view is the real weakness in the "plants might be sentient" argument.  Response to stimulus in and of itself isnt a mark of intelligence.  Opposite charges attract, all over the universe, without requiring a directed intelligence.  If we're looking for evidence of sentience, we really need to be looking for "self awareness" rather than just "response to environment" which even minerals will demonstrate.  (Water flowing down hill follows an irregular, branching path that could be mistaken for sentient choicemaking if not explainable by basic physics.  Plants may just be biochemistry manifesting itself in like fashion.)

3) There is a clear distinction between sensations and response to wounding on the part of an advanced animal, compared to that of a plant.  And it isnt entirely clear that even animals are truly sentient.  (I suppose the same could be asked of man.  Are we truly self-aware, or just manifesting an odd outcome set of biochemical interactions?  For me, the fact that philosophers have been arguing about this for centuries argues in favor of true awareness.)

4) I am going to continue to enjoy a good balanced meal of meats and vegetables while we sort this out.  But those who are concerned should question the ethics even of fruits and vegetables.  How would you like to be kept involuntarily confined and have your regenerative organs harvested repeatedly for use by another?
Excellent rebuttal A.

I am heading to my parents for the night (doing some work for them), and won't be posting from there, but I will be will scheming my retort!  :rant:

 
There will have to be some severe cognitive dissonance on that one if it is somehow proven that plants are sentient. See, they won't eat dairy when milking the cow does not kill the cow. Not sure about how they feel about honey. It's made by an animal. Bee vomit is that OK?
Bee vomit is good in my book!

 
I was watching Steel Magnolias once and i swear my ficus was crying right along with me. My cleaning lady was there earlier so it could be from the products or her spraying the plants like she does, but i prefer to think Frank (ficus) teared up. So what if plants are sentimental, i say.
Frank seems like a really great guy...

...I wish you both the best! :)

Oh, does your state allow for human/plant marriages?

I think SCOTUS may eventually have to accept this case. :(

 
Very good. Thnx.

Now, as I mentioned above, I am agnostic on this, but I am going to play Devil's Advocate.

1) By using this same line of reasoning, would you also contend that AI will never be self-aware as it does not have and will not have an animal nervous system?

2) What exactly do we understand of pain?

My belief (very summarized), is that we understand it as negative feedback via electrochemical mechanisms that alerts us (ouch) to respond to injuries and threats to our well being. It varies in intensity based upon either the magnitude of the stimuli or the location/density of the sensors. It has a cycle of phases that correspond to the progression of the threat and/or injury....or time. In our own consciousness, it registers as an extremely subjective experience  (e.g. pain tolerance scales and testing).

Would you disagree with my brief description? If so, help me improve it. :)
Sorry, my responses weren't clear, as that wasn't quite my line of reasoning.  I was making two specific statements:

1. Plants are not sentient because they are not self-aware (at least we have no substantive evidence that they are self-aware)

2. Plants do not feel pain because they lack the a central nervous system and a brain (something to receive and transmit the stimuli and something to interpret it as the feeling "pain").  I think there was something in the article that precipitated that response by me, but without going back through it, I can't recall why. But that was an entirely different statement, which was confusing when read the way I wrote it.

In terms of understanding pain: I more or less agree with your summary, although I am neither a psycho-something-ist nor a bio-something-gist, just a lowly layman.  

But, plants are not sentient.  

Now, can AI or something altogether artificial become sentient?  I think it is very possible.  I mean, I think you could chalk up sentience as an orchestration of interactive and dynamic algorithms that allow us to perceive, to learn, and to adapt (or something like that).

 
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Sorry, my responses weren't clear, as that wasn't quite my line of reasoning.  I was making two specific statements:

1. Plants are not sentient because they are not self-aware (at least we have no substantive evidence that they are self-aware)

2. Plants do not feel pain because they lack the a central nervous system and a brain (something to receive and transmit the stimuli and something to interpret it as the feeling "pain").  I think there was something in the article that precipitated that response by me, but without going back through it, I can't recall why. But that was an entirely different statement, which was confusing when read the way I wrote it.

In terms of understanding pain: I more or less agree with your summary, although I am neither a psycho-something-ist nor a bio-something-gist, just a lowly layman.  

But, plants are not sentient.  

Not, can AI or something altogether artificial become sentient?  I think it is very possible.  I mean, I think you could chalk up sentience as an orchestration of interactive and dynamic algorithms that allow us to perceive, to learn, and to adapt (or something like that).
Got ya CA...thnx for the clarification.  I will think about it tonight as well.

 
Got ya CA...thnx for the clarification.  I will think about it tonight as well.
Certainly an interesting topic idea, at least to try and flesh out a bit.

I personally think something more interesting might be discussing whether dolphins are sentient?  And if so, what does that mean in how we treat them?  And what does sentience mean for anything, really? 

 
Certainly an interesting topic idea, at least to try and flesh out a bit.

I personally think something more interesting might be discussing whether dolphins are sentient?  And if so, what does that mean in how we treat them?  And what does sentience mean for anything, really? 
Excellent point!

I am open to expanding this thread to sentience/consciousness in general.

I will make a title change soon.

 
Sorry, my responses weren't clear, as that wasn't quite my line of reasoning.  I was making two specific statements:

1. Plants are not sentient because they are not self-aware (at least we have no substantive evidence that they are self-aware)
Just out of curiosity, what would suffice as evidence?  Clearly they take in sensory data in some manner, and respond to that data input through their "behavior".  

 
Certainly an interesting topic idea, at least to try and flesh out a bit.

I personally think something more interesting might be discussing whether dolphins are sentient?  And if so, what does that mean in how we treat them?  And what does sentience mean for anything, really? 
I dont think humanity treats dolphins any worse than we treat members of our own species as it is.  

So what would you think needed to change if it turns out the flippers are sentient?

 
I dont think humanity treats dolphins any worse than we treat members of our own species as it is.  

So what would you think needed to change if it turns out the flippers are sentient?
My standard for how we ought to treat something isn't how we, collectively or individually, typically treat something.  

Regarding your second question, I'm not really sure.  Some are kept in capativity for the purposes of entertaining others.  It think, for sentient beings, that might be something I'd consider unacceptable.  I'd have to think more fully about it, though.

 
My standard for how we ought to treat something isn't how we, collectively or individually, typically treat something.  

Regarding your second question, I'm not really sure.  Some are kept in capativity for the purposes of entertaining others.  It think, for sentient beings, that might be something I'd consider unacceptable.  I'd have to think more fully about it, though.
Well said.  

So to give you a more serious answer...it surely depends on the individual's preferences.  There may well be some humans who would willingly trade freedom for a life of comfort, good food, free medical care, absence of predators, etc.  They might even be willing to perform periodically to "earn" it.  Maybe the dolphins feel similarly, and think themselves fortunate to be freed from the perils and drudgery of hunting for food in the great deep.

Given that we can imagine such hypotheticals for and against any treatment short of outright torture, it seems to me that step one, if we conclude that something is sentient, would be to aggressively strive to communicate with it.

The fact that most all of our "first contact" fiction with extraterrestrial intelligences presumes this same first step gives me hope that we will take a similar tack with terrestrial sentience, whether ape, dolphin, or the grass in my front lawn.

 
OK, I updated the thread title to indicate that this topic is now expanding to include the discussion of consciousness/sentience in general. This can be in relation to humans, other animals, AI...whatever...have at it.

This actually should have been included to begin with, because it is vary hard to answer the question, "is something sentient?",  without first defining what "sentience" is.

Over the next few days, I am going to try and put together my definition...without just resorting to posting a lot of Wikipedia links, and saying, "read this". However, I will try to cite my references, which may include said links.

Other's definitions are welcome and encouraged. :)

As is the schtick...always.

 
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Slightly off topic. Was reading the other day about a theory of the origin of life based in thermodyanamics that apparently has been around for a while.

Ive also read about plants resonating at frequencies that useful animals can respond to, such as bees. Some think they have something similar to beta waves present in complex intelligent life.

 
Slightly off topic. Was reading the other day about a theory of the origin of life based in thermodyanamics that apparently has been around for a while.

Ive also read about plants resonating at frequencies that useful animals can respond to, such as bees. Some think they have something similar to beta waves present in complex intelligent life.
Not off topic at all RIU. Great article and added comment.

This quote:

The next step will be to run experiments on living systems.
...is very important in my opinion, as it stresses the need for "testability".

And in closer relation to consciousness/sentience, testability is often lacking. This is one of the biggest hurdles I am having in creating my definition for this topic...(i.e how do I make it testable?)

And, speaking of my definition:

Over the next few days, I am going to try and put together my definition...
...I ending up spending most of the week at my parents...just got home.

Annnndd, after spending such a stretch with my parents, I am seriously reconsidering the whole idea of sentience/consciousness!  :loco:  

In all seriousness, I hope to have a 1st draft definition up this week-end.

I saved this for last DW...

...because it hurts.  :(

Low blow man...real low blow.  :Sorrow:

<heads off to parents for a delicious dinner of baby rabbit stew>  :wub:
I apologize for my insensitive comment.
It takes quite a bunny to apologize DW...

...thus, I apologize for the coney stew. :)

 

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