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Are the Patriots still an elite team? (1 Viewer)

Mike irvin is a piece of crap. i just listened to him rip Brady because Tom kept whining about his players making mistakes then he says Tom throwing a tantrum on sideline was taking it way too far and that if Mike was on that bench or field he wouldn't have put up with it.

 
Irvin was trying to say if any other QB in the NFL pulled those stunts people would hate him. But not TOM. Whatever. 2 - 0.

 
kOOk said:
Mike irvin is a piece of crap. i just listened to him rip Brady because Tom kept whining about his players making mistakes then he says Tom throwing a tantrum on sideline was taking it way too far and that if Mike was on that bench or field he wouldn't have put up with it.
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well, if irvin was on the field he'd probably have 15 catches for 200 yds so he wouldn't have to put up with it

 
Bobby Guano said:
kOOk said:
Irvin was trying to say if any other QB in the NFL pulled those stunts people would hate him. But not TOM. Whatever. 2 - 0.
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I think he has a point.....what would everyone be saying if Cutler acted like that?
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if cutler did that ppl would probably say he was an overrated doosh who has never won a ####### thing in his career and he should put a ####### cork in it.

and those ppl would probably be me

 
kOOk said:
Mike irvin is a piece of crap. i just listened to him rip Brady because Tom kept whining about his players making mistakes then he says Tom throwing a tantrum on sideline was taking it way too far and that if Mike was on that bench or field he wouldn't have put up with it.
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Coke puts me to sleep. For some it just makes their mouths run.

 
I didn't know a complicated offense made the ball harder to catch.

Thankfully they play in a crappy division.

 
Irvin is right, Brady comes off as a doosh. I'm a big Pats fan but the reality is Brady shows up his teammates time and time again. He also isn't one to shoulder much of the blame. I realize the Pats will never come close to having another QB as good as him but his act is wearing thin on this fan.

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
Irvin is right, Brady comes off as a doosh. I'm a big Pats fan but the reality is Brady shows up his teammates time and time again. He also isn't one to shoulder much of the blame. I realize the Pats will never come close to having another QB as good as him but his act is wearing thin on this fan.
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Exactly. When Dobson didn't take the route Brady wanted him to in the red zone, we all saw Brady's little temper tantrum after the throw. We also saw him cry that "It was wide open!!!!" on the bench. What he DIDN'T do is walk up to his rookie receiver and calmly let him know what he was expecting him to do. For Brady these days, it's all about letting everyone know that it wasn't his fault. He's a terrible leader and only thinks about making sure he doesn't look bad.

 
Do you really want brady to accept the level of performance demonstrated by dobson thompkins etc? I sure dont. Yeah he's a dbag. Always has been. Dont care. Wide receivers are widgets. Perform as designed or be replaced.

 
I agree. The finally get the defense fixed and now the offense looks weak. Brady might have a heart attack before this is over. He's pisswd on every play

 
Not elite at this time but still a well run organization. Doesn't take much to disrupt a good NFL team. Look at the Giants recently or Saints without Peyton etc.

 
I missed where Brady threw a fit to himself after badly missing Edelman and Thompkins on wide open deep balls.

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
Do you really want brady to accept the level of performance demonstrated by dobson thompkins etc? I sure dont. Yeah he's a dbag. Always has been. Dont care. Wide receivers are widgets. Perform as designed or be replaced.
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He doesn't have to accept it, but being a total dbag won't make the rookies better or build their confidence. He should have coached them up like a leader instead of just screaming at them.

 
Maybe wait till they lose a game before calling them non-elite. Great teams find a way to win even when they don't play well.

 
Their O has been so bad, their D hasn't received much attention.

This could be because they faced two rookie QBs, but Manuel looked real good to me. I have no doubt he's going to destroy some D this year. Bills as team seem different with him in there even. I'll stop, just I think quite highly of Manuel now.

I imagine they are going to be in every game with a very good D and coached by BB. Doesn't matter if his WRs were kindergarten kids, Brady is still scary with the game on the line. I'd like to see a top offense face the Pats, for now though it looks like it's going to keep coming back to a fourth quarter win.

 
Why are we ripping their offense again?? The whole offense is standing on the sideline in street clothes. Well, that or prison Orange.

But really, doesn't take much common sense to realize how much better they will be when gronk is back in there. Amendola actually healthy would sure help. And vereen will be back when it counts at least.

But much like ANY team in the league, take away their top 3 targets and they will struggle no matter what QB is in there.

It would be interesting to watch the saints if they sat graham, Colston, and sproles.

And I am saying this as someone who hates the patriots. But I don't hate being realistic.

 
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jsharlan said:
SeniorVBDStudent said:
Do you really want brady to accept the level of performance demonstrated by dobson thompkins etc? I sure dont. Yeah he's a dbag. Always has been. Dont care. Wide receivers are widgets. Perform as designed or be replaced.
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He doesn't have to accept it, but being a total dbag won't make the rookies better or build their confidence. He should have coached them up like a leader instead of just screaming at them.
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He didn't even scream at him. Dobson was on the other end of the bench. He was screaming at Edelman about Dobson. Lame.

 
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wilked said:
Maybe wait till they lose a game before calling them non-elite. Great teams find a way to win even when they don't play well.
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They've eeked out wins against two bad teams with two very pedestrian QBs making their first and second starts in the NFL. I think elite teams like SF, Den, ATL, NO, GB, Sea would've won either of these games by a million and looked elite.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
wilked said:
Maybe wait till they lose a game before calling them non-elite. Great teams find a way to win even when they don't play well.
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They've eeked out wins against two bad teams with two very pedestrian QBs making their first and second starts in the NFL. I think elite teams like SF, Den, ATL, NO, GB, Sea would've won either of these games by a million and looked elite.
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Elite teams WIN, nobody said anything about needing to look good doing it...............especially given that all the "weapons" currently at their disposal are like bringing a slingshot to a gun show.

Let's assume for a minute once they get to the playoffs (and they WILL make the playoffs) they have Gronk, Amendola, and Vereen healthy. I don't favor any of the other teams over them by all that much. They sure wouldn't be my favorite to win the super bowl, but I give them a very realistic chance.

But to answer the question of "are they elite"......no, they are not elite. What teams in the league ARE elite right now anyway?

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Not an elite team, need some new talent to help Brady - Bad GM'ing has put them here... Just my opinion
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On the flip side, good GM'ing is the only reason this thread exists. There are always ebbs and flows in the NFL. It's pretty hard for any team in the NFL to sustain excellence as long as the Pats did. It looks as though those days may be behind them as I don't see them as an elite team either.

 
mikel0254 said:
fantasycurse42 said:
Not an elite team, need some new talent to help Brady - Bad GM'ing has put them here... Just my opinion
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On the flip side, good GM'ing is the only reason this thread exists. There are always ebbs and flows in the NFL. It's pretty hard for any team in the NFL to sustain excellence as long as the Pats did. It looks as though those days may be behind them as I don't see them as an elite team either.
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ghostguy123 said:
fantasycurse42 said:
wilked said:
Maybe wait till they lose a game before calling them non-elite. Great teams find a way to win even when they don't play well.
Click to expand...
They've eeked out wins against two bad teams with two very pedestrian QBs making their first and second starts in the NFL. I think elite teams like SF, Den, ATL, NO, GB, Sea would've won either of these games by a million and looked elite.
Click to expand...
Elite teams WIN, nobody said anything about needing to look good doing it...............especially given that all the "weapons" currently at their disposal are like bringing a slingshot to a gun show.

Let's assume for a minute once they get to the playoffs (and they WILL make the playoffs) they have Gronk, Amendola, and Vereen healthy. I don't favor any of the other teams over them by all that much. They sure wouldn't be my favorite to win the super bowl, but I give them a very realistic chance.

But to answer the question of "are they elite"......no, they are not elite. What teams in the league ARE elite right now anyway?
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They aren't healthy fresh off the offseason, so the argument that they'll miraculously all be healthy at the end of a 17 week season makes no sense to me.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
wilked said:
Maybe wait till they lose a game before calling them non-elite. Great teams find a way to win even when they don't play well.
Click to expand...
They've eeked out wins against two bad teams with two very pedestrian QBs making their first and second starts in the NFL. I think elite teams like SF, Den, ATL, NO, GB, Sea would've won either of these games by a million and looked elite.
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This is the Seattle team that won 12-7 against the Panthers last week?

Is it the GB team that gave up 400 yards passing last week?

It's fun to talk and play hypotheticals, but results are what matter ultimately. If the Pats keep winning, they will continue to be considered elite. They have earned that right by consistently being one of the top 3 AFC teams for too many years to count.

 
wilked said:
fantasycurse42 said:
wilked said:
Maybe wait till they lose a game before calling them non-elite. Great teams find a way to win even when they don't play well.
Click to expand...
They've eeked out wins against two bad teams with two very pedestrian QBs making their first and second starts in the NFL. I think elite teams like SF, Den, ATL, NO, GB, Sea would've won either of these games by a million and looked elite.
Click to expand...
This is the Seattle team that won 12-7 against the Panthers last week?Is it the GB team that gave up 400 yards passing last week?

It's fun to talk and play hypotheticals, but results are what matter ultimately. If the Pats keep winning, they will continue to be considered elite. They have earned that right by consistently being one of the top 3 AFC teams for too many years to count.
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I'll concede they're still elite if they beat ATL in two weeks.

 
Not even close. They've beaten two rookie QBs making their 1st and 2nd starts by a combined 5 points. Their defense is also league average at best.

In week 12, if they have all of Gronk, Amendola, and Vereen back, maybe.

 
I still think so, yes. Sure they've struggled in both games so far, but they're 2-0. A bunch of teams wish they could play as bad as the Pats have and still win. Plus, they're also 2-0 in their division.

 
They are so blessed to be in the league's worst division every year. And they're barely squeezing out victories against their horrible division foes. If "genius" hadn't decided that signing Amendola for more money than Welker would have cost, maybe Brady wouldn't have the 'young receivers' excuse to fall back on. I love seeing Belichick's arrogance bite him in the ###.

 
pats window is closed.

The welker move was beyond stupid, the gronk/ahernan thing was bad luck.

barely beating two weak divisional opponents with rookie qbs is not impressive.

They will still win that awful division, expect another playoff loss

 
habsfan said:
They're an elite franchise down a couple of quarts in the talent department...
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How many elite franchises are there in the NFL?

Historically (recent anyway), they probably are in the upper crust. But the team right now is average.

 
They really sucked last night. Bellichick and Krafts arrogance has been exposed... to have a great QB with probably a 3-5 year window and not spend anything on free agency, surround him with totally not ready for prime time low caliber players, it's criminal! It's not like keeping Welker was the answer, it was keeping Welker AND adding Boldin, or Jennings or Wallace. Heck, mortgaging the farm and getting a couple of them. They seem to always trade down in the draft, easily skip over better players, including Dez Bryant, nickel and dime good proven talent while buying bargain junk in bulk and hoping to draw blood from a stone. It's no wonder so many non Pats fans can't stand the Pats...

Crazy as all that is they were a couple plays from winning 2 other SB's and have been perennial playoff contenders. I have a sneaking suspicion (and hope) that at some point this year they will get it together and be another favorite for a deep run- I wouldn't be surprised. The facts are that they didn't win with Welker, that what was going on was not getting it done. They totally shook things up at the WR position, somehow believing that a couple rookies could be big time successes, yet their track record in this area is abysmal. It's either mind boggling managerial ineptitude or hopefully there is a plan of some sort.

 
FUBAR said:
habsfan said:
They're an elite franchise down a couple of quarts in the talent department...
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How many elite franchises are there in the NFL?

Historically (recent anyway), they probably are in the upper crust. But the team right now is average.
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What I am alluding to is, "What is elite, exactly"? The whole topic is inflammatory. If you're asking the question in the first place, you likely don't think so.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
pats window is closed.

The welker move was beyond stupid, the gronk/ahernan thing was bad luck.

barely beating two weak divisional opponents with rookie qbs is not impressive.

They will still win that awful division, expect another playoff loss
Click to expand...
The bolded part is what I find odd. There are 32 teams. 20 of them will not get a chance to have a playoff loss this season. 11 of the others will have a playoff loss. So suggesting any given team won't win the SB isn't saying all that much.

If people have been paying attention the last few years, all that matters is getting hot at the end of the season. Winning a ton of games in Sept or Oct guarantees you nothing in the post season.

Look at the teams that have won recently. BAL, GB, NYG x 2, PIT. Did anyone other than their diehard fans see them at mid season or late season as top SB contenders?

I'm not saying the Pats are the best team in the league or will make a deep playoff run, but getting in the playoffs is enough to have a chance these days. And the Pats track record shows that most years they have played and won much better in the second hald of the schedule compared to their earlier games, so that might not be such a stretch to consider.

 
AngryPatriot said:
They really sucked last night. Bellichick and Krafts arrogance has been exposed... to have a great QB with probably a 3-5 year window and not spend anything on free agency, surround him with totally not ready for prime time low caliber players, it's criminal! It's not like keeping Welker was the answer, it was keeping Welker AND adding Boldin, or Jennings or Wallace. Heck, mortgaging the farm and getting a couple of them. They seem to always trade down in the draft, easily skip over better players, including Dez Bryant, nickel and dime good proven talent while buying bargain junk in bulk and hoping to draw blood from a stone. It's no wonder so many non Pats fans can't stand the Pats...

Crazy as all that is they were a couple plays from winning 2 other SB's and have been perennial playoff contenders. I have a sneaking suspicion (and hope) that at some point this year they will get it together and be another favorite for a deep run- I wouldn't be surprised. The facts are that they didn't win with Welker, that what was going on was not getting it done. They totally shook things up at the WR position, somehow believing that a couple rookies could be big time successes, yet their track record in this area is abysmal. It's either mind boggling managerial ineptitude or hopefully there is a plan of some sort.
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The fact was they did it get it done with Richard Seymour and it was mind boggling then why they would let that cornerstone get away (I understand the circumstances) when they knew Tom was in his prime window in 2009.

 
Anarchy99 said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
pats window is closed.

The welker move was beyond stupid, the gronk/ahernan thing was bad luck.

barely beating two weak divisional opponents with rookie qbs is not impressive.

They will still win that awful division, expect another playoff loss
Click to expand...
The bolded part is what I find odd. There are 32 teams. 20 of them will not get a chance to have a playoff loss this season. 11 of the others will have a playoff loss. So suggesting any given team won't win the SB isn't saying all that much.

If people have been paying attention the last few years, all that matters is getting hot at the end of the season. Winning a ton of games in Sept or Oct guarantees you nothing in the post season.

Look at the teams that have won recently. BAL, GB, NYG x 2, PIT. Did anyone other than their diehard fans see them at mid season or late season as top SB contenders?

I'm not saying the Pats are the best team in the league or will make a deep playoff run, but getting in the playoffs is enough to have a chance these days. And the Pats track record shows that most years they have played and won much better in the second hald of the schedule compared to their earlier games, so that might not be such a stretch to consider.
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If they were not in the worst division in football you would see their true colors.

They are far from elite. Poor draft day descisions and poor roster management.

 
Starting to question if the loss of Welker is bigger than anyone realized. The sample size is still very small, but if you include pre-2007 Brady has not been an elite fantasy QB at any time that he did not have Welker to throw to. It is only a handful of games post 2007, so no conclusions can be made yet, but it is worth watching.

Here is an article about the effect of Welker being out in 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/news/story?id=4794467

It is entirely possible that Welker is a much better receiver than he was credited for and it wasnt just Brady. It is also entirely possible that Brady is a far worse QB than talking heads would have you believe.

 
ImTheScientist said:
Anarchy99 said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
pats window is closed.

The welker move was beyond stupid, the gronk/ahernan thing was bad luck.

barely beating two weak divisional opponents with rookie qbs is not impressive.

They will still win that awful division, expect another playoff loss
Click to expand...
The bolded part is what I find odd. There are 32 teams. 20 of them will not get a chance to have a playoff loss this season. 11 of the others will have a playoff loss. So suggesting any given team won't win the SB isn't saying all that much.

If people have been paying attention the last few years, all that matters is getting hot at the end of the season. Winning a ton of games in Sept or Oct guarantees you nothing in the post season.

Look at the teams that have won recently. BAL, GB, NYG x 2, PIT. Did anyone other than their diehard fans see them at mid season or late season as top SB contenders?

I'm not saying the Pats are the best team in the league or will make a deep playoff run, but getting in the playoffs is enough to have a chance these days. And the Pats track record shows that most years they have played and won much better in the second hald of the schedule compared to their earlier games, so that might not be such a stretch to consider.
Click to expand...
If they were not in the worst division in football you would see their true colors.

They are far from elite. Poor draft day descisions and poor roster management.
Click to expand...
Completely ignoring their SB winning teams and starting with 2005, the Pats went 59-21 (.738) in the regular season against non AFC East teams. I'm failing to see where they were all time greats against divisional foes but a bunch of stiffs against the rest of the league.

 
Anarchy99 said:
ImTheScientist said:
Anarchy99 said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
pats window is closed.

The welker move was beyond stupid, the gronk/ahernan thing was bad luck.

barely beating two weak divisional opponents with rookie qbs is not impressive.

They will still win that awful division, expect another playoff loss
Click to expand...
The bolded part is what I find odd. There are 32 teams. 20 of them will not get a chance to have a playoff loss this season. 11 of the others will have a playoff loss. So suggesting any given team won't win the SB isn't saying all that much.

If people have been paying attention the last few years, all that matters is getting hot at the end of the season. Winning a ton of games in Sept or Oct guarantees you nothing in the post season.

Look at the teams that have won recently. BAL, GB, NYG x 2, PIT. Did anyone other than their diehard fans see them at mid season or late season as top SB contenders?

I'm not saying the Pats are the best team in the league or will make a deep playoff run, but getting in the playoffs is enough to have a chance these days. And the Pats track record shows that most years they have played and won much better in the second hald of the schedule compared to their earlier games, so that might not be such a stretch to consider.
Click to expand...
If they were not in the worst division in football you would see their true colors.

They are far from elite. Poor draft day descisions and poor roster management.
Click to expand...
Completely ignoring their SB winning teams and starting with 2005, the Pats went 59-21 (.738) in the regular season against non AFC East teams. I'm failing to see where they were all time greats against divisional foes but a bunch of stiffs against the rest of the league.
Click to expand...
Thanks for reposting easy to find data. We however are not speaking about the past, we are speaking of this year.

I know you are "failing to see" .... you only have to go as far as that Julius Thomas thread to see that.

 
The Duff Man said:
Starting to question if the loss of Welker is bigger than anyone realized. The sample size is still very small, but if you include pre-2007 Brady has not been an elite fantasy QB at any time that he did not have Welker to throw to. It is only a handful of games post 2007, so no conclusions can be made yet, but it is worth watching.

Here is an article about the effect of Welker being out in 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/news/story?id=4794467

It is entirely possible that Welker is a much better receiver than he was credited for and it wasnt just Brady. It is also entirely possible that Brady is a far worse QB than talking heads would have you believe.
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I think a larger sample size with Amendola and Gronkowski healthy and playing would be necessary to argue this successfully. The notion that great QBs can turn ground chuck into prime rib is a bunch of hyperbole.

 
Kool-Aid Larry said:
as of today, they aren't an elite team

but they don't need to be an elite team today, or ever, really
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Exactly. They get a free pass into the playoffs every year by virtue of the crappy competition within their division. And the AFC is not nearly as deep, so reaching the 2nd round of the playoffs seems almost certain, and a trip to the AFC championship game seems likely. They could easily make the superbowl by defeating only 1 strong opponent. They just need to be relatively healthy by the time the playoffs roll around.

 
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