This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
tourists <> illegal aliensnot even close to the same thing...uh yeah it does or do you think illegals dont have the right to free speech in this country? to have a gun? etc. Man if thats true I had better tell all my English friends, if the come into the US they will have no legal protections or rights at all! Man I think you just killed tourism!the Constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens...
Once again - there are other ways to solve this problem besides instituting laws that basically take a blowtorch to the constitution.
You're wrong.
(note: illegal non-citizens... I'm assuming it applies to legal visitors/travellers/etc., but someone who is not legally here is not a citizen, and thus no rights/privileges granted a citizen apply)
seriously, tell that to the people who are victims of real crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens... Was their loved one dying or being raped worth everyone else not pulling out an id every once in a while and needing to keep their ids on them?I think the tradeoff sounds worth it...I'm sure there are better ways of handling this, but this sounds better than what is currently happening...
Limp Ditka - I assume that you are better than this and realize that "illegals" won't be the only ones stopped, searched, and asked to provide proof of immigration status.Sorry, but a police state scares the #### out of me and it should scare the #### out of you too.
like?and care to explain why if these ideas are so apparent to you, they obviously aren't apparent to everyone else...
I'm not worried about the rights of the illegals that they actually catch with this. I'm worried about the infringement on the rights of citizens who will inevitably be caught in the same net.
American citizens weren't the focus of Tecmush's response, so they weren't the focus of mine.
the man said non-citizens not tourists, i brought tourists up. and at the end of the day it is the same thing. do you ever wonder why when someone is deported, during that process they have legal representation? free if they cant afford it. Ever wonder why we cant just go into a trailer park on the border and search everyones homes and kick them out? Do you think there are not municipalities that would do that if they could legally?Sure citizens are expressly granted some things non-citizens are not, such as the right to vote, but the protections offered by the constitution are for anyone on American soil, sorry bro, just the way it is. To those saying they already broke the law being here illegally, yep they did but its a misdemeanor. I hope you dont want to lose all your constitutional protections the moment you get a misdemeanor.tourists <> illegal aliensnot even close to the same thing...uh yeah it does or do you think illegals dont have the right to free speech in this country? to have a gun? etc. Man if thats true I had better tell all my English friends, if the come into the US they will have no legal protections or rights at all! Man I think you just killed tourism!
Obviously they aren't apparent to you. Anyone who has, you know, read history or basically thought about the constitution for 5 seconds sees why this is a horrible idea.
Yes.seriously, tell that to the people who are victims of real crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens... Was their loved one dying or being raped worth everyone else not pulling out an id every once in a while and needing to keep their ids on them?
I think the tradeoff sounds worth it...
I'm sure there are better ways of handling this, but this sounds better than what is currently happening...
And someone else already addressed the idea of going after employers who hire illegals. If you really want to stop/slow illegal immigration, then punish the employers who hire illegals. Throw a few CEOs in jail (yeah, I'm talking to you Mr CEO of Wal-Mart who chains illegals in the store mo-fo). That's a way better solution than instituting a police state.
Yea why would you be? They're just Mexicans.
I'd love to hear the logic that explains how the police miraculously only stop "illegals" and demand proof of immigration status.
again start putting CEO's in prison, not jail, prison for some long stretches. We have a lot of laws on the books relating to illegal hiring but its easier to pay the fines or contract it out than it is to not hire people illegally. Work on border protection, reform how we do immigration legally but if you make the companies work in a Pro-American, legal fashion you kill a lot of the reasons we have the illegal immigrants here in the first place.Not a politician alive, other than the odd congressperson, who will take that stance though.
Consider that a completely separate tangent. Point A: I would be deeply concerned about the rights of citizens were this law to pass. Point B: The Constitution does apply to illegals.Two completely separate arguments going on there.
Are they trespassing or committing some other crime?
It wasn't trolling. It's sarcastically presenting the proper way to view these laws - they are immoral.Troll elsewhere.
somebody is always committing some kind of crime, its on the books somewhere. I could walk into Borders, find some dude reading on his laptop and I could come up with something. Its truly odd to me how many people have no earthly clue how the Constitution works or what protections if afford and how careful we must be to guard those.
The morality of immigration laws is an entirely separate argument from the legality of this particular bill. Let's focus here, people.It wasn't trolling. It's sarcastically presenting the proper way to view these laws - they are immoral.
Irrelevant to the way the law is written, as the article states, immigration status can be investigated if the person is suspected of another crime already."Being illegal" is a crime in and of itself, and the police would seem to need probable cause/"reasonable suspicion" to investigate it.That said, I'd have to say, in otello's example, probable cause doesn't exist in that case and I'd think (hope) that the police would need stronger evidence than that.Which is why I'm asking if anyone knows what the law states.I mean, come on people. Can't we discuss this rationally? I think "Police State!" was worth 100 points on the "Jump to Conclusions" mat.
With this bill, "police state" is not a jump, it's reality. I'm not making any kind of slippery slope argument.
Exactly. That's the whole point of this bill. Currently people can't be asked for immigration status unless suspected of another crime. This bill would make it such that anyone could be stopped on the street if they look "suspicious".
hmm I wonder what qualifies as "suspicious" in Arizona? hahahah.
One of the best posts ever.
Actually, it does, which is part of my concern here. There needs to be a strict standard for probable cause/"reasonable suspicion". As it is now, police can search you, your possessions, and your premises at whim using nothing more than "I thought I smelled marijuana" as probable cause.
I'm sure this law will rectify that situation.
It does happen to some but it is wrong and we can fix that through oversight and regulation. Smell of marijuana is a hard one to pull of depending on context, show me your papers can and will happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. Good point on the strict standard though, of course in instances like these people wont care because they perceive this law as mostly affecting some "other", which to my mind is shamefully ignorant.
Rationality, much like myopia, can be a matter of opinion.
If what you wrote above is truly your objective in discussing this, then I share the concern you articulated. It would be great to see this law miraculously provide a stricter standard for probable cause. But the reality is that a bunch of reactionary nutjobs passed a law geared toward targeting illegal immigrants - with no fear of infringing the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens - and now you suggest that we calmly debate how this might be a good thing, because somehow we can hold out hope that this will clarify the probable cause standard?You could have just answered "no" too.
Yeah, we all know how immigration has been bad for this country the last 200 years.
I think you missed some sarcasm GB.
My objective in discussing this was to try and understand the law as proposed. Stricter interpretations of probable cause are a separate issue that are related, but for discussing another time. I was merely pointing out that the "police state" situation people claim the law creates already exists and no one's really complaining about it... that is, this law really offers no new police powers that don't already exist and aren't being abused to round up immigrants. The law really seems to just demand that police execute the laws already on the books.Calling people "nutjobs" for passing a law that no one has been able to explain, and no one here shows any sign of understanding the actual, real, implications of, doesn't help any discussion.If what you wrote above is truly your objective in discussing this, then I share the concern you articulated. It would be great to see this law miraculously provide a stricter standard for probable cause. But the reality is that a bunch of reactionary nutjobs passed a law geared toward targeting illegal immigrants - with no fear of infringing the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens - and now you suggest that we calmly debate how this might be a good thing, because somehow we can hold out hope that this will clarify the probable cause standard?
Think about your premise for 10 seconds. I mean, really think about it. Then tell me if it has any hope whatsoever of achieving your objective.
I know he was being sarcastic, but his avoidance of the issue wasn't helpful toward moving this to a rational discussion.
Ones who logically might not be?
I'll try to live up to your expectations from this point forward.
I'm curious how the police will be able to differentiate people in the country legally from illegal immigrants in sections 1,2, 4 & 5 above.
When the owner of the 7-11 calls, probably trespassing.
Should be interesting. Number 2 is really confusing to me. So basically the cop could say "I think youre an immigrant, prove otherwise" and if you dont have the correct papers youre screwed for at least the afternoon. Also video, let us know when youve read the bill.
sometimes we get lucky though now i feel obligated to at least mention the gestappo or something so there you go!
Then ticket/arrest them. If they are illegals, deport them.
