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Arizona passes nation's toughest immigration law (1 Viewer)

Saints-Man

Footballguy
Hundreds seek to fill vacant positions at Pro's Ranch Market

...

About 300 of the 1,500 total employees at the six Phoenix supermarkets were let go this week after an Immigration and Customs Enforcement audit found them to be working illegally.

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http://www.azfamily.com/news/Hundreds-seek...t-91880224.html...
I have a question that is a tangent to this discussion. Were the 300 people identified by the Immigration and Customs enforcement audit deported?
 

bg0546

Footballguy
I have a question that is a tangent to this discussion. Were the 300 people identified by the Immigration and Customs enforcement audit deported?
Don't know. I'm not even sure if they deport when they do these audits. This wasn't a workplace raid.
 

Saints-Man

Footballguy
I have a question that is a tangent to this discussion. Were the 300 people identified by the Immigration and Customs enforcement audit deported?
Don't know. I'm not even sure if they deport when they do these audits. This wasn't a workplace raid.
Is that the only way illegal immigrants may be deported? They have identified 300 people who are in this country illegally. This was done through a straightforward, legal manner. Yet, this people are not deported.

What has to be done to deport someone who is here illegally?

 

bg0546

Footballguy
I have a question that is a tangent to this discussion. Were the 300 people identified by the Immigration and Customs enforcement audit deported?
Don't know. I'm not even sure if they deport when they do these audits. This wasn't a workplace raid.
Is that the only way illegal immigrants may be deported? They have identified 300 people who are in this country illegally. This was done through a straightforward, legal manner. Yet, this people are not deported.

What has to be done to deport someone who is here illegally?
Why are you asking me? If the federal government was doing it's job and handling our immigration problem Arizona wouldn't feel compelled to pass it's own laws to protect itself. Write your congresspeople and ask these questions. After doing so please report back here. I'm as curious as you are about the answers.
 
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videoguy505

Footballguy
I have a question that is a tangent to this discussion. Were the 300 people identified by the Immigration and Customs enforcement audit deported?
Don't know. I'm not even sure if they deport when they do these audits. This wasn't a workplace raid.
Is that the only way illegal immigrants may be deported? They have identified 300 people who are in this country illegally. This was done through a straightforward, legal manner. Yet, this people are not deported.

What has to be done to deport someone who is here illegally?
As it stands now, someone in this country illegally pretty much has to show up at an INS facility with a plane ticket to Veracruz and ask if he can get a ride to the airport to get shipped out of here.
 

Saints-Man

Footballguy
I have a question that is a tangent to this discussion. Were the 300 people identified by the Immigration and Customs enforcement audit deported?
Don't know. I'm not even sure if they deport when they do these audits. This wasn't a workplace raid.
Is that the only way illegal immigrants may be deported? They have identified 300 people who are in this country illegally. This was done through a straightforward, legal manner. Yet, this people are not deported.

What has to be done to deport someone who is here illegally?
Why are you asking me? If the federal government was doing it's job and handling our immigration problem Arizona wouldn't feel compelled to pass it's own laws to protect itself.
I was not asking you specifically, just asking the question in general.I agree that the federal government seems to be willfully not doing its job in this regard. Whatever one thinks of the law, it is a situation like this that increases the level of frustration with the illegal immigration situation.

 

timschochet

Footballguy
I want to comment briefly on the fact, unsurprising to me, but often touted by supporters of this new law, that 70% of Arizonans approve of it, while 60% of all Americans approve of it. Back in 1994 in California, the numbers were even greater in support of Prop. 187, a measure which attempted to remove illegals from receiving any social services, until it was struck down by the courts. The support for 187 did not prevent a seismic shift in California politcs toward Democrats, as a direct result of this proposition, which has remained ever since (unfortunately.)

Public opinion is immediate and reactionary: it will always favor simplistic, direct solutions to any problem. The "tougher" the solution is, the more it will be supported. Civil liberties are never going to be supported by the public; Miranda rights, when they first appeared, were tremendously unpopular. So were most of the rulings of the Warren court which changed this country and put a much greater emphasis on individual rights against the state. This tends to be the reason why, for me personally, I never tout the fact that the public agrees with me- they usually don't, and when they do it makes me uncomfortable.

 

timschochet

Footballguy
I was watching the evening news and they talked to illegal's who were packing up and leaving AZ because of the new law.

They were moving to CA and CO, this law is already providing positive results for AZ.
On the contrary, it is providing positive results for CA and CO.
Why is it good for illegal immigrants to come to CA and CO?
I believe that illegal immigrants are a net positive for this country and for any state they come to. In basic terms, they provide a black market service which cuts into the attempt by the government to fix wages. If left unopposed, the fixing of wages create stagnation in the economy, as does any interference with the free exchange of goods. The presence of illegals willing to work for lower wages unregulated by the government answers this problem and allows us to be closer to the free market. The closer to the free market we are, the more prosperous we are.
 

phthalatemagic

Footballguy
I was watching the evening news and they talked to illegal's who were packing up and leaving AZ because of the new law.

They were moving to CA and CO, this law is already providing positive results for AZ.
On the contrary, it is providing positive results for CA and CO.
Why is it good for illegal immigrants to come to CA and CO?
I believe that illegal immigrants are a net positive for this country and for any state they come to. In basic terms, they provide a black market service which cuts into the attempt by the government to fix wages. If left unopposed, the fixing of wages create stagnation in the economy, as does any interference with the free exchange of goods. The presence of illegals willing to work for lower wages unregulated by the government answers this problem and allows us to be closer to the free market. The closer to the free market we are, the more prosperous we are.
I understand (and agree) about long term positive effects of illegal immigration, but you act as if there is short term positive effects too. What are they? Be specific.
 

hammerva

Footballguy
Happy Cinco de Mayo to all the illegals.
That must be an awkward holiday for the whites in Arizona. Getting all drunk pretending to be Mexican for one day while the next day harassing them to check if they are legals. Maybe this is the ##### in me but if I was legal and Mexican in Arizona, I would just wear a sign showing my immigrations papers saying 'here is your proof whitey. leave me alone"
 

phthalatemagic

Footballguy
Happy Cinco de Mayo to all the illegals.
That must be an awkward holiday for the whites in Arizona. Getting all drunk pretending to be Mexican for one day while the next day harassing them to check if they are legals. Maybe this is the ##### in me but if I was legal and Mexican in Arizona, I would just wear a sign showing my immigrations papers saying 'here is your proof whitey. leave me alone"
:unsure: Not awkward for me. Then again, my Mexican friends don't think I'm anti-immigrant. I think this is probably consistent for many folks around here. I wager the people that are for the law don't associate with hispanics/Mexicans too much. I've also never checked anyone's papers either.
 

TobiasFunke

Footballguy
I was watching the evening news and they talked to illegal's who were packing up and leaving AZ because of the new law.

They were moving to CA and CO, this law is already providing positive results for AZ.
That is good news. Like I always say- if you live here, learn English. Right?

 

Saints-Man

Footballguy
I want to comment briefly on the fact, unsurprising to me, but often touted by supporters of this new law, that 70% of Arizonans approve of it, while 60% of all Americans approve of it. Back in 1994 in California, the numbers were even greater in support of Prop. 187, a measure which attempted to remove illegals from receiving any social services, until it was struck down by the courts. The support for 187 did not prevent a seismic shift in California politcs toward Democrats, as a direct result of this proposition, which has remained ever since (unfortunately.)

Public opinion is immediate and reactionary: it will always favor simplistic, direct solutions to any problem. The "tougher" the solution is, the more it will be supported. Civil liberties are never going to be supported by the public; Miranda rights, when they first appeared, were tremendously unpopular. So were most of the rulings of the Warren court which changed this country and put a much greater emphasis on individual rights against the state. This tends to be the reason why, for me personally, I never tout the fact that the public agrees with me- they usually don't, and when they do it makes me uncomfortable.
Prop 187 had several components, and this was not the only one. From link,
1. All law enforcement agents who suspect that a person who has been arrested is in violation of immigration laws must investigate the detainee's immigration status, and if they find evidence of illegality they must report it to the attorney general of California, and to the federal Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS).2. Local governments are prohibited from doing anything to impair the fulfillment of this requirement.3. The attorney general must keep records on all such cases and make them available to any other government entity that wishes to inspect them.4. No one may receive public benefits until they have proven their legal right to reside in the country.5. If government agents suspected anyone applying for benefits of being illegal immigrants, the agents must report their suspicions in writing to the appropriate enforcement authorities.6. Emergency medical care is exempted, as required by federal law, but all other medical benefits have the requirements stated above.7. Primary and secondary education is explicitly included.
Multiple cases were consolidated and brought before Judge Mariana Pfaelzer, who in November 1997 found the law to be unconstitutional on the basis that it infringed the federal government's exclusive jurisdiction over matters relating to immigration.

Governor Wilson appealed the ruling, which brought the case to the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. However, in 1999, newly elected Democratic Governor Gray Davis had the case brought before mediation,[11] and then dropped the appeals process before the courts, effectively killing the law.
I really don't understand that ruling. The law was not deporting anyone, solely reporting activity to responsible officials.
 

Card Trader

Footballguy
Happy Cinco de Mayo to all the illegals.
That must be an awkward holiday for the whites in Arizona. Getting all drunk pretending to be Mexican for one day while the next day harassing them to check if they are legals. Maybe this is the ##### in me but if I was legal and Mexican in Arizona, I would just wear a sign showing my immigrations papers saying 'here is your proof whitey. leave me alone"
Yes, so awkward! And yes, we all "pretend to be Mexican" for a day. Cinco de Mayo is the day every year where us "whites" in Arizona all rush down to the border and sneak into Mexico, commit crimes and burden the tax payers of Mexico. The fact that people in here keep thinking that Arizona hates hispanics shows how truly ignorant everyone is to the issues of illegals in this state. Thanks for chiming in folks, but we don't hate the brown skinned peoples...regardless of what you want to concoct in your heads.Can't wait to get out of here and have a few Pacificos today :unsure:
 

jonessed

Footballguy
I want to comment briefly on the fact, unsurprising to me, but often touted by supporters of this new law, that 70% of Arizonans approve of it, while 60% of all Americans approve of it. Back in 1994 in California, the numbers were even greater in support of Prop. 187, a measure which attempted to remove illegals from receiving any social services, until it was struck down by the courts. The support for 187 did not prevent a seismic shift in California politcs toward Democrats, as a direct result of this proposition, which has remained ever since (unfortunately.)

Public opinion is immediate and reactionary: it will always favor simplistic, direct solutions to any problem. The "tougher" the solution is, the more it will be supported. Civil liberties are never going to be supported by the public; Miranda rights, when they first appeared, were tremendously unpopular. So were most of the rulings of the Warren court which changed this country and put a much greater emphasis on individual rights against the state. This tends to be the reason why, for me personally, I never tout the fact that the public agrees with me- they usually don't, and when they do it makes me uncomfortable.
Prop 187 had several components, and this was not the only one. From link,
1. All law enforcement agents who suspect that a person who has been arrested is in violation of immigration laws must investigate the detainee's immigration status, and if they find evidence of illegality they must report it to the attorney general of California, and to the federal Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS).2. Local governments are prohibited from doing anything to impair the fulfillment of this requirement.3. The attorney general must keep records on all such cases and make them available to any other government entity that wishes to inspect them.4. No one may receive public benefits until they have proven their legal right to reside in the country.5. If government agents suspected anyone applying for benefits of being illegal immigrants, the agents must report their suspicions in writing to the appropriate enforcement authorities.6. Emergency medical care is exempted, as required by federal law, but all other medical benefits have the requirements stated above.7. Primary and secondary education is explicitly included.
Multiple cases were consolidated and brought before Judge Mariana Pfaelzer, who in November 1997 found the law to be unconstitutional on the basis that it infringed the federal government's exclusive jurisdiction over matters relating to immigration.

Governor Wilson appealed the ruling, which brought the case to the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. However, in 1999, newly elected Democratic Governor Gray Davis had the case brought before mediation,[11] and then dropped the appeals process before the courts, effectively killing the law.
I really don't understand that ruling. The law was not deporting anyone, solely reporting activity to responsible officials.
It likely would have gone to the Supreme Court had Davis not tabled it. The Arizona law isn't going to be tabled so this issue will be revisited by a much higher court than it was in CA.
 

phthalatemagic

Footballguy
Happy Cinco de Mayo to all the illegals.
That must be an awkward holiday for the whites in Arizona. Getting all drunk pretending to be Mexican for one day while the next day harassing them to check if they are legals. Maybe this is the ##### in me but if I was legal and Mexican in Arizona, I would just wear a sign showing my immigrations papers saying 'here is your proof whitey. leave me alone"
Yes, so awkward! And yes, we all "pretend to be Mexican" for a day. Cinco de Mayo is the day every year where us "whites" in Arizona all rush down to the border and sneak into Mexico, commit crimes and burden the tax payers of Mexico.
:)
 

17seconds

root of all aliai
How does everyone feel about going through security at airports?

Do you feel you are being harassed? Are you going to protest?

I mean, they are checking our IDs, searching our stuff, and even doing body scans in some cases. And we are under no suspicion whatsoever that we are doing anything illegal.

 
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bg0546

Footballguy
How does everyone feel about going through security at airports?Do you feel you are being harassed? Are you going to protest?I mean, they are checking our IDs, searching our stuff, and even doing body scans in some cases.
And yet a wanted terrorist was able to board a plane despite being on the no fly list. Yeah, that (false) security at the airport is great. :goodposting:
 

17seconds

root of all aliai
For those of you not in the southwestern US that think all latinos will be profiled, you should know that it is quite easy to identify Mexican illegals. Nothing like Mexican Americans. When you see a 4ft tall fat Mexican lady walking down the street with 10 walmart bags while her husband walks 5ft in front of her carrying nothing, and 3 toddlers are behind both of them with neither parent watching if they are jumping in front of cars... um, you might want to ask for papers.

These are the people who will be profiled by cops. They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.

 

videoguy505

Footballguy
They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.
I'd move to Arizona and vote for everyone who signed this bill in every election, no matter how corrupt or incompetent they are, then donate 75% of my salary to the state instead of whatever meager amount they'd request via taxation, if they'd deport George Lopez.
 

timschochet

Footballguy
Yes, so awkward! And yes, we all "pretend to be Mexican" for a day. Cinco de Mayo is the day every year where us "whites" in Arizona all rush down to the border and sneak into Mexico, commit crimes and burden the tax payers of Mexico.

The fact that people in here keep thinking that Arizona hates hispanics shows how truly ignorant everyone is to the issues of illegals in this state. Thanks for chiming in folks, but we don't hate the brown skinned peoples...regardless of what you want to concoct in your heads.
It's astonishing how you can make a bigoted comment (highlighted) and in the same post call out people who point out bigotry.
 

timschochet

Footballguy
For those of you not in the southwestern US that think all latinos will be profiled, you should know that it is quite easy to identify Mexican illegals. Nothing like Mexican Americans. When you see a 4ft tall fat Mexican lady walking down the street with 10 walmart bags while her husband walks 5ft in front of her carrying nothing, and 3 toddlers are behind both of them with neither parent watching if they are jumping in front of cars... um, you might want to ask for papers.These are the people who will be profiled by cops. They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.
I don't find this funny. If it's meant seriously, that's even worse. Either way, it's the sort of stereotyping which gives credence to the assertions that this law was inspired by, and will lead to, bigotry.
 

Card Trader

Footballguy
It's astonishing how you can make a bigoted comment (highlighted) and in the same post call out people who point out bigotry.
It's astonishing that I actually read your posts, but I still do. You are really the last person to call someone else out on here.If you don't get the sarcasm behind my post then move along.
 

timschochet

Footballguy
I was watching the evening news and they talked to illegal's who were packing up and leaving AZ because of the new law.

They were moving to CA and CO, this law is already providing positive results for AZ.
On the contrary, it is providing positive results for CA and CO.
Why is it good for illegal immigrants to come to CA and CO?
I believe that illegal immigrants are a net positive for this country and for any state they come to. In basic terms, they provide a black market service which cuts into the attempt by the government to fix wages. If left unopposed, the fixing of wages create stagnation in the economy, as does any interference with the free exchange of goods. The presence of illegals willing to work for lower wages unregulated by the government answers this problem and allows us to be closer to the free market. The closer to the free market we are, the more prosperous we are.
I understand (and agree) about long term positive effects of illegal immigration, but you act as if there is short term positive effects too. What are they? Be specific.
Not sure how you distinguish between "short term" and "long term". There are positive effects to illegal immigration. There are negative effects to illegal immigration. I firmly believe the positive outweighs the negative.
 

17seconds

root of all aliai
They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.
I'd move to Arizona and vote for everyone who signed this bill in every election, no matter how corrupt or incompetent they are, then donate 75% of my salary to the state instead of whatever meager amount they'd request via taxation, if they'd deport George Lopez.
Agree. First of all he's not that funny. Second, I basically "boycott" everything he does after the routine he did on tainted lettuce in this HBO special. I can't find it on youtube but it was unbelievable. Basically he was saying (in an angry, serious way) that all of the illegals should be poisoning the lettuce on purpose. Screw white americans, basically. The guy is a total racist.My best friend (who is 2nd gen Mexican American) was in the audience at that show and he was appalled. Almost walked out.
 

17seconds

root of all aliai
For those of you not in the southwestern US that think all latinos will be profiled, you should know that it is quite easy to identify Mexican illegals. Nothing like Mexican Americans. When you see a 4ft tall fat Mexican lady walking down the street with 10 walmart bags while her husband walks 5ft in front of her carrying nothing, and 3 toddlers are behind both of them with neither parent watching if they are jumping in front of cars... um, you might want to ask for papers.These are the people who will be profiled by cops. They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.
I don't find this funny. If it's meant seriously, that's even worse. Either way, it's the sort of stereotyping which gives credence to the assertions that this law was inspired by, and will lead to, bigotry.
It was serious, and is how the cops will profile.If someone came into the US from Haiti, could you pick them out vs. an african american who has spent their entire life in the US? Come on now...It's not about race, it's about culture and country of origin.
 

Card Trader

Footballguy
For those of you not in the southwestern US that think all latinos will be profiled, you should know that it is quite easy to identify Mexican illegals. Nothing like Mexican Americans. When you see a 4ft tall fat Mexican lady walking down the street with 10 walmart bags while her husband walks 5ft in front of her carrying nothing, and 3 toddlers are behind both of them with neither parent watching if they are jumping in front of cars... um, you might want to ask for papers.These are the people who will be profiled by cops. They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.
I don't find this funny. If it's meant seriously, that's even worse. Either way, it's the sort of stereotyping which gives credence to the assertions that this law was inspired by, and will lead to, bigotry.
It was serious, and is how the cops will profile.If someone came into the US from Haiti, could you pick them out vs. an african american who has spent their entire life in the US? Come on now...It's not about race, it's about culture and country of origin.
Tim said the same thing about middle-eastern people after 9/11...life doesn't seem to be so bad for them here and it's almost like they get profiled LESS at airports than say...my 9 year old daughter or some 80 year old grandfather.
 

bigbottom

I put on my robe and wizard hat
For those of you not in the southwestern US that think all latinos will be profiled, you should know that it is quite easy to identify Mexican illegals. Nothing like Mexican Americans. When you see a 4ft tall fat Mexican lady walking down the street with 10 walmart bags while her husband walks 5ft in front of her carrying nothing, and 3 toddlers are behind both of them with neither parent watching if they are jumping in front of cars... um, you might want to ask for papers.

These are the people who will be profiled by cops. They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.
I don't find this funny. If it's meant seriously, that's even worse. Either way, it's the sort of stereotyping which gives credence to the assertions that this law was inspired by, and will lead to, bigotry.
It was serious, and is how the cops will profile.If someone came into the US from Haiti, could you pick them out vs. an african american who has spent their entire life in the US? Come on now...

It's not about race, it's about culture and country of origin.
Plenty of illegals and legals share the same culture and country of origin.

 

17seconds

root of all aliai
Tim said the same thing about middle-eastern people after 9/11...life doesn't seem to be so bad for them here and it's almost like they get profiled LESS at airports than say...my 9 year old daughter or some 80 year old grandfather.
All I know is a lot of people get profiled at airports and nearly everyone is fine with it. I've seen a 70yo grandmother getting a spread eagle patdown. A guy I work with from India who has a green card and owns a home in the US spent hours in a questioning room at LAX. Sometimes I get taken aside to get my backpack swabbed right before getting on the plane, which causes me more difficulty getting to my seat later...I have no issue profiling and inconveniencing people to control our illegal immigration problem.
 

bigbottom

I put on my robe and wizard hat
For those of you not in the southwestern US that think all latinos will be profiled, you should know that it is quite easy to identify Mexican illegals. Nothing like Mexican Americans. When you see a 4ft tall fat Mexican lady walking down the street with 10 walmart bags while her husband walks 5ft in front of her carrying nothing, and 3 toddlers are behind both of them with neither parent watching if they are jumping in front of cars... um, you might want to ask for papers.

These are the people who will be profiled by cops. They aren't stopping a guy in an F150 that looks like George Lopez.
I don't find this funny. If it's meant seriously, that's even worse. Either way, it's the sort of stereotyping which gives credence to the assertions that this law was inspired by, and will lead to, bigotry.
It was serious, and is how the cops will profile.If someone came into the US from Haiti, could you pick them out vs. an african american who has spent their entire life in the US? Come on now...

It's not about race, it's about culture and country of origin.
Tim said the same thing about middle-eastern people after 9/11...life doesn't seem to be so bad for them here and it's almost like they get profiled LESS at airports than say...my 9 year old daughter or some 80 year old grandfather.
I hear this fairly frequently, but I've seen little in my travels to indicate that this is the case.

 

bg0546

Footballguy
Tim said the same thing about middle-eastern people after 9/11...life doesn't seem to be so bad for them here and it's almost like they get profiled LESS at airports than say...my 9 year old daughter or some 80 year old grandfather.
All I know is a lot of people get profiled at airports and nearly everyone is fine with it. I've seen a 70yo grandmother getting a spread eagle patdown. A guy I work with from India who has a green card and owns a home in the US spent hours in a questioning room at LAX. Sometimes I get taken aside to get my backpack swabbed right before getting on the plane, which causes me more difficulty getting to my seat later...I have no issue profiling and inconveniencing people to control our illegal immigration problem.
Um, I got a spread eagle patdown two weeks ago when I flew. I'm pretty sure that just because people from India get patted down as well as Americans it doesn't mean they're being targeted.
 

Saints-Man

Footballguy
...

Tim said the same thing about middle-eastern people after 9/11...life doesn't seem to be so bad for them here and it's almost like they get profiled LESS at airports than say...my 9 year old daughter or some 80 year old grandfather.
I hear this fairly frequently, but I've seen little in my travels to indicate that this is the case.
One component of this is how many 80 years do you see when you travel? Since I would guess that most travel is for business purposes, 80 year olds traveling on an airplane is a very low percentage of travelers.My dad was given a full search, and he needed wheelchair assistance to travel to the gate. NSA gave him the full baton/pat down when he traveled when he traveled back to New Orleans.

ETA: My dad was 82 at the time.

 
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bigbottom

I put on my robe and wizard hat
...

Tim said the same thing about middle-eastern people after 9/11...life doesn't seem to be so bad for them here and it's almost like they get profiled LESS at airports than say...my 9 year old daughter or some 80 year old grandfather.
I hear this fairly frequently, but I've seen little in my travels to indicate that this is the case.
One component of this is how many 80 years do you see when you travel? Since I would guess that most travel is for business purposes, 80 year olds traveling on an airplane is a very low percentage of travelers.My dad was given a full search, and he needed wheelchair assistance to travel to the gate. NSA gave him the full baton/pat down when he traveled when he traveled back to New Orleans.

ETA: My dad was 82 at the time.
I'm not denying that octogenarians don't get searched from time to time. What I take issue with is the assertion that middle-easterners get profiled less than 80-year-olds and 9-year olds.

 

17seconds

root of all aliai
By the way, I find this very similar to the health care debate. On that, the right was completely overreacting to the realities of the bill. Not that much is changing with health care - there will be more options for more people. Yet the right saw it as an affront to our liberties.

Here the left is completely overreacting in the same way.

 

bg0546

Footballguy
By the way, I find this very similar to the health care debate. On that, the right was completely overreacting to the realities of the bill. Not that much is changing with health care - there will be more options for more people. Yet the right saw it as an affront to our liberties.Here the left is completely overreacting in the same way.
Had the right not reacted as they did we would have had a far more radical health care bill. It wasn't an overreaction. It was an attempt to minimize the damage and, to an extent, it worked.
 

Saints-Man

Footballguy
...

Tim said the same thing about middle-eastern people after 9/11...life doesn't seem to be so bad for them here and it's almost like they get profiled LESS at airports than say...my 9 year old daughter or some 80 year old grandfather.
I hear this fairly frequently, but I've seen little in my travels to indicate that this is the case.
One component of this is how many 80 years do you see when you travel? Since I would guess that most travel is for business purposes, 80 year olds traveling on an airplane is a very low percentage of travelers.My dad was given a full search, and he needed wheelchair assistance to travel to the gate. NSA gave him the full baton/pat down when he traveled when he traveled back to New Orleans.

ETA: My dad was 82 at the time.
I'm not denying that octogenarians don't get searched from time to time. What I take issue with is the assertion that middle-easterners get profiled less than 80-year-olds and 9-year olds.
That's fair. I have only flown 2 in the last 4 years so I have no experience in the matter.
 

tommyGunZ

Footballguy
How does everyone feel about going through security at airports?Do you feel you are being harassed? Are you going to protest?I mean, they are checking our IDs, searching our stuff, and even doing body scans in some cases. And we are under no suspicion whatsoever that we are doing anything illegal.
Not really the same thing as shaking down short hispanic women who are minding their own business walking home from Wal Mart.
 

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