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Arkansas SAFE act "The nation's first trial over a state's ban on gender-confirming care for children " (1 Viewer)

Stealthycat

Footballguy
Children (under 18) cannot buy tobacco, guns, drugs ..... they can't even buy spray paint etc. They cannot choose to enter a relationship with an adult (people would call that child molestation or even child abuse/rape). They can't get married in many cases. Children - under 18 as its defined here - cannot make many many choices/decisions and the reason is, they are not adults, they can be swayed and coerced and manipulated in their choices/decisions.

Arkansas has set the bar by saying " that bans gender-affirming medical procedures for transgender people under 18"

Sure to generate much debate. Me? I approve of it. Things done in transitioning can't be undone often, and the long term affects are unknown and children/kids shouldn't be making those choices.








Arkansas House Bill 1570 (HB 1570), also known as the Save Adolescents From Experimentation (SAFE) Act or Act 626, is a 2021 law in the state of Arkansas that bans gender-affirming medical procedures for transgender people under 18. The law also bans the use of public funds for and prohibits insurance from covering gender transition procedures, while doctors who provide treatment in violation of the ban can be sued for damages or professionally sanctioned. The measure makes Arkansas the first U.S. state to make gender-affirming medical care illegal (for people under 18)



LITTLE ROCK, Ark. -- The nation's first trial over a state's ban on gender-confirming care for children begins in Arkansas this week, the latest fight over restrictions on transgender youth championed by Republican leaders and widely condemned by medical experts.

U.S. District Judge Jay Moody will hear testimony and evidence starting Monday over the law he temporarily blocked last year prohibiting doctors from providing gender-confirming hormone treatment, puberty blockers or surgery to anyone under 18 years old. It also prevents doctors from referring patients elsewhere for such care.

The families of four transgender youth and two doctors who provide gender-confirming care want Moody to strike down the law, saying it is unconstitutional because it discriminates against transgender youth, intrudes on parents’ rights to make medical decisions for their children and infringes on doctors’ free speech rights. The trial is expected to last two weeks.

“As a parent, I never imagined I'd have to fight for my daughter to be able to receive medically necessary health care her doctor says she needs and we know she needs," said Lacey Jennen, whose 17-year-old daughter has been receiving gender-confirming care.

Arkansas was the first state to enact such a ban on gender-confirming care, with Republican lawmakers in 2021 overriding GOP Gov. Asa Hutchinson's veto of the legislation. Hutchinson, who had signed other restrictions on transgender youth into law, said the prohibition went too far by cutting off the care for those currently receiving it.

Multiple medical groups, including the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, oppose the bans and experts say the treatments are safe if properly administered.

But advocates of the law have argued the prohibition is within the state's authority to regulate medical practices.

“This is about protecting children," Republican Attorney General Leslie Rutledge said. “Nothing about this law prohibits someone after the age of 18 from making this decision. What we're doing in Arkansas is protecting children from life-altering, permanent decisions."

A similar law has been blocked by a federal judge in Alabama, and a Texas judge has blocked that state's efforts to investigate gender-confirming care for minors as child abuse. Children's hospitals around the country have faced harassment and threats of violence for providing gender-confirming care.

“This latest wave of anti-trans fever that is now spreading to other states started in Arkansas and it needs to end in Arkansas," said Holly Dickson, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas, which filed the lawsuit on behalf of the families.

A three-judge panel of the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in August upheld Moody's preliminary injunction blocking the ban's enforcement. But the state has asked the full 8th Circuit appeals court to review the case.




I'll follow this up with this link

 
Jon Stewart interviews AG Leslie Rutledge

transitioning is a big medical deal, it involves a lot of drugs etc .............. I support not putting kids on drugs, when they're 18 and adults, they can do what they choose

but lets not push this on kids please







A transsexual pioneer and human rights activist criticized modern trans activists and said children are facing "indoctrination."

Buck Angel, a 59-year-old with gender dysphoria who identified himself as "a transsexual man," told Fox News that when he began transitioning 30 years ago, there was a system and structure that ensured he was certain about his gender identity. He said that process, to children's detriment, has since deteriorated.

"Now we have trans with no gender dysphoria, no need for mental health care, self ID, affirmation therapy," Angel, who said he's "a huge advocate for mental health care," told Fox News. "That says to me on some level, some form of indoctrination."

Angel, who said he never felt female, told Fox News he was one of the first in Los Angeles to use hormones to transition. He eventually became a porn star before becoming an advocate for self-acceptance with a mission to re-define gender.



"I'm an elder in a community I helped build," Angel, who said he's faced significant blow back for speaking out, told Fox News. "Now I'm being told that I'm old and antiquated."

"Our community is failing our community," he added. "We’re not being loving and we're not being caring. We’re being weird."

Angel said his parents allowed him to socially transition when he was a kid, meaning he could make behavioral changes, like using a new name and dressing more masculine. He also said it was a long process before he was allowed to receive hormones in his late 20s.

"I see a vast, huge desire to fast track, for lack of a better term, these children into this space of trans kids" and put them on puberty blockers, Angel told Fox News. "I personally believe blocking puberty could be disastrous."

Puberty blockers are pharmaceuticals used off-label to prevent trans children from developing as their birth gender. If a child decides to transition, they may be given hormones to develop as their preferred gender.

The Department of Health and Human Services consider puberty blockers reversible, but studies have shown that they can have long-lasting side effects, including bone thinning. Adolescents who take hormone therapy can also become infertile, studies have shown.

"This isn't a game, and it's not something I can pick or choose," Angel said. "Once you choose this life and do this what I did, there really is no turning back."

Angel clarified that he knows some children would benefit from puberty blockers, but "it's very few and far. It's not the amount of kids that are immediately being put on blockers with no mental health care, no desire to sort of watch this kid kind of find their space."

Dr. Marci Bowers, a world-renowned vaginoplasty surgeon and president-elect of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health said trans children who are put on puberty blockers before having an orgasm could have trouble achieving one if they continue their transition and undergo genital surgery, though research on the topic is limited.

"And my fear about these young children who never experience orgasm prior to undergoing surgery are going to reach adulthood and try to find intimacy and realize they don’t know how to respond sexually," Bowers told Abigail Shrier, who authored the controversial book "Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters."

Additionally, Angel stressed that therapy is an essential part of transitioning. He said doctors shouldn't simply affirm a child's self-identification as trans.

"If a kid says they're trans, they're trans—oh, a kid says they're an elephant, they're an elephant? Are you kidding? That's how ridiculous it is," Angel told Fox News.


"It's dangerous and it's not therapy," he continued. "Therapy is pushback on some level. It's a pushback so that you can see, 'am I making the right choice?'"

Angel said immediately affirming a child's self-identification without questioning it is ultimately harmful.

"I see something as an elder in this community that is not right," he said. "It's hurting not only the community, but it's hurting a bunch of people who should never be in this space."

Angel also criticized rhetoric surrounding trans activism.

"The dishonesty is growing every day," Angel told Fox News.

He said phrases like "trans women are women," "uterus havers," and "period people" are "disrespectful to the women’s space, and secondly disrespectful to us."

"I am not a biological man," Angel said. "I never will be. I'm very honest about that, and it's why the world is accepting of me."

"So why are we teaching kids to lie?" he told Fox News.
 
but lets not push this on kids please
I agree with this statement. Nobody should be pushed to transition or take puberty blockers. But I also think that individuals health care should be up to them and their doctors, and their parents if they are children.

For the record, if I had a transgender child I would be very cautious about proceeding with any medical treatment. I would do a ton of research and get as many medical opinions as I could. But I don't believe I'm in any position to tell other people how to handle their own children.
 
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Children (under 18) cannot buy tobacco, guns, drugs ..... they can't even buy spray paint etc. They cannot choose to enter a relationship with an adult (people would call that child molestation or even child abuse/rape). They can't get married in many cases. Children - under 18 as its defined here - cannot make many many choices/decisions and the reason is, they are not adults, they can be swayed and coerced and manipulated in their choices/decisions.

Arkansas has set the bar by saying " that bans gender-affirming medical procedures for transgender people under 18"

Sure to generate much debate. Me? I approve of it. Things done in transitioning can't be undone often, and the long term affects are unknown and children/kids shouldn't be making those choices.








Arkansas House Bill 1570 (HB 1570), also known as the Save Adolescents From Experimentation (SAFE) Act or Act 626, is a 2021 law in the state of Arkansas that bans gender-affirming medical procedures for transgender people under 18. The law also bans the use of public funds for and prohibits insurance from covering gender transition procedures, while doctors who provide treatment in violation of the ban can be sued for damages or professionally sanctioned. The measure makes Arkansas the first U.S. state to make gender-affirming medical care illegal (for people under 18)



LITTLE ROCK, Ark. -- The nation's first trial over a state's ban on gender-confirming care for children begins in Arkansas this week, the latest fight over restrictions on transgender youth championed by Republican leaders and widely condemned by medical experts.

U.S. District Judge Jay Moody will hear testimony and evidence starting Monday over the law he temporarily blocked last year prohibiting doctors from providing gender-confirming hormone treatment, puberty blockers or surgery to anyone under 18 years old. It also prevents doctors from referring patients elsewhere for such care.

The families of four transgender youth and two doctors who provide gender-confirming care want Moody to strike down the law, saying it is unconstitutional because it discriminates against transgender youth, intrudes on parents’ rights to make medical decisions for their children and infringes on doctors’ free speech rights. The trial is expected to last two weeks.

“As a parent, I never imagined I'd have to fight for my daughter to be able to receive medically necessary health care her doctor says she needs and we know she needs," said Lacey Jennen, whose 17-year-old daughter has been receiving gender-confirming care.

Arkansas was the first state to enact such a ban on gender-confirming care, with Republican lawmakers in 2021 overriding GOP Gov. Asa Hutchinson's veto of the legislation. Hutchinson, who had signed other restrictions on transgender youth into law, said the prohibition went too far by cutting off the care for those currently receiving it.

Multiple medical groups, including the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, oppose the bans and experts say the treatments are safe if properly administered.

But advocates of the law have argued the prohibition is within the state's authority to regulate medical practices.

“This is about protecting children," Republican Attorney General Leslie Rutledge said. “Nothing about this law prohibits someone after the age of 18 from making this decision. What we're doing in Arkansas is protecting children from life-altering, permanent decisions."

A similar law has been blocked by a federal judge in Alabama, and a Texas judge has blocked that state's efforts to investigate gender-confirming care for minors as child abuse. Children's hospitals around the country have faced harassment and threats of violence for providing gender-confirming care.

“This latest wave of anti-trans fever that is now spreading to other states started in Arkansas and it needs to end in Arkansas," said Holly Dickson, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas, which filed the lawsuit on behalf of the families.

A three-judge panel of the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in August upheld Moody's preliminary injunction blocking the ban's enforcement. But the state has asked the full 8th Circuit appeals court to review the case.




I'll follow this up with this link



A little off point....but it would be interesting to see if they felt the same way about circumcision.
 
For another point of view from Scientific American:


What the Science on Gender-Affirming Care for Transgender Kids Really Shows​

[...]

THE HARMS OF DENYING CARE​

Data suggest the effects of denying that care are worse than whatever side effects result from delaying sex-assigned-at-birth puberty. And medical society guidelines conclude that the benefits of gender-affirming care outweigh the risks. Without gender-affirming hormone therapy, cisgender hormones take over, forcing body changes that can be permanent and distressing.

A 2020 study of 300 gender-incongruent young people found that mental distress—including self-harm, suicidal thoughts and depression—increased as the children were made to proceed with puberty according to their assigned sex.
By the time 184 older teens (with a median age of 16) reached the stage in which transgender boys began their periods and grew breasts and transgender girls’ voice dropped and facial hair began to appear, 46 percent had been diagnosed with depression, 40 percent had self-harmed, 52 percent had considered suicide, and 17 percent had attempted it—rates significantly higher than those of gender-incongruent children who were a median of 13.9 years old or of cisgender kids their own age.

Conversely, access to gender-affirming hormones in adolescence appears to have a protective effect. In one study, researchers followed 104 teens and young adults for a year and asked them about their depression, anxiety and suicidality at the time they started receiving hormones or puberty blockers and again at the three-month, six-month and one-year mark. At the beginning of the study, which was published in JAMA Network Open in February 2022, more than half of the respondents reported moderate to severe depression, half reported moderate to severe anxiety, and 43.3 percent reported thoughts of self-harm or suicide in the past two weeks.

[...]
 
I agree with this statement. Nobody should be pushed to transition or take puberty blockers. But I also think that individuals health care should be up to them and their doctors, and their parents if they are children.

For the record, if I had a transgender child I would be very cautious about proceeding with any medical treatment. I would do a ton of research and get as many medical opinions as I could. But I don't believe I'm in any position to tell other people how to handle their own children.


I think we can agree on a LOT of instances where we tell people how they can and cannot "raise" their children, don't we ??
 

What the Science on Gender-Affirming Care for Transgender Kids Really Shows​

[...]

THE HARMS OF DENYING CARE​

Data suggest the effects of denying that care are worse than whatever side effects result from delaying sex-assigned-at-birth puberty. And medical society guidelines conclude that the benefits of gender-affirming care outweigh the risks. Without gender-affirming hormone therapy, cisgender hormones take over, forcing body changes that can be permanent and distressing.

A 2020 study of 300 gender-incongruent young people found that mental distress—including self-harm, suicidal thoughts and depression—increased as the children were made to proceed with puberty according to their assigned sex.
By the time 184 older teens (with a median age of 16) reached the stage in which transgender boys began their periods and grew breasts and transgender girls’ voice dropped and facial hair began to appear, 46 percent had been diagnosed with depression, 40 percent had self-harmed, 52 percent had considered suicide, and 17 percent had attempted it—rates significantly higher than those of gender-incongruent children who were a median of 13.9 years old or of cisgender kids their own age.

Conversely, access to gender-affirming hormones in adolescence appears to have a protective effect. In one study, researchers followed 104 teens and young adults for a year and asked them about their depression, anxiety and suicidality at the time they started receiving hormones or puberty blockers and again at the three-month, six-month and one-year mark. At the beginning of the study, which was published in JAMA Network Open in February 2022, more than half of the respondents reported moderate to severe depression, half reported moderate to severe anxiety, and 43.3 percent reported thoughts of self-harm or suicide in the past two weeks.




I'd counter that its not health care at all to change ones body to conform to what one is currently mentally processing/believing/accpeting

I've often pointed to anorexia ... the mind believing something that is counter to what the body is and how we view it as a society
 

What the Science on Gender-Affirming Care for Transgender Kids Really Shows​

[...]

THE HARMS OF DENYING CARE​

Data suggest the effects of denying that care are worse than whatever side effects result from delaying sex-assigned-at-birth puberty. And medical society guidelines conclude that the benefits of gender-affirming care outweigh the risks. Without gender-affirming hormone therapy, cisgender hormones take over, forcing body changes that can be permanent and distressing.

A 2020 study of 300 gender-incongruent young people found that mental distress—including self-harm, suicidal thoughts and depression—increased as the children were made to proceed with puberty according to their assigned sex.
By the time 184 older teens (with a median age of 16) reached the stage in which transgender boys began their periods and grew breasts and transgender girls’ voice dropped and facial hair began to appear, 46 percent had been diagnosed with depression, 40 percent had self-harmed, 52 percent had considered suicide, and 17 percent had attempted it—rates significantly higher than those of gender-incongruent children who were a median of 13.9 years old or of cisgender kids their own age.

Conversely, access to gender-affirming hormones in adolescence appears to have a protective effect. In one study, researchers followed 104 teens and young adults for a year and asked them about their depression, anxiety and suicidality at the time they started receiving hormones or puberty blockers and again at the three-month, six-month and one-year mark. At the beginning of the study, which was published in JAMA Network Open in February 2022, more than half of the respondents reported moderate to severe depression, half reported moderate to severe anxiety, and 43.3 percent reported thoughts of self-harm or suicide in the past two weeks.




I'd counter that its not health care at all to change ones body to conform to what one is currently mentally processing/believing/accpeting

I've often pointed to anorexia ... the mind believing something that is counter to what the body is and how we view it as a society
that's a pretty good example. Anorexia is treated, medically. As it should be.
 
I agree with this statement. Nobody should be pushed to transition or take puberty blockers. But I also think that individuals health care should be up to them and their doctors, and their parents if they are children.

For the record, if I had a transgender child I would be very cautious about proceeding with any medical treatment. I would do a ton of research and get as many medical opinions as I could. But I don't believe I'm in any position to tell other people how to handle their own children.


I think we can agree on a LOT of instances where we tell people how they can and cannot "raise" their children, don't we ??
there are lots of instances. That doesn't mean they are all ok.
 
They can undo the effects of puberty?

they can completely change their bodies with drugs and surgery into something that doesn't even look like or function like it originally did - change it all except the DNA anymore

but that's exactly the point - you cannot undo the drugs/changing ... don't let kids incapable of making such a decision try and make it
 
Buck Angel, a 59-year-old with gender dysphoria who identified himself as "a transsexual man," told Fox News that when he began transitioning 30 years ago, there was a system and structure that ensured he was certain about his gender identity. He said that process, to children's detriment, has since deteriorated.

"Now we have trans with no gender dysphoria, no need for mental health care, self ID, affirmation therapy," Angel, who said he's "a huge advocate for mental health care," told Fox News. "That says to me on some level, some form of indoctrination."
How about that we make sure that we have that structure in place, go after providers that circumvent it instead of punishing the vast majority of trans youth because of a few exceptional cases. And if I am wrong about where the exceptions are (I'm not but we can pretend otherwise) then let us correct that.
 
They can undo the effects of puberty?

they can completely change their bodies with drugs and surgery into something that doesn't even look like or function like it originally did - change it all except the DNA anymore

but that's exactly the point - you cannot undo the drugs/changing ... don't let kids incapable of making such a decision try and make it
If you can simply undo puberty, then why cannot you not undo hormone treatments?
 
well yes, my point is society DOES tell parents and children what's acceptable at what ages and what isn't, don't we ? (in many examples)
Sure, for a good reason.

It is not a good reason to deny about 1 or 2 percentage of the population the care that they need because
A tiny few later change their minds​
Society is too lazy to regulate the providers​
The masses in society don't understand what it means to be trans​
Society is running out of groups to flex their intolerance​
 
I agree with this statement. Nobody should be pushed to transition or take puberty blockers. But I also think that individuals health care should be up to them and their doctors, and their parents if they are children.

For the record, if I had a transgender child I would be very cautious about proceeding with any medical treatment. I would do a ton of research and get as many medical opinions as I could. But I don't believe I'm in any position to tell other people how to handle their own children.


I think we can agree on a LOT of instances where we tell people how they can and cannot "raise" their children, don't we ??
Sure. I am sure there are some instances where we would agree here. Do you have some examples? Before you throw out drinking ages and things of that nature, I will disagree that is telling parents how they can raise their children. Parents can and do allow their underage children to drink. I have no issue with that as long as it is done responsibly.
 
Sure, for a good reason.

It is not a good reason to deny about 1 or 2 percentage of the population the care that they need because
A tiny few later change their mindsSociety is too lazy to regulate the providersThe masses in society don't understand what it means to be transSociety is running out of groups to flex their intolerance


do you think all age limits/restrictions should be dismantled ?

its not an intolerance thing ........ some people see this as child abuse, some people see their kids being influenced and led by books, drag shows, tv/media and they don't want those influences on their kids because they are KIDS and are highly influential at early stages in lives

its a wait until 18 law .......... why anyone would object to that ?
 
Are there any topics where your takes aren’t totally bonkers?

what is your answer to the same question ?

I mean we should all agree trans is a mental issues obviously - the mind believing its something that the body physically isn't, right ? isn't that what anorexia is too ?

again, this law is about kids ...
 
why would we expect children to have to do such a thing ?
Why should we not force a child to wait until it is too late to undo permanent changes to their bodies that have been identified as being counterproductive to their health? A threat to their life itself?

Should we say that children with cancer should be forced to wait until they are eighteen before we stop the spread with radiation treatments or disfiguring their bodies with surgeries? Just because this example is easier for us regular folks to understand doesn't mean that the considerations should be different.
 
Are there any topics where your takes aren’t totally bonkers?

what is your answer to the same question ?

I mean we should all agree trans is a mental issues obviously - the mind believing its something that the body physically isn't, right ? isn't that what anorexia is too ?

again, this law is about kids ...
Wow, so much wrong here, and its almost hard to believe how wrong you are. This is basically a real issue that requires none of your usual silliness.

First off: Basically shrugging off mental health issues or minimizing them regardless of the cause is kind of obtuse on your part. Also the "we should all agree" is a pretty good straw man starter especially since it seems you have really no knowledge on the subject.

This law is not about "the kids". This law is about fearmongering. If you wanted to make a law about "the kids" how about starting with guns? Guns seem to be doing more damage to kids in school that what bathroom someone uses.
 
some people see this as child abuse
Then prosecute when it is child abuse. When children and their parents are mislead or coerced into harmful treatments.

We don't ban parents living in the same household as children because a subset of parents abuse their children. We don't ban schools, day care centers, doctor visits, children at church, youth sports, etc., etc. because there are a few exceptional people abusing children.

, some people see their kids being influenced and led by books, drag shows, tv/media and they don't want those influences on their kids because they are KIDS and are highly influential at early stages in lives
Trying to sweep stuff away is a bad way to raise children.

its not an intolerance thing
unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
 
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100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
I think on this issue the medical professionals are pushing snake oil to parents. Not a single one of them is going to say, "No, your kid shouldn't do this".
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
I think on this issue the medical professionals are pushing snake oil to parents. Not a single one of them is going to say, "No, your kid shouldn't do this".
I think you need to show your work on this one
 
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.

Eh, take non permanent measures with children. If a biological male thinks he's female let him dress, act, and grow up as a female. If, after turning 18, he still thinks he's female pursue more permanent measures. But making permanent changes before a child is fully formed is abusive IMO.
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
I think on this issue the medical professionals are pushing snake oil to parents. Not a single one of them is going to say, "No, your kid shouldn't do this".
I think you need to show your work on this one
Should I provide anecdotal evidence like you did? :P
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
Considering the data continually tells us the suicide rate is significantly higher with Trans people, I reject this conclusion
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
Considering the data continually tells us the suicide rate is significantly higher with Trans people, I reject this conclusion
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
Considering the data continually tells us the suicide rate is significantly higher with Trans people, I reject this conclusion
I look forward to the survey results from the 2015 New England Patriots fan club that state unequivocally that the Patriots are the most popular team in the US.
 
I read the appellate court's opinion upholding the District Court's injunction a couple months ago and would say I expect the State has a difficult path ahead in defending the constitutionality of this statute. There's no dispute the law discriminates on the basis of gender, so Arkansas has a high burden to meet - a showing of an "exceedingly persuasive justification” for the law. On its face the goal of "protecting children" would surely meet this burden, but I think its going to be hard for Arkansas to win in the face of strong contrary evidence from more traditionally accepted experts like the AMA and APA.

The district court found that the Act prohibits medical treatment that conforms with “the recognized standard of care for adolescent gender dysphoria,” that such treatment “is supported by medical evidence that has been subject to rigorous study,” and that the purpose of the Act is “not to ban a treatment [but] to ban an outcome that the State deems undesirable.” The record at this stage provides substantial evidence to support these factual findings.


I think a state could probably pass constitutional review with a less strict law - one that regulated the treatment moreso than outright banning it.
 
Again, I'll leave it to someone else to explain, but the bottom line is that this is simply another example of fearmongering on the right to simply abdicate from solving real problems in America.

fear mongering ?

stopping children from life making life changing decisions is fear? what other restrictions on children do you call fear mongering ?

or are you just resorting to name calling as default ?
 
Why should we not force a child to wait until it is too late to undo permanent changes to their bodies that have been identified as being counterproductive to their health? A threat to their life itself?

Should we say that children with cancer should be forced to wait until they are eighteen before we stop the spread with radiation treatments or disfiguring their bodies with surgeries? Just because this example is easier for us regular folks to understand doesn't mean that the considerations should be different.


you're now comparing trans to cancer ?
 
Wow, so much wrong here, and its almost hard to believe how wrong you are. This is basically a real issue that requires none of your usual silliness.

First off: Basically shrugging off mental health issues or minimizing them regardless of the cause is kind of obtuse on your part. Also the "we should all agree" is a pretty good straw man starter especially since it seems you have really no knowledge on the subject.

This law is not about "the kids". This law is about fearmongering. If you wanted to make a law about "the kids" how about starting with guns? Guns seem to be doing more damage to kids in school that what bathroom someone uses.

again the comparison to mental health ............ are you saying trans is a mental health disorder ?

and ummmmm we don't allow kids to buy guns or ammunition, or tobacco or alcohol, we don't let them write their own prescription drugs etc etc because they're not adults, not capable of being trusted with really important things like that, right ?
 
unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?
 
100% in agreement with this law
Yep. We have the duty to protect the most vulnerable among us - children - from other adults and from themselves. That's not even debatable.

Lots of people approving of transgenderism for kids are going to be on the wrong side of history on this one. They already are. People are aghast now. 30 years from now they're going to be saying, "WTF were you thinking? All of this so you could get some virtues?"
I tend to leave these things to medical professionals and the families they treat. I know several families that have dealt with this. Some were kids as young as 9, others were teenagers. None of those families just haphazardly decided to get treatment for their children. There were months/years of therapy and family struggle. These families range from hardcore MAGA lovers to the hippiest of hippies. None of them were "happy" about this, but they are happy that their children are no longer suicidal or constantly depressed.

Follow the recommendations of professionals. Ignore the politics.
I think on this issue the medical professionals are pushing snake oil to parents. Not a single one of them is going to say, "No, your kid shouldn't do this".
I think you need to show your work on this one
Should I provide anecdotal evidence like you did? :P
Sure. I am providing stories from the side of the families. Do you have any that show doctors are pushing this on kids? If they are, then those doctors should be nowhere near children and should lose their medical license
 
unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?
I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?
 
unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?
I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?
Now do vaccines
 
Wow, so much wrong here, and its almost hard to believe how wrong you are. This is basically a real issue that requires none of your usual silliness.

First off: Basically shrugging off mental health issues or minimizing them regardless of the cause is kind of obtuse on your part. Also the "we should all agree" is a pretty good straw man starter especially since it seems you have really no knowledge on the subject.

This law is not about "the kids". This law is about fearmongering. If you wanted to make a law about "the kids" how about starting with guns? Guns seem to be doing more damage to kids in school that what bathroom someone uses.

again the comparison to mental health ............ are you saying trans is a mental health disorder ?

and ummmmm we don't allow kids to buy guns or ammunition, or tobacco or alcohol, we don't let them write their own prescription drugs etc etc because they're not adults, not capable of being trusted with really important things like that, right ?
so you show that you didn’t read anything anyone posts…. KIDS DO NOT MAKE THIS DECISION BY THEMSELVES OR FLIPPANTLY. THEY MAKE THIS CHIOICE WITH THEI FAMILY AND WITH THEIR PHYSICIAN.

again, this is all about fear Mongering. Plain and simple.
 
Wow, so much wrong here, and its almost hard to believe how wrong you are. This is basically a real issue that requires none of your usual silliness.

First off: Basically shrugging off mental health issues or minimizing them regardless of the cause is kind of obtuse on your part. Also the "we should all agree" is a pretty good straw man starter especially since it seems you have really no knowledge on the subject.

This law is not about "the kids". This law is about fearmongering. If you wanted to make a law about "the kids" how about starting with guns? Guns seem to be doing more damage to kids in school that what bathroom someone uses.

again the comparison to mental health ............ are you saying trans is a mental health disorder ?

and ummmmm we don't allow kids to buy guns or ammunition, or tobacco or alcohol, we don't let them write their own prescription drugs etc etc because they're not adults, not capable of being trusted with really important things like that, right ?
so you show that you didn’t read anything anyone posts…. KIDS DO NOT MAKE THIS DECISION BY THEMSELVES OR FLIPPANTLY. THEY MAKE THIS CHIOICE WITH THEI FAMILY AND WITH THEIR PHYSICIAN.

again, this is all about fear Mongering. Plain and simple.
Man you guys really are quite inconsistent with this let the family and physician make decisions and the govt stay out of it
 
unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?
I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?
Now do vaccines
Are you leaving out the "with consultation from their doctors" in your analysis?
 

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