Mario Kart
Footballguy
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Atlanta fires Jim Mora (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mario Kart
- Start date
suchislife
Footballguy
However as a Vick owner in a keeper league, the fantasy discussion would be most appreciated here. We all know Vick is not a top tier NFL QB, but his FFL value can not be dismissed. The thought of him playing under his 3rd HC can not bode well for 2007.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
It is completely and totally impossible to discuss the fantasy implications of firing Mora since there is no idea who will replace him. Until there's a coach in place no one can know or even specualte with any iota of accuracy what will happen. That's like asking how your FF team will do before you even draft it.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
I disagree. I think this is terrific news for Vick's dynasty value. Depending on the next head coach and system, Vick should be in an offense much more suited to his talents than the West Coast offense. His game has regressed under Mora. A change should rejuvenate Vick. I will target Vick in dynasty leagues if a deal makes sense.
Wrong.Vick got worse under Greg Knapp. Mora being gone, means Knapp is LONG gone. That's very good news for Vick. And regardless who replaces him, there will be a strong offensive minded OC or HC to come in. Vick is the jewel of the franchise; they will hire people to take advantage of his skills. The first question to any new HC is "How will you get the most out of Vick?". I suspect they'll go a defensive head coach, then be free to hire the best offensive mind they can from college to be the OC.It's like saying, "Art Shell leaving isn't good news for Jordan, we have to wait to see who replaces him". Uhhh, when you're at rock bottom, anyone is better.Regardless, this is a welcome relief to Falcon fans.
suchislife
Footballguy
Huh. And here I thought some Atl homers might be able to post some possible replacements being mentioned and such. You're right...there's no way to know how our FFL teams will do before our drafts. We should all stop all of these rediculous discussions on these boards. Thanks for your input.
Actually Schuab looked like ### playing against 3rd string eagles.52% passing, 6 career ints, 6 career tds. This guy is the new Billy Volek. Hopefully some sucker will give us a 1st for this guy.
suchislife
Footballguy
Schuab didn't overly impress me during yesterday's game, and I was surprised to see the mediocre career stats given all the support he gets here. Aikman did his best during the broadcast though to support Schuab without coming right out and saying it. I got the impression that Aikman clearly thought Schuab was the better fit for the Falcons.In Schuab's support, he came off the bench and probably doesn't get much work with the starters in a typical week. His timing clearly looked off.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Wrong.It may very well be better and a relief, but it is impossible to discuss it with any accuracy. Go ahead and give your predictions for Vick's stats and the reasons behind them. I'll wait. You can't because "It can't get any worse" is not true, nor is it a barometer of what will happen.
A new coach is going to come in and make the receivers catch better?
The chances that a new coach and OC imprfoves the Falcons is pretty high, but a new coach does not automatically make things better. Just ak the Browns. And until there is a coach in place, ther can be no acurate discussion about the outcome. Period. You can guess, extrapolate, assume and/or predict by deduction but you will not and cannot do it with any sense of accuracy.
suchislife
Footballguy
Hey Mad,I don't think anyone is asking for, nor giving, any projected stats. Merely looking for more Atlanta insight as to the situation and how it might impact the Falcons players. In my case, I'm interested in MVick and who's being discussed as his replacement and what type of offense they may bring with them.
If you're not interested in discussing it, please feel free to skip over this thread.
Are you ######ed?Accuracy in predictions? Do you know what oxymoron means?
It's Jan 1st 2007 and you're worried about accuracy. *lol* 99% of the posts here are just opinions, gut feelings, rants, whines, things pulled out of their ###. Go spam this garbage on every thread on FBGs. And please post your accurate projections for every nfl player, it would help VBD.
Again, Vick regressed under this coaching staff. They are now gone. The next staff, the main question will be how will you use Vick. Vick's situation will not get worse, that was Knapp trying to force an offense that didn't fit him down this throat. Reeves said when he was fired, that it would set back Vick years. And it did. Blank will not make the same mistake twice.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Yes Vick regressed to career (and NFL) highs in rushing yards and TDs. What a slide.
delusional
Footballguy
like the other coaches that been there while vick was qb...nothing will happen, it will be the same thing year after year.
unless their defense improves drastically they wont make the playoffs cause that is what carried them their before.
unless their defense improves drastically they wont make the playoffs cause that is what carried them their before.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I would love to see Atlanta hire Norv Turner. Heavy emphasis on the run, take your shots downfield off the play action, sustain drives and keep the defense fresh. It would be a great fit for Atlanta and a nice challenge for Turner to try to maximize Vick's value.
jetpack
Footballguy
Not sure if its been discussed elsewhere, but I'd expect the Falcons to gun for ATL local boy Ken Whisenhunt - the Steelers OC. He'll also be a strong candidate to replace Cowher obviously. Not sure of the impact that Whis would have on the Falcons offense but he does like trick plays when he's got the personnel to pull it off (think Randel-el last year). Very creative guy. I'd say Vick's value goes up with him as coach.
MaybeI would imagine since Vick is such a commodity, Blank would have to be consulted first. In season, maybe a coach can just bench a player but in the offseason plans....I think Blank would have to be involved. It could cost him big $ if Schaub doesn't pan out.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I can't believe anyone is seriously talking about replacing one of the best athletes of his generation, about to come into his prime at age 26, with a backup QB who has these lifetime stats. I don't understand all the Vick hate.
Okay genius, explain why Vick threw his career high passing yards and career high qb rating in his 2nd year?Vick regressed as a passer under Knapp. End of story. It's taken him 3 years just to get back to where he was in his 2nd year (still not all the way there). Vick was a better passing QB under Reeves. I've seen all his games under both coaches. This offense was a mess.
IMOAs a game manager he's like a high school QB compared to Tom Brady. Sometimes the runs are at the perfect time and he engineers a perfect "nail in the coffin" type drive. Generally though it just makes me shake my head in disbelief.
I thought Kordell was just awful as a game manager, worse than Vick, but Vick's starting to remind me of him. He was (at the time) a supreme talent too.
It's almost like having a bad coach and a great team.
Vick really needs someone like BB or Parcells to "beat him up" over this in practice and with game tapes. They've done it to lots of young QBs. IIRC Vick was better at this under Reeves and improving. He got hurt and his progress as a game manager just stopped.
I'm not sure why Vick becomes the focus of any Falcon dicussion.
Mora has done very little as a HC in the NFL. He's a bafoon off the field, and on the field his team lack heart and desire. (late season colapses, horrible rush D)Are people going to be breaking down doors to get Mora as their HC? I doubt it.Again, the QB position with the Falcons is of little concern.O-line is poor at pass protection.No playmakers on the outside.RBs lack size, played a role in the worst RZ conversion rate in the league.Defensive secondary is thin, safety position is poor.LBs are awful. Hartwell is stealing money.D-line was horrible against the run, decent at pressuring the QB. JA being out was a big factor.The offensive play calling was beyond approach. Worst RZ conversion in the league? With the greatest running QB of all time? With the "best" rushing team in the league? The numbers don't add up.Vick needs to be more consistent.So fix the o-line, WRs, RBs, DBs, LBs, D-line, OC, then lets fix the QB.Bottom line it's one of the worst Ds in the league. They spent a bunch of money on JA/Hartwell, and both have been disappointments. They finally admitted defeat (McKay used to get on local radio saying they don't want a big run stuffing oversize Dlineman) and got Jackson. While being big, he didn't have much of an effect stopping the run. Once you get the D respectable, you need a playmaker on offense besides Crumpler and Vick. The fact you can't run the ball in the RZ, is a huge issue. They should have stayed at the 15th pick and taken Maroney. Duckett while being a huge pile of suck at least could punch it in on the goaline. It should have been trivial to toss out a 5 WR set on the 5 yard line, and just let Vick pick his hole and run it in. Instead they'd call crossing patterns for Crumpler who usually drew triple coverage.The Falcons were poorly coached, horrible D, lacking at skill positions, along with an offensive that was a poor match to a unique QB. On the things to focus/fix on the Falcons, Vick isn't even on the list. You have 3-4 good players around piles and piles of crap. Once you clean the crap up, then we can focus on the 3-4 main players. But to blame this mess on Vick/Hall/Crumpler is a joke. That's the only good things we have going for the franchise. There is not a sensible Falcon fan who loses sleep over Vick. As people said preseason, the main worry is the defense. Which sucked again.
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Iron Mike Tomczak
Footballguy
What will happen?
The Falcons will become a better team.
The Falcons will become a better team.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I thought that he got a new coach after Reeves? Doesn't everyone improve when they get a new coach? I mean, from your posts I was led to believe that any new coach is by definition an improvement no matter who it is. And you can therefore predict improvement and success regardless of who it might be. So therefore, Mora must've been a great coach, why'd they fire him?And BTW, cursing, name calling and gross overgeneralizations might make you right in the Michael Irvin School of Debate but not here. I'm sure that everyone agrees that posting the same reply to two almost identical threads is very far from spamming all of FBG. It makes me really wonder who the ######ed one here is. I take that back, I know.
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Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Mora and Knapp should have been fired the moment they announced they were installing the West Coast Offense for Vick. Even the casual fan could probably sense the impending disaster.
You have a QB whose strengths are running and throwing the deep ball. His weaknesses are precision and accuracy. So what do they do? Put him in an offense that doesn't work unless the QB displays a high level of precision and accuracy.
That was probably the dumbest decision of the last five years that didn't come out of Detroit or Oakland.
You have a QB whose strengths are running and throwing the deep ball. His weaknesses are precision and accuracy. So what do they do? Put him in an offense that doesn't work unless the QB displays a high level of precision and accuracy.
That was probably the dumbest decision of the last five years that didn't come out of Detroit or Oakland.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Mora was a defensive coach and presumably was hired for his credentials on that side of the ball. The blame should be spread equally among Knapp for installing an ill-fitting offense, Mora for hiring Knapp (presuming he knew Knapp was gonna install the WCO), and whomever hired Mora for not getting his ducks in a row re what Mora might do with the offense.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Whether he regressed as a passer wasnt what was in question. The question was how would it affect him fantasy wise. I think there is a very good chance his numbers could go way down next year fantasy wise. He would be learning yet another new offense and he could very well struggle, as making reads and learning plays has not shown to be his strongest skill, even dating back to his VT days. However that could lead to sginificant improvement in the following year if Vick could get into the 25-27 td range and 3300-3400 yard range.billyjoe said:
Tau837
Footballguy
Focusing on the bolded statement.First off, for this discussion, I will assume that he plays 16 games. He did that for the first time this year, and has played in 53 of the Falcons' last 55 games. More importantly, it makes it easier to discuss his outlook.
His rushing yards will probably go down, since he set a QB rushing record. In his worst season for rushing yards to date (2005), he averaged 40 rushing yards per game. This year, he averaged 65 rushing yards per game, and his career average is 52 per game. It seems reasonable to project at 45 per game. Heck, that's probably conservative.
He only scored 2 rushing TDs this season in 123 rushing attempts. Before this season, he averaged one rushing TD per 21 rushing attempts. It seems reasonable to project him for 4 rushing TDs.
So I'd look for 720/4 rushing. In many leagues, that's 96 fantasy points from rushing alone. All of that is likely to be reasonably independent of the offense IMO.
As for passing, first please note the following:
1. Atlanta attempted only 416 passes this season, which was last in the league.
2. Vick completed only 52.7% this season, a career low. In the 3 previous seasons in which he was the primary QB, Vick completed 54.9%, 56.4%, and 55.3% of his passes.
3. Vick averaged only 6.4 yards per attempt this season. It is true that last season he averaged 6.2 ypa, but in his other two seasons as the primary starter, he averaged 7.0 and 7.2, and his career ypa is 6.65.
Given the above, how much worse can we reasonably expect Vick to be next season? The way I see it, they will likely attempt more passes, and Vick should improve his completion percentage and ypa, both of which should mean more yards. OK, he only had 2474 this season, so saying he'll get more is not necessarily saying much... but let's say he gets 420 attempts and apply his career ypa... that's 2791 passing yards. I'll round up to 2800. IMO that is a safe projection (again, assuming health), and he could easily surpass that with better coaching. And I haven't even mentioned better help from his teammates.
It stands to reason that Vick's receivers can only get better next season. First off, Finneran will hopefully be back. He had knee surgery on August 2 IIRC, which will hopefully allow him enough time to recover fully for next season. If he does return and is not hindered by the knee, he instantly becomes Atlanta's best receiver, and, thus, a big upgrade.
Secondly, Jenkins and White are young and should improve next season. I mean, there's nowhere to go but up for them. With a full offseason and preseason with Vick, perhaps Lelie can also improve. Between the three of them, I think they cost Vick at least 4 TDs this season.
Now for passing TDs. Despite the poor play from his receivers and the ill-fitting offense, Vick threw a career high 20 TDs. With the likelihood that his attempts will go up, his completion percentage will go up a bit, his receiver play will improve, and the offensive play calling will be better, I don't see any reason to project a significant dropoff, even with having to adjust to a new offense. At this point, I'd project 20 again, and I think he could potentially throw 25... like I said already, I think his receivers dropped at least 4 this season, so the potential is there.
Vick has been very good at not throwing interceptions in his career to date. He has averaged an interception every 33 attempts for his career, and his career worst was one every 26.8 attempts in Mora's first year. Assuming he has some growing pains in the new offense, I could see 16 in 420 passing attempts... that's 1 every 26 attempts.
So to sum up, assuming Vick is healthy and the team's offensive coaching and receiver play both improve at least a bit, I don't see any likelihood of a regression from Vick. He has been in as close to a worst case scenario as you can get outside of Oakland... lousy receiver play, ill-fitting offense, poor playcalling... and he was still a top 5 QB in all scoring systems I play in.
It will be hard for me to project worse than 2800/20/16 passing and 720/4 rushing, and I think there is upside to those numbers. Fantasy-wise, those numbers would be close to what he scored this year, and thus again a top 5 QB in most scoring systems. That said, we certainly have a long offseason ahead of us, so we'll have to see what happens.
I do agree that Vick could really explode in year 2 under the new coaching staff, if they do a good job of fitting an offense to his skills and coaching him in year 1.
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Billy Bats
Footballguy
He also regressed to a career high in interceptions and a career low in completion percentage. The rushing numbers are great and all, but he's supposed to be a QB, and he's not getting any better.mad sweeney said:
mad sweeney
Footballguy
The focus of the discussion wsa supposed to be, from the title, the FANTASY impact. Unless your league gives points for QB rating, he did pretty good fantasy wise. A far cry from the rock bottom point from which he can't get any worse. Fantasy vs nfl success. And quite frankly his numbers would be a lot better if his receivers weren't suffering from Seahawk level dropsies.
jeter23
Footballguy
Options for Mora's replacement--
http://www.ajc.com/falcons/content/sports/.../0102blank.html
Falcons owner Arthur Blank said he would prefer to hire a coach that can be with a franchise for years, like Pittsburgh's Bill Cowher or Tennessee's Jeff Fisher — candidates that would be at the top of a wish list if they were available. They're not. Instead, assistant coaches such as Pittsburgh offensive coordinator Ken Whisenhunt, an Atlanta native who played at Georgia Tech and for the Falcons; Tennessee offensive coordinator Norm Chow; San Francisco assistant head coach Mike Singletary, and Chargers offensive coordinator Cam Cameron are likely choices to be interviewed.
Falcons owner Arthur Blank did not rule out a college head coach, which is why Louisville's Bobby Petrino, Oklahoma's Bob Stoops or Iowa's Kirk Ferentz, whose son is on the Falcons' practice squad, might be considered.
http://www.ajc.com/falcons/content/sports/.../0102blank.html
Falcons owner Arthur Blank said he would prefer to hire a coach that can be with a franchise for years, like Pittsburgh's Bill Cowher or Tennessee's Jeff Fisher — candidates that would be at the top of a wish list if they were available. They're not. Instead, assistant coaches such as Pittsburgh offensive coordinator Ken Whisenhunt, an Atlanta native who played at Georgia Tech and for the Falcons; Tennessee offensive coordinator Norm Chow; San Francisco assistant head coach Mike Singletary, and Chargers offensive coordinator Cam Cameron are likely choices to be interviewed.
Falcons owner Arthur Blank did not rule out a college head coach, which is why Louisville's Bobby Petrino, Oklahoma's Bob Stoops or Iowa's Kirk Ferentz, whose son is on the Falcons' practice squad, might be considered.
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saintfool
Dead sexy
if cowher does step down as HC, whisenhunt would be offerred the HC job. there is no way that HC for the falcons trumps the HC of the Steelers.
Big Score
Footballguy
I wouldn't speak in absolutes, because you just never know. He's from Atlanta, family is still there, played his College ball there & his professional ball there. That's some seriously strong ties Whisenhunt has to Atlanta.
Kleck.
Footballguy
He stepped down a year or two ago as a coach. I believe he stayed on to be a consultant for Mora Jr., but I'm not sure how involved he really was or wants to be. The guy has been coaching since the late 60s, NFL since early 80's.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
I guess Vick was a Coach Killer as Mora Sr. said.
saintfool
Dead sexy
i understand that his ties to the community as well as his coaching experience make him an attractive candidate. i just don't see why he'd choose the falcons over the steelers though. the falcons are in tailspin while the steelers are contenders. he turned down the raiders offer last year, so he recognizes a bad situation when he sees it. if cowher steps down and recommends him to take over, i just don't see him walking away from it. few people would.
