chickenlittle
Footballguy
Non PPR, dynasty style league, who would you rather have. Both coming off promising rookie seasons and looking to caryy more of the load next year.
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B Wells or S Green (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter chickenlittle
- Start date
Donnybrook
Footballguy
If it was just for 2010, I would say S Greene. I believe that the Jets are a fantastic run blocking team and whoever get to start behind that line will be valuable. The Arizona line is still a work in progress but I believe Beenie is the more talented back. Thus, I would take Wells in a dynasty league and draft Greene in redraft.
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TenTimes
Backhoe Operator
Leinhart more proven than Sanchez?
LHUCKS
Footballguy
that's not what I saidwould you like to place a wager on which offense is better next year?
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TenTimes
Backhoe Operator
Define better.
Considering one team is passing-based and the other is running-based, I would take the RB in a running-based offense "almost" regardless of talent. I beleive you have been stating that AZ will be fine with Leinart (not agreeing or disagreeing), but if this is the case, then I see no reason why Wells will have some type of major uptick in stats over the next couple of years (not like Hightower is invisble or old).Just to add, IN before the Wisenhutt "has a run-first mentality and just rode Warner" arguement. I am still waiting for Brian Billick ("offensive genius") and Marvin Lewis ("defensive genius") to show their true colors. We all play the hand we are dealt, and the hand in AZ is through the air...
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Yeah, he's not old, he's just far less talented.Seriously, what kind of a statement is that. Chester Taylor wasn't old the year after he split with AD. LenDale White wasn't old the year after he split with Chris Johnson. You're acting like a rookie RB splitting time with a less talented incumbent in his first year and then taking over going forward is some new thing.
Cassius
Footballguy
what's the upside to making a bet with you? aside from being able to start an "LHUCKs is a deadbeat" thread in 10 months time, which are always fun
FUBAR
Footballguy
Which offense will have the greater time of possession?Which defense will allow the offense to run more?Which offense will rely on the running game more?I'll give you that AZ's offense will probably score more points, although that's far from a certainty - but I believe they'll turn the ball over more, run for less yards and TDs. I like Wells more - TJ>Hightower and he's more talented, but at this time next year we could have a pretty decent argument as to which offense was more successful.Define better.
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jurb26
Footballguy
Agreed.
The Captain
Footballguy
I'll third that notion.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
I'll fourth it.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Going forward, Wells.
Going backwards, toss up between LT and Westbrook.
Going backwards, toss up between LT and Westbrook.
I'm in the minority, I guess, but I'll say Greene. Loved what I saw from him in the playoffs -- he was so much faster than I expected. Even if the Jets still give Jones a good share of carries (which I don't think is a given as the year goes on), they're so committed to running the ball that there will be a lot of carries to go around. Wells looks good, as well, but Hightower will still be a factor on passing downs and near the goal line. I think it's close, but I just really like what I see from Greene and the Jets.
CaptainHook
Footballguy
wells is a stud greene is a scrub...how is this up for debate
Care to elaborate? Greene had a better YPC than Wells, and averaged more than 100 yards per game in three playoff games (with 5.6 YPC). It's fine for you to say that Wells has a better situation or you think he's more talented, but please explain why Greene is a "scrub."You dont think the Jets will resign Washington or bring in someone just like him to replace. This is basically Hightower but with speedGive me Beanie every day of the week. He looked awesome and I think less competiton for carries because Jets are going to get a 3rd RB in the end.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Nah, Greene is actually the real deal, he just doesn't have Wells type upside...and he definitely doesn't have the advantage of playing for the Cards.
What is this advantage? I think as a RB u would rather be in a RUN first offense, no? TJones is old, Leon coming off major injury, dont 'see anything on the negative for Greene.Just not sure Beanie is what everyoen is expecting him to be, should be a fine RB, but not "elite"
Hendo
Footballguy
What Beanie Wells were you watching this past season that didnt show "elite" potential? Wells was the most explosive RB out of last years crop even if he split the load with Hightower. The guys upside is huge
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Seriously? A) Total TDs scored by offense is an indicatorB) Cards haven't had a good RB, since foreverC) Greene isn't the goalline threat that Wells is, and for me that's what it makes it not close.
thecardiackid
Footballguy
Seriously x2?I know you're, let's just say 'optimistic' about Leinart's ability to pick up where Warner left off, but that's a BIG reach considering both how well Warner played over the past few years, and how relatively uninspiring Matty has been in his limited duty. Maybe he surprises most of us and does better than expected, but it's a 50/50 proposition at best now.I'm not saying I don't personally agree that Beanie isn't > Green from a talent perspective. Based on the proverbial eyeball test (at least mine anyway) both looked very good in their perspective opportunities, but I'd say I was more impressed w/ Wells when he got his chance. And maybe a late season trade for Wells (w/ Austin) that helped me win a re-draft title is clouding my judgement a little.My main concern is Leinart's ability to get close to what Warner delivered (RE: scoring opps, moving the chains, etc.). And it seems like - at least next season anyway - as he attempts to develop / mature into a *starting* NFL QB, that Hightower might be a bigger challenge in Beanie's way than you're admitting. Mainly b/c TH has been much more involved (and successful) in the RB receiving side of their offense. That, combined with the very real possibility that Leinart (for the next couple of years anyway) could turn into captain dumpoff - as he really learns how to read NFL defenses, makes the AZ rb situation less than clear.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Hightower is not a threat to Beanie's touches unless Beanie turns the ball over...trust me.As for your Leinart is unproven argument, that's a legitimate argument, but I'll bet Wisenhunt knows more than me when it comes to his QBs...hard for me to believe Wiz wouldn't hand over the keys unless he had some confidence in him, particularly since this team is Superbowl ready NOW.
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Rumblefish
Footballguy
When was the last time Arizona had a running back as talented as Wells? You're making a general statement that a running back can't put up good numbers simply because he plays in Arizona but you don't take into consideration the "talent" at the position when you make that statement. Over the last 10 years, the Cardinals have had an over-the-hill Edgerrin James, Marcel Shipp, an almost-retired Emmitt Smith, and an average Michael Pittman. In 2010, they'll have a 22-year old running back who's more talented than any of the aforementioned players at the point in their careers that they were with the Cardinals and he'll be running behind an improving offensive line.As for the last time a running back in a New York Jets uniform didn't put up good numbers? Leon Washington in 2006 was their best rusher with 650 yards. Those are average but not "good" numbers.ookook said:
Grimace59
Footballguy
They did draft Thomas Jones who looked like a bust when he left, but played great in Chicago and NY...But I do agree with you statement above.
FUBAR
Footballguy
coaching makes a big difference too. 2010 Cardinals is not the same as the 2000 Cardinals.What is this based on? Seems like Greene is built for goalline work and he should be the guy there going forward. The Cardinals work in Hightower quite a bit down there. Will he be totally out of the mix? Just seems like Wells has as much if not more of a chance to have some TD's vultured.LHUCKS said:
most of u are forgetting the most important fact that will, and should separate the two...
beanie wells is made of glass... hes very very talented, but was the 3rd running back selected for a reason.. he will have 1-2 great seasons, but the rest will be mared with injury...
wells > greene talent wise... but greene has been very impressive, and runs behind one of the best lines in football...
id ride greene for 2 seasons and then trade him for a few picks, if were talking dynasty... remember he will be 25 starting next season.
beanie wells is made of glass... hes very very talented, but was the 3rd running back selected for a reason.. he will have 1-2 great seasons, but the rest will be mared with injury...
wells > greene talent wise... but greene has been very impressive, and runs behind one of the best lines in football...
id ride greene for 2 seasons and then trade him for a few picks, if were talking dynasty... remember he will be 25 starting next season.
corpcow
Footballguy
Less competition, for sure, but I wouldn't say more proven offense, especially if we're talking about rushing offense. I think ARI will obviously be more run-heavy with Leinart as compared to Warner, but still pale in comparison to my NYJ. THe issue for Shonn is the status of T.Jones - who it sounds like willbe back - and Leon, who may struggle to get back to full status with that kind of injury. TJ is the more worrisome as a SG owner.... because I think he's a much more complete back, and can do everything SG does and more. If Wells was on the NYJ, I'd say you tak ehim without hesitation in any format, despite the extra competition. As an owner of both across various leagues, I'll tell you I'm much higher on Beanie than I am Shonn, but then in dynasty I'm definitely one of those guys who puts a MUCH greater emphasis on talent over situation.
TenTimes
Backhoe Operator
Age + low mileage = fantasy gold
Tanner9919
Footballguy
LHUCKSyou put that much faith in Leinart?
I understand you're thinking and I'm with you as long as Az signs someone like McNabb or a competent QB to run the show, but Leinart, not so much..
Wells will see 8-man fronts all day long with Leinart at the helm...
Greene on the other hand , has a MUCH better O-line, a MUCH better defense capable of (quickly) getting the ball back into the hands of the offense, a MUCH better QB in Sanchez ( over Leinart,that is)..
Ted Lange as your Bartender
Footballguy
There's no way teams stack 8 and leave Fitzgerald, Boldin and Breaston all with single coverage - I don't care who their QB is.Tanner9919 said:LHUCKSyou put that much faith in Leinart?
I understand you're thinking and I'm with you as long as Az signs someone like McNabb or a competent QB to run the show, but Leinart, not so much..
Wells will see 8-man fronts all day long with Leinart at the helm...
Greene on the other hand , has a MUCH better O-line, a MUCH better defense capable of (quickly) getting the ball back into the hands of the offense, a MUCH better QB in Sanchez ( over Leinart,that is)..
footballsavvy
Footballguy
I too would feel more comfortable (I think) starting Greene in 2010 if I had to choose at this point in time. However, assuming I just wanted to stash one on my roster it would be Wells.
Also, I think everyone is underestimating Leinard. Just because he likely won't be a hall of famer like Warner will be, doesn't mean he won't be good enough to keep defenses off balance. People are too biased on specific, over-hyped performances. Despite his negatives, he threw for a 67% completion percentage in 2009. if you don't think a "dink and dunk" style offense can be potent, rewatch the superbowl and take note of the Saints game plan. Also, check out the running back stats on every successful west coast offense since there was such a thing.
Shonn Greene's two big games are fresh on everyone minds. While they are significant, there are other factors to consider. Someone mentioned Wells fumbling issues. He lost 4 fumbles on 176 carries. Greene lost 3 fumbles on his first 70 carries.
Wells is supposedly injury prone, but Greene's running style (finishing every run with a collission) lends itself to injury (as we have already seen).
I don't think its a slam dunk either way, but the flashes of big play I saw from Wells got me excited. Greenes big plays were nice too but they seemed to be more a factor of Strength, Speed, and big holes created by the o-line, whereas Wells seemed to have some kind of an "it" factor. I can't really explain it any better than that, despite the vaugeness of that explanation.
Also, I think everyone is underestimating Leinard. Just because he likely won't be a hall of famer like Warner will be, doesn't mean he won't be good enough to keep defenses off balance. People are too biased on specific, over-hyped performances. Despite his negatives, he threw for a 67% completion percentage in 2009. if you don't think a "dink and dunk" style offense can be potent, rewatch the superbowl and take note of the Saints game plan. Also, check out the running back stats on every successful west coast offense since there was such a thing.
Shonn Greene's two big games are fresh on everyone minds. While they are significant, there are other factors to consider. Someone mentioned Wells fumbling issues. He lost 4 fumbles on 176 carries. Greene lost 3 fumbles on his first 70 carries.
Wells is supposedly injury prone, but Greene's running style (finishing every run with a collission) lends itself to injury (as we have already seen).
I don't think its a slam dunk either way, but the flashes of big play I saw from Wells got me excited. Greenes big plays were nice too but they seemed to be more a factor of Strength, Speed, and big holes created by the o-line, whereas Wells seemed to have some kind of an "it" factor. I can't really explain it any better than that, despite the vaugeness of that explanation.
footballsavvy
Footballguy
I have to agree. Leinard is not as terrible as people want to believe. He completed 67% of his passes in 2009. He may not be the deep threat that Warner was, but if defenses "stack the box" against an unproven second year running back, then Leinard will have a feild day with the weapons he has at receiver. Besides, "stacking the box" against the run is an over used comment and doesn't really affect fantasy potential anyway. I suppose no one "stacked the box" against Chris Johson, Johnathan stewart/deAngelo, Cedric Benson, Frank Gore, Jamaal Charles, Ricky Williams, Thomas Jones, and Ray Rice because Vince Young, Delhomme, Palmer, Alex Smith, Matt Cassel, Chad Henne, Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco were simply commanding too much respect with their passing games.There's no way teams stack 8 and leave Fitzgerald, Boldin and Breaston all with single coverage - I don't care who their QB is.Tanner9919 said:LHUCKSyou put that much faith in Leinart?
I understand you're thinking and I'm with you as long as Az signs someone like McNabb or a competent QB to run the show, but Leinart, not so much..
Wells will see 8-man fronts all day long with Leinart at the helm...
Greene on the other hand , has a MUCH better O-line, a MUCH better defense capable of (quickly) getting the ball back into the hands of the offense, a MUCH better QB in Sanchez ( over Leinart,that is)..
kentric
Footballguy
I believe it was the Star Ledger which stated that the Jets are looking for T. Jones to agree to a reduced salary. If this is in fact true, it wouldn't surprise to see Jones leave and open it up for Green. Although Washington would take some snaps, Green would likely get the bulk of the carries. Even though I agree that he's not on the same level as Wells in terms of ability, being the primary runner on a run oriented team will result in strong production. If Jones walks then I would definately take Green in a re-draft format.
Just noticed dynasty league statement. That's a more difficult choice, but seeing as I'm an instant gratification type guy, I'd still go with Green.
Just noticed dynasty league statement. That's a more difficult choice, but seeing as I'm an instant gratification type guy, I'd still go with Green.
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footballsavvy
Footballguy
But sure as the sun rises, three weeks into next season it will be obvious that Wells is on pace for 285 carries. You know how this works. It's never obvious until its too late.kentric said:
Hendo
Footballguy
He didn't look like glass his first year, id say it would be a universal opinion that Wells looked like the most explosive and talented RB from last years crop as well. Granted he did have a checkered injury history in college but so did ADP and look how that turned out? I dont think anyone can label Wells an injury prone RB after seeing a successful rookie season both health and production wise.... just a little too premature and too much going off his collegiate career imo.twr said:
right now greene is more valuable than wells is... but i have both ranked about even... and you cant compare ADP to wells... they arnt in the same classification. ADP dropped to #7 ... because of his injury history in college, and was still the first RB taken. well dropped to # 31... and became the 3rd back taken... big, big, difference... wells actually looked pretty good his first year... but it was a rather limited workload... and people questioned his drive in college... if he doesnt want to be successful, he wont... if hes nicked up and thinks hes too hurt, he wont play... from a risk/reward stance ill take greene all day long for at least 2 seasons... but wells does have the most upside... his measurable's are just that good...
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Lets skew the fumble number some more...Greene did not fumble in his last 91 carries of the season, Wells fumbled 3 times in 36 carries from week 2 to week 7.
