Bad news for Lamont Jordan... (1 Viewer)

[Fantaholic]

I'm sure many of us are targeting Jordan at some point in our upcoming drafts as possible sleeper RB 1/2 material given the whole Norv Turner = successful RB theory.I must say that this tidbit from Turner himself doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jordan's scoring opportunities:"LaMont is a good short-yardage back," coach Norv Turner said. "But obviously Zack might be the best there is." Turner later added, "A year ago we really went through a period where we didn't have a lead blocker other than Zack. That was a decision we made," Turner said. "I would see Zack being the short-yardage back, knowing that LaMont has been awfully good at it." Sounds like Lamont could be a between the 20's kind of guy. You must also take into consideration Randy Moss' propensity to be a TD vutlure. I think Jordan may be drafted too high in many drafts.ThoughtS?

 

[stealthrunner]

I see him going round 4-5 in most leagues I think.

 

[Colin Dowling]

Try 2nd or 3rd.

 

[P Boy]

I see him going round 4-5 in most leagues I think.

Last ADPs I saw, 12 teamer start 2 RB/2 RB or 1 RB/1 WR/2 Flex, .5 ppr for RBs has him going between 2.11 & 3.06.IMO, that's nuts...

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Try 2nd or 3rd.

Yeah, well he's talking about 18 team leagues.

 

[Gold Plated Nails]

I see him going round 4-5 in most leagues I think.

Last ADPs I saw, start 2 RB/2 RB or 1 RB/1 WR/2 Flex, .5 ppr for RBs has him going between 2.11 & 3.06.IMO, that's nuts...

Nuts? Maybe I don't follow Lamont like the rest of you, but the games I have seen him, including 2 live games last year I came away thinking Lamont is very impressive.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

I'm sure many of us are targeting Jordan at some point in our upcoming drafts as possible sleeper RB 1/2 material given the whole Norv Turner = successful RB theory.

I must say that this tidbit from Turner himself doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jordan's scoring opportunities:

"LaMont is a good short-yardage back," coach Norv Turner said. "But obviously Zack might be the best there is." Turner later added, "A year ago we really went through a period where we didn't have a lead blocker other than Zack. That was a decision we made," Turner said. "I would see Zack being the short-yardage back, knowing that LaMont has been awfully good at it."

Sounds like Lamont could be a between the 20's kind of guy. You must also take into consideration Randy Moss' propensity to be a TD vutlure. I think Jordan may be drafted too high in many drafts.

ThoughtS?

Crockett for third and one and for first and goal from the one. That's it. And even some of the goalline will go to LJ.

 

[Pops]

Guy in my 12 team league drafts out of the 1.3 spot and has already told me he has him targeted end of round two, beginning of round 3. So I don't think that is to unrealistic.

 

[JimmyD]

In standard scoring formats, I can't see him falling out of the 3rd round.You get him in the 4th. Consider yourself lucky to have featured RB. Crockett could vulture a couple TDs, but I don't think its that much. I think you'll find that Zack will be used on 3rd and 1 plays. No need of getting your featured running backs head slammed for one yard.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Guy in my 12 team league drafts out of the 1.3 spot and has already told me he has him targeted end of round two, beginning of round 3. So I don't think that is to unrealistic.

I took him at 3.01 after LT and Steven Jackson.

 

[bumpman]

Crockett could vulture a couple TDs, but I don't think its that much.

During the four years prior to last year, Crockett averaged 7 TDs. You can't deny there is a risk that he takes nearly all of the short yardage TDs, especially if Lamant screws up a few early chances.

 

[P Boy]

Try 2nd or 3rd.

Yeah, well he's talking about 18 team leagues.

His ADP at mfl.com in 127 drafts since Aug 1st is the 27th player off the board.LINK

Your information appears to be significantly faulty.

 

[Zaphod]

I see him going round 4-5 in most leagues I think.

Last ADPs I saw, 12 teamer start 2 RB/2 RB or 1 RB/1 WR/2 Flex, .5 ppr for RBs has him going between 2.11 & 3.06.IMO, that's nuts...

I would have to agree. For a RB that has never done more than show flashes on occasion and coming to a team where they have a WR that will command a large number of targets AND has an entrenched short yardage quality RB already on the roster, I find the risk at that point to be too high.

 

[JimmyD]

Crockett could vulture a couple TDs, but I don't think its that much. 

During the four years prior to last year, Crockett averaged 7 TDs. You can't deny there is a risk that he takes nearly all of the short yardage TDs, especially if Lamant screws up a few early chances.

I completely agree. Crockett will take some TD's from Jordan. However, I don't think it will kill Jordan's value. I really have no basis for my thought on this, but here it goes: I think that Jordan will stay in at the goalline some(not all), just to get a few TDs. Oakland signed him to a pretty good contract and I think they need to show he is worth it. Crockett will get some goalline carries, but I think his main value will be 3rd and 1 type plays.

I put a lowside of 1000yds/7TDs on Jordan with a highside of 1200total/10tds, thats pretty good for a 3rd round pick.

 

[Fantaholic]

I see him going round 4-5 in most leagues I think.

Last ADPs I saw, 12 teamer start 2 RB/2 RB or 1 RB/1 WR/2 Flex, .5 ppr for RBs has him going between 2.11 & 3.06.IMO, that's nuts...

I would have to agree. For a RB that has never done more than show flashes on occasion and coming to a team where they have a WR that will command a large number of targets AND has an entrenched short yardage quality RB already on the roster, I find the risk at that point to be too high.

Zaphod, that's what I'm thinking. He is this year's Trung Canidate 03' only on an elevated level. He is certainly being viewed as bonafied sleeper material for this season as a guy that will last into the late second round but has the chance to deliver round 1 numbers. I think people need to take a closer look instead of getting caught up on name value. Instead of being a steal in the late 2nd, he might be a total bust for his draft position.

 

[coolnerd]

My sense is that some of you have an inflated notion of what type of numbers come from the 18-22 RB (mid level #2 fanstasy RB) in fantasy football. Using last year as indication look at a Fred Taylor. In most formats he finish around RB #20 with 1200 yards and 3 or 4 TDs. IMO, Jordan looks like a candidate for that range of production which is well inline with a guy being drafted late in the 2nd round to middle of the 3rd.

 

[zamboni]

We had a thread discussing this a week or so ago.As I mentioned there, IMO Jordan will likely get first crack at goal line duty. If he stumbles, Crockett will assume that role.Let's not forget that Jordan is a very big, powerful guy himself - we're not talking Charlie Garner here.

 

[4 - Digit Shark]

Everyone knows Crockett is a TD vulture, and I thought even before these statements he would keep Jordan from lofty TD numbers. But, what everyone may be overlooking, is that last year under Norv, the OAK RB's caught a total of 116/778/0, being lead by Amos with 39/284/0. The WR's totaled only 165 receptions, and I know that number should go up with the addition of Moss, but 116 is a good bit of receptions. If Jordan plays on 3rd downs, he may make up for a lack of TD's with a higher total yardage output then some are expecting. And if your in a PPR scoring system, he could be even more valueable. Has anyone heard anything about Jordan, or any other OAK RB playing on 3rd downs? Who else is going to play on 3rd downs? And, please don't say Justin Fargas.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak | 13 | 45 91 2.0 4 | 8 56 7.0 1 |

| 2000 oak | 16 | 43 130 3.0 7 | 10 62 6.2 0 |

| 2001 oak | 16 | 57 145 2.5 6 | 2 10 5.0 0 |

| 2002 oak | 15 | 40 118 3.0 8 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

| 2003 oak | 16 | 48 145 3.0 7 | 7 53 7.6 0 |

| 2004 oak | 16 | 48 232 4.8 2 | 16 87 5.4 0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

 

[zamboni]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak | 13 | 45 91 2.0 4 | 8 56 7.0 1 |

| 2000 oak | 16 | 43 130 3.0 7 | 10 62 6.2 0 |

| 2001 oak | 16 | 57 145 2.5 6 | 2 10 5.0 0 |

| 2002 oak | 15 | 40 118 3.0 8 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

| 2003 oak | 16 | 48 145 3.0 7 | 7 53 7.6 0 |

| 2004 oak | 16 | 48 232 4.8 2 | 16 87 5.4 0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45    91    2.0    4 |    8    56  7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10    62  6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |    2    10  5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |    0      0  0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |    7    53  7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16    87  5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

 

[RedRaiders]

What about Fargas? Any word on him? Possibly cut?

 

[zamboni]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Big Pink Floyd fan.

 

[Steve in Minneapolis]

Crockett could vulture a couple TDs, but I don't think its that much. 

During the four years prior to last year, Crockett averaged 7 TDs. You can't deny there is a risk that he takes nearly all of the short yardage TDs, especially if Lamant screws up a few early chances.

This is somewhat flawed in that the four years prior Charlie Garner was their primary back, and Tyrone Wheatley spelled him, so the carries were being split two and even three ways... Jordan is a more complete back than Wheatley and Garner...

 

[Mr. Anonymous]

Are we looking at the difference between true goal line carries and inside the ten carries?One would think, given his background, that Jordan would be the guy, except possibly for goal-to-gos at one or two yards.I'm very interested in Jordan as the #15-20 RB - everybody going around him has something that takes the bloom off the rose.

 

[reg]

Saw an article where Lamont himself even said he will lose most all his goalline work to Zach.

 

[Fantaholic]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

OK, I get what you are saying, however,+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2001 nyj | 16 | 39 292 7.5 1 | 7 44 6.3 1 |

| 2002 nyj | 14 | 84 316 3.8 3 | 17 160 9.4 0 |

| 2003 nyj | 16 | 46 190 4.1 4 | 11 101 9.2 0 |

| 2004 nyj | 16 | 93 479 5.2 2 | 15 112 7.5 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 62 | 262 1277 4.9 10 | 50 417 8.3 1 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Jordan averages a TD about every 25 carries...which if he touches it 300 times out of the backfield...puts us at 12 TD. He has almost a 5 ypc average. The years he had 3.8/4.1 he was used as a short yardage back. The guy has explosion. Rarely do we get to grab a guy in the late 2nd/early 3rd with so much upside. He also seems capable of catching the ball. 262 carries to 50 catches...you have to look at the stats...and try to shield the ears a little here. Crockett is 32 years old...Jordan is young, fresh, and a good size RB.

 

[stbugs]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

Forget Crockett, Moss is much more of a threat. The Raiders and to a certain degree, Norv Turner, have not had a TD machine of a WR like Randy Moss. If Crockett only steals a few and Moss steals a few more, I don't think Oaklands offense will produce enough TDs for LJ.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

Forget Crockett, Moss is much more of a threat. The Raiders and to a certain degree, Norv Turner, have not had a TD machine of a WR like Randy Moss. If Crockett only steals a few and Moss steals a few more, I don't think Oaklands offense will produce enough TDs for LJ.

Disagree, their defense is still in shambles. They will need 30+ that's right 30+ to win most of their games. They are one of 4-5 pinball offense teams you want to target this season. Jordan could score 10-12 TD just by being on the field. Norv can't afford to go 4-12 again and expect to be coaching this team, he knows he has a lot of talent on offense and I think he will use it at his disposal.

 

[zamboni]

Granted, you can't discount what Turner is saying about Crockett, but I do remember Norv raving a few times about Jordan during the offseason. Something along the lines of how he views Jordan as an every down, all purpose back.By most accounts, Jordan is having a strong camp, so unless something has changed, I don't see Jordan giving way.May be some truth to it, but could also be coachspeak/motivation for Crockett.This still has to sort itself out...

 

[stbugs]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

OK, I get what you are saying, however,+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2001 nyj | 16 | 39 292 7.5 1 | 7 44 6.3 1 |

| 2002 nyj | 14 | 84 316 3.8 3 | 17 160 9.4 0 |

| 2003 nyj | 16 | 46 190 4.1 4 | 11 101 9.2 0 |

| 2004 nyj | 16 | 93 479 5.2 2 | 15 112 7.5 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 62 | 262 1277 4.9 10 | 50 417 8.3 1 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Jordan averages a TD about every 25 carries...which if he touches it 300 times out of the backfield...puts us at 12 TD. He has almost a 5 ypc average. The years he had 3.8/4.1 he was used as a short yardage back. The guy has explosion. Rarely do we get to grab a guy in the late 2nd/early 3rd with so much upside. He also seems capable of catching the ball. 262 carries to 50 catches...you have to look at the stats...and try to shield the ears a little here. Crockett is 32 years old...Jordan is young, fresh, and a good size RB.

I think your sampling size is a too small. While he has a career of almost one full year. He averaged 1 per 39, 1 per 46.5, 1 per 28 and 1 per 11.5. His 4 TD year very much skews the numbers. If he got a high proportion of goaline carries that year and punched a couple in, then that ratio would not carry over to a full year. You yourself said he was used as a short yardage back in those years.Also, as above, the Jets have not had any receivers recently with high TD totals and I think the passing TDs that everyone seems to be predicting will take a bite out of LJs end zone opportunities. If they become the Rams with Faulk, then he will do well, but that is not an everyday occurrence and LJ is not Faulk in his prime.

 

[El1jah]

We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time

 

[doughboydeluxe]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

In looking at Antsports ADP, everyone in that range has some questions. Martin probably does have the least questions, so if you are looking for the safer pick, he probably should go ahead of Jordan (and FBG agrees). In my mind, though, it's whether he is worth a gamble over guys like Tatum Bell, Steven Jackson, and Michael Bennett. Like Mr. Anonymous said, most of the guys from RB15 on are going to have some reason for concern... if they didn't, they would be viewed as being higher. It's a matter of looking at the situation of each RB and deciding which guy 1) will be the most steady and consistent, or 2) which guy has the highest upside, depending on what you are looking for and what fits with your team the best.

 

[Fantaholic]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

In looking at Antsports ADP, everyone in that range has some questions. Martin probably does have the least questions, so if you are looking for the safer pick, he probably should go ahead of Jordan (and FBG agrees). In my mind, though, it's whether he is worth a gamble over guys like Tatum Bell, Steven Jackson, and Michael Bennett. Like Mr. Anonymous said, most of the guys from RB15 on are going to have some reason for concern... if they didn't, they would be viewed as being higher. It's a matter of looking at the situation of each RB and deciding which guy 1) will be the most steady and consistent, or 2) which guy has the highest upside, depending on what you are looking for and what fits with your team the best.

I agree with you there. Jordan, Tatum, and Jackson are three guys that I have ranked very closely with the chance to outperform their ranking being the key. A statement from Turner like this one makes me reconsider where I have Jordan in comparison to those other two backs. Tatum has tremendous upside. Sky is the limit with Jackson. Jordan??? Is Arrington a better gamble in round 4ish???

 

[Two Deep]

We can hypothesize all we want but until the trials are run we just don't know now do we.

 

[Zaphod]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

OK, I get what you are saying, however,+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2001 nyj | 16 | 39 292 7.5 1 | 7 44 6.3 1 |

| 2002 nyj | 14 | 84 316 3.8 3 | 17 160 9.4 0 |

| 2003 nyj | 16 | 46 190 4.1 4 | 11 101 9.2 0 |

| 2004 nyj | 16 | 93 479 5.2 2 | 15 112 7.5 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 62 | 262 1277 4.9 10 | 50 417 8.3 1 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Jordan averages a TD about every 25 carries...which if he touches it 300 times out of the backfield...puts us at 12 TD. He has almost a 5 ypc average. The years he had 3.8/4.1 he was used as a short yardage back. The guy has explosion. Rarely do we get to grab a guy in the late 2nd/early 3rd with so much upside. He also seems capable of catching the ball. 262 carries to 50 catches...you have to look at the stats...and try to shield the ears a little here. Crockett is 32 years old...Jordan is young, fresh, and a good size RB.

How exactly is a goaline back a myth? Hoard, Duckett and others would seem to prove otherwise. Also, Bettis is also on the wrong side of 30 and the back he replaces at the goaline is a younger, good size RB as well. Seems that this would actually be more of an argument that Crockett might fill that role. Limiting a back to goaline work would seem to keep an older back fresher longer and keep them productive when they enter the game.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

OK, I get what you are saying, however,+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2001 nyj | 16 | 39 292 7.5 1 | 7 44 6.3 1 |

| 2002 nyj | 14 | 84 316 3.8 3 | 17 160 9.4 0 |

| 2003 nyj | 16 | 46 190 4.1 4 | 11 101 9.2 0 |

| 2004 nyj | 16 | 93 479 5.2 2 | 15 112 7.5 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 62 | 262 1277 4.9 10 | 50 417 8.3 1 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Jordan averages a TD about every 25 carries...which if he touches it 300 times out of the backfield...puts us at 12 TD. He has almost a 5 ypc average. The years he had 3.8/4.1 he was used as a short yardage back. The guy has explosion. Rarely do we get to grab a guy in the late 2nd/early 3rd with so much upside. He also seems capable of catching the ball. 262 carries to 50 catches...you have to look at the stats...and try to shield the ears a little here. Crockett is 32 years old...Jordan is young, fresh, and a good size RB.

How exactly is a goaline back a myth? Hoard, Duckett and others would seem to prove otherwise. Also, Bettis is also on the wrong side of 30 and the back he replaces at the goaline is a younger, good size RB as well. Seems that this would actually be more of an argument that Crockett might fill that role. Limiting a back to goaline work would seem to keep an older back fresher longer and keep them productive when they enter the game.

Leroy Hoard? is he still playing? Duckett? Maybe 1...keep going...find all these Vulture RB that everyone crows about in here. There are 32 teams...you can't name 5 teams that have the "Vulture" RB..the evil coach that magically wheels out the Stud RB in favor of the guy that's just good enough to get that 1 c-r-u-c-i-a-l yyyyaarrrrdddd....C'mon guys, I don't believe in the Easter BUnny anymore but you guys keep buying into the Vulture RB theory in the NFL. There have been a few over the years but "FEW" is the right word. How many Rb post less than 250-500 yards on the ground and score 10+TD...has that happened a lot?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Jerome Bettis had 13 TD rushing last season and had 941 yds on the ground...that's not a vulture, that's a bonafide starter if I ever saw one.

 

[reg]

Jerome Bettis had 13 TD rushing last season and had 941 yds on the ground...that's not a vulture, that's a bonafide starter if I ever saw one.

That's because he took over the starter role. Before then he would have 5 rushes for 1 yard a TD or 6 rushes for 9 yards and 2 td's.

 

[Fantaholic]

Jerome Bettis had 13 TD rushing last season and had 941 yds on the ground...that's not a vulture, that's a bonafide starter if I ever saw one.

Just to name a few going back:Jerome Bettis

Moe Williams

TJ Duckett

Zack Crockett

Mike Alstott

Stacey Mack

Leroy Hoard

Culpepper?

James Stewart

All of these guys were at some point in their careers the dreaded "TD Vulture"

Just ask Robert Smith or Fred Taylor and they'll tell you all about the TD vulture.

 

[lebowski]

Is Arrington a better gamble in round 4ish???

Arrington most likely isn't lasting to the 4th any more. He seems to be in round 3.

 

[Fantaholic]

Is Arrington a better gamble in round 4ish???

Arrington most likely isn't lasting to the 4th any more. He seems to be in round 3.

That's going to rely heavily on the league in my opinion. I can't see him going before the 4th in my local leagues.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Jerome Bettis had 13 TD rushing last season and had 941 yds on the ground...that's not a vulture, that's a bonafide starter if I ever saw one.

Just to name a few going back:Jerome Bettis

Moe Williams

TJ Duckett

Zack Crockett

Mike Alstott

Stacey Mack

Leroy Hoard

Culpepper?

James Stewart

All of these guys were at some point in their careers the dreaded "TD Vulture"

Just ask Robert Smith or Fred Taylor and they'll tell you all about the TD vulture.

Jerome Bettis lead the team in rushing and TD all but 1 season in 2002...n all his years.+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1993 ram | 16 | 294 1429 4.9 7 | 26 244 9.4 0 |

| 1994 ram | 16 | 319 1025 3.2 3 | 31 293 9.5 1 |

| 1995 ram | 15 | 183 637 3.5 3 | 18 106 5.9 0 |

| 1996 pit | 16 | 320 1431 4.5 11 | 22 122 5.5 0 |

| 1997 pit | 15 | 375 1665 4.4 7 | 15 110 7.3 2 |

| 1998 pit | 15 | 316 1185 3.8 3 | 16 90 5.6 0 |

| 1999 pit | 16 | 299 1091 3.6 7 | 21 110 5.2 0 |

| 2000 pit | 16 | 355 1341 3.8 8 | 13 97 7.5 0 |

| 2001 pit | 11 | 225 1072 4.8 4 | 8 48 6.0 0 |

| 2002 pit | 13 | 187 666 3.6 9 | 7 57 8.1 0 |

| 2003 pit | 16 | 246 811 3.3 7 | 13 86 6.6 0 |

| 2004 pit | 15 | 250 941 3.8 13 | 6 46 7.7 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 180 | 3369 13294 3.9 82 | 196 1409 7.2 3 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Moe Williams did rush for less than 500 yds and had 11 TD in 1 season...he has been in the league a long time too.

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1996 min | 9 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

| 1997 min | 14 | 22 59 2.7 1 | 4 14 3.5 0 |

| 1998 min | 12 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 1 64 64.0 0 |

| 1999 min | 14 | 24 69 2.9 1 | 1 12 12.0 0 |

| 2000 min | 16 | 23 67 2.9 0 | 4 31 7.8 0 |

| 2001 bal | 15 | 65 291 4.5 0 | 23 210 9.1 0 |

| 2002 min | 16 | 84 414 4.9 11 | 27 251 9.3 0 |

| 2003 min | 16 | 174 745 4.3 5 | 65 644 9.9 3 |

| 2004 min | 14 | 30 161 5.4 3 | 21 233 11.1 1 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 126 | 422 1806 4.3 21 | 146 1459 10.0 4 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

TJ Duckett vultured from who? Warrick Dunn lead the team in rushing and had 9 TD...did I miss something? Oh he didn't get all the goal line scores so we don't acknowledge him in FF.

Zack Crockett I already covered.

Mike Alstott was part of a duo with Warrick Dunn in Tampa and was a starter for a few years.

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1996 tam | 16 | 96 377 3.9 3 | 65 557 8.6 3 |

| 1997 tam | 15 | 176 665 3.8 7 | 23 178 7.7 3 |

| 1998 tam | 16 | 215 846 3.9 8 | 22 152 6.9 1 |

| 1999 tam | 16 | 242 949 3.9 7 | 27 239 8.9 2 |

| 2000 tam | 13 | 131 465 3.5 5 | 13 93 7.2 0 |

| 2001 tam | 16 | 165 680 4.1 10 | 35 231 6.6 1 |

| 2002 tam | 16 | 146 548 3.8 5 | 35 242 6.9 2 |

| 2003 tam | 4 | 27 77 2.9 2 | 10 83 8.3 0 |

| 2004 tam | 14 | 67 230 3.4 2 | 29 202 7.0 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 126 | 1265 4837 3.8 49 | 259 1977 7.6 12 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

S.Mack? In 2001 Fred Taylor was hurt and had 100 yds rushing...Mack was the starter...not a vulture. Mack did not play in 2004, I think he's retired.

Leroy Hoard. Had 2 good seasons at the end of his career where he was a "Vulture" I suppose.

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1990 cle | 14 | 58 149 2.6 3 | 10 73 7.3 0 |

| 1991 cle | 16 | 37 154 4.2 2 | 48 567 11.8 9 |

| 1992 cle | 16 | 54 236 4.4 0 | 26 310 11.9 1 |

| 1993 cle | 16 | 56 227 4.1 0 | 35 351 10.0 0 |

| 1994 cle | 16 | 209 890 4.3 5 | 45 445 9.9 4 |

| 1995 cle | 12 | 136 547 4.0 0 | 13 103 7.9 0 |

| 1996 car | 3 | 5 11 2.2 0 | 0 0 0.0 0 |

| 1996 min | 6 | 105 420 4.0 3 | 10 129 12.9 0 |

| 1996 bal | 2 | 15 61 4.1 0 | 1 4 4.0 0 |

| 1997 min | 12 | 80 235 2.9 4 | 11 84 7.6 0 |

| 1998 min | 16 | 115 479 4.2 9 | 22 198 9.0 1 |

| 1999 min | 15 | 138 555 4.0 10 | 17 166 9.8 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 144 | 1008 3964 3.9 36 | 238 2430 10.2 15 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

James Stewart? 1st RB for Jax and was the starter while he was there till Fred Taylor came along...he than went to Detroit again to be a starter.

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1995 jax | 14 | 137 525 3.8 2 | 21 190 9.0 1 |

| 1996 jax | 13 | 190 723 3.8 8 | 30 177 5.9 2 |

| 1997 jax | 16 | 136 555 4.1 8 | 41 336 8.2 1 |

| 1998 jax | 3 | 53 217 4.1 2 | 6 42 7.0 1 |

| 1999 jax | 14 | 249 931 3.7 13 | 21 108 5.1 0 |

| 2000 det | 16 | 339 1184 3.5 10 | 32 287 9.0 1 |

| 2001 det | 12 | 143 685 4.8 1 | 23 242 10.5 1 |

| 2002 det | 14 | 231 1021 4.4 4 | 46 333 7.2 2 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 102 | 1478 5841 4.0 48 | 220 1715 7.8 9 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

I think that covered everyone you mentioned.

My point is not to 1-up you I promise, but I think the vulture thing gets blown out of proportion and I have done a good job defending/debating that with you.

Could Crockett get some TD? he could...but I don't think they paid Jordan $25 million to tote the ball to the 1 yard line and than wheel out ole Zack every time. Moss is a concern but as I said da Raiders gotta score points...and when they are behind defenses will key in on the pass with 5 and 6 man Nickel and Dime defenses and Jordan will bust a few long ones to pad his numbers. Think about it from a Defensive coach position from the other side. What are you most worried about...not getting beat deep, so Jordan is going to get met with little resistance form the safety positions.

You started this thread because you really like Lamont Jordan but need some hard numbers to justify taking him in the 2nd/3rd, I hope we have helped.

 

[Fiddles.]

the impression I got from watching a few Jets games last year was that LJ can score from anywhere on the field. I'm not worried about crockett.

 

[Marc Levin]

I'm sure many of us are targeting Jordan at some point in our upcoming drafts as possible sleeper RB 1/2 material given the whole Norv Turner = successful RB theory.

I must say that this tidbit from Turner himself doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jordan's scoring opportunities:

"LaMont is a good short-yardage back," coach Norv Turner said. "But obviously Zack might be the best there is." Turner later added, "A year ago we really went through a period where we didn't have a lead blocker other than Zack. That was a decision we made," Turner said. "I would see Zack being the short-yardage back, knowing that LaMont has been awfully good at it."

Sounds like Lamont could be a between the 20's kind of guy. You must also take into consideration Randy Moss' propensity to be a TD vutlure. I think Jordan may be drafted too high in many drafts.

ThoughtS?

I think Sharks are clueing into LJordan having limited value for TDs. The RB situation in Oak reminds me of what the RB situation in Pitt is supposed to be where Staley (when healthy) is between the 20s and Bettis takes the inside the 20 and 3rd and short work.I could still see a possible 12-1500 total yardage season from LJordan - and a worthy RB2/3 roster spot - but 8 or more total TDs is highly unliklely, IMO. Don't forget, if Zach and LJordan are the two primary backs - as we believe they are - Jordan will get the VAST BULK of RB receiving numbers (Ricky had something like 60 catches each year under Turner) - Crockett is not an accomplished receiver.

While we are projecting only about 50 passes to the RBs this year, I think that our current numbers are *extremely* low - and that Jordan will have somewhere around 45-55 catches on the year.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm sure many of us are targeting Jordan at some point in our upcoming drafts as possible sleeper RB 1/2 material given the whole Norv Turner = successful RB theory.

I must say that this tidbit from Turner himself doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about Jordan's scoring opportunities:

"LaMont is a good short-yardage back," coach Norv Turner said. "But obviously Zack might be the best there is." Turner later added, "A year ago we really went through a period where we didn't have a lead blocker other than Zack. That was a decision we made," Turner said. "I would see Zack being the short-yardage back, knowing that LaMont has been awfully good at it."

Sounds like Lamont could be a between the 20's kind of guy. You must also take into consideration Randy Moss' propensity to be a TD vutlure. I think Jordan may be drafted too high in many drafts.

ThoughtS?

I think Sharks are clueing into LJordan having limited value for TDs. The RB situation in Oak reminds me of what the RB situation in Pitt is supposed to be where Staley (when healthy) is between the 20s and Bettis takes the inside the 20 and 3rd and short work.I could still see a possible 12-1500 total yardage season from LJordan - and a worthy RB2/3 roster spot - but 8 or more total TDs is highly unliklely, IMO. Don't forget, if Zach and LJordan are the two primary backs - as we believe they are - Jordan will get the VAST BULK of RB receiving numbers (Ricky had something like 60 catches each year under Turner) - Crockett is not an accomplished receiver.

While we are projecting only about 50 passes to the RBs this year, I think that our current numbers are *extremely* low - and that Jordan will have somewhere around 45-55 catches on the year.

Exactly...300 carries or something close...4.5 ypc...let's say 275 carries...that's 1200 rush, than about 40-50 catches...Collins will use him as a safety valve...so that's another 300 yards.1,500 yds and 6-8 TD makes him RB2 worthy...very worthy.

 

[Zaphod]

Zack Crockett was born in 1972.

Here are his stats since joing the Raiders, after he spent 5 seasons with the Colts.

1999 oak |  13 |    45     91    2.0    4 |     8     56   7.0    1 |

| 2000 oak |  16 |    43    130    3.0    7 |    10     62   6.2    0 |

| 2001 oak |  16 |    57    145    2.5    6 |     2     10   5.0    0 |

| 2002 oak |  15 |    40    118    3.0    8 |     0      0   0.0    0 |

| 2003 oak |  16 |    48    145    3.0    7 |     7     53   7.6    0 |

| 2004 oak |  16 |    48    232    4.8    2 |    16     87   5.4    0 |

Crockett had a peak of 7-6-8-7 TD...in Gruden's system mostly. I don't see Jordan, who was supposed to be the goal line back in NY is gonna lose a lot of carries to Crockett...most RB who carry the ball 18-20 times a game want some glory too...they're not just gonna yank the $25 million RB...this is so overblown and the FF vulture is the biggest Myth I have ever come across.

Every RB/WR/TE loses some TD to another player a couple times during the season. We all cry and whine if Edge doesn't score every rushing TD because we are all greedy little pigs that want the RB to carry every time...just our make-up.

I find it humorous that your avatar is a pig.

Ministry, I agree good post. However, the reason that I posted this thread was to relay the exact words of Norv Turner. I didn't create this out of thin air. When I hear words like that from the head coach, it makes me think about Jordan's opportunities. Then you factor in how many balls will be tossed up to Moss and even Porter from within the 10 yard line and you wonder just how many chances Jordan will get. Now, I haven't researched the stats, but I am going to go off of what I can recall of Jordan since coming into the league. He hasn't done anything consistently enough to warrant being stamped a featured back in the NFL. He's a bit of a quesiton mark to begin with. So, when you add up Norv's comments, Moss' addition to the goal line package, and the fact that this guy has never been a featured back you end up with several question marks. Is he worth a gamble over a guy like Curtis Martin?

OK, I get what you are saying, however,+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2001 nyj | 16 | 39 292 7.5 1 | 7 44 6.3 1 |

| 2002 nyj | 14 | 84 316 3.8 3 | 17 160 9.4 0 |

| 2003 nyj | 16 | 46 190 4.1 4 | 11 101 9.2 0 |

| 2004 nyj | 16 | 93 479 5.2 2 | 15 112 7.5 0 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 62 | 262 1277 4.9 10 | 50 417 8.3 1 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Jordan averages a TD about every 25 carries...which if he touches it 300 times out of the backfield...puts us at 12 TD. He has almost a 5 ypc average. The years he had 3.8/4.1 he was used as a short yardage back. The guy has explosion. Rarely do we get to grab a guy in the late 2nd/early 3rd with so much upside. He also seems capable of catching the ball. 262 carries to 50 catches...you have to look at the stats...and try to shield the ears a little here. Crockett is 32 years old...Jordan is young, fresh, and a good size RB.

How exactly is a goaline back a myth? Hoard, Duckett and others would seem to prove otherwise. Also, Bettis is also on the wrong side of 30 and the back he replaces at the goaline is a younger, good size RB as well. Seems that this would actually be more of an argument that Crockett might fill that role. Limiting a back to goaline work would seem to keep an older back fresher longer and keep them productive when they enter the game.

Leroy Hoard? is he still playing? Duckett? Maybe 1...keep going...find all these Vulture RB that everyone crows about in here. There are 32 teams...you can't name 5 teams that have the "Vulture" RB..the evil coach that magically wheels out the Stud RB in favor of the guy that's just good enough to get that 1 c-r-u-c-i-a-l yyyyaarrrrdddd....C'mon guys, I don't believe in the Easter BUnny anymore but you guys keep buying into the Vulture RB theory in the NFL. There have been a few over the years but "FEW" is the right word. How many Rb post less than 250-500 yards on the ground and score 10+TD...has that happened a lot?

I'm not the one that said they were a myth. In case you are confused, Bigfoot would be a myth. And why are we beholden to your arbitrary definition of a TD vulture? Any back that primarily sees action inside the 20 qualifies for me.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm not the one that said they were a myth.  In case you are confused, Bigfoot would be a myth.  And why are we beholden to your arbitrary definition of a TD vulture?  Any back that primarily sees action inside the 20 qualifies for me.

OK, where were the 5 "Vulture" RB for this season....my point is there really are not many/any. I coined the myth phrase. Don't get offended, I'm just really a hardass on the "Vulture" RB theory that people chirp about. Sometimes RB need a break after they carry a team down to the end zone...a RB get a couple touches inside the 20 than the starter comes back. Priest soemtimes needs a blow though and than **** Vermeil has to get involved in it.

 

[smetankafanclub]

I didnt see this in the threat but does Randy also vulture a couple of TD's. Afterall the guy is a force in those type of situations. Last year 12 targets and 8 TDs at the goaline. That scares me just as much as Zack vulturing scores.