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Baseball scoring question (1 Viewer)

Galileo

Galileo

Footballguy
This happened in a 12u tournament game today: Player jacks what appears to be a 3 run HR over the fence in left-center. In the excitement, his teammates gathered around home plate and the player leaps in his last steps towards home apparently missing home plate in the process. The other team appeals and the batter is called out. How is this officially scored? Is it a triple? Is it still a HR but with some sort of special designation?

 
Interesting situation.

Assume for a second that this was a "walk off homer" with two runners on and the score tied. Would it just be a single at that point and one run scored and one rbi?

 
belljr said:
Pipes said:
It's scored the other teams coach being a complete doushbag.
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really? I'm very laid back when it comes to stuff but wouldn't think twice about appealing.
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I don't have a beef with the other coach appealing, especially in a tournament where run differential is a factor in the seeding. Sucks for us, but lesson learned by the player and the rest of the team.

 
Country Boys said:
belljr said:
Pipes said:
It's scored the other teams coach being a complete doushbag.
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really? I'm very laid back when it comes to stuff but wouldn't think twice about appealing.
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I don't have a beef with the other coach appealing, especially in a tournament where run differential is a factor in the seeding. Sucks for us, but lesson learned by the player and the rest of the team.
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i remember a tournament I was playing and a kid for our team hit a grand slam but missed third.luckily we still won

 
Oh man, you just brought up a horrible memory for me. When I was in Farm League (I think 8 or 9 years old) my best friend hit a homerun over the fence in our town's Little League stadium, and this was at a time when it was a big deal to even hit it into the outfield. Same thing happened. The team mobbed him at home plate (myself included - I was coaching third and tackled him from behind) and the other team had the balls to appeal it and the ump called him out. Place went absolutely crazy. I remember the kid's father having to be restrained by about 4 other parents. It's kind of comical in hindsight, but our entire team was crying - every kid on the bench literally sobbing. It was some pretty dramatic ####, and to this day my buddy still gets all fired up when someone brings it up. It was the only homerun he ever hit at any level. And they took it away from him. 9 years old.

 
the moops said:
belljr said:
Pipes said:
It's scored the other teams coach being a complete doushbag.
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really? I'm very laid back when it comes to stuff but wouldn't think twice about appealing.
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Weak move. Your team lost. Deal with it. The actual fact of having to touch home plate on a home run is stupid anyhow.
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Yes these are 12 year old kids. I'm typically a rules guy but the kid did hit a HR, no need to ruin his day on a technicality. It's stunning to me the other coach was watching that closely.

 
what if one of my players said he didn't touch home plate

also no one ever said it was a walk off home run they just said it was at home run this could have been the 3rd inning so that run may matter down the line also I bet you that kid from now on touches home plate and when I was 12 we did everything by the rules so it's not like these are eight or nine year olds were talking about

there's a reason baseball has appeals by the players

 
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Slow pitch softball is not kids fast pitch baseball, but they don't even make us run out HRs anymore. Nothing like the thrill of hitting a bomb jogging a couple steps and walking back towards the bench.

 
belljr said:
what if one of my players said he didn't touch home plate

also no one ever said it was a walk off home run they just said it was at home run this could have been the 3rd inning so that run may matter down the line also I bet you that kid from now on touches home plate and when I was 12 we did everything by the rules so it's not like these are eight or nine year olds were talking about

there's a reason baseball has appeals by the players
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It's no wonder competitive youth sports gets such a bad rap. If I was an umpire, not a chance in hell I'd ever call that kid out. Rules are meant to insure that no team gets a competitive advantage - not to be used in some gotcha moment or technicality that has no relativity to skillful play. Bush league all the way around in my opinion.
 
General Tso said:
belljr said:
what if one of my players said he didn't touch home plate

also no one ever said it was a walk off home run they just said it was at home run this could have been the 3rd inning so that run may matter down the line also I bet you that kid from now on touches home plate and when I was 12 we did everything by the rules so it's not like these are eight or nine year olds were talking about

there's a reason baseball has appeals by the players
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It's no wonder competitive youth sports gets such a bad rap. If I was an umpire, not a chance in hell I'd ever call that kid out. Rules are meant to insure that no team gets a competitive advantage - not to be used in some gotcha moment or technicality that has no relativity to skillful play. Bush league all the way around in my opinion.
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Exactly.

 
:shrug: I'm really not competitive with my kids teams I am just surprised that people consider bush league in a 12u competitive team. It's not rec ball

what about if the team bats out of order when it was inadvertent also

I'm really not a crazy parent but at what age can you call this? High school?

eta rec ball no way I even mention it

12u travel these are the kids that play in the llws. That's the level where I say it starts to matter.

I grew up playing the game by all the rules early and have seen my fair share of ####### parents and coaches and teams. I would never run up scores take extra bases when winning by alot, this is pre mercy rule. It never occurred to me this particular play people would have issue. :shrug: I know it's a different time now and don't want to come off as a psycho sports parent ;) I'm really not

 
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I've got a solution. Instead of just mobbing the player wait till he gets near home, pick him up & slam dunk him into home plate.

 
belljr said:
:shrug: I'm really not competitive with my kids teams I am just surprised that people consider bush league in a 12u competitive team. It's not rec ball

what about if the team bats out of order when it was inadvertent also

I'm really not a crazy parent but at what age can you call this? High school?

eta rec ball no way I even mention it

12u travel these are the kids that play in the llws. That's the level where I say it starts to matter.

I grew up playing the game by all the rules early and have seen my fair share of ####### parents and coaches and teams. I would never run up scores take extra bases when winning by alot, this is pre mercy rule. It never occurred to me this particular play people would have issue. :shrug: I know it's a different time now and don't want to come off as a psycho sports parent ;) I'm really not
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Batting out of order is different...I think a runner missing a base when a ball is in play is different to me as well. I just think the kid earned a HR by actually hitting one out and in the excurberance of being a kid was so excited he didn't touch home. I coach little league and have been an assistant coach for our tournament teams and no way would I call on kid on that. Of course I wouldn't be watching for that either. I'm not saying you are wrong because it is a rule but I just couldn't call a kid on that.
 
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Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they drop the ball just before they cross the goal line. Should that count as a TD just because it's pee wee league? Of course not. Sometimes I read things on this site that shock me. Without the rules there are no sports. How about a kid who dives out of the way of a pitch that's about to hit him but his bat goes around unintentionally? They shouldn't call it a strike because the kid didn't mean to swing? What about a kid that makes a half court shot to win the game but he got it off a half second after the buzzer? Should they count it because he's young and it was a great shot? How about the junior golfer who tees it up a foot in front of the tee markers? No penalty because he's an 8th grader? You could go on forever.

This guy who was called out because he didn't touch the plate (and every other kid who played in that game) learned something more than just you need to touch the plate on a home run. Youth sports isn't just about the final score. I'm not saying you have to be a jerk about it or call the kid out with extra flair but to look the other way on the most basic of rules isn't the right thing to do. These weren't Kindergarteners goofing around on the playground, we're talking Little League here. Umpires, uniforms, winners and losers. For the adults to be fast and loose with the rules would be doing a disservice to the kids.

 
Pipes said:
belljr said:
:shrug: I'm really not competitive with my kids teams I am just surprised that people consider bush league in a 12u competitive team. It's not rec ball

what about if the team bats out of order when it was inadvertent also

I'm really not a crazy parent but at what age can you call this? High school?

eta rec ball no way I even mention it

12u travel these are the kids that play in the llws. That's the level where I say it starts to matter.

I grew up playing the game by all the rules early and have seen my fair share of ####### parents and coaches and teams. I would never run up scores take extra bases when winning by alot, this is pre mercy rule. It never occurred to me this particular play people would have issue. :shrug: I know it's a different time now and don't want to come off as a psycho sports parent ;) I'm really not
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Batting out of order is different...I think a runner missing a base when a ball is in play is different to me as well. I just think the kid earned a HR by actually hitting one out and in the excurberance of being a kid was so excited he didn't touch home. I coach little league and have been an assistant coach for our tournament teams and no way would I call on kid on that. Of course I wouldn't be watching for that either. I'm not saying you are wrong because it is a rule but I just couldn't call a kid on that.
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I see where you're coming from I've coached for a long long time and I temper my expectations based on the age of my kids and what level of the kids that I'm coaching so when I hear 12u competitive I think about it differently than like an 8/9 rec league.like I said I never considered that to be bush league but I can see now the other side of this

 
Willie Neslon said:
Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they drop the ball just before they cross the goal line. Should that count as a TD just because it's pee wee league? Of course not. Sometimes I read things on this site that shock me. Without the rules there are no sports. How about a kid who dives out of the way of a pitch that's about to hit him but his bat goes around unintentionally? They shouldn't call it a strike because the kid didn't mean to swing? What about a kid that makes a half court shot to win the game but he got it off a half second after the buzzer? Should they count it because he's young and it was a great shot? How about the junior golfer who tees it up a foot in front of the tee markers? No penalty because he's an 8th grader? You could go on forever.

This guy who was called out because he didn't touch the plate (and every other kid who played in that game) learned something more than just you need to touch the plate on a home run. Youth sports isn't just about the final score. I'm not saying you have to be a jerk about it or call the kid out with extra flair but to look the other way on the most basic of rules isn't the right thing to do. These weren't Kindergarteners goofing around on the playground, we're talking Little League here. Umpires, uniforms, winners and losers. For the adults to be fast and loose with the rules would be doing a disservice to the kids.
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All your comparisons give an advantage to someone on the particular play.

This is more of a technicality.

Not like the kid left early on a tag up play and was called out on an appeal.

With that said, lesson learned.

 
Pipes said:
belljr said:
:shrug: I'm really not competitive with my kids teams I am just surprised that people consider bush league in a 12u competitive team. It's not rec ball

what about if the team bats out of order when it was inadvertent also

I'm really not a crazy parent but at what age can you call this? High school?

eta rec ball no way I even mention it

12u travel these are the kids that play in the llws. That's the level where I say it starts to matter.

I grew up playing the game by all the rules early and have seen my fair share of ####### parents and coaches and teams. I would never run up scores take extra bases when winning by alot, this is pre mercy rule. It never occurred to me this particular play people would have issue. :shrug: I know it's a different time now and don't want to come off as a psycho sports parent ;) I'm really not
Click to expand...
Batting out of order is different...I think a runner missing a base when a ball is in play is different to me as well. I just think the kid earned a HR by actually hitting one out and in the excurberance of being a kid was so excited he didn't touch home. I coach little league and have been an assistant coach for our tournament teams and no way would I call on kid on that. Of course I wouldn't be watching for that either. I'm not saying you are wrong because it is a rule but I just couldn't call a kid on that.
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I could see both arguments here. I didn't have a problem with the other coach appealing it. We were able to use it as a teachable moment. We had two more home runs hit today on our team, and it was funny watching the kids emphatically stomp on home plate each time.

Interesting twist...we met the same team in the semifinal round of the tournament today. One of their kids hit a 2 run HR. The base runner, not the hitter, looked like he stepped over home plate missing it. I looked at our head coach and he looked at me...we both just shook our heads and let it go. I think we would have won the appeal as the ump kept looking hard at the footprint. We just let it go. This other team was much better than us anyway and it wasn't going to make a difference in the outcome.

Back to the scoring question though...Who would get credit for the defensive stat? Catcher gets the put out? Does pitcher get an assist? Would it simply be marked as an "out on an appeal" without any individual getting the stat? I know it doesn't matter much at 12u, but I am just curious as to how it would be recorded if this were perhaps a higher level of baseball.

 
Willie Neslon said:
Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they

Click to expand...
It's not being fast and loose with the rules the kid actually hit the HR over the fence, I get your position but it's not like this is a rule during the flow of a game. Everyone in both dugouts and in the crowd knows it was a HR yet the kid gets called out because he missed home in the excitement. I know you're technically correct but I also feel the coach was a dbag for looking for and appealing that. I'd be upset if our coach appealed and benefitted out kids.

Yes the kids learned a lesson here...look for technicalities. I'm sure none of the kids even realized he missed home so letting it go doesn't set a bad example to break the rules. Now these kids learned to always analize the rulebook or look for loopholes. I get it by the book you are correct but this is why I think adults have in some way have ruined youth sports. I wish things were like when I was a kid and we'd get together and just play ball and back in the day that would've been a HR.

 
Bush league call. The kid made it to homeplate and forgot to touch it. I'd be embarrased if I was that opposing coach and tried to call that.

 
Pipes said:
Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they

Click to expand...
I just don't see the lesson being "look for technicalities" or analyze the rulebook for loopholes. What the heck is wrong with kids learning the rules? Just have HR derbies instead if playing by the rules of baseball is a problem. Adults are not ruining youth sports by enforcing the rules of the game. Some adults take competitiveness way too far because they make it about themselves but this is not one of those cases. Maybe the ump could have politely reminded the kid to touch the plate but to say he shouldn't have called him out because not touching it is a "technicality" just isn't right. The umpire doesn't get to decide which rules he wants to enforce.

 
Willie Neslon said:
Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they

Click to expand...
I disagree this is exactly one of those cases, Coach completely made it about himself instead of the kid who hit the ball over the fence. Country Boy posted a similar thing happened today and they let it go. Again technically you are correct but you won't convince me that the other coach wasn't a complete tool for appealing.

 
Willie Neslon said:
Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they

Click to expand...
Also where did I say the umpire shouldn't call him out? The ump did his job by enforcing the rule...my beef is 100% with the opposing coach.

 
Pipes said:
Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they

Click to expand...
I guess I was referring to another post in which someone said they wouldn't call the kid out if they were the ump. Still, if the kid is mobbed 20 feet from home plate and just walks to the dugout, if kids on your team are telling you he didn't touch the plate you're going to ignore them? You're in the moment, you're the manager. Maybe in hindsight you think maybe you should have let it go and not appealed. Definitely not a situation where anyone is happy about it.

 
Willie Neslon said:
Touching the plate in order to score a run is about as basic a rule as there is in the sport. Of course it should be called an out on appeal. To me it's similar to the play in football when someone is going in for a TD, they're 30 yards clear of the nearest defender and they

Click to expand...
It is a no win situation for everyone involved. I really think I'd let it go and if an opposing coach did that to our team I'd make sure his team followed every rule to the T and if they didn't I'd call them out. Probably not the best way to handle it but I'm picturing this opposing coach in my mind and have encountered his likes before,..hate that guy.

I'm glad the ump called the kid out if he truly didnt touch home. You can't have umps selectively enforcing the rules. Glad it work out for Country Boy's team with the kids emphatically touching home....seemed like they learned their lesson well.

 
This isn't an obscure rule, or some super-technical detail.

It's touching all 4 bases to make a HR official.

It's been that way pretty much forever; it's a rule all players should be taught, and know.

I remember reading a long time ago about Hank Aaron (I think it was Hammerin' Hank - I couldn't find it with a quick google search) standing in the outfield after the other team had hit a game winning HR in the 9th, carefully watching to make sure the runner touched all 4 bases.

That's always stuck with me - the level of competitiveness it showed, the knowledge it showed, and not giving up until the game was truly over.

 
The opposing coach was correct to enforce the rule. If I were that coach, I'd make sure my guys knew we were appealing the no touch of home. Let them carry out the appeal. You can do it without being a dbag about it.

And no, it is NOT a "technicality". It's part of the rules.

 
I can't believe people are drawing comparisons to big time college football and the pros. This is 12 year old baseball. And people have some pretty disjointed ideas about rules enforcement. You do realize it is technically illegal to roll through a stop-sign right? And keeping it to baseball, you really don't have to touch second base when turning a double play (the neighborhood concept). Umpires can and do enforce rules to varying degrees at their discretion. It's called using judgment, and the best umpires are the ones who don't blindly follow the letter of the law, but apply appropriate levels of discretion with the governing principle of not giving one team an unfair advantage over the other.

I once saw an umpire call "verbal interference" in the championship game of an ASA softball game in the bottom of the 8th inning in a tie game. There was 1 out, a runner at third, and the batter hit a deep fly ball to left field. The guy at third was a goofball and tagged up and ran home yelling at the top of his lungs. There wasn't a play at the plate - the ball arrived to the catcher about a second after he touched home plate - but the ump called him out for verbal interference. Technically he did violate a rule, but just a bush league move to call that there, especially when it didn't impact the play.

And then there's the story of Gabe Kapler. He was on 2nd base when Tony Graffanino hut a homerun. While running to third Kapler tore his Achilles and collapsed on the ground. He didn't touch home. He couldn't move. The ump made the decision to allow a pinch runner for Kapler. It wasn't in the rule book, but it was the right thing to do.

 
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