bigreese82
Footballguy
Better dynasty prospect and why? Make your case 
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Battle of the Young Guns..Who do you want? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter bigreese82
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Bears_Man2
Footballguy
Both are in good situations. I'd put their upsides as low #1 guys in a 12-team league.
I'm not sold on Simms myself. I'd probably go for Rivers and hopes he allows his stars to do the work.
I'm not sold on Simms myself. I'd probably go for Rivers and hopes he allows his stars to do the work.
mightyeskimo
Footballguy
As a Clayton owner I would hope Sims!
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
Most people are picking Rivers, but few are saying why. Rivers is a little more than a year younger. I actually prefer Simms. I think it is funny that people see Simms as more unproven than Rivers. Perhaps less talented, but how exactly is he less proven? I like that Simms made headway and will be an UFA next year. He will either resign or hand pick his situation. Tampa has good coaching, good offensive skill players, and addressed the line in the draft. The problem with Simms was never his natural ability; it was poor decision making and at Texas- poor schemes for his skill set. I believe that he has learned under Gruden.Better dynasty prospect and why? Make your case
Bears_Man2
Footballguy
I agree 100%. I think Gruden will put him the position to manage the team vs. win (and I don't equate that to ever being a great fantasy QB).As I posted above, I'm not sold on Simms (and that reason is his decision making). I think having Gates is a great safety blanket for Rivers.problem with Simms was never his natural ability; it was poor decision makingBetter dynasty prospect and why? Make your case
From this point forward, it's very possible that Simms could be 1 year and done as an NFL starter.......I don't see Rivers getting any less than 2 years to prove himself. I do expect both to be long-term starters with the talent around them. I'd just rather take my chances on Rivers with LT & Gates. I could see him putting up Brees numbers at some point & I don't see the same with Simms.
Traders2001
Footballguy
I think Simms does nt even finish the season as the starter , i was really disappointed in the way he played last season.\He looks lost on the football field.
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I say Simms because his situation has more upside.
-Rivers at his peak will put up points like Brees, as long as LT is arround. Also, San Diegos defense is on the way up.
-Simms is in a place where the defense is gettig old, and Gruden has drafted primarily offense since he has been in charge. The D can't get better in Tampa, only worse. Also, take a look at the Raiders fantasy numbers when Gruden was there.
-Rivers at his peak will put up points like Brees, as long as LT is arround. Also, San Diegos defense is on the way up.
-Simms is in a place where the defense is gettig old, and Gruden has drafted primarily offense since he has been in charge. The D can't get better in Tampa, only worse. Also, take a look at the Raiders fantasy numbers when Gruden was there.
I thought he looked pretty solid.If he doesn't finish Gruden has 3 other QB's that could potentially do just as well. Luke Mcnown is a big sleeper who Gruden supposedly like so much he has locked up the number 2 spot. Rattay may be on his way out, as the rookie Gradkowski fits perfect in Grudens system (accurate and smart).
dgreen
Footballguy
I say Simms because his situation has more upside.
-Rivers at his peak will put up points like Brees, as long as LT is arround. Also, San Diegos defense is on the way up.
-Simms is in a place where the defense is gettig old, and Gruden has drafted primarily offense since he has been in charge. The D can't get better in Tampa, only worse. Also, take a look at the Raiders fantasy numbers when Gruden was there.
Gruden made Gannon and got good production out of Griese. Also, don't ignore Bobby Hoying with Gruden in Philly.128-225-1573-11-6 in only seven games for Hoying.
Gruden is to QB's, what Shanny is to RB's.I say Simms because his situation has more upside.
-Rivers at his peak will put up points like Brees, as long as LT is arround. Also, San Diegos defense is on the way up.
-Simms is in a place where the defense is gettig old, and Gruden has drafted primarily offense since he has been in charge. The D can't get better in Tampa, only worse. Also, take a look at the Raiders fantasy numbers when Gruden was there.
128-225-1573-11-6 in only seven games for Hoying.
Gargoylez
Footballguy
LMAOPlease some insight on this.
Simms played the #3 defense in the playoffs and did VERY VERY well except for the Guards getting pushed back into him and resulting in tipped balls and INT's. Simms actually threw the prettiest ball I have seen in a while to Shepard who dropped it in the endzone in that game.
That is just the proof that Simms has really come around.
Rivers is so unproven its incredible.
So to say Rivers by a wide margin either means your a BIG rivers fan or you havent watched much football in life or you are just fishing... Rivers could be a great QB, but this year. NO.
Simms is head and shoulders above Rivers IMO, just because how well SImms has progressed.
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
I watched plenty of football, and i tend to agree with him.
I'm liking both of them to be good starters, but not superstar material. Simms has the bloodlines along with another year of experience (he was essentially a rookie starter last year) but Rivers has more offensive talent and better physical skills....but it's still hard to tell how his abilities will translate into the NFL.
If you take Simms, you're guaranteed, IMO at least a decent QB, but maybe nothing better than average. Rivers could be superstar, but could also be a total bust. Take your pick.
If you take Simms, you're guaranteed, IMO at least a decent QB, but maybe nothing better than average. Rivers could be superstar, but could also be a total bust. Take your pick.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Rivers has more identifiable offensive talent surrounding him and was a top NFL prospect. All things in his favor.
Simms has more starting experience under his belt, and is playing for a coach who has had a Parcells like effect on his QBs.
Schottenheimer will never be accused of being a fantasy QBs best friend.
Rivers seems like a safer bet, while Simms is a guy who could grow into a fantasy monster if he ends up being Gruden's guy.
Simms has more starting experience under his belt, and is playing for a coach who has had a Parcells like effect on his QBs.
Schottenheimer will never be accused of being a fantasy QBs best friend.
Rivers seems like a safer bet, while Simms is a guy who could grow into a fantasy monster if he ends up being Gruden's guy.
Beaumont
Footballguy
You seem to be in the minority. I watched Rivers in college and a few times in the pros. I watched a lot of Simms last year -- pretty much every time he played since I had him in a redraft. Watched alomst every UT game here in Beaumont when he was in college.Rivers has a much better supporting cast on a much better/more proven offense ...
I own them both in several different leagues ... its nothing personal ...
nygiants56
Footballguy
seriously!? at least Simms has a few games under his belt as a starting QB.He also plays for a coach who took a no-name guy like Rich Gannon and turned him into the NFL MVP. I take Simms over Rivers in a heartbeat..Simms is in a more pass-happy attack with an offensive mastermind at the helm (Gruden). Marty Shottenheimer didn't like losing Drew Brees, does it affect the way he coaches the team now that he's forced to use Rivers at QB?Maybe in the long run, Rivers could be better, but he'll struggle mightily in 2006. EVERY QB has struggled when they first became starters...it takes time to develop. It is one thing to carry a clipboard, but starting and playing in every game
is completely different. Aikman,Palmer,Manning(s) ALL struggled in their first few years as starting QB's..Rivers is going to be no different, IMO.
I'm lukewarm on Rivers..IMO he'lll be selected WAY too early in many fantasy drafts. Simms has super sleeper written all over him. Gruden will likely take the training wheels off, and let Simms throw much more in 2006!
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I don't know how anyone can make such definitive statements in this thread, as we have seen very little of either QB on an NFL level. Statements like "not even close" seem a little biased.
ETA: Obviusly the original poster is looking for an opinion and that is what is being offered, but I think they need to be tempered a little.
I like Rivers better based on their college careers and the little I've seen of Simms in the NFL. I just think Rivers has more potential. Simms can learn to be a good game manager imo, but looks ackward and stiff at times. The game seems to be a struggle for him physically, he just doesn't seem like a "natural" QB.
ETA: Obviusly the original poster is looking for an opinion and that is what is being offered, but I think they need to be tempered a little.
I like Rivers better based on their college careers and the little I've seen of Simms in the NFL. I just think Rivers has more potential. Simms can learn to be a good game manager imo, but looks ackward and stiff at times. The game seems to be a struggle for him physically, he just doesn't seem like a "natural" QB.
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cstu
Footballguy
Both Rivers and Simms are in good situations with solid WR's, RB's and decent OL's. The main differences are experience, coaching philosophy, college success, and draft position.
Experience - Obviously Simms has the advantage here since he has actually started in the NFL. His numbers were good (61%, 10 TD, 7 INT) in only his second season.
Coaching Philosophy - We've seen what Gruden can do to make QB's successful and it seems to be working for Simms. Gruden is not afraid to let his QB throw the ball 30+ times a game, an advantage for Simms. Marty on the other hand would prefer to run the ball and tends to get conservative. However, he is a smart enough coach to pass when he has a good passing QB.
College Success - Rivers had one of the best college careers in history. He ran a pro-style offense and was MVP of three Bowl games. Simms had a very good college career with his biggest knock that he struggled in big games.
Draft Position - Simms was the last pick of Day 1 of the draft and Rivers was the #4 overall pick. Draft position isn't the best indicator of NFL success, but it does show what teams thought about them coming out of college.
I'm biased towards Rivers as a Chargers fan, but objectively I can say that this is a close call. In the end, I have to go with Rivers based on his talent and the talent on his team, but Simms is in a good situation with a QB-friendly coach.
Experience - Obviously Simms has the advantage here since he has actually started in the NFL. His numbers were good (61%, 10 TD, 7 INT) in only his second season.
Coaching Philosophy - We've seen what Gruden can do to make QB's successful and it seems to be working for Simms. Gruden is not afraid to let his QB throw the ball 30+ times a game, an advantage for Simms. Marty on the other hand would prefer to run the ball and tends to get conservative. However, he is a smart enough coach to pass when he has a good passing QB.
College Success - Rivers had one of the best college careers in history. He ran a pro-style offense and was MVP of three Bowl games. Simms had a very good college career with his biggest knock that he struggled in big games.
Draft Position - Simms was the last pick of Day 1 of the draft and Rivers was the #4 overall pick. Draft position isn't the best indicator of NFL success, but it does show what teams thought about them coming out of college.
I'm biased towards Rivers as a Chargers fan, but objectively I can say that this is a close call. In the end, I have to go with Rivers based on his talent and the talent on his team, but Simms is in a good situation with a QB-friendly coach.
Gargoylez
Footballguy
Watch the Playoff game against Washington?????Simms played the #3 defense in the playoffs and did VERY VERY well except for the Guards getting pushed back into him and resulting in tipped balls and INT's. Simms actually threw the prettiest ball I have seen in a while to Shepard who dropped it in the endzone in that game.I watched plenty of football, and i tend to agree with him.
Essentially he did everything but win that game and because Shepard dropped it, they lost.
Better then Brunell looked in two outings in the 2 playoff games and he is a Vet with Playoff experience.
Basing everything from College. Sorry. Thats just funny.My point? When the season was on the line, pressure was on... Simms excelled and played very well.
Rivers threw @ 30 passes last year in meaningless games.
Not saying Rivers WONT be better, but to DIS Simms after that playoff performance? Your not watching football.
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
I saw the Washington game, and i will say, he did not look as bad in that game as he did all year.With that said, that was the only decent game i saw him play all year, and he still didnt even throw for 200 yards, had 0 TD's and two INT's, his team didnt win and only scored 10 points. I hope you are basing his future success on more than that one game?Watch the Playoff game against Washington?????Simms played the #3 defense in the playoffs and did VERY VERY well except for the Guards getting pushed back into him and resulting in tipped balls and INT's. Simms actually threw the prettiest ball I have seen in a while to Shepard who dropped it in the endzone in that game.I watched plenty of football, and i tend to agree with him.
Essentially he did everything but win that game and because Shepard dropped it, they lost.
Better then Brunell looked in two outings in the 2 playoff games and he is a Vet with Playoff experience.
My point? When the season was on the line, pressure was on... Simms excelled and played very well.
Rivers threw @ 30 passes last year in meaningless games.
Not saying Rivers WONT be better, but to DIS Simms after that playoff performance? Your not watching football.
bigreese82
Footballguy
Never expected people to be so down on Sims and high on Rivers
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
In my mind, it's a tough call.You have a lesser draft prospect playing for a coach that has had teams put up big passing seasons, but has a new toy RB he has a huge man crush on that was a top 5 pick vs a top NFL QB prospect playing for ultra conservative Marty Schottenheimer who's latest QB had back to back top 12 fantasy seasons.
Ideally you'd want Phillip Rivers playing for Tampa.
Tau837
Footballguy
You seem to imply that if Simms has to sign elsewhere that he will definitely have a good situation to hand pick. You may be right, but that is certainly not a given.
This is an underappreciated point in this thread, given that the topic refers to dynasty. Most likely, no dynasty team is going to choose either of these guys to be its QB1 for this year... which means you are probably looking more beyond this year... which, even if all else were even, favors Rivers due to the contracts.
Tau837
Footballguy
IMO this is overblown. Gruden was HC for 4 years in Oakland, and now 4 years in Tampa. Results:1998 Raiders:Gruden is to QB's, what Shanny is to RB's.I say Simms because his situation has more upside.
-Rivers at his peak will put up points like Brees, as long as LT is arround. Also, San Diegos defense is on the way up.
-Simms is in a place where the defense is gettig old, and Gruden has drafted primarily offense since he has been in charge. The D can't get better in Tampa, only worse. Also, take a look at the Raiders fantasy numbers when Gruden was there.
128-225-1573-11-6 in only seven games for Hoying.
Team Offense |---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD 282 519 3534 6.81 21 25 449 1727 3.85 6 5261NFL rank ---> 17 16 16 14 14 28 17 16 18 29 15Quarterbacks+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Jeff George | 8 | 93 169 55.0 1186 7.0 4 5 | 8 2 0 || Donald Hollas | 12 | 135 260 51.9 1754 6.7 10 16 | 29 120 1 || Wade Wilson | 6 | 52 88 59.1 568 6.5 7 4 | 7 24 0 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+Below average performance as a group.From 1999-2001, he had Gannon, who was a top 4 fantasy QB each of those seasons. But was that due to Gruden, or due to Gannon's own maturation as a QB? Gannon had his best season immediately after Gruden left.
2002 Bucs:
Team Offense |---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD 348 567 3665 6.46 23 10 414 1557 3.76 6 5222NFL rank ---> 12 11 16 21 14 3 24 27 28 32 24Quarterbacks+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Brad Johnson | 13 | 281 451 62.3 3049 6.8 22 6 | 13 30 0 || Rob Johnson | 6 | 57 88 64.8 536 6.1 1 2 | 14 73 0 || Shaun King | 3 | 10 27 37.0 80 3.0 0 1 | 4 25 0 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+Fairly average, other than the low interception total.In 2003, Brad Johnson had a great year. Was that because of Gruden? Remember, Johnson had performed well previously in Washington & Minnesota.
2004 Bucs:
Team Offense |---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD 341 512 3773 7.37 24 18 393 1489 3.79 9 5262NFL rank ---> 7 20 12 13 11 22 27 29 25 28 21Quarterbacks+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Brian Griese | 11 | 233 336 69.3 2632 7.8 20 12 | 30 17 0 || Brad Johnson | 4 | 65 103 63.1 674 6.5 3 3 | 5 23 0 || Chris Simms | 5 | 42 73 57.5 467 6.4 1 3 | 7 14 0 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+Passing game was above average, but not top 10. Griese was the main guy, but he had shown some promise in Denver. Was this more than the normal maturation of a QB?That brings us to last year:
|---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD 302 486 3171 6.52 17 14 457 1826 4.00 13 4997NFL rank ---> 16 21 24 19 24 11 15 14 14 15 23Quarterbacks+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Brian Griese | 6 | 112 174 64.4 1136 6.5 7 7 | 13 12 0 || Chris Simms | 11 | 191 313 61.0 2035 6.5 10 7 | 19 31 0 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+Certainly nothing to write home about here, either for the Bucs' passing offense or for Simms.Look, I agree Gruden is a smart offensive coach, and he generally helps his QBs. Just note that his record is built primarily on the success of Gannon & Brad Johnson, two veterans who had been around for a long time. The closest parallel to Simms in Gruden's history is Griese, but the sample set is too small to draw much from it... and what success was had there did not lead to long term success for Griese with the Bucs (or elsewhere, for that matter).
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
I think that the question here is really silly.
You have no sample size to judge Philip Rivers accurately. He had all of 23 attempts last year; 22 passing and 1 rushing. He was dismal with minimal impact in the game he played. He could easily end up just like Ryan Leaf.
Simms had a very positive TD/ INT ratio, and given that the O-Line, RB and WR positions all suffered last year at Tampa Bay, I would put Simms ahead of Rivers.
I also do not buy that San Diego has a better receiving situation. Tomlinson and Gates are fantastic, but no one else has stepped up. McCardell is getting too old and he will be done soon.
Tampa Bay has a rejuvenated Galloway and Clayton along with Alex Smith and Cadillac.
You have no sample size to judge Philip Rivers accurately. He had all of 23 attempts last year; 22 passing and 1 rushing. He was dismal with minimal impact in the game he played. He could easily end up just like Ryan Leaf.
Simms had a very positive TD/ INT ratio, and given that the O-Line, RB and WR positions all suffered last year at Tampa Bay, I would put Simms ahead of Rivers.
I also do not buy that San Diego has a better receiving situation. Tomlinson and Gates are fantastic, but no one else has stepped up. McCardell is getting too old and he will be done soon.
Tampa Bay has a rejuvenated Galloway and Clayton along with Alex Smith and Cadillac.
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
cstu,
Galloway is basically 2 years younger than McCardell age-wise and 3 years younger football-wise.
Also, Galloway has nearly 6 years where he had minimal wear and tear on his body, and he re-emerged last year with a performance typical to the start of his career.
I would also say that Clayton is far superior to Parker or VJ when he is healthy. He was Top 13 in 2004 in fantasy points and Top 5 from a ppg perspective the same year.
Parker is Top 40 material only.
VJ needs to catch a few balls before you can tout him, and he will be 3 years out before you know if his a Chad Johnson or a Ashley Lelie ...
Gates is certainly peforming at a top level, and certainly Smith has a long way to go to compete with him.
Galloway is basically 2 years younger than McCardell age-wise and 3 years younger football-wise.
Also, Galloway has nearly 6 years where he had minimal wear and tear on his body, and he re-emerged last year with a performance typical to the start of his career.
I would also say that Clayton is far superior to Parker or VJ when he is healthy. He was Top 13 in 2004 in fantasy points and Top 5 from a ppg perspective the same year.
Parker is Top 40 material only.
VJ needs to catch a few balls before you can tout him, and he will be 3 years out before you know if his a Chad Johnson or a Ashley Lelie ...
Gates is certainly peforming at a top level, and certainly Smith has a long way to go to compete with him.
Tau837
Footballguy
With respect to that "very positive" TD/INT ratio, Simms threw 10 TDs to 9 interceptions last season, including his playoff game (and why not count it, since he has such a small sample size to work with). Looking beyond last season, his career ratio is 11/12, again counting that one postseason game.As for other statistics, Simms has averaged a very pedestrian 6.5 ypa in his career. I will grant you that his career completion percentage of 60.4% isn't bad for a young QB, but that is at least partially due to Gruden's completion percentage friendly offense... and given that accuracy was a strength for Rivers in college, I don't see this one positive as giving him a leg up on Rivers in this comparison.I agree that Rivers has not established a track record, but why does that put Simms ahead of him? Simms has established a track record, which, depending on your perspective, is somewhere between poor and average. Rivers could easily be better in his first year as a starter.
