Beanie and Hightower (1 Viewer)

[kutta]

Let me preface this by saying that I agree with entire football world that Beanie is a better back that Hightower and that Beanie can be a special back in this league. I also think Hightower is an average talent and is best suited for 3rd down duties.

However, what I see and hear from the AZ coaching staff is something different. First of all, Hightower is still the starter. Second, Hightower doesn't fumble. Third, Hightower stays healthy. Fourth, the coaches have not said that Beanie will get more carries, in fact it is looking like a 50/50 split. And with Beanie's fumbling problems, I suspect Hightower will end up with the goal line work.

Also, Beanie is not a great receiver and Hightower was 2nd only to Ray Rice last year for receptions by a RB. In PPR leagues, Hightower is a bargain at his ADP.

Hightower may not outscore Beanie in FF points this year (but I do think he outscores Beanie in PPR leagues). But it will be MUCH closer than most people think, and instead of giving up a 3rd or 4th rounder for Beanie, why not wait until the 8th or 9th and grab Hightower and get similar production at a much lower cost?

Anyway, with so much talk about the AZ QB's this year, I thought we could switch it up a little and talk RB's.

 

[Multiple Scores]

Again?

This has been beaten to death.

 

[habsfan]

Hightower is definitely the guy I will be less disappointed to have owned this year...

 

[shnikies]

Again? This has been beaten to death.

If somebody offered me Chris Wells or Hightower, I'd take Wells but I wouldn't draft him if you know what I mean.

 

[Hjelle9]

Chris Wells is gonna beast out all over your faces

 

[damageinc]

Yes this has been beaten to death but cant say it enough. I own Beanie and sorry I didnt wait for Hightower instead. I would trade Beanie straight up for Hightower. Personally while Wells is alot more talented , Hightower is more then a 3rd down back. If the Cards ever cut or let Hightower go he would be the hottest RB on the market. He has decent speed, can break tackles , great on the goal line and can pass cath better then anyone not named Ray Rice. He also superior then most RB's at pass protection. hes a complete back. Wells is the better pure runner But wells cant catch, pass protect and makes mistakes from what I read. the coaching staff trust Hightower.

 

[Hendo]

Now I heard it all... Hightower doesn't fumble.... lol

 

[Loan Sharks]

Chris Wells is gonna beast out all over your faces

This is the correct response.

 

[Casting Couch]

I won't say Hightower is the one to own, but if you only have Wells, you'll be wishing you had Hightower. He will put a phat dent into BWs numbers.

 

[kutta]

Now I heard it all... Hightower doesn't fumble.... lol

I should have been more clear. Hightower doesn't fumble in critical situations. Beanie coughs the ball up later in games and near the goal line. Hightower seems to fumble earlier in games and not so much later in games. I don't have stats for that, but that's my recollection.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Hightower can catch and block. The rest, not so much.

 

[Fantaholic]

I agree wholeheartedly with the poster. I grabbed Hightower in the 9th round of a 12-teamer last night. Assuming health for both, the production of these two backs will be similar at year's end. However, they will be picked several rounds apart. Hightower is value in any league, but in PPR he represents theft.

 

[Inspiration]

Also, Beanie is not a great receiver and Hightower was 2nd only to Ray Rice last year for receptions by a RB. In PPR leagues, Hightower is a bargain at his ADP.Hightower may not outscore Beanie in FF points this year (but I do think he outscores Beanie in PPR leagues).

Hightower also led all RBs in dropped passes last season and was well below average with the ball in his hands after the catch. I agree that he is excellent in pass protection, but I think that he is average at best as a receiver. His large receiving numbers last season were the result of a number of factors independent of Hightower's actual receiving ability (poor tackle play, WR injuries, Warner hip injury/loss of deep accuracy, lack of confidence in pass protection abilities of all other RBs on the roster). The coaching staff seemed to recognize this, pulling Hightower off the field in empty-backfield formations in favor of LaRod Stephens-Howling (as well as subbing in LSH or Jason Wright for Hightower on many passing plays with the RB as the primary receiver). While he'll still be a factor in the passing game, I don't believe that Hightower's snaps on passing downs are as safe as many seem to assume, especially if the coaching staff is looking for a more dynamic threat out of backfield (an example would be Adrian Peterson eating into Chester Taylor's passing down snaps last season despite Taylor's edge in pass-protection ability).

 

[Captain Hook]

Well if Derek Anderson is the same quarterback Cleveland saw last year, it may not matter - if there is not better QB play than Arizona has shown in pre-season, it will be a long year for BOTH Wells and Hightower

True with that schedule if DA can scare people with enough passes they can both provide RB2 numbers in PPR leagues - non PPR you just have to guess who is going to get the goal line carries - if there are enough

 

[azgroover]

Now I heard it all... Hightower doesn't fumble.... lol

I should have been more clear. Hightower doesn't fumble in critical situations. Beanie coughs the ball up later in games and near the goal line. Hightower seems to fumble earlier in games and not so much later in games. I don't have stats for that, but that's my recollection.

I agree with you on how puzzling it is that Wells isn't even a starter yet people were snatching him up in drafts.Check out this

I was able to shoot at the Cards/Colts game last year.

 

[two_dollars]

I'm not the most thrilled about the Arizona RB situation, but Chris Wells was staring at me in round 9 as my rb4, and I couldn't pass him up. I do think he's the better runner but I do think it will be a split, and the better rb will be tougher to predict week in and week out.

 

[tsarc888]

I actually think right now, Wells is starting to become the better value. I say this because people are very down on him yet he still has big upside. Hightower is not going to do much for you even though he'll go later. Wells in the the mid rounds could still emerge.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

This is just one of those threads that indicate that we need the season to start already. All that's been said about these guys this preseason has been said:

* Depending on your draft and how far either slip, both of these guys have value

* However, that value may be diminished if the Cards can't get their O in general sparked.

* Unless one goes down to injury, they will both take carries away from the other. This is near-textbook RBBC, folks

* Wells may be a purer rusher and get more rush yardage and TDs, Hightower is the one with more value in PPR given his presence and aptitude in the receiving game

Let's get to the smashmouth on the gridiron already, where we can watch how this tandem develops through this year.

I think both can have a solid day against the Rams in Week 1.

 

[kegtron]

I'm not the most thrilled about the Arizona RB situation, but Chris Wells was staring at me in round 9 as my rb4, and I couldn't pass him up. I do think he's the better runner but I do think it will be a split, and the better rb will be tougher to predict week in and week out.

I got him in the 8th

 

[tsarc888]

I'm not the most thrilled about the Arizona RB situation, but Chris Wells was staring at me in round 9 as my rb4, and I couldn't pass him up. I do think he's the better runner but I do think it will be a split, and the better rb will be tougher to predict week in and week out.

I got him in the 8th

nice. exactly my point above. Wells in the 7-9th round is WAY better value than Hightower in the 10th. With my later picks, I want upside.

 

[damageinc]

I do agree now Wells is becoming the better value pick . he isdropping to round 9 ish but just a few weeks ago some people had him as a #2 Rb and I look at mags like fanball where I believe he is ranked 11th meaning in a 12 team league he is a #1 Rb. Thats when it was ridiculous.

 

[gregjcross]

I do agree now Wells is becoming the better value pick . he isdropping to round 9 ish but just a few weeks ago some people had him as a #2 Rb and I look at mags like fanball where I believe he is ranked 11th meaning in a 12 team league he is a #1 Rb. Thats when it was ridiculous.

This reminds me of all the Ronnie Brown bickering from three years back. If a situation is that flawed from a fantasy perspective; just stay away from it. I see this situation as even worse. I was earlier convinced that Beanie was going to take over, its getting more likely he wont. and AZ wont be that good anyway.

 

[DoubleG]

Also, Beanie is not a great receiver and Hightower was 2nd only to Ray Rice last year for receptions by a RB. In PPR leagues, Hightower is a bargain at his ADP.Hightower may not outscore Beanie in FF points this year (but I do think he outscores Beanie in PPR leagues).

Hightower also led all RBs in dropped passes last season and was well below average with the ball in his hands after the catch. I agree that he is excellent in pass protection, but I think that he is average at best as a receiver. His large receiving numbers last season were the result of a number of factors independent of Hightower's actual receiving ability (poor tackle play, WR injuries, Warner hip injury/loss of deep accuracy, lack of confidence in pass protection abilities of all other RBs on the roster). The coaching staff seemed to recognize this, pulling Hightower off the field in empty-backfield formations in favor of LaRod Stephens-Howling (as well as subbing in LSH or Jason Wright for Hightower on many passing plays with the RB as the primary receiver). While he'll still be a factor in the passing game, I don't believe that Hightower's snaps on passing downs are as safe as many seem to assume, especially if the coaching staff is looking for a more dynamic threat out of backfield (an example would be Adrian Peterson eating into Chester Taylor's passing down snaps last season despite Taylor's edge in pass-protection ability).

Many people look at receptions and think "THT must be a great receiver and Wells not" - when in fact if you look at catch %, the opposite is true. Granted, it's a small sample size for Wells, but he was top 20 in RBs in catch%/targets. It comes down to usage. If the OP (and most other people) can see that Wells is a superior talent to THT in virtually every aspect of the game, do you really think the coaches can't tell? Now some of it is the veteran vs. the younger guy thing - and some might be $$$ related. The fact is, they know who the better RB is - and it's only a matter of time before he starts getting more work, in all facets of the game, than Hightower.

 

[laughinboy_2000]

How come nobody has mentioned the fact that the Cards LOST their starting fullback? That's a big blow I believe to both Beanie and THigh. Anyone else have thoughts on how the FB loss may affect the Cards running the ball w/o their starting FB who was opening up holes? I own THigh, but am looking maybe to trade him to the team who has Beanie to upgrade at other positions. I personally feel the running game will struggle a bit this year w/o out Warner and now their FB. Then again, the Cards have an incredibly easy schedule this year. What says the shark pool on trading THigh or Bonzi?

Thoughts??

 

[kutta]

Now I heard it all... Hightower doesn't fumble.... lol

I should have been more clear. Hightower doesn't fumble in critical situations. Beanie coughs the ball up later in games and near the goal line. Hightower seems to fumble earlier in games and not so much later in games. I don't have stats for that, but that's my recollection.

I agree with you on how puzzling it is that Wells isn't even a starter yet people were snatching him up in drafts.Check out this

That's some great looking video. What did you use to shoot it?

 

[kutta]

Also, Beanie is not a great receiver and Hightower was 2nd only to Ray Rice last year for receptions by a RB. In PPR leagues, Hightower is a bargain at his ADP.Hightower may not outscore Beanie in FF points this year (but I do think he outscores Beanie in PPR leagues).

Hightower also led all RBs in dropped passes last season and was well below average with the ball in his hands after the catch. I agree that he is excellent in pass protection, but I think that he is average at best as a receiver. His large receiving numbers last season were the result of a number of factors independent of Hightower's actual receiving ability (poor tackle play, WR injuries, Warner hip injury/loss of deep accuracy, lack of confidence in pass protection abilities of all other RBs on the roster). The coaching staff seemed to recognize this, pulling Hightower off the field in empty-backfield formations in favor of LaRod Stephens-Howling (as well as subbing in LSH or Jason Wright for Hightower on many passing plays with the RB as the primary receiver). While he'll still be a factor in the passing game, I don't believe that Hightower's snaps on passing downs are as safe as many seem to assume, especially if the coaching staff is looking for a more dynamic threat out of backfield (an example would be Adrian Peterson eating into Chester Taylor's passing down snaps last season despite Taylor's edge in pass-protection ability).

Many people look at receptions and think "THT must be a great receiver and Wells not" - when in fact if you look at catch %, the opposite is true. Granted, it's a small sample size for Wells, but he was top 20 in RBs in catch%/targets. It comes down to usage. If the OP (and most other people) can see that Wells is a superior talent to THT in virtually every aspect of the game, do you really think the coaches can't tell? Now some of it is the veteran vs. the younger guy thing - and some might be $$$ related. The fact is, they know who the better RB is - and it's only a matter of time before he starts getting more work, in all facets of the game, than Hightower.

12 receptions. That's what Beanie had last year. There is no way you can start drawing conclusions that he is a good receiver out of the backfield with that few catches. Hightower had 12 catches in one game last year.I do agree that there are many reasons why Hightower had so many receptions last year, but the point is that he had the VAST majority of receptions for Cardinals RBs last year. Here's the breakdown:Hightower: 63Beanie: 12Stephens-Howling: 10Wright: 9Kreider: 4Hightower had almost twice as many receptions as all the other RB's combined. I agree that Beanie will catch a few more balls this year, but to say that Hightower is not a good receiver is a bit naive, IMO. As you said in your response, don't you think the coaches can tell if he isn't a good receiver, and if he isn't good, why did they use him so much last year in that role?

 

[kutta]

I do agree now Wells is becoming the better value pick . he isdropping to round 9 ish but just a few weeks ago some people had him as a #2 Rb and I look at mags like fanball where I believe he is ranked 11th meaning in a 12 team league he is a #1 Rb. Thats when it was ridiculous.

I agree that if Wells is dropping that far he is a pretty good value, and a better value than Hightower in the 10th or 11th. Antsports ADP right now is Beanie at 5.05 and Hightower at 10.01.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

If you're looking for a below average running back splitting time in a below average situation, then Hightower is your guy.

Hightower is good at pass blocking, and that is absolutely it. He's not a special receiver, and he's not special in short yardage. These are myths, and have been debunked numerous times.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Also, Beanie is not a great receiver and Hightower was 2nd only to Ray Rice last year for receptions by a RB. In PPR leagues, Hightower is a bargain at his ADP.Hightower may not outscore Beanie in FF points this year (but I do think he outscores Beanie in PPR leagues).

Hightower also led all RBs in dropped passes last season and was well below average with the ball in his hands after the catch. I agree that he is excellent in pass protection, but I think that he is average at best as a receiver. His large receiving numbers last season were the result of a number of factors independent of Hightower's actual receiving ability (poor tackle play, WR injuries, Warner hip injury/loss of deep accuracy, lack of confidence in pass protection abilities of all other RBs on the roster). The coaching staff seemed to recognize this, pulling Hightower off the field in empty-backfield formations in favor of LaRod Stephens-Howling (as well as subbing in LSH or Jason Wright for Hightower on many passing plays with the RB as the primary receiver). While he'll still be a factor in the passing game, I don't believe that Hightower's snaps on passing downs are as safe as many seem to assume, especially if the coaching staff is looking for a more dynamic threat out of backfield (an example would be Adrian Peterson eating into Chester Taylor's passing down snaps last season despite Taylor's edge in pass-protection ability).

Many people look at receptions and think "THT must be a great receiver and Wells not" - when in fact if you look at catch %, the opposite is true. Granted, it's a small sample size for Wells, but he was top 20 in RBs in catch%/targets. It comes down to usage. If the OP (and most other people) can see that Wells is a superior talent to THT in virtually every aspect of the game, do you really think the coaches can't tell? Now some of it is the veteran vs. the younger guy thing - and some might be $$$ related. The fact is, they know who the better RB is - and it's only a matter of time before he starts getting more work, in all facets of the game, than Hightower.

12 receptions. That's what Beanie had last year. There is no way you can start drawing conclusions that he is a good receiver out of the backfield with that few catches. Hightower had 12 catches in one game last year.I do agree that there are many reasons why Hightower had so many receptions last year, but the point is that he had the VAST majority of receptions for Cardinals RBs last year. Here's the breakdown:Hightower: 63Beanie: 12Stephens-Howling: 10Wright: 9Kreider: 4Hightower had almost twice as many receptions as all the other RB's combined. I agree that Beanie will catch a few more balls this year, but to say that Hightower is not a good receiver is a bit naive, IMO. As you said in your response, don't you think the coaches can tell if he isn't a good receiver, and if he isn't good, why did they use him so much last year in that role?

Someone ran the numbers in another thread, but the conclusion came to something like Hightower doing the least with his targets of any RB in the league.Hightower gets a lot of receptions because he can pass block, which left him in on passing downs last year. He's nothing special as a receiver, and he's flat out bad as a runner after making the catch. It's not like Hightower was lining up in the slot and running seam/slant routes a la Steven Jackson. He was running 4 yards, turning around, catching the ball, and falling over, the same as any of us could do. The only special thing Hightower did as a receiver last year was happen to be the guy who was in the game when Warner decided to dump off a 4 yard hitch on 3rd and 12.

 

[Inspiration]

Also, Beanie is not a great receiver and Hightower was 2nd only to Ray Rice last year for receptions by a RB. In PPR leagues, Hightower is a bargain at his ADP.Hightower may not outscore Beanie in FF points this year (but I do think he outscores Beanie in PPR leagues).

Hightower also led all RBs in dropped passes last season and was well below average with the ball in his hands after the catch. I agree that he is excellent in pass protection, but I think that he is average at best as a receiver. His large receiving numbers last season were the result of a number of factors independent of Hightower's actual receiving ability (poor tackle play, WR injuries, Warner hip injury/loss of deep accuracy, lack of confidence in pass protection abilities of all other RBs on the roster). The coaching staff seemed to recognize this, pulling Hightower off the field in empty-backfield formations in favor of LaRod Stephens-Howling (as well as subbing in LSH or Jason Wright for Hightower on many passing plays with the RB as the primary receiver). While he'll still be a factor in the passing game, I don't believe that Hightower's snaps on passing downs are as safe as many seem to assume, especially if the coaching staff is looking for a more dynamic threat out of backfield (an example would be Adrian Peterson eating into Chester Taylor's passing down snaps last season despite Taylor's edge in pass-protection ability).

Many people look at receptions and think "THT must be a great receiver and Wells not" - when in fact if you look at catch %, the opposite is true. Granted, it's a small sample size for Wells, but he was top 20 in RBs in catch%/targets. It comes down to usage. If the OP (and most other people) can see that Wells is a superior talent to THT in virtually every aspect of the game, do you really think the coaches can't tell? Now some of it is the veteran vs. the younger guy thing - and some might be $$$ related. The fact is, they know who the better RB is - and it's only a matter of time before he starts getting more work, in all facets of the game, than Hightower.

12 receptions. That's what Beanie had last year. There is no way you can start drawing conclusions that he is a good receiver out of the backfield with that few catches. Hightower had 12 catches in one game last year.I do agree that there are many reasons why Hightower had so many receptions last year, but the point is that he had the VAST majority of receptions for Cardinals RBs last year. Here's the breakdown:Hightower: 63Beanie: 12Stephens-Howling: 10Wright: 9Kreider: 4Hightower had almost twice as many receptions as all the other RB's combined. I agree that Beanie will catch a few more balls this year, but to say that Hightower is not a good receiver is a bit naive, IMO. As you said in your response, don't you think the coaches can tell if he isn't a good receiver, and if he isn't good, why did they use him so much last year in that role?

The reason Hightower saw so many snaps in passing situations was because of his ability in pass protection (and the lack thereof for the two rookie backs). Hightower's lead in receptions was merely a product of number of passing down snaps that he received compared to the other RBs on the roster (and Arizona ultimately targeting their RBs more frequently than they had in previous years due to the reasons mentioned earlier).FWIW, Wells' sample size is much too small to begin trying to draw statistical conclusions about his performance in the passing game. Additionally, I'm not convinced that catch percentage is a reliable indicator of receiving ability for RBs (or any position for that matter).

 

[gianmarco]

Ahh, the short memories. Hightower was the "starter" every game last year (check Beanie's 0 games started). Yet, if you look at the 2nd half of the season and the carry distribution, Hightower was the starter only in name.

Hightower had single digit carries in 4 of the last 5 weeks of the year. Beanie had double digit carries in all but 3 games since week 6 and, more importantly in 4 of the last 5 games. As the year went on, the distribution CLEARLY shifted.

In other words, the Cardinals can name Hightower the "starter" all they want. Chris Wells is the guy that will touch the ball more and do more with those touches.

 

[kutta]

Ahh, the short memories. Hightower was the "starter" every game last year (check Beanie's 0 games started). Yet, if you look at the 2nd half of the season and the carry distribution, Hightower was the starter only in name. Hightower had single digit carries in 4 of the last 5 weeks of the year. Beanie had double digit carries in all but 3 games since week 6 and, more importantly in 4 of the last 5 games. As the year went on, the distribution CLEARLY shifted. In other words, the Cardinals can name Hightower the "starter" all they want. Chris Wells is the guy that will touch the ball more and do more with those touches.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.I am just saying that the disparity in their draft positions do not reflect what I think the disparity of their stats at year's end will be.

 

[gianmarco]

Ahh, the short memories. Hightower was the "starter" every game last year (check Beanie's 0 games started). Yet, if you look at the 2nd half of the season and the carry distribution, Hightower was the starter only in name. Hightower had single digit carries in 4 of the last 5 weeks of the year. Beanie had double digit carries in all but 3 games since week 6 and, more importantly in 4 of the last 5 games. As the year went on, the distribution CLEARLY shifted. In other words, the Cardinals can name Hightower the "starter" all they want. Chris Wells is the guy that will touch the ball more and do more with those touches.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.I am just saying that the disparity in their draft positions do not reflect what I think the disparity of their stats at year's end will be.

I think Hightower will be not much more than a bye week fill in. Those guys don't help you win. Sure, they are necessary, but they aren't guys I seek out. And I certainly don't put off drafting a top guy just because his backup counterpart is available later at greater value. I'm seeing a much larger disparity in their stats than you are.

 

[kutta]

Ahh, the short memories. Hightower was the "starter" every game last year (check Beanie's 0 games started). Yet, if you look at the 2nd half of the season and the carry distribution, Hightower was the starter only in name. Hightower had single digit carries in 4 of the last 5 weeks of the year. Beanie had double digit carries in all but 3 games since week 6 and, more importantly in 4 of the last 5 games. As the year went on, the distribution CLEARLY shifted. In other words, the Cardinals can name Hightower the "starter" all they want. Chris Wells is the guy that will touch the ball more and do more with those touches.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.I am just saying that the disparity in their draft positions do not reflect what I think the disparity of their stats at year's end will be.

I think Hightower will be not much more than a bye week fill in. Those guys don't help you win. Sure, they are necessary, but they aren't guys I seek out. And I certainly don't put off drafting a top guy just because his backup counterpart is available later at greater value. I'm seeing a much larger disparity in their stats than you are.

I don't see Beanie as a "top guy" this year. I would guess that in a PPR league their point disparity will be about 20 points.

 

[shakaka]

Now I heard it all... Hightower doesn't fumble.... lol

I should have been more clear. Hightower doesn't fumble in critical situations. Beanie coughs the ball up later in games and near the goal line. Hightower seems to fumble earlier in games and not so much later in games. I don't have stats for that, but that's my recollection.

Beanie did fumble early in the 4th against SF last year deep in his own territory and SF scored quickly. However, Hightower did the exact same thing in the 1st quarter of that game with the same result. Beanie's only other lost fumble was early in the year and in the 2nd Q after an 11yd run from the 41. The opponent then turned it back over to AZ, who then scored a TD.Three of Hightower's four lost fumbles resulted in TD drives for the opponent, the other was a punt.The whole fumbling thing is bunk.