"Believe women," Amber Heard and #metoo (1 Viewer)

[Ghost Rider]

For a while when the #metoo movement exploded, the thought process of many seemed to be that all women should be believed and that anyone accused of sexual harassment or abuse was guilty until proven innocent. 

How much damage has Heard done to the #metoo movement, if any? 

 

[squistion]

For a while when the #metoo movement exploded, the thought process of many seemed to be that all women should be believed and that anyone accused of sexual harassment or abuse was guilty until proven innocent. 

How much damage has Heard done to the #metoo movement, if any? 

That was the false characterization that the right made about the #metoo movement, but no one who was involved with the movement was actually saying that. 

 

[timschochet]

The me too movement was mainly about powerful men in positions of authority using their power to take advantage of women in their employ. That’s all changed now, and I don’t think we’re going backwards. 

 

[[scooter]]

The risk of any slogan is that someday your opponent will use its exception to undercut your entire movement.

 

[Ghost Rider]

The me too movement was mainly about powerful men in positions of authority using their power to take advantage of women in their employ. That’s all changed now, and I don’t think we’re going backwards. 

I largely agree.  I do think Heard is cautionary tale going forward that we should not leap to judgements the second an accusation is lobbed, but I suspect the reactionary mentality that many hold in 2022 will still rule the day, unfortunately. 

The risk of any slogan is that someday your opponent will use its exception to undercut your entire movement.

I agree, but do you think Heard has hurt the movement at all, if so, how much? 

 

[[scooter]]

The risk of any slogan is that someday your opponent will use its exception to undercut your entire movement.

I agree, but do you think Heard has hurt the movement at all, if so, how much? 

No. Come on, this isn't a GordonGekko thread.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I would say no, because I never took as literally as some with the "believe all women".  From my perspective it was more about honestly listening to all women and hearing them out more than we were historically, but not automatically believing them all.  

 

[Sand]

That was the false characterization that the right made about the #metoo movement, but no one who was involved with the movement was actually saying that. 

Except Mazie Hirono, of course.

 

[FairWarning]

The risk of any slogan is that someday your opponent will use its exception to undercut your entire movement.

Exactly

 

[FairWarning]

I would say no, because I never took as literally as some with the "believe all women".  From my perspective it was more about honestly listening to all women and hearing them out more than we were historically, but not automatically believing them all.  

Too many did though. It’s all about winning the court of popular opinion thru the media now.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Too many did though. It’s all about winning the court of popular opinion thru the media now.

Too many did what - believe all women no matter what? 

I mean you have a point about the court of popular opinion through the media.  The problem with that is it way to easy to focus on the extreme minority examples to prove your point since they get amplified way out of proportion.  

 

[FairWarning]

Too many did what - believe all women no matter what? 

I mean you have a point about the court of popular opinion through the media.  The problem with that is it way to easy to focus on the extreme minority examples to prove your point since they get amplified way out of proportion.  

Idk if they believe it but getting it out and it just may sway a potential jurors opinion.

 

[massraider]

The thought process of many was also that every single one of these women were in it for the money. 

 

[massraider]

Do we not believe any guys because of Matt Lauer? 

How much did Matt Lauer hurt the innocent till proven guilty movement

 

[FairWarning]

The thought process of many was also that every single one of these women were in it for the money. 

That also.  The only real winners in these cases are the lawyers.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I would say no, because I never took as literally as some with the "believe all women".  From my perspective it was more about honestly listening to all women and hearing them out more than we were historically, but not automatically believing them all.  

I believe that to be a very reasonable perspective. I would hope everyone could get on board with that. 

Too many did though. It’s all about winning the court of popular opinion thru the media now.

In some cases, yes, like the one that inspired the start of this thread.  Sadly for Ms. Heard, I don't think it matters in the inevitable appeal she will file if she gets anything overturned, as she has already lost in the court of public opinion so badly that I don't think there's anything she can do to change it.  

 

[Nugget]

Recap of the media circus

“Yesterday afternoon, a Virginia jury found Amber Heard liable for defaming her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. 

Officially, it was the conclusion of a six-week defamation trial between two relatively obscure celebrities. In reality, it was the culmination of the largest explosion of online misogyny since Gamergate — and a chilling vision of the future of the internet.”

 

[squistion]

Except Mazie Hirono, of course.

No. That is not true.

About Kavanaugh's accuser Hirono said: “I believe her” but she did not say “I believe all women” or "believe all women"

 

[massraider]

Recap of the media circus

“Yesterday afternoon, a Virginia jury found Amber Heard liable for defaming her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. 

Officially, it was the conclusion of a six-week defamation trial between two relatively obscure celebrities. In reality, it was the culmination of the largest explosion of online misogyny since Gamergate — and a chilling vision of the future of the internet.”

Brutal read. 

Good for Johnny, nice to know you can cheat on your mate with someone half your age, beat her, sexually assault her, and win the court of public opinion. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Recap of the media circus

“Yesterday afternoon, a Virginia jury found Amber Heard liable for defaming her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. 

Officially, it was the conclusion of a six-week defamation trial between two relatively obscure celebrities. In reality, it was the culmination of the largest explosion of online misogyny since Gamergate — and a chilling vision of the future of the internet.”

Johnny Depp is an obscure celebrity? 

I'm getting old. 

 

[Desert_Power]

Recap of the media circus

“Yesterday afternoon, a Virginia jury found Amber Heard liable for defaming her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. 

Officially, it was the conclusion of a six-week defamation trial between two relatively obscure celebrities. In reality, it was the culmination of the largest explosion of online misogyny since Gamergate — and a chilling vision of the future of the internet.”

Wow

 

[Whyatt]

Recap of the media circus

“Yesterday afternoon, a Virginia jury found Amber Heard liable for defaming her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. 

Officially, it was the conclusion of a six-week defamation trial between two relatively obscure celebrities. In reality, it was the culmination of the largest explosion of online misogyny since Gamergate — and a chilling vision of the future of the internet.”

What happened outside the courtroom should be viewed completely separately than what happened in it.

Are you suggesting that the trial outcome was unfair? IMO, that perspective will truly hurt #metoo.

 

[BladeRunner]

Recap of the media circus

“Yesterday afternoon, a Virginia jury found Amber Heard liable for defaming her ex-husband, Johnny Depp. 

Officially, it was the conclusion of a six-week defamation trial between two relatively obscure celebrities. In reality, it was the culmination of the largest explosion of online misogyny since Gamergate — and a chilling vision of the future of the internet.”

Ahhh...no.  What a bunch of horse-####.

You know the article is FOS when it says Johnny Depp is a relatively obscure celebrity.

 

[Whyatt]

I had not followed this trial at all, just the headlines.  
 

The other night I watched this Cross examination  

 

[ekbeats]

No. That is not true.

About Kavanaugh's accuser Hirono said: “I believe her” but she did not say “I believe all women” or "believe all women"

“Not only do women like Dr. Ford, who bravely comes forward, need to be heard, but they need to be believed. They need to be believed.”

 

[BladeRunner]

Turns out women lie just as much as men do.

Also turns out that this is actually news to some people.

 

[massraider]

“Not only do women like Dr. Ford, who bravely comes forward, need to be heard, but they need to be believed. They need to be believed.”

So, not all women. Thanks. 

 

[timschochet]

“Not only do women like Dr. Ford, who bravely comes forward, need to be heard, but they need to be believed. They need to be believed.”

And I did. Still do. 

 

[Sand]

No. That is not true.

About Kavanaugh's accuser Hirono said: “I believe her” but she did not say “I believe all women” or "believe all women"

Ahem...

Hirono made some truly remarkable statements last week. “Not only do women like Dr. Ford, who bravely comes forward, need to be heard, but they need to be believed,” she insisted. She added, “I just want to say to the men in this country: Just shut up and step up. Do the right thing for a change.”

 

[BladeRunner]

Ahem...

Hirono made some truly remarkable statements last week. “Not only do women like Dr. Ford, who bravely comes forward, need to be heard, but they need to be believed,” she insisted. She added, “I just want to say to the men in this country: Just shut up and step up. Do the right thing for a change.”

The funny thing about this is they think we're making it up. 

 

[Sand]

The funny thing about this is they think we're making it up. 

What I find amazing is that you can find the second part of that video up, but the first part has been largely memory holed.  I can't find the video anywhere.  I saw it live, though, so I know that she said those exact words.

CNN has the same quote, so corroborated.

 

[Sand]

Johnny Depp is an obscure celebrity? 

Tom Cruise is up and coming.

 

[timschochet]

The funny thing about this is they think we're making it up. 

Actually, the sad thing about this is that you thought Ford was making it up. 

 

[BladeRunner]

Actually, the sad thing about this is that you thought Ford was making it up. 

We'll never know since she had ZERO evidence besides tears.  Even those closest to her couldnt corroberate her story.

She was not convincing in the least.

 

[timschochet]

What I find amazing is that you can find the second part of that video up, but the first part has been largely memory holed.  I can't find the video anywhere.  I saw it live, though, so I know that she said those exact words.

CNN has the same quote, so corroborated.

She was right to say it. Hirono didn’t say every woman at all times need to be believed; she said women like Dr. Ford needed to be believed, because it’s a very brave thing to step forward and testify in front of millions of people and be willing to have your life scrutinized, torn apart (which it was.) Her life will never be the same again, and the treatment she received was terrible. 
Hirono’s point, that women like Ford should be believed, was a legitimate argument that I agreed with then and now. 

 

[squistion]

So, not all women. Thanks. 

 

 

[Sand]

Actually, the sad thing about this is that you thought Ford was making it up. 

This has always left me conflicted - she spoke convincingly, but what she had, ultimately, wasn't even close to winning in a civil court (preponderance of the evidence).  

 

[timschochet]

We'll never know since she had ZERO evidence besides tears.  Even those closest to her couldnt corroberate her story.

She was not convincing in the least.

She had the evidence of her testimony and the fact that she was allowing her entire future to be dragged in the mud. I don’t agree with you about how convincing she was, but that’s a subjective thing. What I DO know is that the Republican senators on the committee were too scared to ask her direct questions, so maybe they found her more convincing than you did. That was a total embarrassment for them. 

 

[Summer Wheat]

No. That is not true.

About Kavanaugh's accuser Hirono said: “I believe her” but she did not say “I believe all women” or "believe all women"

Tara Reade`s claim that Joe Biden penetrated her with his finger when she was his aid was dismissed. Maybe because he was the Dem nominee.  Had she made that claim before he ran it might have had different results.

 

[timschochet]

This has always left me conflicted - she spoke convincingly, but what she had, ultimately, wasn't even close to winning in a civil court (preponderance of the evidence).  

First off, I agree that she spoke convincingly and disagree with @BladeRunner. 
Second, the question wasn’t whether she would win in a civil court, it was whether or not Brett Kavanaugh was suitable for the Supreme Court. I don’t think he was. I think the Senate should have rejected him. It wouldn’t have made a huge difference because Trump simply would have nominated someone else who would have been just as conservative- but it shouldn’t have been Kavanaugh. 

 

[BladeRunner]

She had the evidence of her testimony and the fact that she was allowing her entire future to be dragged in the mud. I don’t agree with you about how convincing she was, but that’s a subjective thing. What I DO know is that the Republican senators on the committee were too scared to ask her direct questions, so maybe they found her more convincing than you did. That was a total embarrassment for them. 

You need proof.  She didnt have a single iota of it.  Its as simple as that.

 

[Sand]

Second, the question wasn’t whether she would win in a civil court, it was whether or not Brett Kavanaugh was suitable for the Supreme Court.

There has to be some reasonable standard for destroying someone's life work.  She wasn't even close to getting there.  

 

[timschochet]

You need proof.  She didnt have a single iota of it.  Its as simple as that.

In accusations of sexual assault, there are often instances where all we have is the testimony of the woman assaulted. It’s never simple. 

 

[BladeRunner]

In accusations of sexual assault, there are often instances where all we have is the testimony of the woman assaulted. It’s never simple. 

You still meed proof.  Thats how this works.

Unless you think we should move to theNorth Korean style of justice?  Communist Russia?

 

[timschochet]

There has to be some reasonable standard for destroying someone's life work.  She wasn't even close to getting there.  

Well we disagree. I think sexual assault is a reasonable standard for destroying someone’s life work. That’s what she accused him of, credibly and convincingly, IMO. 

 

[timschochet]

You still meed proof.  Thats how this works.

Unless you think we should move to theNorth Korean style of justice?  Communist Russia?

Do you understand this wasn’t in a court of law? And that Kavanaugh wasn’t looking at imprisonment? 

 

[BladeRunner]

Well we disagree. I think sexual assault is a reasonable standard for destroying someone’s life work. That’s what she accused him of, credibly and convincingly, IMO. 

No.  She didnt.  Not even close.

We know how it works on the left:  you only believe the accuser if yhey share the same views.

 

[BladeRunner]

Do you understand this wasn’t in a court of law? And that Kavanaugh wasn’t looking at imprisonment? 

IT DOESN'T MATTER!

YOU HAVE TO HAVE PROOF!

 

[timschochet]

No.  She didnt.  Not even close.

We know how it works on the left:  you only believe the accuser if yhey share the same views.

Please stop telling me why I believe people. I told you I found her compelling. Her political views (which I am unaware of) didn’t play a part in it. Don’t question my integrity and I won’t question yours. TIA

 

[ekbeats]

The funny thing about this is they think we're making it up. 

Yeah I'm not sure how anyone can spin that with the plurals "women" and "they".  She clearly wasn't just referring to Dr. Ford there.  The worst part about Hirono's "belief" is that it came before the investigation took place.