Ben Roethlisberger (1 Viewer)

[Evilgrin 72]

He makes some awful mistakes but he also makes plays no other QB would be able to make (insert Brady or Manning(s) or Rivers or Brees here cause they can't shake DL's and LB's off them like this guy, they can't).

They don't have to. Brady and Manning, in particular, will sidestep the rush to buy more time, and/or get the pass off before the rush gets there in the first place. They also make fewer "awful mistakes."

That's very true (and I also think both of those guys are better than Ben lest anyone read anything into this.) However, neither can perform in the face of a hellacious pass rush the way Ben can, they just face it less often. Both Brady and Manning, if you can get a lot of pressure on them from the front 4, can be taken out of their games (see SB 42 or the Pit/Indy AFC divisional game in '05) - Ben is a lot harder to beat with pass rush because of his ability to keep the ball alive and make plays downfield. Of course, the mistakes he makes are the other side of that, so it's a matter of taking the good with the bad.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I hated every QB they had between Bradshaw and Roethlisberger and they were ALL Steelers.

With all due respect, I think to some extent, this clouds the judgment of Steelers fans a bit.I have a friend who dated nothing but ugly girls & fat chicks growing up. Not surprisingly, he ended up marrying the first reasonably attractive un-obese girl who showed the slightest hint of interest in him during college. She's maybe a 6, but in his eyes, she's a 10.So there you go.

I don't doubt there's some truth in what you're saying, but nevertheless, the guy wins games and that's really all I care about.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Jman, please don't circumvent the language filter. TIA.

Also, I think CrossEyed wants to know if you're still bitter after 4 years. I'm not sure - but I think he REALLY wants to know.

 

[treat88]

I think a lot of the criticisms of Roethlisberger are fair. Some are just silly people making biased arguments.

I also think that it's awfully tough for any stats to ever be considered an apples to apples comparison in a team sport that is as highly interdependent as football is. That argument can always be made to invalidate whatever stat is in question.

As a football fan first and a Steelers fan second I will say that there isn't a QB in the game that I would rather have running this particular Steeler team at this stage of their career than Roethlisberger.

It probably comes across as homeristic, but honestly with as little bias as possible involved, I wouldn't trade Ben for any QB in the game. (NFL not FF)

I know several others likely feel that way about "their" guy as well and that's cool.

Fact is there can be several very good QB's, all with individual strengths and weaknesses, and none can be factually proven to be better than another.

It all comes down to personal preference, and I am happy that the team I root for happens to have the QB that I think gives it the best possible chance to win a SB every season, now and for the foreseeable future.

 

[Titus Pullo]

the status of being elite is earned over the course of more than 6 games. ben is having a great year but he hasn't done it long enough to be elite.

 

[fred_1_15301]

the status of being elite is earned over the course of more than 6 games. ben is having a great year but he hasn't done it long enough to be elite.

Nobody is basing his "elite/non-elite" status on just these 6 games. People are basing their decision on his career to date.

 

[Titus Pullo]

the status of being elite is earned over the course of more than 6 games. ben is having a great year but he hasn't done it long enough to be elite.

Nobody is basing his "elite/non-elite" status on just these 6 games. People are basing their decision on his career to date.

then it's easy. not elite.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think a lot of the criticisms of Roethlisberger are fair. Some are just silly people making biased arguments.



I also think that it's awfully tough for any stats to ever be considered an apples to apples comparison in a team sport that is as highly interdependent as football is. That argument can always be made to invalidate whatever stat is in question.

As a football fan first and a Steelers fan second I will say that there isn't a QB in the game that I would rather have running this particular Steeler team at this stage of their career than Roethlisberger.

It probably comes across as homeristic, but honestly with as little bias as possible involved, I wouldn't trade Ben for any QB in the game. (NFL not FF)

I know several others likely feel that way about "their" guy as well and that's cool.

Fact is there can be several very good QB's, all with individual strengths and weaknesses, and none can be factually proven to be better than another.

It all comes down to personal preference, and I am happy that the team I root for happens to have the QB that I think gives it the best possible chance to win a SB every season, now and for the foreseeable future.

Agreed. But all of that is triply true for win/loss records.

 

[Chase Stuart]

This illustrates my only real point here... for years I've been pimping this guy and the detractors routinely pointed to the low number of attempts as a major influence on his high comp% and YPA stats. I continually argued that he came from a "fun 'n' gun" type offense in college and was equipped to play that kind of game, and surmised that his stats wouldn't suffer nearly as precipitous a drop with increased attempts as many claimed. Finally, this season is bearing that out.

Here's the thing -- at one point, you were right. I was arguing with you that Roethlisberger was one of the most underrated QBs in the NFL. I said the Steelers were one of the most underrated teams. But then something funny happened -- Ben's numbers took a big nosedive.My favorite stat to judge QB performance is Adjusted Net Yards per Attempt, and to make things clear, we can use ANY/Ai, which measures a QB's ANY/A relative to the league average. So 100 is average.

As a 22-year-old rookie, Roethlisberger had a ANY/A index of 119, or 19% better than average. Talk about amazing; on guys with 150+ attempts that were 24 or younger (i.e., real rookies who played a good amount as rookies), only the great Dan Marino and Greg Cook were better (131 and 127, respectively). As good as Matt Ryan was last year, he was "only" at 114. Only one other QB even topped 100 as a young rookie -- Doug Williams at 104. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/Y6dQk

So after his rookie season, Roethlisberger was looking like he might wind up being an all-time great. How did he follow it up? He had an ANY/Ai of 124 the next season! Once again, wow. Only Dan Marino and Daunte Culpepper (who didn't play as rookie but was lights out as a sophomore) had higher ANY/Ai ratings after two years in the league, minimum 400 passes, age 25 or younger. Behind Ben was Boomer Esiason, another excellent QB. It certainly looked like -- regardless of what people said about his low number of attempts -- that Ben was a superstar QB. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/MgqNm

Then what happened? He had his motorcycle accident, and after posting ANY/Ai ratings of 119 and 124 his first two seasons, he posted a 94 (i.e., below average) his third year. Whoa. That's not supposed to happen. The next year, he rebounded a bit, posting a 113, meaning he was 13% above average. Then in '08, he dropped down against to 95.

So after being 19% and 24% above league average in the most important metric out there, he was 6% below average, 13% above average and then 5% below average. In other words, the past three seasons, he's been an average QB.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again. But at this point, he's way too inconsistent to be labeled as elite IMO. It's got nothing to do with hating Ben, or looking at "fantasy football numbers" or ignoring his low gross passing totals. And yes, his career averages are still solid thanks to two elite seasons in the beginning of his career. But he was just average from '06 to '08 -- call them the motorcycle years if you want to give him an excuse -- and I'll need to see more than six good games against bad defenses in '09 to bump him back up to the elite level.

 

[treat88]

I think a lot of the criticisms of Roethlisberger are fair. Some are just silly people making biased arguments.



I also think that it's awfully tough for any stats to ever be considered an apples to apples comparison in a team sport that is as highly interdependent as football is. That argument can always be made to invalidate whatever stat is in question.

As a football fan first and a Steelers fan second I will say that there isn't a QB in the game that I would rather have running this particular Steeler team at this stage of their career than Roethlisberger.

It probably comes across as homeristic, but honestly with as little bias as possible involved, I wouldn't trade Ben for any QB in the game. (NFL not FF)

I know several others likely feel that way about "their" guy as well and that's cool.

Fact is there can be several very good QB's, all with individual strengths and weaknesses, and none can be factually proven to be better than another.

It all comes down to personal preference, and I am happy that the team I root for happens to have the QB that I think gives it the best possible chance to win a SB every season, now and for the foreseeable future.

Agreed. But all of that is triply true for win/loss records.

Also agreed. Too many variables besides QB play affect the outcome of the game to look to that as a defining measure.It's a part of the equation, but only a small part.

 

[treat88]

This illustrates my only real point here... for years I've been pimping this guy and the detractors routinely pointed to the low number of attempts as a major influence on his high comp% and YPA stats. I continually argued that he came from a "fun 'n' gun" type offense in college and was equipped to play that kind of game, and surmised that his stats wouldn't suffer nearly as precipitous a drop with increased attempts as many claimed. Finally, this season is bearing that out.

Here's the thing -- at one point, you were right. I was arguing with you that Roethlisberger was one of the most underrated QBs in the NFL. I said the Steelers were one of the most underrated teams. But then something funny happened -- Ben's numbers took a big nosedive.My favorite stat to judge QB performance is Adjusted Net Yards per Attempt, and to make things clear, we can use ANY/Ai, which measures a QB's ANY/A relative to the league average. So 100 is average.

As a 22-year-old rookie, Roethlisberger had a ANY/A index of 119, or 19% better than average. Talk about amazing; on guys with 150+ attempts that were 24 or younger (i.e., real rookies who played a good amount as rookies), only the great Dan Marino and Greg Cook were better (131 and 127, respectively). As good as Matt Ryan was last year, he was "only" at 114. Only one other QB even topped 100 as a young rookie -- Doug Williams at 104. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/Y6dQk

So after his rookie season, Roethlisberger was looking like he might wind up being an all-time great. How did he follow it up? He had an ANY/Ai of 124 the next season! Once again, wow. Only Dan Marino and Daunte Culpepper (who didn't play as rookie but was lights out as a sophomore) had higher ANY/Ai ratings after two years in the league, minimum 400 passes, age 25 or younger. Behind Ben was Boomer Esiason, another excellent QB. It certainly looked like -- regardless of what people said about his low number of attempts -- that Ben was a superstar QB. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/MgqNm

Then what happened? He had his motorcycle accident, and after posting ANY/Ai ratings of 119 and 124 his first two seasons, he posted a 94 (i.e., below average) his third year. Whoa. That's not supposed to happen. The next year, he rebounded a bit, posting a 113, meaning he was 13% above average. Then in '08, he dropped down against to 95.

So after being 19% and 24% above league average in the most important metric out there, he was 6% below average, 13% above average and then 5% below average. In other words, the past three seasons, he's been an average QB.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again. But at this point, he's way too inconsistent to be labeled as elite IMO. It's got nothing to do with hating Ben, or looking at "fantasy football numbers" or ignoring his low gross passing totals. And yes, his career averages are still solid thanks to two elite seasons in the beginning of his career. But he was just average from '06 to '08 -- call them the motorcycle years if you want to give him an excuse -- and I'll need to see more than six good games against bad defenses in '09 to bump him back up to the elite level.

Is it fair to say that health plays a critical role in a players performance?I think it has to be noted that both year's Roeth was below average he was dealing with a significant injury. The broken head and a seriously damaged shoulder respectively.

I don't know how other QB's in the discussion have compared in injury burdened seasons, so maybe he performed worse due to those injuries than may be expected, but it's not unreasonable to look to those factors as explanations for the below average performances.

To me this simply says that when healthy, Roeth has performed significantly better than the average QB with some very rarified performance mixed in.

 

[CrossEyed]

Jman, please don't circumvent the language filter. TIA.

Also, I think CrossEyed wants to know if you're still bitter after 4 years. I'm not sure - but I think he REALLY wants to know.

I have no idea how that happened.

 

[Bojang0301]

He makes some awful mistakes but he also makes plays no other QB would be able to make (insert Brady or Manning(s) or Rivers or Brees here cause they can't shake DL's and LB's off them like this guy, they can't).

They don't have to. Brady and Manning, in particular, will sidestep the rush to buy more time, and/or get the pass off before the rush gets there in the first place. They also make fewer "awful mistakes."

Brady, and infact, no QB is close to the level of Peyton Manning.

 

[fred_1_15301]

He makes some awful mistakes but he also makes plays no other QB would be able to make (insert Brady or Manning(s) or Rivers or Brees here cause they can't shake DL's and LB's off them like this guy, they can't).

They don't have to. Brady and Manning, in particular, will sidestep the rush to buy more time, and/or get the pass off before the rush gets there in the first place. They also make fewer "awful mistakes."

Brady, and infact, no QB is close to the level of Peyton Manning.

I agree. People keep putting Brady, Manning and Brees in the same tier. I really believe Manning is in his own tier at this point. He's that great.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I was under the impression we were talking about Roethlisberger now, not his career.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again.

[/thread]

 

[Copeman]

I was under the impression we were talking about Roethlisberger now, not his career.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again.

[/thread]

:(

 

[Chase Stuart]

I was under the impression we were talking about Roethlisberger now, not his career.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again.

[/thread]

Kyle Orton - 119.

 

[Copeman]

I was under the impression we were talking about Roethlisberger now, not his career.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again.

[/thread]

b...b....but....b...but...b...b....but.....

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I was under the impression we were talking about Roethlisberger now, not his career.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again.

[/thread]

Kyle Orton - 119.

I was just trying to make teh funny before. Seriously, though - from the numbers you posted it looks to me like when Ben is healthy, he's way above average and when he isn't, he's a little below average. The kicker is.. he's just now entering his prime and it's corresponding with having the ability for essentially the first time in his career to show what he can do when he's turned loose. I think going forward you're going to see a lot more gaudy numbers and really very little of what he showed in his two injury-plagued seasons. Nevertheless, I don't evaluate him on numbers. I watch every snap of every game and I evaluate his performance based on how many big plays he makes that keep drives alive and/or put points on the board vs. how many mistakes he makes that costs the Steelers the opportunity to put up more points. That ratio is VERY high. I watch games across the league every week and there are only a handful of QBs I see that can perform at that level, and few that do it week in and week out.And sooner or later, people are going to realize that Kyle Orton is a pretty damned good football player.

 

[Adebisi]

He makes some awful mistakes but he also makes plays no other QB would be able to make (insert Brady or Manning(s) or Rivers or Brees here cause they can't shake DL's and LB's off them like this guy, they can't).

They don't have to. Brady and Manning, in particular, will sidestep the rush to buy more time, and/or get the pass off before the rush gets there in the first place. They also make fewer "awful mistakes."

Brady, and infact, no QB is close to the level of Peyton Manning.

If you say so.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

This illustrates my only real point here... for years I've been pimping this guy and the detractors routinely pointed to the low number of attempts as a major influence on his high comp% and YPA stats. I continually argued that he came from a "fun 'n' gun" type offense in college and was equipped to play that kind of game, and surmised that his stats wouldn't suffer nearly as precipitous a drop with increased attempts as many claimed. Finally, this season is bearing that out.

Here's the thing -- at one point, you were right. I was arguing with you that Roethlisberger was one of the most underrated QBs in the NFL. I said the Steelers were one of the most underrated teams. But then something funny happened -- Ben's numbers took a big nosedive.My favorite stat to judge QB performance is Adjusted Net Yards per Attempt, and to make things clear, we can use ANY/Ai, which measures a QB's ANY/A relative to the league average. So 100 is average.

As a 22-year-old rookie, Roethlisberger had a ANY/A index of 119, or 19% better than average. Talk about amazing; on guys with 150+ attempts that were 24 or younger (i.e., real rookies who played a good amount as rookies), only the great Dan Marino and Greg Cook were better (131 and 127, respectively). As good as Matt Ryan was last year, he was "only" at 114. Only one other QB even topped 100 as a young rookie -- Doug Williams at 104. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/Y6dQk

So after his rookie season, Roethlisberger was looking like he might wind up being an all-time great. How did he follow it up? He had an ANY/Ai of 124 the next season! Once again, wow. Only Dan Marino and Daunte Culpepper (who didn't play as rookie but was lights out as a sophomore) had higher ANY/Ai ratings after two years in the league, minimum 400 passes, age 25 or younger. Behind Ben was Boomer Esiason, another excellent QB. It certainly looked like -- regardless of what people said about his low number of attempts -- that Ben was a superstar QB. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/MgqNm

Then what happened? He had his motorcycle accident, and after posting ANY/Ai ratings of 119 and 124 his first two seasons, he posted a 94 (i.e., below average) his third year. Whoa. That's not supposed to happen. The next year, he rebounded a bit, posting a 113, meaning he was 13% above average. Then in '08, he dropped down against to 95.

So after being 19% and 24% above league average in the most important metric out there, he was 6% below average, 13% above average and then 5% below average. In other words, the past three seasons, he's been an average QB.

Now this year he's up at 119, so he's obviously playing at an elite level again. But at this point, he's way too inconsistent to be labeled as elite IMO. It's got nothing to do with hating Ben, or looking at "fantasy football numbers" or ignoring his low gross passing totals. And yes, his career averages are still solid thanks to two elite seasons in the beginning of his career. But he was just average from '06 to '08 -- call them the motorcycle years if you want to give him an excuse -- and I'll need to see more than six good games against bad defenses in '09 to bump him back up to the elite level.

Now this is interesting. I've been an avid STATS Inc guy for years and never seen the ANY/Ai stat. So I went to the source at pro-football-reference...here it is:ANY/A - adjusted net yards per passing attempt: (pass yards + 20*(pass TD) - 45*(interceptions thrown) - sack yards)/(passing attempts + sacks). See AY/A. Note that we are now using 20 yards per TD instead of 10, because of research by Chase Stuart at the p-f-r blog.

Stu with all due respect you seem to be saying that wins, losses, and other real stats that real football people look at like completion %, YPA, TD/INT ratio, 3rd down conversions, etc. or any of the other 52 measurable stats found here are less relevant than a formula you've come up with on your own. That's a tough sell.

 

[Judge Smails]

He's a winner and a true leader. That starts the definition of an elite QB for me. He's proven that when he gets at least some protection he can make game changing plays. I still don't think he's anywhere close to a Peyton Manning in terms of execution, but he may be even better with other intangibles. I think lots of NFL owners would love to build their team around a Ben Roethlisberger..

 

[ptsteelers]

Not saying Brady or Manning are not deserving of the top spots on the "elite board" and I am not trying to slam the Pitt O-line (but I guess I'm about to ), but if you took Brady and put him under center, behind the Steelers O-line, would he be as effective as Ben? What about Manning in the same situation? I Just don't think they would be as "good" as often

Now put Ben behind their lines. Would their teams suffer? I don't see it.

Yes, I know, conjecture and opinion, but isn't it all?



Manning is elite, Brady is elite, Ben is elite.

Go ahead, slam away.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Can we discuss his schedule moving forward? Thinking of trading for him.

I mean, does he keep it up?

Anything to say about winter condition in Pitssburgh, and do they really stick with the emphasis on the pass, or do they turn back to thr ush at any point?

Here's what he has left:

9 11/09/09 8:30pm @DEN - - - - - Tough

10 11/15/09 1:00pm CIN - - - - -

11 11/22/09 1:00pm @KC - - - - - Great

12 11/29/09 8:20pm @BAL - - - - -

13 12/06/09 1:00pm OAK - - - - - Possibly Great

14 12/10/09 8:20pm @CLE - - - - - Great

15 12/20/09 1:00pm GB - - - - -

16 12/27/09 1:00pm BAL - - - - -

(17 01/03/10 1:00pm @MIA)

Considering vs. Rovers and Orton, but maybe we should be talking about Manning and Brady here, right? Especially considering Manning might be sitting some of weeks 15-16.

 

[Bojang0301]

Not saying Brady or Manning are not deserving of the top spots on the "elite board" and I am not trying to slam the Pitt O-line (but I guess I'm about to ), but if you took Brady and put him under center, behind the Steelers O-line, would he be as effective as Ben? What about Manning in the same situation? I Just don't think they would be as "good" as oftenNow put Ben behind their lines. Would their teams suffer? I don't see it.Yes, I know, conjecture and opinion, but isn't it all? Manning is elite, Brady is elite, Ben is elite. Go ahead, slam away.

Don't worry this whole thread is conjecture and opinion... whether there be stats involved or not.

 

[Bojang0301]

He makes some awful mistakes but he also makes plays no other QB would be able to make (insert Brady or Manning(s) or Rivers or Brees here cause they can't shake DL's and LB's off them like this guy, they can't).

They don't have to. Brady and Manning, in particular, will sidestep the rush to buy more time, and/or get the pass off before the rush gets there in the first place. They also make fewer "awful mistakes."

Brady, and infact, no QB is close to the level of Peyton Manning.

If you say so.

I know it's almost as rediculous as pulling two sentences out of someone's entire message and then arguing against them when they weren't arguing in the first place. :shrugs:

 

[Routilla]

What Big Ben lacks in traditional talent he more than makes up for in physical prowess. I won a title with him 2 years ago so I am a little biased. I don't like the Steelers so I want to think he's just been the recipient of a great defense to give him extra chances every game. The reality is that he is a tough SOB and you have to give him credit for that if nothing else. I think of Big Ben in the context of "the last man standing" and he usually is.